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HOW IT WORKS (...maybe)

pedro

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The first question one asks is where do the answers come from? I try to refrain from stating it (obviously not enough), out of respect for other peoples beliefs, but it seems to me that most people expose their credulity more than anything else, when they talk about the Yi as some way to get answers directly from god, mysterious spirits, or whatever high-beings they imagine. These people often even think that these high-beings have some special interest in their existences, and link every odd occurrence in their lives to their manifestation. We all want some superior entity to come out of the skies and tell us what to do with our lives, and we expect that magic answer to come from the Yi. But that can only lead to disappointment. I admit I too have fallen under that fallacy, but now I realize it doesnt work that way. There is no need to bring other entities into the game, apart from the only real entity intervening in the process.

The Yi can provoke us to come up with the answers OURSELVES, but it cannot give them black-in-white as if it was some sort of almanac (and even almanacs, that state the weather for the whole year ahead, are bound to be right sometimes). There is no one size fits all, or some sort of enlightened scholar's interpretation that unveils some unmistakable answer. And so there is little interest in trying to find the real answer. If one cannot know in the first place which of the possible interpretations is actually the true one, then its useless to go and ask someone more knowledgeable (unless from the fact that this clarification can itself ring more bells). Gene really nailed it when he said "I suspect it is not just knowing the I Ching but yourself as well". If it didn't ring a bell, then just forget it. If it did, then THAT is our answer (for the moment being), even if its not the "right" one. What is important is the intent of the answer, more than the answer itself.

So what the Yi does is to throw us bates in several directions. The hooks you bite are the parts of the answer that you take as relevant, the ones you take to be the whole. The rest you just discard (it may be relevant in some other context, but not for this question Im asking right now, so I wont even see it). This process is known as selective thinking. The point for me is that the text is mostly open, and it is WE and we alone that supply the answer. How do we do that? We read the text and something is bound to resonate in our minds, provoking thoughts that are indeed the real answer. We give the answers to ourselves, maybe not the right ones, but it still forced us to meditate on them. If the Yi's texts said such objective omens like "you'll break a leg today", or "you'll win the lottery next weekend", then it would be easy to see that it definitely didnt work. Hell, I could even win the lottery this time, but surely not every time that answer comes out.

But being open in its form, the Yi also makes it very hard for us to select the "real" answer. When the answers come resonating from the sub- to the conscious, there is a lot of ways in which we can distort them to match our expectations. In terms of precise divination of future facts, we can most of the time just do post-hoc reasoning. The Yi would say something like "you'll win the lottery but you can break a leg (if you get too excited and start jumping around like a madman)". Then we choose the part of the answer we like (the lottery), and if next weekend instead of winning a pile of money we break a leg, we'll be saying "it was there all along, I just didn't wanna see it". The Yi never tricks us, but we trick ourselves all the time. If we happen to win the lottery, though, then it proves besides any reasonable doubt that the Yi is an amazing predicting tool. This is indeed god's broadcast for us humans to tune in, let us all surrender. That is simply giving up to our inalienable rights.

I had recently a very important matter that I asked a lot about (hey, is there any other way to learn than the hard way?). I was looking for precise answers. Yes or no, damn it! I could as well have flipped a coin, since the accuracy would be the same. At some point we have had all the possible answers, and we're back where we started, everything open. Surely somewhere among all these answers theres the real one? let me ask again! But it can never tell me a precise fate, even if I believed that a precise fate actually existed. It can tell me "yes", this moment, and "no", the next. Is it of any use then? Of course! It made me confront "yes" back then, and "no" just now. I learned a lot from this process, as anyone that actually used it can state. It opens my views. But was it the "sage" (I particularly dislike this coined term)? I dont think so, merely the sage we all have within. The Yi even tells us this, "look within for the answer" as in 20.3. From outside we can only get confusion? look within!

Its the confrontation with the coming "answers" that makes it a valuable tool. It expands our minds, and in a way that is kind and benevolent, due to its underlying philosophy. But to think that god would bother answering our petty questions on a one-on-one basis, is just kidding ourselves, and surely a source of profound future disappointment. Even if you can use it to predict (more on this later), there is no way it will always tell you the truth. Or that you will always recognize the truth from its answer, which is the same.

One simple experience (I read some guy actually did this, but his purpose was to dispel it as fake, so he missed the point), would be to give people wrong answers (not the ones that actually came out), and hearing they comment how amazed they were by their accuracy (hum, maybe the Yi knew its answers would be tampered with, and intended the wrong answer all along). Maybe we could even shuffle lines omens at random, or a different oracular structure be decided (I dunno, more than two states per line, or other than 6 lines, or forget lines, I want dots, of different colors or whatever), or we could randomly pick one out of a thousand of vague omens, and the result would be the same. If it's a matter of provoking us thoughts, then it doesn't really matter what provokes them and how.

Fascinating as Steve Marshal's and other scholar's work is, I dont even think history is of particular relevance, since this could have been written at a different age and place, surely not using the same imagery, and it would still work. I do agree with the need to get as close to the source as possible, at least I'll be forming my own images, not someone else's, but I cannot say for sure that my images are more accurate than yours or vice-versa. They are the ones that have worked for me in the past, and they have helped me a lot, no doubt. But I had plainly wrong views over some hexagrams in my early days (Im sure I still have some), and even then it worked (for me). It really did as it always will, because the answers were not in the texts in the first place, those were only the catalysts for me to come up with them myself.

And what when an answer comes out that doesn't say a thing? Some answers just don't resonate at all, maybe none of the bates looked tasty enough for our mind to grab it. Steve seems to suggest in another thread that its a matter of knowing the "real" text. But as I said, there is not a definitely right text, cause even the Yi had many incarnations and suffered from various deturpations. I believe that even going to the ultimate source would prove unfruitful in some cases. It was simply a wrong answer. What it happens is that when we get such a reading, we tend to look to other sources for additional meaning. We will look deeper into the symbol, by our own effort or guided by the (possibly wrong) views of others. But the point is we will do this as deep and for as long as we need, until something (inevitably) resonates in our brain. And then that is our answer. But no one can say that was the true answer, the most profound meaning of that particular hexagram, cause indeed next time it may not be that same notion that provokes us. We will look for ANY answer, and restlessly so, until we find one.

But if it is all a mind game, a way to reach conclusions by ourselves, then how come divination IS possible? And how come it even speaks literally at times, like it was addressing us directly? In short, why does it (so obviously) work?

First of all we have to keep in mind that it also DOESN'T work. For instance if we ask repeatedly, or if we fail to understand (by lack of knowledge, interpretation skills or merely a good translation). The times when we say it really DID work, are those when it has resonated deeply in our mind, we paid a lot more attention to those times than to those it went mute on us, and so we're back to our own minds again. It just acted as a catalyst to bring out what we already had in. This also accounts for the fact that different people give special significance to changes that happened at important times for them, but we wouldn't be consensual as to which those important changes are. People attribute special significance to the particular answers they got at key points in their lives, but seldom reflect that this is all due to subjective concern, and there cannot be one single truth. To each its own.

But also, more often than we notice, we have intuition. Now intuition is just a glimpse of the subconscious, a piece of pure knowledge that doesn't pass through the usual ego barriers, and so is not questioned by reason. And we all know our reason can deceive us more easily than it will help us find the truth. Reasoning can spoil the meaning that a pure mind would be able to grasp. All religions stress the fact that the answers are to be found inside ourselves and nowhere else. By looking at the "antecedent" of it all, not the "I" but the "am", not the puppet, not the strings, but the puppeteer, we come to the full comprehension. And only that way.

So in this sense the Yi is a tool to reach our subconscious. It does that by surprising us, by provoking us a state of perplexity that ceases the usual ego function (the ego can only operate on pure logic), in pretty much the same way the hua tou works. Once this state of perplexity, or doubt, is provoked, the ego is set on hold, and the glimpses we get on that brief instant are pure thoughts from our subconscious side, untampered and consequently, true.

What is needed from any symbolic oracle, is that it provides a representative sample of reality encoded in its symbols (a cosmology). It must provide enough situations so some of them are bound to strike us, and provoke that surprised state. It must be vague to work, but if it contains some precise objective statements (in the case of the Yi these take the form of all the imagery derived from historical facts) the better, cause when they happen to fall right on spot it serves to prove the Yi. That's also how hexagram #4 surprising statement works. You don't get it cause the Yi wants to shut you up. You get it when you consult too much (of course, that's only statistics).

But if all this skeptic vision explains fairly well the self-growth part of the use, it doesn't answer so well the fact why it happens to divine correctly. Sure it can come from intuition, reducing it to the first case (ie selective thinking, but now a more enlightened one), or it can be coincidental, and we just pay more attention to the divinations that work. In fact coincidences are not as odd as we often think. We pay attention to the meaningful odd occurrences, but don't evaluate statistically the meaningless not-so-odd ones, and so we suffer from self-deception.

