How long is a piece of Imagery?

[my_key]

I have just been having an interesting conversation with myself around the question 'When does Yi stop speaking to you?'.

My relationship with Yi started in a confused, foggy maze of words. This progressed to a maze of words and then to establishing clearer meaning being more easily related to the words. Study of cultural, philosophical, spiritual and 'technical' aspects of what lays behind the text brought increased alignment and connection of the meaning of the words (for me) and this seemed to be the catalyst for the imagery portrayed in the text to start having more of a say.

I soaked myself in the imagery for a good while, learning how better for me to hear the nuances of what was being 'spoken'. In this new world the elasticity of the imagery eventually begets symbolism. Symbolism carries new opportunities allowing greater artistic and poetic freedom for creating meaningful insight.

An example of this stretching might be with line 7.3. Initially the words are providing an image of corpses in a cart. This image might lead to another image forming of tea bags floating in a sea of cold tea in a grey teapot. Zooming out, creates yet another image. The tea pot can be seen nestling in the sand of a classical sun drenched desert island with a single palm tree in residence.

The image transforms and with each transformation maybe meaning has become better informed as well as the symbolism having flexed and become more vibrant. Symbolism suggested from a cart carrying corpses morphs into something more when viewed as a grey teapot on a desert island.

My conversation debated whether the imagery and symbolism of the stretched perspective at the end of the thread of imagery could, or even should, be a valid interpretation of 7.3, One school might say staying with the original image is where the message lies and more in keeping with a representation of Yi. Others might take the stance that the symbolism and imagery at the end of the stretch can be viewed as being a valid poetic interpretation of 7.3 through the linking images.

Or yet another perspective taken might even be that there are insights to be gained through the motion of the images and the symbolism that comes from this wider picture. Perhaps conveying more of a story or a longer narration, like the individual frames of a motion picture story board giving you glimpses of the most salient points of the story that is about to unfold in response to the question asked.

Interested to hear other peoples perspectives.

 

[surnevs]

For my part, I can't see how this whole thing with the I shouldn't be grounded in imagination.
Before written language, I think, the I was already there, handed on orally from diviner to diviner.
And here I'm on thin ice I know...
I think that the opening of it all, in the so-called King Wen arrangement, with the picture of a Dragon, tells a lot about how the words in the I should be taken: namely as metaphors... i.e. using our phantasy or using our ability to associate the keywords into other meanings than how they strictly have been written. An example: King. Receiving an answer with this word often seems absurd to a lot of us especially those of us living in places where kings simply aren't present. But a king is a leader and a leader is someone, anybody, in a position having a role concerning to guide, to advice, to have authority and so on.
A Dragon ! is traditionally known to be a creature with the ability to shift shape, appear anywhere, anytime, speak all tongues etc. etc. And I do think that this also counts for the imagination concerning the words in the text. As mentioned, when we read the text it'll be up to us to sort of "bow the phrases" into the reality in which we find ourselves situated.
Or something like this.
(Maybe I've missed something but do hope that some eventually occurring misspellings don't cause confusion )

 

[Trojina]

An example of this stretching might be with line 7.3. Initially the words are providing an image of corpses in a cart. This image might lead to another image forming of tea bags floating in a sea of cold tea in a grey teapot. Zooming out, creates yet another image. The tea pot can be seen nestling in the sand of a classical sun drenched desert island with a single palm tree in residence.

The image transforms and with each transformation maybe meaning has become better informed as well as the symbolism having flexed and become more vibrant. Symbolism suggested from a cart carrying corpses morphs into something more when viewed as a grey teapot on a desert island.

7.3 A teabag takes a well needed vacation and takes the teapot along for protection

 

[surnevs]

((for good order:
I wrote some terrible nonsense here yesterday evening that I deleted because it was written in a "deamon-drunk-aggressive-stupid" state of mind. Sorry))

 

[my_key]

Hi Trojina

7.3 A teabag takes a well needed vacation and takes the teapot along for protection

I am assuming that your stance on the matter is to stretch the imagery as far as you can stretch it. I loved the bright vibrant images and humour in your post.

In your words and images I saw one teabag, relaxing into his vacation by fishing from the beach. He seems to have been successful and caught some fish on his line:

1) The teapot becoming a symbol for protection. The teapot for me represented the cart or wagon in 7.3.

The cart has never featured at all in my image of 7.3. All I used to see was a pile of dead bodies tossed higgledy-piggledy into a high mound, blood spattered and gory. The cart never featured, other than a receptacle to throw then in. Now picking up this new thread of the cart providing protection for the corpses, I see confederate civil war soldiers, stacked neatly in two layers within the confines of the cart, all wrapped in white muslin shrouds that cover the ravages that the war inflicted on the bodies. A picture that represents a neat, tidy, respectful, honouring of the fallen rather than a hastily prepared and poorly managed removal of the dead. The chaotic treatment of the dead becomes more a picture based in purpose and order.

