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how does she feel Hex 18 unchanged

curious1

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I am new to using IChing. I usually ask what I need to know and understand, but did something that confused me today.

I am married to a same sex partner. Our relationship has been unstable for a while. My head says to keep my distance. My heart loves her and misses her. I asked the question: How does my partner really feel about me? I got hex 18 unchanged and now struggle to apply it to the other person. I know that she has childhood traumas to fix, but not sure if I am putting it on her, or if it belongs to me ???
 

mryou1

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I've often heard, and experienced myself ,that the I Ching isn't exactly a "mind reader". It can't tell you what other people are thinking. But it can comment on the situation and its changes. And the answer here seems very apt:

18. Decay or Work on What has Been Spoiled

The situation is not all lost, provided that you work slowly and productively toward bettering your relationship. And this especially speaks of the fact that in order to fix something, you must first objectively (don't get too emotional, or think that it's somehow "all your fault") understand how it is "broken". Don't expect sudden changes, but don't become dismayed.
 

curious1

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I am extremely gratefull for your response because I feel lost and disconnected at the moment. We've become so polarised that I almost cannot imagine us to be able to fix things.

I asked the question "what needs to be done to fix this" and I got 59.5.6 to 7.
On the question When can I expect this to come together again, I get 62.3.4.5 to 8.
I am really struggling with this and don't want to rely on myself only to interpret these.
 

Trojina

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I am extremely gratefull for your response because I feel lost and disconnected at the moment. We've become so polarised that I almost cannot imagine us to be able to fix things.

I asked the question "what needs to be done to fix this" and I got 59.5.6 to 7.
On the question When can I expect this to come together again, I get 62.3.4.5 to 8.
I am really struggling with this and don't want to rely on myself only to interpret these.
Unless its a very new and fragile relationship then being in so much doubt about how an intimate feels about you is not a good sign. If they care for you why aren't they reassuring you ?

I wondered if you had seen this http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=12642 it may hep in formulating relationship questions.

I think your above question are based too much on the assumption it is something that is yours to 'fix'. However if you do want to go along the 'fix it' route then it seems you really need to come out with all your feelings, to say whats on your mind, to make a declaration. That is 59.5 asks you to offer up all that you have...lay it on the table. However having done this the actual result could go either way as I see 59.6 could mean a) all your fears disperse by expressing yourself OR b) her response shows you she is actually causing you pain, shes hurting you and you are better off leaving her far behind.

Either way i think you have to take the plunge and put yourself out of your misery.

While 18 is about fixing things that have deteriorated I also feel that unchanging it can be a simple statement that infact things have gone stale....and that may not be reversible. But you have to try and see...be very open to her, show your feelings , put yourself on the line (59.5) then see what happens (59.6)


Re the 62.3.4.5>8 try to bring yourself down to the here and now, Don't imagine you can fix how things will be in the future. 62.3 shows you in danger of adhering to some kind of principle that undermines you. 62.4 calls for realism and 62.5 I think may show some gain . Its not hard to catch 'prey' ie her because its already cornered...and it may be that actually you are her best bet right now ? Not very romantic i know but nevertheless .....very good relationships are founded on necessity, proximity, need, and not so many probably on all the fluffy stuff we see in movies.

Make a move ....that is what i see you are being advised to do. don't worry about it...be like the king in 59.5. I see a link in meaning between 59.5 and 62.5. I think in both you are in a sense disadvantaged. The King has to empty his granaries to placate the people or get their support...in 62.5 the prey can't get away from the hunter if it is trapped in the cave so if he captures it its hardly an achievment ! You feel disadvantaged and unheroic but actually may sort of already have secured her as your own...or maybe will have if only you will speak out.

Having said that there is danger here...but I think its a risk you have to take to move forward in any direction


I think you need to findout how much her heart is in this and for that you do need ot be brave enough to make a statement to her about how you feel and what you want
 
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Trojina

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Just to add I think 59.5 can signify the 'grand gesture' in romance...a sort of all or nothing feel to it.

It reminds me for example of someone laying on a extravagent romantic treat...like a weekend away or a special dinner...or something....or rose petals scattered all the way to the bed :rofl: use your imagination. Now these gestures can either go badly wrong...and at least you know you did all you could OR they show the other how much you love them and they enjoy being wooed and its all lovely......

while such a gesture may seem opposing the realism asked in 62, I think you can get in touch with whats real via a very open gesture. Try not to assume too much or be too sure this is right for you though.


If this all leaves you with alot of pain 59.6 may be saying for you to shrug, say you you gave it the best you had (59.5) and move on out of all that suffering (59.6) ETA hex 7 is relating hex here and i have to say i don't feel hex 7 bodes that well in relationship issues since its often less about natural affinity and more about strategy. Maybe leave strategy to one side now and just let it all hang out



Good Luck


ps lets not forget the hex 8 as relating hexagram ....this also asks one to make a clear commitment about who to belong with
 
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curious1

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Hi Trojan,
I am hugely honored for the time you took to write a lengthy explanation. I’ve read many of your other responses and found it fabulous.