Still there is this notion, undeniable from experience, that not only it works, but it seems to elect the most appropriate answer for each question. Not any answer, we would read something out of, but indeed the answer that speaks directly about the facts asked. This doesn't happen all the time (important to notice, indeed one of the motives behind repeated questioning is wanting to force this to happen), but it does happen all the time we really NEED it.

Although the skeptics view is important to eliminate some of the superstition around the Yi, it doesn't explain the obvious conclusion we come to when actually working with it on a serious manner. Apparently we are able to make the "correct" hexagram fall out, that's what experience tells, and Im sure you all agree.

But how does this happen? By some sort of ideomotor effect? I have trouble believing that the particular system the Chinese invented somehow takes into account subconscious activity to make the coins fall out some specific way. Other systems also work, so there is not a supremacy of the Yi. If that is indeed the way it works, it cannot have been devised like that, it was found that it works like that. After all the source of the Yi system is a very prosaic one, wanting yes or no questions to be answered. There were no enlightened sages devising a magical tool, it must have happened pretty naturally.

Incidentally, I happen to believe that the mind has indeed an effect over random processes, and perhaps by some undetermined rule, it shapes the random "energy curves" around it, making random happen one particular way. Following this line of thought, one could argue that the oracle's meanings were determined empirically. Over the centuries, people faced with similar questions, would generate the specific mindfield that distorts random in a particular way, and we would see a correlation of the results that came out for those questions. By an incremental process, of tuning the correlated meanings over the years, the final text would have been constructed, reflecting the mental state's relations to specific meaning. This theory could be tested given enough time. Just devise a symbolic system and a random method to elect one of the symbols. With enough consultations on specific questions, one would see that specific symbols came out associated with specific outcomes, and some omen text could be determined for each symbol.

But there is another thing that bothers me in the skeptic view. Even if hexagrams come out by purely random processes, and the mind has no effect on the draw, coincidentally so, they happen to be the most wise we could get for the question we posed. And that beyond the skeptics view of coincidences. There is need for more than coincidence, and thats why people talk about synchronicity. But synchronicity doesn't strike me as something real, at least not as some law governing chance. Its just an abstract concept to describe a phenomenon we fail to understand in its entirety. The answer, I think, has not to do with chance at all.

Somehow our paths in life take us to the knowledge we need, at the precise time we need it. This can mean bumping into an important book hidden under a pile in a bookstore, listening by chance to some words that resonate in a special way, or getting that fantastic reading from the Yi that really opens our eyes, and was "just what we needed to hear". The principle is the same, it seems coincidental, yet with time we see this so called coincidences were strategically placed among the course of our lives, like directions along a path, and we start to feel that it was intended, that our mind (perhaps) is what makes it happen, like it had determined all along the path that we would be traveling, and made the clues available at the right points, so we would be able to jump to the conclusions we needed to.

Or maybe our souls simply chose to incarnate into a specific life that would bring those so called coincidences. The one with the little pieces of wisdom we needed on the way. The directions were already on that particular path, we just chose to follow that, and only that, path. That was the path with the answers we needed to learn. This is not so hard to believe, after all I don't think astrology can be understood any other way. We choose the instant of time and space we will be born, so we will be forced to experience particularly important challenges. Those we need in order to grow further.

That's why concentration is important in the process of casting. Actually we don't get concentrated to get real answers, it was the fact that we needed an answer that made us pay attention. Somehow at those turning points in our lives we sense something relevant is going on and we pay attention. Concentration was more of a consequence than the determining factor, we needed that answer, and so it has come to us. We just happen to be more attentive during those times.

That's also why even miscasting (not knowing the "right" method, or making an error while using the method) can work. We needed that answer, that "coincidence" in our life, and we would get it, even if by a wrong reading.

This brings me back to the role of the mind in all our existence. In fact, even physics knows that everything is devoided of existence. Matter is composed of 99% empty space, and the remaining 1%, when put under the microscope, is itself made of 99% empty space, and so an as we progress deeper. So it is all an illusion, none of us is seeing life as it really is, but merely its own, personal beliefs about it, which due to subjective concerns can only be wrong (unless we've freed ourselves from conditioning, and reached enlightenment). So it seems our mind is only taking us through the steps necessary to learn what ever it is we need to learn, and that can take many forms. In that sense, although the hexagrams fall out by random, random itself is created (or chose) by our own minds, and we get the random occurrences we NEED throughout our lives.

So we're back to the beginning, and its all a mind game. That it works, it surely does, that it helps us grow, its also uncontestable. But there is nothing, and no one giving us the answers. We are making the questions and the answers ourselves, and that for me is the final conclusion.

To finish it up, I don't pretend to have it all sorted out. Next minute my convictions (and they are just that: my convictions) may be shattered by some unaccountable experience. I still sense there may be something more. What is it? That's something we must continue to ask ourselves, as I believe the answer is not to be found outside. One thing I must agree is that the way the Yi works is intimately connected to the way our own minds work. And understanding one must bring some enlightenment over the other. That's the real value of the Yi.

Final lesson: we are what we believe. The Yi can help us find out what we believe, but it can not (and should not) tell us what to believe. Allowing that would be giving up on our right to govern our lives.

Now go and have fun with it
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tashiiij

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Wow so much here, must go back and read more, but in quoting Steve Marshall from the 44 thread, i believe he was saying that to understand a line you need to understand ---the concrete imagery---....that is different than stating one must know 'the real text', as you state here.

anyway. gonna keep working on reading what you've got here...
 

pedro

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You are right, I wrote "text" where I should have wrote "meaning". What I meant was "Steve seems to sugest in another thread that its a matter of knowing the "real" meaning. But as I said there is not one definitely right meaning"

I had spotted it already, along with a couple other tidbits, I was hopping to be able to edit the message as I did in the past, but either the message edit button is gone, or I cant seem to find the right page...
 

pedro

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Bottom line, what I think Im starting to understand is that the Yi draws are actually random, but we are born the very instant and place that would allow us to receive them right now
 

frandoch

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Hi there,

My twopennyworth. Sorry it?s long, but this is an important topic - and you don?t have to read it.

The I Ching is a language. It is a means of communication between the individual conscious mind and the individual unconscious mind, and also the collective unconscious, which we all share.

If these terms and concepts are unfamiliar, consider an analogy. Imagine you are standing on a hill overlooking a valley, which is full of thick mist, and poking out of the mist are the tops of trees. Consider the top of one tree. This appears to be separate and individual, and equates to the individual conscious mind. But, out of sight below the mist, is the trunk, which equates to the individual subconscious and unconscious minds. But at the base, the trunk grows out of the earth, as do all the other individual trunks. The earth equates to the collective unconscious, the shared unconscious, what some would call the Universal mind. This means that we are but outgrowths from a single entity; that we are all interconnected; that we are all one. See below.

This may seem a bit mystical, so has modern science anything to say about this? Let?s take a piece of rock, which is obviously solid, and made of stuff, and then let us examine it under a very powerful microscope. (Here the word microscope includes many different techniques for examining the very small). As we increase the magnification the smooth surface becomes rougher and rougher, and then disappears. We see a crystal lattice structure. (I know not all rocks will be like this, but the argument is not affected). We see atoms hanging in space in an orderly arrangement. When we see diagrams of lattice structures, the atoms are usually connected by lines, but they don?t exist in the real world any more than there is a line on the ground or on the surface of the sea around the Equator. The atoms in the lattice are held there by invisible force fields. So our solid rock is made up of a lot of empty space with lumps of matter in it.

Now let?s zoom in on one of the atoms. When we do, it disappears, and we see a central mass, called a nucleus, surrounded by a number of smaller masses, called electrons, orbiting round it. Compare this atom with the Solar System, and think how much empty space there is between the Sun and the planets. The Earth is about 4000 miles across, but is 96,000,000 miles from the Sun. From the perspective of the atom, the distances are just as vast. In fact, the atom consists of about 99.9999% empty space.

So, there?s not much left of our lump of rock. But guess what happens when we zoom in on the matter that is left, the nucleus and the electrons. You?ve guessed it. They disappear. They are just packets of energy.

So the material universe is not material; the physical universe is not physical. The universe, the galaxies, the stars, the planets, the oceans, the sky, the mountains, the plants, the animals, including us, in fact, everything that exists, is made of non-stuff, just energy. Theoretical scientists propose that there exists, and has always existed, even before time and space came into being, a quantum field, a sea of infinite possibilities out of which anything could manifest into form or objects. This is not mysticism, this is science. We are all made of the same non-stuff. We all come from the same source; we are all interconnected; we are all one. See above.