For me my understanding of 7.3 has been enriched. Thank you.

2) The vacation aspect. 7.3 speaks, perhaps, to the size of the growing mound of corpses and the consequences of not dealing with them. It's only at 7.4 that the teabags are in need of a retreat. What better location for a retreat than a sun-kissed desert island, blessed with the shade from a palm tree.

Maybe your stretching of the imagery has been supported by Yi still speaking about the connection of 7.3 to 7.4, and how easy it can be to slip, from one to the next when an alternative relaxed picture becomes available.

3) OMG a tsunami comes to the foreground of the stretched vision. Perhaps, it's about to roil over the beach, the teapot, and the palm tree, leaving a muddy dark residue. This is not a mistake, and is an opportunity to refresh the nature of the retreat under the bright leadership of the two suns.

Perhaps your randomly (?) selected final set of icons creates a picture for 7.5 which warns about allowing the corpses to morph into zombies and create havoc. Other energetic actions are necessary to prevent this. Karcher poetically comments 'Elder Son conducts the Legions, Younger Son carts the corpses' depicting how two suns are necessary to complete the picture and ensure the palm tree can grow and be nurturing of the surviving teabags despite all the mud strewn upon and around it by the tsunami.

Perhaps even a further extension -

((for good order:
I wrote some terrible nonsense here yesterday evening that I deleted because it was written in a "deamon-drunk-aggressive-stupid" state of mind. Sorry))

A picture painted by surnevs where the great prince issues the new commands and so receives the new mandate. No longer allowing the small to rule the roost. Correcting and bringing an eraser to the picture, that the small within have begun to draw. They are more than capable of sketching it out in full when left un attended and without leadership which illustrates 7.6 very vividly for me.

Thank you surnevs for uncovering one last stretch - Alfred Huang says in his commentary on 7.6

"We should search for the ancient wisdom between the lines and beyond the words"​

Of course this is only my own personal humorous (??? questionable) elasticising of the imagery being generated within this thread.

 

[my_key]

This thread extends further into Shared Readings HERE

 

[elllybellly]

Have you heard of TIME WORMS? Makes me think of the nude descending a staircase painting.

"Worm theorists believe that a persisting object is composed of the various temporal parts that it has. It can be said that objects that persist are extended through the time dimension of the block universe much as physical objects are extended in space."

Reminds me of animation : )

 

[my_key]

Hi banjomary

Have you heard of TIME WORMS? Makes me think of the nude descending a staircase painting.

Reminds me of animation : )

First the image, to keep the imagery expansion going visually. I take it this is the one.

Descending a Staircase By Marcel Duchamp​

I've not come across this art work before or time worms for that matter.

Reading the link you posted was fine to begin with

Perdurantism a philosophical theory of persistence and identity The debate over persistence currently involves three competing theories—one three-dimensionalist theory called "endurantism" and two four-dimensionalist theories called "perdurantism" and "exdurantism".

It may take a bit more reading and contemplation of the other 9/10ths of the page to get the full gist.


As I was reading, the image trail remained unbroken as through my veil of cognitive cloudiness the imaginal world created some symbolic recognition or understanding.

The film Cloud Atlas
The film Inception
The concept of Interbeing in Buddhism
The cover picture of George Harrison's 'All Things Must Pass' album (or it might just be the title of the song)
The regenerative nature of our organs and skeletons. e.g - Liver cells regenerate such that every 12 to 18 months we get a completely new liver. Apparently, I have had 40+ different livers in my time although they have all occupied the same space in my body.

Maybe those images paint a picture of all I need to know.

Take Care

 

[elllybellly]

Yeah! Thats the one. He was wanting to capture the feeling of double exposure. I mention animation because he painted this in early 1900’s, and its innovation really influenced him.
However after reading this more closely with your 5.6 post; I think you’re talking more about montage and filmmaking, and less about animation/time worms I use a similar process and feel like this is the nature and core of filmmaking - a moment in a story gives the correct imagery to communicate something to an audience.

To excuse my time worm, I initially imagined this “piece” of imagery endlessly morphing into something else through time, which made me think of this windows 98 screensaver,

combined with this masaki yuasa clip, which made me think of perdurantism.

I think this is a really fun question and totally valid. Have you thought of making your own iching imagery deck? It’s been a goal of mine since discovering the Yi.