Most of what you say here, resonate 100% accurately. It is not a new or fragile relationship. We’ve been together for 7 years, married for little over 2. We are also older @ 45+

I read the relationship link you sent. I asked what attitude I should have towards my marriage and received Hex 2 unchanged. Still unpacking it. (I am getting good at this, but it takes a while :) ) This line in LiSe’s HEX 2 connects …. The noble one proceeds probing. As pioneer he meets with confusion, in the rear he finds a master. I believe I will.

I do have a tendency to “fix” everything and often feel the outcome will be better if I do more/better. I am actively changing this at the moment. I was the older, committed partner. I have often and consistently (daily) told and shown my wife that I love her deeply. We had a rocky relationship and I have at previous occasions done the big love declarations and will consider your suggestion, although this does not feel like a fit. I think you are right – it may not be right for me. Maybe this very piece is my “big declaration”.

In terms of reality, (realism asked in 62) we are like chalk and cheese. I come from a huge, loud, well educated, wealthy, supportive family with some average hiccups. I have young adult daughters who are courageous, self-supporting, impressive women. My partner comes from small, highly dysfunctional family with no extended family. Mom is a functioning alcoholic with an exaggerated sense of entitlement and highly possessive of my wife. Dad is detached and angry. He got into bed, grew a beard and stayed there for 4 months when we announced our plans to get married. Did not attend our wedding. Parents live a divorce – little regard for each other, but huge co-dependency. They separate every 2 weeks for 7-10 days. My wife left school early and did drugs + alcohol until +- time I met her at age 38. I never have. Emotional neglect and child abuse in the mix. Finances amongst all are a mixed mess and currently there is huge financial distress after bad decisions. As a result my wife is currently sharing a home with her parents with dad leaving every so often. I have often been accused of “looking down” on my wife for this, which does not resonate. Still the “prey” scenario you mention, stings a little. I will dig deep and adjust.

In other readings I learnt that I am not living my spirituality. I was shocked to realize how unstable I allowed myself to become over the past +-4 years. I’ve become everything I don’t want to be and neglected too many of my personal things to keep my marriage afloat. It earned me a label : "controlling". In reality I saw that people who become passive and unco-operative control everything – until everything is stagnant, stale or dead and then they up and leave. If I have to be honest, I think deep down my wife loves me, but her heart is not in it. Hope that makes sense. She hurt me and cause me a lot of pain and confusion.

I do feel disadvantaged and unherioc at the moment with a failed marriage I have to lump the humility pill. I am also sure I will get over that in time.

62.3 shows you in danger of adhering to some kind of principle that undermines you. I can “feel” this, but not sure what this is. Will let it brew untill I find "the master."

Once again, thank you for your response. It brought much light. Thank you to Mryou1 as well. You are both building a stairway to heaven with what you do here.
 

Trojina

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Most of what you say here, resonate 100% accurately. It is not a new or fragile relationship. We’ve been together for 7 years, married for little over 2. We are also older @ 45+

ah ...yes you said you were married


I read the relationship link you sent. I asked what attitude I should have towards my marriage and received Hex 2 unchanged. Still unpacking it. (I am getting good at this, but it takes a while :) ) This line in LiSe’s HEX 2 connects …. The noble one proceeds probing. As pioneer he meets with confusion, in the rear he finds a master. I believe I will.
Does Lise know how that sounds to the British ear ? :rofl: What with 'probing' and 'rears' and 'master' ...well it all sounds a little hmmm, suggestive shall we say.

I don't think one needs to look literally for a master with hex 2 its just the initiative isn't really yours. This can manifest as waiting on someone elses decision or instruction or it can suggest you allow them to lead. Or it could be the ground is fertile, open ready for you to sow as you wish. recent experiences of mine with 2 unchanging have tended to mean having to follow instructions...can be pretty boring Theres a whole thread on 2 unchanging i wil link to it later. Re reading your initial post you say your head want to keep distance but your heart doesn't. Well 59.6 is on the side of keeping distance but its not black and white...you yourself have to figure what the harm is here

I do have a tendency to “fix” everything and often feel the outcome will be better if I do more/better. I am actively changing this at the moment. I was the older, committed partner. I have often and consistently (daily) told and shown my wife that I love her deeply. We had a rocky relationship and I have at previous occasions done the big love declarations and will consider your suggestion, although this does not feel like a fit. I think you are right – it may not be right for me. Maybe this very piece is my “big declaration”.
Yes the hex doesn't exactly support more initiative so you are probably right...your big declaration is getting it all out into the open, speaking of it, here and elsewhere.