Having briefly considered matter and space, let?s now consider time. The concept of the flow of time is a construct of the conscious mind. It is our logical way of explaining change. We think of past, present and future, with the present moment, the ?Now?, as the thinnest dividing line separating the past from the future; the boundary where the future flips back to become the past. But, there is another way of looking at this: that the present moment is forever renewing itself: that the ?Now? moment is eternal. After all, we can only ever experience the ?Now?. When we remember the past, or plan for the future, we are not experiencing them, we are remembering the past or planning the future in the present moment. There have been isolated tribes whose languages have no words for past or future. They don?t envisage isolated events, only continuous processes. They would refer to a house as ?housing?, a tree as ?treeing?, a dog as ?dogging?, a cow as ?cowing?. We too are a process. A continuously changing process. Life is a process. To live is to be. So perhaps we should call ourselves beings? We do.

It turns out that our unconscious minds have no concept of the flow of time either. Past, present and possible futures all exist as one, and as this collective unconscious is shared with all living creatures, we have a source of knowledge which is all encompassing. Surely then, if we can, we should learn to tap into this inexhaustible fount of knowledge.

The unconscious does communicate with our conscious minds, in the form of dreams, intuition, flashes of insight and sometimes through just a deep sense of knowing. It also communicates through coincidences. But this is all a bit hit and miss. What we need is a way of communicating with the unconscious when we need to. The problem is that the unconscious does not use our language, which is logical, linear and sequential, another construct of the conscious mind. It uses a holistic form of language, consisting of symbols and archetypes. So we need a language that we both understand; a language based on symbols, which we must then interpret. But this is true of our written or spoken language. What you are reading is a series of symbols or letters, black blobs on a piece of paper; but because we have agreed that these symbols have meaning when grouped together in various ways, i.e. words and sentences, they form a common language. However, there is a problem. When I write or speak a series of these symbols, I intend a certain meaning, and then I hope and trust that your interpretation of them agrees with my original intention. But, frequently this is not the case. We have all said or written things that have been misconstrued. Offence is taken where none was intended. We can never guarantee that our meaning has been transmitted accurately. How much more so when we are using very basic symbols as our means of communication. In China, there are hundreds of different dialects. People from one area speak what amounts to a different language from people living close by, even though the written form of the language is the same. So, when we are considering a means of communicating with the unconscious, we have to bear in mind all the difficulties inherent in the use of a symbolic language. Probably the most all-encompassing language ever developed for this purpose is the I Ching.

The I Ching started as an oracle, i.e. an agency or means of providing advice, guidance or prophecy. Most of us have consulted an oracle, even if only using the toss of a coin to make a decision. Oracles function by using seemingly chance events to predict the future, or to guide future conduct.

The word seemingly is important. The western mind is scientific. It analyses; takes apart; conducts experiments; tries to establish cause and effect. It sees things sequentially; i.e. event A causes event B which causes event C. If no causation can be established, then the events aren?t connected. But the eastern mind sees things differently; sees each moment as a totality. Every part of each moment encapsulates the whole.

This may sound unlikely, even nonsensical, but consider a western scientific discovery that we use all the time - the hologram. At its simplest, an object is photographed using a split beam of laser light which is recombined to form an interference pattern. When this pattern is illuminated with laser light the image can be projected. But what is important about the hologram is that the film can be cut in two, and either half can be used to project the original image. Each half contains all the information required to project the image. Amazingly, we can carry on cutting the film into smaller and smaller pieces, and each piece still contains all the information required to project the original image. Each part encapsulates the whole. (See previous paragraph). This is western science, not eastern mysticism.

To the eastern mind, when two or more events occur simultaneously, they are connected. What about the western mind? In the last century, C. G. Jung, a pioneering psychoanalyst, furthered our understanding of the workings of the subconscious and unconscious minds. He also produced a scientific paper entitled: ?Synchronicity, an Acausal Connecting Principle?, which sought an explanation of coincidence. This too was science. He also spent many years working with the I Ching and wrote the foreword to the Wilhelm/Baynes edition. So we have a world renowned scientist from the western tradition happily taking on board the eastern approach.

For a more recent example, consider the current work of Dr. Deepak Chopra. An Indian by birth, he works in the United States. He is a leader in the field of endocrinology, and was Chief of Staff at Boston Regional Medical Centre, as well as being a university lecturer in modern western medicine. But, he is also a world exponent of mind/body medicine and a leading authority on the ancient Hindu teachings of Ayurveda medicineSo, we have another leading western scientist who happily accepts eastern concepts. Because of his eastern background and his western training, he has been able to incorporate the understandings of modern quantum physics with ancient eastern teachings. Additionally, recent advances in quantum physics suggest that the eastern model of reality is the one nearer the truth, or at least, that it must be incorporated into our understanding of the Universe.

So, yes I agree that we ourselves provide the answers - but who are ?we?, but parts of the ?one?, the ?all there is?.

Michael F.
 

chrislofting

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Hi Pedro,

you wrote:

>
> Fascinating as Steve Marshal's and other scholar's work is,
> I dont even think history is of particular relevance, since
> this could have been written at a different age and place,
> surely not using the same imagery, and it would still work.

correct.

> I do agree with the need to get as close to the source as
> possible, at least I'll be forming my own images, not
> someone else's, but I cannot say for sure that my images are
> more accurate than yours or vice-versa. They are the ones
> that have worked for me in the past, and they have helped me
> a lot, no doubt. But I had plainly wrong views over some
> hexagrams in my early days (Im sure I still have some), and
> even then it worked (for me). It really did as it always
> will, because the answers were not in the texts in the first
> place, those were only the catalysts for me to come up with
> them myself.
>

see the thread on this forum "The Species I Ching"

> And what when an answer comes out that doesn't say a thing?
> Some answers just don't resonate at all, maybe none of the
> bates looked tasty enough for our mind to grab it. Steve
> seems to suggest in another thread that its a matter of
> knowing the "real" text. But as I said, there is not a
> definitely right text, cause even the Yi had many
> incarnations and suffered from various deturpations. I
> believe that even going to the ultimate source would prove
> unfruitful in some cases. It was simply a wrong answer. What
> it happens is that when we get such a reading, we tend to
> look to other sources for additional meaning. We will look
> deeper into the symbol, by our own effort or guided by the
> (possibly wrong) views of others. But the point is we will
> do this as deep and for as long as we need, until something
> (inevitably) resonates in our brain. And then that is our
> answer. But no one can say that was the true answer, the
> most profound meaning of that particular hexagram, cause
> indeed next time it may not be that same notion that
> provokes us. We will look for ANY answer, and restlessly so,
> until we find one.
>

correct. human trait is to interpret data through rationalisation. If I cut your brain in half, one part, often labelled the 'interpreter' will try to explain events without knowing the details through coming-up with a story of some sort. That part of the brain is 'driven' to interpret and can make mountains out of molehills ;-)

> But if it is all a mind game, a way to reach conclusions by
> ourselves, then how come divination IS possible? And how
> come it even speaks literally at times, like it was
> addressing us directly? In short, why does it (so obviously)
> work?
>

'it' doesnt. You trick yourself into believing it does due to the simple fact that you assume your consciousness is the root of it all - it isnt, your consciousness is but a PART of it all. You cannot know 'it all' as a whole, it is outside of your range of conscious perceptions. See the essay "The Logic of the Esoteric" - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/esoter.html as well as the IDM material (http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/idm001.html)

> First of all we have to keep in mind that it also DOESN'T
> work. For instance if we ask repeatedly, or if we fail to
> understand (by lack of knowledge, interpretation skills or
> merely a good translation). The times when we say it really
> DID work, are those when it has resonated deeply in our
> mind, we paid a lot more attention to those times than to
> those it went mute on us, and so we're back to our own minds
> again.

What you are paying attention to is based on your brain's use of probabilities thinking. The I Ching is a *specialisation*, it comes with its own language etc and it reflects the localisation of "THE" set of generic meanings we all use as a species to derive meaning.

The I Ching is thus a FILTER through which we perceive reality. The moment you focus attention, the moment you set a context by asking a question so the WHOLE of the I Ching is applicable, the I Chings maps 'all there is' BUT EVERY hexagram is applicable to any moment, IOW there is a STRING of all 64 hexagrams applicable to any moment where that string is sorted from 'best fit' to 'worst fit'. Randomisation will elicit ONE of those hexagrams and sometimes you get the 'best fit' and other times the 'worst fit' but at all times, since the hexagrams are PARTS, whatever hexagram you get can be made 'meaningful'.