 

[my_key]

Yeah! Thats the one. He was wanting to capture the feeling of double exposure. I mention animation because he painted this in early 1900’s, and its innovation really influenced him.

From my reading it seems like the picture cause a rift in the world of cubism. Apparently, cubes are meant to be stationary and not move down a stair case.....especially when they appear in an androgenous state and not appropriately attired in the latest cubist fashion.

However after reading this more closely with your 5.6 post; I think you’re talking more about montage and filmmaking, and less about animation/time worms I use a similar process and feel like this is the nature and core of filmmaking - a moment in a story gives the correct imagery to communicate something to an audience.

My 5.6 post was a while back and my interpretation today might carry a different weighting. That's what is so interesting about people sharing their insights it all adds to a growing awareness and a softening of perspectives.

There is a temporal aspect to any interpretation. The reading remains the same but the temporal element to a reading ensures that it morphs underneath the overarching banner of the reading. Something I interpreted 20 years ago is unlikely to have the same nuances. Like my liver it might have gone through 20 iterations in the time yet the words Yi gave are the same words.

At any point in those 20 years that I dipped back into the reading the story and imagery, while maybe slightly different, would be correct for that time. And most likely only correct for a period of time.

I'm not versed enough in film speak to know if this is montage, animation or some other film making or story telling.

I'm forming a foggy picture that this might be viewed as a restricted animation of a space in time which has been screen shot to capture a thematic interlude. Is that a montage?

To excuse my time worm, I initially imagined this “piece” of imagery endlessly morphing into something else through time, which made me think of this windows 98 screensaver,

combined with this masaki yuasa clip, which made me think of perdurantism.

Nothing to excuse about the time worm, from my perspective. The spark of the original imagery of this thread that may have been boosted by the 5:6 <> 9 reading is alive and kicking. Part of my contemplation at the start was does the trail of the image gifted by Yi in a reading ever stop. I'm getting a sense more now that it just keeps on going.
The readings compiled by AI (GPT4) bereft of prejudice and bias are worth a read HERE(post#61). The images it created are powerful.

Maybe your interpretation of 5.6 at the start, although different to mine was just another expression of the original image. Therefore your's is equally valid.

I think this is a really fun question and totally valid. Have you thought of making your own iching imagery deck? It’s been a goal of mine since discovering the Yi.

It's a nice thought, but I'm not sure that restricting someone else to holding my imaginal vision of a hexagram as an immutable origin of their readings is something I would want to do. It may not be that different from giving my version of a reading in Shared Readings, so it might be an idea to play with in 2024.

 

[elllybellly]

The chat GPT4 images for 5.6 are fascinating!

If it helps to add perspective… when I first met the yi 5 years ago I asked the standard “what is my purpose in life” question and got 5.6. TBH, it did feel disappointing at first, guess I thought I wanted one of the more impressive lines with gold or stars.. no pits But Id agree with this. I think the misattunement with reality is the pit, the guests are the reality checks, which would be speak with the yi? but in my experience the guests are way better than what I was imagining was going on.

I'm forming a foggy picture that this might be viewed as a restricted animation of a space in time which has been screen shot to capture a thematic interlude. Is that a montage?

I was just thinking of a standard movie montage, not totally clear on the question but I need to keep thinking about it!!

Part of my contemplation at the start was does the trail of the image gifted by Yi in a reading ever stop. I'm getting a sense more now that it just keeps on going.

I think this is a great way to describe a montage ^

 

[my_key]

If it helps to add perspective… when I first met the yi 5 years ago I asked the standard “what is my purpose in life” question and got 5.6. TBH, it did feel disappointing at first, guess I thought I wanted one of the more impressive lines with gold or stars.. no pits But Id agree with this. I think the misattunement with reality is the pit, the guests are the reality checks, which would be speak with the yi? but in my experience the guests are way better than what I was imagining was going on.

In the long term, 5.6 doesn't disappoint as a life purpose.
Karcher paints such vivid imagery for Hex 5.

'This is the Dragon and the Ghost River. Rushing water above dissolves direction and shape, while Heaven toils below, a spark of yang born at the centre of the yin, It is water over Metal; inner concentration that confronts outer danger through careful and joyous attending on events. The ideal Realising Person reflects this by joining with others to share the sacred feast. Work through joyous words to bring spirit to expression'

And specifically for 5.6

Attending. Enter the cave. The 'visitors' come without urging.
There are three coming towards you now.
Respect them and bring this to completion.
Wise Words! The Way opens.

and further comments

'This means that though the situation is nor appropriate, you do not let go of the Great.'

Life purpose without pits? That sounds like an impossibility. The visitors come without urging it seems, bringing their cloudy skies with them, and of course the incumbent silver linings.