In terms of reality, (realism asked in 62) we are like chalk and cheese. I come from a huge, loud, well educated, wealthy, supportive family with some average hiccups. I have young adult daughters who are courageous, self-supporting, impressive women. My partner comes from small, highly dysfunctional family with no extended family. Mom is a functioning alcoholic with an exaggerated sense of entitlement and highly possessive of my wife. Dad is detached and angry. He got into bed, grew a beard and stayed there for 4 months when we announced our plans to get married. Did not attend our wedding. Parents live a divorce – little regard for each other, but huge co-dependency. They separate every 2 weeks for 7-10 days. My wife left school early and did drugs + alcohol until +- time I met her at age 38. I never have. Emotional neglect and child abuse in the mix. Finances amongst all are a mixed mess and currently there is huge financial distress after bad decisions. As a result my wife is currently sharing a home with her parents with dad leaving every so often. I have often been accused of “looking down” on my wife for this, which does not resonate. Still the “prey” scenario you mention, stings a little. I will dig deep and adjust.
The 'prey' is from the Yi...the line talks of shooting a bird in a cave. He can't miss can he. I can't be sure how that applies to the situation. You will know better how it might.
It is better to engage directly with the imagery from the Yi than look to others commentaries...becasue the answer will always be very specific to you.....no generalisations about the right way to live etc etc






In other readings I learnt that I am not living my spirituality. I was shocked to realize how unstable I allowed myself to become over the past +-4 years. I’ve become everything I don’t want to be and neglected too many of my personal things to keep my marriage afloat. It earned me a label : "controlling". In reality I saw that people who become passive and unco-operative control everything – until everything is stagnant, stale or dead and then they up and leave. If I have to be honest, I think deep down my wife loves me, but her heart is not in it. Hope that makes sense. She hurt me and cause me a lot of pain and confusion.

I do feel disadvantaged and unherioc at the moment with a failed marriage I have to lump the humility pill. I am also sure I will get over that in time.
Why call it 'failed' ? Maybe it just had a lifespan....and you both learned alot in the process

:)
 

jbutler

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Hello;
There is definitely some good advice going on here. Very cool, but, there is some old traditional advice that seems to linger on in this society that obviously doesn't work but still keeps being passed around. For instance very good relationships are founded on necessity, proximity, need, and not so many probably on all the fluffy stuff we see in movies. While it is true that relationships are made in part of this stuff, it isn't what make relationships great. While the movie extol passion as making "great" relationships, it is a bit overrated, but passion is what make relationships very good. The part that gets misunderstood is that passion can be generated in simple ways, if you have the knowhow. Also, contrary to popular belief, relationships can be fixed in a matter of minutes, but usually what gets in the way is pride and/or revenge and/or tradition and/or shoulda's/coulda's/wouldsa's. Sometimes, being right is more important than learning and being open hearted to learning what pleases your spouse/partner. Sometimes tradition is more important than getting along. In such cases, the relationship is doomed to fail. We have all seen it. We have all witnessed this. Yi doesn't support such egotistical actions. Stepping back and looking at the problems with detachment and sometimes emotional distance is the Yi way. Non action is the Yi way, but even that can be misunderstood. We all misunderstand and it causes disfunction among people who could like each other very much. This is life and it is human, al-be-it dysfunctional. We like to blame and guilt because it makes us feel powerful, needed, and we get support from people who also value those things, but ultimately it fails to unite people.

Yes Trojan, relationships can be fixed in a matter of minutes. I hope we can become friends. You are very knowledgable.

Yi always suggest us to disperse and sacrifice whatever gets in the way of our peace. Sometimes that means to be very brave and confront those things that harms us most but seem innocuous. Tradition seems innocuous, but it can be very harmful.

Anyway, some very cool stuff happening here. I hope what I have to say is helpful to you (and everyone here) in some way.
 

curious1

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Thank you
Your comments are valued. I agree that romance as we see it in the movies, is not real. I also don't believe that intimate relationships are only limited to the 5 senses and physical security. I believe that there is another spiritual kind of relationship - one where we are challenged to grow. For that, I honor my partner. You can read Gary Zukav's Seat of the soul, or Harville Hendrikz How to get the love you want.

But all of this relationship stuff becomes extremely subjective for each of us. We are taught to "set boundaries" and then when we do, we are told how controlling we are or that we are embracing "woulds/shoulds/coulds. Where is the line between "applying guilt" and holding someone accountable? Where is the line between discerning and judging ? Where is the line between being unconditional generosity and being used.

The bottom line for me was the realisation that I seldom felt good to be in this relationship. I did not feel good when we went out for an evening and my partner totally ignore me. Yes, I am confident enought to make my own fun. But is the expectation unrealistic that we go out together to have fun together? Did my partner really love me ? I don't know. She said she did, but I did not see it in the way she communicated with me or her consistant rejections of affection. I communicated my confusion the best I can. Sometimes I was mad about stuff that happened. Sometimes I was in tears. Did I have too many expectations ? Or was this simply a bad relationship ? When is a sigar, just a sigar?

Now I left. And I am trying to learn from this experience.
 

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