The more proactive form of using the I Ching is trusting your GENERAL sense of what is going on and so using questions to elicit a hexagram rather than random elements (or get someoneelse to answer the questions for you) - this method gives you a better chance of getting the 'best fit' hexagram for a situation.

All we can ever know as a species member we already know - in the form of the *possible* set of meanings for any situation. BUT these meanings, rooted in our species-nature, are too general for precise communications, they are 'universals'. To be more precise we take these universals and associate them with a specific context and from that association derive labels we then use to communicate details of that specific context.

Thus the hexagram of 02 is at the species-nature level representiative of 'contractive blending', a really generic term that context then relabels as, for example, total darkness or total devotion. ;-)

As a species we use the ONE set of really generic qualities to derive our sense of meaning. We then customise those qualities in the form of such labels as the hexagrams of the I Ching. The customiser is our consciousness-nature.

> It just acted as a catalyst to bring out what we
> already had in. This also accounts for the fact that
> different people give special significance to changes that
> happened at important times for them, but we wouldn't be
> consensual as to which those important changes are. People
> attribute special significance to the particular answers
> they got at key points in their lives, but seldom reflect
> that this is all due to subjective concern, and there cannot
> be one single truth. To each its own.
>

correct - BUT since we all share the same set of generic qualities so we can all communicate 'in general' ;-)

> But also, more often than we notice, we have intuition. Now
> intuition is just a glimpse of the subconscious, a piece of
> pure knowledge that doesn't pass through the usual ego
> barriers, and so is not questioned by reason.

What we call intuition is the summing of experiences of the species, collectives, and individual at the level of our species-nature where the focus is on learning 'good' habits and instincts. Our species-nature is integrated with reality, it deals with reality holistically and so out of our consciousness experience where our consciousness is more PARTS oriented, more precise than the basic instincts and so able to refine those instincts with habits etc and so intuition can improve with age.

Some are born with 'good intuitions' in that their instincts are well defined at birth and so require little refinement. Others need to do work to develop their intuitions.

> And we all
> know our reason can deceive us more easily than it will help
> us find the truth. Reasoning can spoil the meaning that a
> pure mind would be able to grasp.

Pure mind is more of an issue in that it can allow for delusions to emerge. Reason covers the full range of logic, a range often ignored by modern Science that is too focused on statics and so the sense of the timeless and the eternal and so changeless. The IC reflects the need to recognise the thermodynamics of the universe and so the inevitability of change.

> All religions stress the
> fact that the answers are to be found inside ourselves and
> nowhere else. By looking at the "antecedent" of it all, not
> the "I" but the "am", not the puppet, not the strings, but
> the puppeteer, we come to the full comprehension. And only
> that way.
>

Even Science is demonstrating this - see my IDM work.

> So in this sense the Yi is a tool to reach our subconscious.
> It does that by surprising us, by provoking us a state of
> perplexity that ceases the usual ego function (the ego can
> only operate on pure logic), in pretty much the same way the
> hua tou works. Once this state of perplexity, or doubt, is
> provoked, the ego is set on hold, and the glimpses we get on
> that brief instant are pure thoughts from our subconscious
> side, untampered and consequently, true.
>

All it does is show you the PARTS that make-up the WHOLE. Learn the details of the PARTS and you will get closer to the whole ;-)

> What is needed from any symbolic oracle, is that it provides
> a representative sample of reality encoded in its symbols (a
> cosmology). It must provide enough situations so some of
> them are bound to strike us, and provoke that surprised
> state. It must be vague to work, but if it contains some
> precise objective statements (in the case of the Yi these
> take the form of all the imagery derived from historical
> facts) the better, cause when they happen to fall right on
> spot it serves to prove the Yi. That's also how hexagram #4
> surprising statement works. You don't get it cause the Yi
> wants to shut you up. You get it when you consult too much
> (of course, that's only statistics).
>

The 'vagueness' is in the species-nature levels of meaning. See my IDM work that maps this out. The I Ching reflects this vagueness but in a specialist format rooted in Chinese civilisation. As such there is (a) the 'traditional' I Ching of the 10th century BC and the 'science-supported' I Ching of the 21st century AD.

The level of vagueness is given in the "Species I Ching" thread on this forum, or see my ichingplus material.

> But if all this skeptic vision explains fairly well the
> self-growth part of the use, it doesn't answer so well the
> fact why it happens to divine correctly.

All we can ever know are 'differentiations/integrations' aka 'what/where' aka 'objects/relationships' - all compressed into the generic terms of yang/yin. Our thinking is (a) based on probabilities (and so we sort data into best/worst fits) (b) expectations where we know what we would like to see and so 'bend' interpretations to fit.

Overall it is heuristics that rules - answer the IC generic questions and you will get a good fit to the situation. Toss coins and you will get a fit in that ALL hexagrams, being parts, will fit the situation BUT they are sorted from 'best' to 'worst' and so sometimes it works really well, and other times it sort of works but combined with some 'expectations' can be made to fit really well.

> Sure it can come
> from intuition, reducing it to the first case (ie selective
> thinking, but now a more enlightened one), or it can be
> coincidental, and we just pay more attention to the
> divinations that work. In fact coincidences are not as odd
> as we often think. We pay attention to the meaningful odd
> occurrences, but don't evaluate statistically the
> meaningless not-so-odd ones, and so we suffer from
> self-deception.
>

As I said, our brains will work of probabilities thinking and so random data will always fit due to all parts being reflected at the one moment, it is just that the randomness will give you a part you may not have considered in your reflections upon the situation.

> Still there is this notion, undeniable from experience, that
> not only it works, but it seems to elect the most
> appropriate answer for each question. Not any answer, we
> would read something out of, but indeed the answer that
> speaks directly about the facts asked. This doesn't happen
> all the time (important to notice, indeed one of the motives
> behind repeated questioning is wanting to force this to
> happen), but it does happen all the time we really NEED it.
>

As I have said, ALL hexagrams, trigrams, dodecagrams etc are applicable to ANY question in that the the properties of the question, where the question is a WHOLE, are immediately mapped to all parts that are the WHOLE that is the I Ching.

The I Ching 'elects' nothing, ALL of the I Ching is applicable. The issue is in us not understanding the nature of one's consciousness-nature vs that of one's species-nature. People assume that their consciousness is their 'whole', it isnt, it is a PART. If you dont recognise this 'issue' then one can be caught-up in paradox etc.

> Although the skeptics view is important to eliminate some of
> the superstition around the Yi, it doesn't explain the
> obvious conclusion we come to when actually working with it
> on a serious manner. Apparently we are able to make the
> "correct" hexagram fall out, that's what experience tells,
> and Im sure you all agree.
>

No. Using questions you can get close to getting the 'correct' hexagram. Using randomness you will get one of 64 hexagrams that form a string applicable to the moment at hand. Sometimes you get the 'best fit', other times the 'worst fit' and other times something in between BUT since they are all PARTS of the whole so ANY hexagram will elicit meaning that expectations will then 'refine' ;-)

> But how does this happen? By some sort of ideomotor effect?

basic resonance. All we can know is already known in the form of the basic universal qualities we all share as species members. The filter of the I Ching then relabels these universals, makes them more 'meaningful', adds some 'colour' ;-)

> I have trouble believing that the particular system the
> Chinese invented somehow takes into account subconscious
> activity to make the coins fall out some specific way.

The Chinese grasped expressions without understanding what is behind those expressions. We as a species have not been sitting on our hands for the last three thousand years and can now flesh-out the roots of the I Ching in our species-nature, not just in the Chinese culture.

> Other
> systems also work, so there is not a supremacy of the Yi.

its structure is better in that it reflects what the brain does very well. Other specialisations do the same thing but their terms, language, can make understanding limited without lots of experience.

> If
> that is indeed the way it works, it cannot have been devised
> like that, it was found that it works like that. After all
> the source of the Yi system is a very prosaic one, wanting
> yes or no questions to be answered. There were no
> enlightened sages devising a magical tool, it must have
> happened pretty naturally.
>

See the IDM pages, thats the source of the I Ching - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/idm001.html


> Incidentally, I happen to believe that the mind has indeed
> an effect over random processes, and perhaps by some
> undetermined rule, it shapes the random "energy curves"
> around it, making random happen one particular way.

IMHO you need to recognise the differences between our species-nature and our consciousness-nature and how 'randomness' works in the IC.

> Following this line of thought, one could argue that the
> oracle's meanings were determined empirically. Over the
> centuries, people faced with similar questions, would
> generate the specific mindfield that distorts random in a
> particular way, and we would see a correlation of the
> results that came out for those questions.

As the Species I Ching page lays-out, the FEELINGS behind the hexagrams are rooted in our species-nature. Our consciousness then links those generics to particular contexts and relabels things.

> By an incremental
> process, of tuning the correlated meanings over the years,
> the final text would have been constructed, reflecting the
> mental state's relations to specific meaning. This theory
> could be tested given enough time. Just devise a symbolic
> system and a random method to elect one of the symbols. With
> enough consultations on specific questions, one would see
> that specific symbols came out associated with specific
> outcomes, and some omen text could be determined for each
> symbol.
>

Already done. See the IDM material.

> But there is another thing that bothers me in the skeptic
> view. Even if hexagrams come out by purely random processes,
> and the mind has no effect on the draw, coincidentally so,
> they happen to be the most wise we could get for the
> question we posed. And that beyond the skeptics view of
> coincidences. There is need for more than coincidence, and
> thats why people talk about synchronicity. But synchronicity
> doesn't strike me as something real, at least not as some
> law governing chance. Its just an abstract concept to
> describe a phenomenon we fail to understand in its entirety.
> The answer, I think, has not to do with chance at all.
>

yes and no. See the IDM material. ;-)

> Somehow our paths in life take us to the knowledge we need,
> at the precise time we need it.

the knowledge you need is ALWAYS available but outside of your consciousness. The moment you focus attention on anything the I Ching (or any other preferred filtering system) applies and since all the parts are linked together so associations can work very quickly and out can pop the 'correct' orderings. Know the I Ching well and you can throw away the book.

> This can mean bumping into
> an important book hidden under a pile in a bookstore,
> listening by chance to some words that resonate in a special
> way, or getting that fantastic reading from the Yi that
> really opens our eyes, and was "just what we needed to
> hear". The principle is the same, it seems coincidental, yet
> with time we see this so called coincidences were
> strategically placed among the course of our lives, like
> directions along a path, and we start to feel that it was
> intended, that our mind (perhaps) is what makes it happen,
> like it had determined all along the path that we would be
> traveling, and made the clues available at the right points,
> so we would be able to jump to the conclusions we needed to.
>

The wholeness of the I Ching works topologically, rubber-sheet geometry where all points are connected to all others such that an association can elicit a string of meanings 'synchronistically' ;-)


> That's why concentration is important in the process of
> casting. Actually we don't get concentrated to get real
> answers, it was the fact that we needed an answer that made
> us pay attention. Somehow at those turning points in our
> lives we sense something relevant is going on and we pay
> attention. Concentration was more of a consequence than the
> determining factor, we needed that answer, and so it has
> come to us. We just happen to be more attentive during those
> times.
>

All you need to do is ask a question. period. That act of focusing attention will overlay the I Ching filter onto your question and ALL hexagrams are applicable. If you want, you can go through every hexagram to gleem its contribution to fleshing-out the content of the situation.

> That's also why even miscasting (not knowing the "right"
> method, or making an error while using the method) can work.
> We needed that answer, that "coincidence" in our life, and
> we would get it, even if by a wrong reading.
>

Correct. It makes no difference what you use other than the fact that when using the random approach using the yarrow sticks will skew line biases to yin. yin is the 'ground state' more so than 'yang' - we favour conserving energy over expending it - and so the yarrow stick method can elicit hexagrams that seem to 'fit' easier when using 'random' processes.

Thus my material focuses on asking really generic questions to elicit the 'best fit' hexagram.
(e.g. http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/proact3.html and the even more proactive, path work focus, http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icproact.html)

> This brings me back to the role of the mind in all our
> existence. In fact, even physics knows that everything is
> devoided of existence. Matter is composed of 99% empty
> space, and the remaining 1%, when put under the microscope,
> is itself made of 99% empty space, and so an as we progress
> deeper. So it is all an illusion, none of us is seeing life
> as it really is, but merely its own, personal beliefs about
> it,

No. we see it as members of a species first, as conscious individuals second. The failure to recognise the differences is what causes problems in interpretations of reality etc.

Our species-nature interacts holistically and is integrated with reality through hundreds of thousands of years of instinct development - the focus is on symmetry and so maintaining balance. Our consciousness-nature has developed out of the PARTS perspective of our species-nature and as such is (a) more precise in details but (b) still 'child-like' in understanding what is going on. ;-)


>
> So we're back to the beginning, and its all a mind game.
> That it works, it surely does, that it helps us grow, its
> also uncontestable. But there is nothing, and no one giving
> us the answers. We are making the questions and the answers
> ourselves, and that for me is the final conclusion.
>

Correct. But recognise the differences in species-nature and consciousness-nature.

Chris.
 

martin

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Hi Pedro,

Enough questions to keep half of the planet busy for the next thousand years!
I wonder what Seth would have to say about it. He would probably point out that our "official" concepts are far too limited in this case, as in many other cases.

Speaking about Seth (do you know him?), he apparently was a "high being" that - yes! - took special interest in our personal lives.
And, if I remember correctly, the first contact between Seth and Jane Roberts (who later became his medium) was established through a simple oracular device (a oui-ja-board).
They could have used Tarot cards or the I Ching.

Have to eat now, more later perhaps ...

Martin
 

lenardthefast

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Pedro

Excellento! Bravo!! Great encapsulisation. Loved it!

Michael

You sly fox, you are not the stuffy Brit schoolmaster after all!

Namaste,
Leonard
hex04.gif
 

frandoch

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Leonard

Thank you for the 'fox' - I have a fox run through my garden - late at night I can sit on my porch and a young wild dog fox will pass through and honour me with his presence and let me feed him from my hand - such trust is awesome.

Sly - Nah.

Stuffy - Nah.

Brit - No - English

Schoolmaster - Was.

I'll be reasonable and give you one out of five - not bad.

Namaste,

Michael F.
 
Y

yellowblue

Guest
hmmmm...

Any body else here get the feeling that life is the Tower of Babel? The words and the parts we're working on get in the way.

Deb
 
Y

yellowblue

Guest
BTW, this wasn't meant as rude or derogatory. It just seems that everyone is one is on the same page, just catching the nuances differently and associating words differently, and working through different parts of the whole [Chris ; )], in a different paragraph.

When we work through areas to clarify in a way we can relate, we cast out the net, and draw back in the catch. It's amazing, you know. We are all working for the same haul of fish, the same treasure. And it really seems, IMHO that most people here are on a fairly equal footing. But because we're in the tower of babel, all these expressions help each of us interpret (via association) the whole through bits and pieces of each correspondence here.

You know, some have an astounding association with the Yi and eastern philosophy. Others, it is too round and we grasp while knowing the underlying truths, principles. How does east meet west??? This is the tower of Babel. And all of us are the bridges.

And that is a beautiful thing. And I think if we are open we are so lucky for all the beautiful individuals and their expressions.

Love,
Deb
 
Y

yellowblue

Guest
And this is really strange. Reading and posting in this thread images of recently buried dreams come abruptly to mind. I'm vividly recally snatches of recent dreams which I'm just at this moment querying.

1. garages (with boundaries definitive walls), separated (disassociated) from the "main" house. No view.

2. rooms (a high rise (over 50 some stories)developement where framing [wood and steel] is still in progress and a 270 degree view is still available. Sitting on precursory flooring with framing (steel now) in place very much with a 270 degree towering view.

3. hmmmm the third vision/view in my dream was in mind but deludes me just at this moment...

Deb
 

chrislofting

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HI Deb,

you wrote:
> hmmmm...
>
> Any body else here get the feeling that life is the Tower of
> Babel? The words and the parts we're working on get in the
> way.
>

Correct. The 'one language' spoken before the tower was that of objects and relationships, what ALL neuron-dependent lifeforms use to communicate, the brain of the zebra fish makes the same generic distinctions as our brains do - thus we all have a sense of 'wholeness' and at the species level non-verbal communication is through indication and implication - you need to be in the context to communicate that context by pointing or 'huff and puff' etc etc

The tower reflects the development of consciousness, the ability to communicate in detail and so precisely. The price has been that varied number of terms possible for that one sense of 'wholeness'!

The advantage of the precision the spoken/written word is that it allows one to roll up the context of a story and take it with you to any place on the planet and un-roll it and elicit the same or similar experiences for the new audience. Our consciousness reflects an advancement in evolution where we can refine instincts through the use of imagination, our consciousness can 'set off' our neurology in 'as if' mode and so we can learn habits, refine them etc without actually having an experience other than imagining it.

The confusion of the precision of our consciousness-nature vs the holistic focus of our species-nature is the cause of paradox where our consciousness-nature focuses on PARTS and the exclusive OR (A XOR B) and our species-nature focuses on WHOLES and total integration (A AND B). Our species-nature will thus 'see' a complex line drawing, our consciousness-nature will zoom-in and 'see' two objects trying to share the one space at the same time! e.g. The necker cube paradox - see other examples in http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/paradox.html

As we start to understand our species-nature so we start to understand the differences, and the sameness, in communications, we recognise that LOCAL conditions will generate their own language but that all of these terms are metaphors and analogies for what the species-nature deals with, objects and relationships aka differentiations and integrations aka nouns and verbs etc etc (and so we get mixing where, for example, a verbal noun is a gerund, iow a word ending in 'ing', and the I Ching can be called the 'Book of -ings'). Understand the generic properties of our species-nature and understanding specialisations becomes easier in that we can make some base-level, species-nature determined, assumptions about what is being represented in the specialisation.

The ease with which the I Ching links to any context reflects the mapping of basic brain information processing to recursion of a dichotomy (you will need to get into the IDM material for details on this). Thus there are a set of generic qualities that map to the trigrams, hexagrams, dodecagrams of the I Ching (as given in the "Species I Ching" thread). Our consciousness will 'ground' those generics with a particular context and relabel the generics to reflect that specific relationship and so allow us to be very precise in communicating details of that context.

If we did not have an education system, each generation would *instinctively* derive their own language (creole form) - they still do to some degree where each generation has a peer-oriented manner of communication that uses terms 'foreign' to the parents etc. BUT the language is in the form of labels, the re-labelling of the invarient set of generic qualities we use as a species to communicate such that all languages are translatable but with local 'nuances' that add colour at the specialist level.

Thus every individual can generate their own language, as do twins, families, general collectives. It is consensus, our species-nature of socialisation, that forces conformity (see hex 60 - it is about standardisations, hex 59 relates as well re dispelling illusions, lifting the 'fog').

The advantage of the I Ching etc is that it allows contact with our species-nature language, the generic qualities that transform into emotions and on into words and so allow the sharing of feelings regardless of local lingo. IOW the feelings, the qualities, encoded in the hexagrams etc are qualities hard-coded to varying degrees in all neuron-dependent lifeforms. We can in fact trace these qualities back to the beginnings of the Universe -

see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/symmetry.html

The religious texts of the past are in fact sources of rich metaphors to describe reality - as in the story of the Tower of Babel. Science is 'demystifying' some of this but religions prefer to keep to their original metaphors - for example, we know that our instincts/habits are encoded into the input areas of neurons. This allows them to work as filters and so allow context to PUSH us. Our consciousness has had no idea about any of this such that a sense of being 'guided' or 'driven' that can come when a species-level instinct is set-off by something in the immediate context can lead to some amazing 'rationalisations' about what is going on - see for example this page re a Rabbi talking about the properties and methods of 'angels' -

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/angels.html


Chris.
 
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yellowblue

Guest
OH... the third dream image just came back into recall...

a freeway/ highway flowing but with congested traffic. exits/offramps not an issues... just flowing (more slowly than usual) but congestd traffic.

Oh, btw, the steel steel framing beams were of course bright red/orange, but in all of these dreams everything else was in greytone or sepia.

Wierd...

Deb
 

chrislofting

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HI Deb,

You wrote:
> How
> does east meet west??? This is the tower of Babel. And all
> of us are the bridges.
>

Sure - we are all 'specialists' and so generate our own terms for generic feelings that are sourced at the general level of our species-nature. thus 'east meets west' when there are no distinctions and that level is at the physiological that includes the unconscious, hard-coded, sets of qualities that all neuron-dependent lifeforms use to communicate. the Chinese feeling of 'wholeness' is the same as that of the Caucasian, the differences are in what is that feeling associated with as well as the degrees of precision etc., thus some languages are strongly into labels, e.g. English is overloaded with verbs to ensure 'precision', the focus is on universals, everything is labelled, whereas other languages depend more on context to aid in giving precision.

The universal brain is revealed when we find that the brain patterns of Japanese raised in Western countries is 'Western' as is the brain pattern of Westerners raised to speak Japanese 'Japanese'. There are expressions in Finnish and Hungarian that are not directly translatable into Indo-European languages in that they are 'diffuse' terms, more 'wave-like' than 'particle-like' so translation is at the level of approximations.

We find that the manner in which you think will influence your decisions etc such that overly-precise modes of reflection/communication will inevitably lead to decisions that favour replacement as the solution to problems. Tone down the intensity, the precision, and 'suddenly' decisions include notions of integration rather than replacement. See for example my page on Hegel's attempts to justify the supremecy of the State but using 'precise', universal terms etc - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/howthink.html


> And that is a beautiful thing. And I think if we are open
> we are so lucky for all the beautiful individuals and their
> expressions.
>

sure - they reflect parts of the whole. The issues come about when one part tries to assert its specialist language as the whole. To understand our species-nature we have to sum all of the parts but in doing so we move to a level that can be too generic! -- so we seek balance, the middle position, the most flexible where individual identity is still maintained but so is species identity ;-)

Chris.
 
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yellowblue

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Hi Chris : )))))

yes, yes!!!! All that you have written/responded to clarify my thoughts and what I am trying to say!!! Do you know what a blessing it is to be understood???

I am so happy!!

Yes it is the specialist (individual) language vs, than the whole language (superficial vs. subliminal (whole) language)!!!

Now I am feeling better, and finding an outside reflection to my thoughts. Thank you for your thoughts, confirmations...!!

excited!!!

Deb
 
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yellowblue

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Chris,

Aren't we talking about spatiallity and relativeness here in both your links on symmetry and angels??

The dark night becoming day and the blending that happens between those two points.. that almost incomprehensible point. It reminds me of hexagram 55 line 2 and line 5...

Deb
 
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yellowblue

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Also, this just springs to mind... Martin Buber's "I and Thou"... rather contraversial and weighty, but a strong pointing, or rather differentiation that can bring accumulation
Deb
 
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yellowblue

Guest
Chris--

Just reread your responses and the light bulb finally went on... : ) Those darn words keep interupting the flow of juice!!! interuptions=reconfigurations to get there...

Thanks,
Deb
 

malka

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Wow -- thank you for the richness. I'm so very glad to have found all of you!

Blessings,
Malka
 

dannyl

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Excuse for not reading a fraction of this thread - I'm at work, please forgive me. But if I pick up the inferences correctly, are you saying that the I Ching just operates via a species of "pattern recognition", and there's no "magic", synchroncity or whatever you want to call it at work? This is completely at odds with my experience anyway.

Will try and digest the rest of the thread later on.
 

dannyl

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My apologies ? I?ve just gone back and read Pedro?s opening post all the way through and get the message. Great post, I think you make a lot of really good points and am slightly embarrassed about my terse response above ? that?s what I get from cherry picking bits out of it.(Perhaps that was aimed more at Chris). To expand on my post above I don?t have a problem in believing that there is some weird unexplained process at work through the Yi ? and occasionally in other parts of my life ? but it seems to be about challenging me and making me grow rather than just giving me what I want (or think I want ).
 

chrislofting

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Hi Deb,

you wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> Aren't we talking about spatiallity and relativeness here in
> both your links on symmetry and angels??
>
> The dark night becoming day and the blending that happens
> between those two points.. that almost incomprehensible
> point. It reminds me of hexagram 55 line 2 and line 5...
>

diversity does introduce relativity in perceptions - what are terrorists to one source are freedom fighters to another ;-)

Line 2 of 55 -
"[Apparent Abundance]. Midday: inspecting a grain bin, proceedings lead to doubts and anger. Truthfulness [is suddenly] shown[/blurted out]. Favourable." [Innocence and unexpected.]

Line 5 of 55 -
"[Approaching perfection (reach the zenith)]. One receives rewards and praise. Favourable." [Implies one is approved of, i.e. a mirror for others to see what they wish].

These, as are experiences of angels etc reflect (!) a focus on expressions, immediate interpretations from consciousness 'free' of any understanding of what is behind those expressions. Line 2 focuses on issues of apparent expression where closer examination shows otherwise such that the 'truth' will suddenly be expressed. Line 5 gets into the theme of consensus re what others interpret of you, 'abundance of praise'.

55 overall reflects diversity but also 'fog' when related to its structural opposite 59 where the focus is on dispelling illusions, lifting the 'fog'. Thus understanding our neurocognitive processes is a form of establishing absolutes 'behind' the relativity. In the tradional sequence 55 pairs with 56 where in 56 the focus is on a sense of 'firm belief' within all of the diversity, a sense of loyalty to something regardless of the distractions (that includes loyalty even in distant lands etc)

55 reflects integration at the particular level where clear differentiation is 'weak' in that there is too much, it all becomes 'noise', when compared to 59 that reflects differentiation at the particular level, the making of the 'point', the dispersion of the 'fog'.

The link I supplied that focused upon symmetry makes the point that regardless of what scale we look at we will always make the distinctions of differentiations/objects/hard-points/fermions vs integrations/relationships/soft-points/bosons. The LABELS will be relative but their underlying form will be absolute, based on our species-level distinctions of objects (the WHAT, the differentiated) and relationships (the WHERE, the integrated in that we require coordinates) Thus the list of different labels that reflect the same generic properties - see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/idm007a.html

Our species-nature has its roots in relationships, in the 'bosonic' perspective, the IMPLICIT whole, the unspeakable whole, the realm of symmetry, of no distinctions of highs and lows, no exaggerations in that species and universe are integrated.

Our consciousness-nature has its roots in objects, in the 'fermionic' perspective, the EXPLICIT 'whole', the speakable 'whole', the realm of asymmetry, the binary, of sharp distinctions of highs and lows, of rich exaggerations where each is conscious and so focuses on differentiating oneself to assert identity. Thus our consciousness-nature does reflect issues of 55 in the context of diversity in expression and the seeking of personal clarity through dispelling 'illusions' - the problem being that we all work from 59 as such and so reflect diversity that can cause illusions! We need to be wary, learn to be discerning, quality control - the realm of mountain ;-)

What is noteworthy is that innovations come out of specialisations in that the intense focus of energy destabilises things and we enter the realm of complexity/chaos and so the realm of 'emergence'. See the notion of the Transcendence function in the IDM material (or read the 'lite' essay re the Dance of the Neurons - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/ideal.html )

There is a very interesting property here in that within the realm of the boson, the realm of symmetry, integration, one is WITHIN a whole such that there are no such concepts as time and distance, all there is is degrees of resonance and so correlation - concepts common to psychic processes as well as interpretations in quantum mechanics. The overall integration focus means 'all is linked together' and that will affect our interpretations of reality BUT there are some interesting findings re identical twins seperated at birth, cancer cells seperated into different collectives, and the cutting of crystals along their 'natural' X/Y axis. There is in this something dealing with purity and a sense of 'connectedness' involved. These are archetypal concepts reflected in the areas of alchemy etc and into such concepts as androgyne - but then note that the brain's method in deriving meaning can create these patterns we then detect! - we need to be wary! ;-)

Since the basic method of deriving meaning is using recursion so the whole is reflected in all parts, IOW all parts are 'wholes' but in relationship to a greater whole and as such reflect properties of wholeness that our consciousness picks up such that we can work from a hexagram as if a whole etc etc

Each part therefore acts as a point of origin and so opens up relativistic concepts when we focus on consciousness working this way - which it does due to its high precision on details etc. Our *species* nature on the otherhand is absolute in that we all share the same *generic* sense of 'whole', of 'part', etc

Thus to lift the fog of relativistic interpretations we have to go extremely 'general', to the level of the species as a whole where the sensory systems of the species define reality. ANYTHING 'outside' of that realm will be interpreted from WITHIN that realm such that we well see paradox where anything outside that realm will appear as an oscillation when we focus upon it - it will oscillate between 'object' state and 'relationship' state. See the page on paradox processing for more on this - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/paradox.html (note that the oscillation mentioned reflects how our parts-oriented consciousness deals with integrated systems, we will first see one element and then a 'jump' to the other etc)

The more parts oriented one becomes so the more one 'cuts' the whole but we know from complexity/chaos theory that it is the *border* regions where we experience complexity/chaos such that the more cuts in the form of more labels so the more borders so the more destabilising the system - as we see socially today - too many differentiations, too many labels, too many 'mindless' or 'useless' inventions other than to serve the 'need' to transcend ;-)

Chris.
 

pedro

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Hey guys
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Thanks for such a wealth of comments and interesting ideas. I dont have time to reply to it all now, but I notice there is one point that went un-noticed and that is of most importance to me. It is interpretation of coincidences on the light of reincarnation, namely the theory that random events are indeed random, but we choose to be present at the right random times cause we needed that coincidence to happen.

I've expanded a little on that thought, and am quoting the relevant section (I'll have the revise article online soon):

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Or maybe our souls simply chose to incarnate into a specific life that would bring those so called coincidences. The one with the little pieces of wisdom we needed on the way. The directions were already on that particular path, we just chose to follow that, and only that, path. That was the path with the answers we needed to learn. This is not so hard to believe, after all I don't think astrology can be understood any other way. We choose the instant of time and space we will be born, so we will be forced to experience particularly important challenges, those we need in order to grow further. So the reason why Im getting this random hexagram right now, and yet by coincidence it is the most appropriate I could get (and here lies the abyss to pure skeptical thinking, its not any hexagram, but the right one) is because my soul chose to be born the very instant and place that would allow me to go by this clue right now.

Does this abdicate of free-will? No. Is it all laid ahead inexorably? Yes, but you can change it. Our souls tried to make it easier for us by choosing an astral configuration, that would bring the appropriate influences, the right energies, and that would face the right challenges, with the right clues at the right times. Like they have planned our roadtrip through existence. Yet, these are merely influences and suggestions, and it is still our job to do the right choices. It has been laid out for us in a manner we would be able to understand, but the work is not taken off our hands, we still have to choose the right actions, in order to fulfill the plan.

In every instant, the future is already laid ahead for you to follow without choice. If one does nothing, then that is indeed our predestined fate. Our fate depends only on our present karma, consequence of our past actions, and we cannot change our past actions. What we can do is to change our future karma, by our present actions of karmic significance. The moment we act on our karma we change our fate. We still have an inexorable fate laid ahead, but it is a new, different, one. We build our future by acting on the present (where else?).

It is true that knowledge is already available in its entirety, and we simply don't pay attention to what is not relevant right now. That could explain bumping into the right clues. But the fact that this finding of the right knowledge at the right time happens by accident, or by means of a so called "coincidence", suggests that there is indeed a plan, or purpose. It is not merely a trick of the ego, selecting what we should see, or a moment of inspiration we pay more attention to. That would be the case with non-significant coincidences (like looking at the watch and the time being 22:22:22), but not with significant ones. We know that these moments have a special meaning that goes beyond the ego realm, that they reflect a deep transformation occurring in the depths of our minds, where the ego cant penetrate, and we feel in our bones these are the key turning points in our lives.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, even if like Chris suggests, it can all be explained by a skeptical view of coincidences as moments when we pay attention, I think that although that is indeed the case for non-significant coincidences, with the significant coincidences (that act more as steps of change than simply colorful images our minds pick), the case is a different one. If those were still merely significant information our brain chose to see, then it would be deprived of purpose.

And I cannot accept such sterilized view of reality.

After all, I have no doubts now that reincarnation and karma are real laws, and that there is a divine nature in everything. Its not just the ego (sorry Chris
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), and its not just chance.

That is my humble opinion.
 

pedro

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Chris, in any case, it was both pleasant and reassuring to know that we could actually share some common ground of thought
happy.gif
I realised that many of the ideas you present and, dont mind me saying, seem somewhat obscure by the way you choose to present them (obviously most of us dont have the same impressive backgroud you posess that would allow us to aprehend those comncepts), are indeed the same paradoxes most of us faces, more or less inspired.
I decide to book a week off just to study the materials you sugest
happy.gif

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

One final question, do you believe at all in the truth as Buddha put it? Attachement, karma, reincarnation, etc? What is your view of our lifes purpose?
 

pedro

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Another think, I dont try to dispel the scholar's take on the Yi. Historical investigation is of the uttmost importantce, and works as Steve Marshal's are invaluable. My perspective is one of understanding oracles in general, of which the Yi represents the best structure ever devised, and so the best case study.
My reference to Steve's name, was more of a hope to have him comment on my wild ideas than anything else, and I've eliminated them from the revised version.
 

chrislofting

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Hi Dannyl,

you wrote:
> To expand on my post above I don?t
> have a problem in believing that there is some weird
> unexplained process at work through the Yi ? and
> occasionally in other parts of my life ? but it seems to be
> about challenging me and making me grow rather than just
> giving me what I want (or think I want ).
>

The idea re the I Ching is to recognise that in toto it reflects all of you as an individual and as an example of the species. As such the challenge is to learn about and refine all of the parts and so operate 'smoothly' in a context. This means a shift from a reactive perspective to a proactive perspective and then 'forget it all' and become reactive again, but now with more 'refined' responses.

That is what consciousness allows us to do, to use consciousness to IMAGINE situations that our 'mindless' senses will respond to and so aid in refining our responses to context.

Since the I Ching reflects 'all there is' in that it is a filter, so all you perceive will be as expressions of hexagrams, trigrams, yin/yang lines etc etc

The random element is useful in that since our consciousness is a PARTS perspective so sometimes we need to 'go big' and feel as if we are reviewing a situation from an 'objective' source - IOW apparently outside of consciousness. the random process can elicit a part that you may not have considered in reflections upon a situation BUT it is still a PART in that the moment is reflected as a whole in a sorted sequence of all 64 hexagrams, reflecting a 'distortion' of the whole to 'reflect' the situation. That indicates the depth at work in us all at unconscious levels.

Note my comments to Deb re 'resonance' in wholeness issues where that resonance can open-up a string of associations that really fit well to the existing situation (and its natural development into something else) such that one feels as if in touch with something 'mystical' - the experience of that connection is done through the PARTS oriented consciousness that considers the moment as a WHOLE. 'synchronistic' events (and Jung did NOT mean at the exact same time, just over a short time period) are reflected in 'holistic' moments where the sense of all is connected is reinforced. Thus the more 'integrationist' personas will experience these moments more than the 'differentiationist' personas - and the more you understand the linking of all parts of the I Ching into a whole so the more these sorts of moments can appear to occur. It has to do with the METHOD of interpretations and not necessarily 'reality' ;-)

The above said, there appears to be sharp distinctions between the everyday of the universe, an everyday that is materialist, and the everyday of the species, an everyday that is a hybrid of our consciousness, and so idealism, and the universe, and so materialism.

For the proactive individual, to understand the dynamics of objects and relationships that occur in reality means to be in a position to decide which context you wish to be in and so place yourself in that context. That can be challenging and so make you grow - see my proactive IC page - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icproact.html where the focus is on finding examples of a hexagram context and placing yourself in that context, to get it to 'push' you, set-off instincts that you then have to deal with, modify, refine.

Chris.
 

chrislofting

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Hi Pedro,

You wrote:
>
> Thanks for sharing your thoughts
>

your welcome ;-)

> One final question, do you believe at all in the truth as
> Buddha put it? Attachement, karma, reincarnation, etc? What
> is your view of our lifes purpose?
>

Why do you need a purpose? ;-)

The IDM focus is on our species-nature, identifying what came before. Consciousness has developed from that and as such is still developing so it can determine for itself where it wants to go but that will be a specialist choice.

The roots of spirituality, from a materialist perspective, seem to be in our species-nature, derived from two basic instincts:

(1) all sensations are potentially meaningful
(2) all sensations are potentially linked together

These species-nature instincts are instincts to PROTECT - we avoid becoming dinner for some other lifeform. The development of consciousness, and so a tool of exaggeration that we use to 'refine' our skills etc, means the term 'potentially' gets dropped and since all measurement is rooted in projection of ourselves so anthropomorphism takes over where the notion of 'linked together' gets into issues of 'gods' and a 'guiding hand' etc etc.

The development of consciousness also developed our sense of escape into a sense of context replacement and exploitation, we get hooked on the 'buzz' that comes with transcendence. Furthermore the 'exaggerating' part of our brain will build mountains out of molehills as we are driven to rationalise our experiences, even with minimal data (see that link on angels I sent earlier)

Note that OBEs (Out-of-body experiences) have a neurological source:

---------------------
Nature, 2002 Sep 19;419(6904):269-270

Neuropsychology: Stimulating illusory own-body perceptions.

Blanke O, Ortigue S, Landis T, Seeck M.

'Out-of-body' experiences (OBEs) are curious, usually brief sensations in which a person's consciousness seems to become detached from the body and take up a remote viewing position. Here we describe the repeated induction of this experience by focal electrical stimulation of the brain's right angular gyrus in a patient who was undergoing evaluation for epilepsy treatment. Stimulation at this site also elicited illusory transformations of the patient's arm and legs (complex somatosensory responses) and whole-body displacements (vestibular responses), indicating that out-of-body experiences may reflect a failure by the brain to integrate complex somatosensory and vestibular information.
---------------------

Also refer to my link I gave to Deb re the experience of 'angels' etc as the mind not understanding the power of context pushing the individual. Then also note the affect of temporal lobe 'thunderstorms' on the expression of individuals where these electrical storms in the brain can generate VERY vivid images/voices etc that, if not aware of what is going on, the mind will interpret as links to 'god' etc and elicit a change of life where the individual tries to re-create the intense, spiritual, experience.

Other issues of a sense of wholeness etc are covered in such concepts as the experience of neglect due to brain damage, where the individual has damaged parts of the brain dealing with full body image such that the person neglects one whole side of their body/expression etc.

For the potentials of consciousness becoming 'spiritual' see such texts as those of De Chardin and Tipler ("The Physics of Immortality") etc interesting speculations ;-) - as to my speculations re afterlife - I have none. Find out when I die! ;-)

Chris.
 

martin

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Guess what I did ...
I mailed all the posts in this thread to an ancient chinese friend of mine who has an account at <I'd better not reveal it>.com.

And he wrote back:

" Dear friend,
How it WORK?? What you mean? Don't understand question! What you want know?
We very much same. Joy, sorrow, need, longing, same. Human! Yet outlook different, huge different. Abyss!
You, look from there, you not understand us.
We look from here, not understand you.
Is as it is.
Should have good laugh, both don't know!
Laugh same, meet in laugh!
biggrin.gif


All best!

PS Thank for emoticon
biggrin.gif

Will send to other friends in time.
"
 

davidl

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Hi Pedro
Quote
"The first question one asks is where do the answers come from? I try to refrain from stating it (obviously not enough), out of respect for other peoples beliefs, but it seems to me that most people expose their credulity more than anything else, when they talk about the Yi as some way to get answers directly from god, mysterious spirits, or whatever high-beings they imagine. These people often even think that these high-beings have some special interest in their existences, and link every odd occurrence in their lives to their manifestation. We all want some superior entity to come out of the skies and tell us what to do with our lives, and we expect that magic answer to come from the Yi. But that can only lead to disappointment. I admit I too have fallen under that fallacy, but now I realize it doesnt work that way. There is no need to bring other entities into the game, apart from the only real entity intervening in the process."

I understand that it is very difficult for anyone who has not experienced 'other' beings directly to come to terms with those that have. I personally have been aware of other beings since about the age of nine when a large very unhuman being appeared in front of me while I played a game of marbles at school. This being has been with me for all these years and it took about 25 years before I even told anyone of his existence. They also came up with words like fallacy, non credibility, dare I say madness. This fortunately did not make the slightest difference to me as this being (I call him Ari) had proved his value to me as a friend and ally in this life and continues to do so. You see Pedro , Ari is much more real to me than Pedro . Pedro is words on the internet, but I would never be accused of being mad to suggest that you may really exist.
I was taught as a child that the universe was populated by many beings. My friend Ari was sent specifically to teach me the ways of the 'merkabah' or 'merkavah'. This is our inbuilt light vehicle that allows us to travel alone or by joining up with other 'merkavah' to other places in this dimension or to other places in other dimensions. This
' merkavah' initiation and knowledge has been experienced for thousands of years and taught for thousands of years to those who cared to do the work . It is a lesser known area of kabbalistic teachings.
My experiences have led to me meeting and being aware of many dimensions of beings living in the same space as us and in other spaces in this universe. I am not alone in these experiences many have been documented over many hundreds of years.
The interesting thing about these experiences was that the Yi was suggested as a communication tool to gain assistance for my everyday problems and development outside my main area of training. It was considered to be the most usefull for life on Earth.
If you are interested and open to learning the ways of other species and intelligences then you must make a connection, develop relationships, gain trust. Similiar I would imagine to the explorers in the past on Earth. Same issues different levels.( You know Pedro, the Red Indians existed before the Europeans found them or believed they existed )And just as the issues and problems of the red man are pretty much the same as the white man these issues are universal. A being from another place or dimension is not necessarily superior.
The idea of the superior being solving our problems seems to be the problem you are having Pedro. But your superior being is called western logic or the scientific method. The new Gods of the world.
In many ways European 'logic' has caused us to forget much more than we knew and created huge gaps in the average persons awareness of the richness of life that exists just under the surface. (no pedro xray machines wont find it.)
Writing off the possible existence of other intelligences is I would say very unintelligent. Trying to explain systems like the Yi with western logic is like watching a mouse in one of those wheels in a cage madly running to get nowhere. Also not very intelligent. Not accepting that you receive help everyday from unseen hands is I feel a bit childish. Like the 3 year old who thinks milk comes from bottles.
Everyday you live because of what others have done, you dont have to be the 'big brave boy doing it all himself'.That is the biggest fallacy of western man, the greatest sickness.

The only thing stopping most people from being in contact with 'spirit' is their own superficial feelings of superiority, covering a layer of insecurity thrown over deep loneliness caused by cutting oneself off from their source of life, this achieved, by denial that their is a source other than themselves.

So stop the patronising, "I don't want to upset anyone" routine and prove to us that you 'exist', and that G-d and other intelligences don't . Using the 'European, scientific logic model' please. If you can't, then what the hell are you talking about ?
 

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