Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
chrislofting
(deceased)
- Joined
- Nov 19, 1971
- Messages
- 394
- Reaction score
- 3
An issue was raised on Joseph Yu's I Ching list (http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/yijing_iching) re the number of questions one can ask of a situation etc. Joseph gave the 'traditional' answer:
> Hi,
>
> The answer is in Hexagram 4:
>
>
> If you ask again and again, it is considered an abuse
> of divination. You will not get an answer.
>
However there are alternative interpretations (the following is a copy of my reply to Joseph that may be of interest and open for discussion on this list):
--------------------------------
This is an acceptable but 'traditional' perspective. When you move to include the 3000 years of data acquired since the 10th century BC about understanding 'in here', and so our species nature, you have a model for deriving meaning that works like this:
(1) As a species-member we all have a closed set of generic meanings -e.g. we all share a sense of 'wholeness', 'partness' etc. This commonality, this sameness across all members of the species reflects what Jung called the "collective unconscious". Thus the species sense of wholeness is considered 'archetypal' and physiological, sociological, and psychological states will sum to determine what is considered a 'whole' in reality - IOW the archetype gets some local 'colour'.
In the particular specialisation we call the I Ching there are 4096 'archetypal' meanings compressed into 64 moving-line hexagrams. This is all extendable to 16+ million but there no need ;-) These meanings are VERY generic and as such, for our consciousness, are in need of some 'colour' to be useful.
(2) As a conscious species-member we have an open set of particular questions focused on using elements of a closed set of 'prompts' to elicit value - WHAT, WHO, WHICH, WHERE, WHEN, HOW, and WHY. These terms reflect what you brain does in deriving meaning at the unconscious level - it is all WHAT/WHERE and those terms are differentiated to reflect:
WHAT - WHO, WHICH (objects, differentiations)
WHERE - WHEN, HOW (relationships, integrations)
WHY - overall value judgment
All of our questions will reflect enquiries based on these generic concepts.
I can therefore (a) ask a question. (b) get a randomly selected response. (c) ask another question about somethingelse OR (d) loop on enquiring more details of the original response by simply asking ... WHAT, WHO, WHICH, WHERE, WHEN, HOW, and WHY!
I am slowly developing a chat bot that works off this. In principle the conversation could go on ad infinitum. Since the user sets the context (the original question) so all requests of 'what' or 'how' etc are automatically interpreted by the user as being applicable to the first question in general, or to the previous answer in particular. All the system does is randomly select a hexagram reply and the user will 'fit' the result into a relationship with the original question and from that will derive meaning.
Thus we get:
(Q) what is the future for me?
(A) hexagram 38
(Q) HOW?
(A) hexagram 45
(Q) WHEN?
(A) hexagram 23
(Q) WHY?
(A) hexagram 16
etc
etc
Since our consciousness-nature focuses on PARTS so EVERY hexagram of the WHOLE of the I Ching is applicable to ANY question. IOW the moment you ask a question your brain will superimpose the I Ching 'over' the question and as such the I Ching works as a filtering system.
Every hexagram (or trigram or dodecagram, depending on what scale you wish to work with) is a PART that we interpret as a whole - our consciousness-nature forces that and so we can experience paradox when consciousness-nature and species-nature are not differentiated clearly (our species-nature works holistically through instincts and habits and one of those instincts is a general filtering system that gets specialised through labelling and so generates such systems as the I Ching).
One of the prime demands by any 'fundmentalist' system is that of devotion to that system, total and absolute trust, and that means 'dont ask any (or not too many) questions' ;-) (gets into concepts of 'childmindedness' and the acceptance of the seemingly 'magical'. Ask too many questions and you start to see 'behind' the facade.)
The usefulness of the I Ching as such is in the fact that it DOES reflect the basic qualities we use to derive meaning and can be used PROACTIVELY to refine the individual (e.g. see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icproact.html ) as well as enquire on day-to-day issues (e.g. see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/proact3.html )
The advantage of the 'random' method is that, once you recognise that the WHOLE of the I Ching applies to your question, so each randomly-derived hexagram reflects an aspect of the whole you may not have considered in previous analysis of the 'problem'. (it is not easy going through all of the hexagrams and fleshing-out their expressions in your problem - but you can use the proactive approach to generate a sequence of the 64 hexagrams from 'best fit' to 'worst fit' and then just analyse the first few in that sequence. Eventually you will 'know' these patterns and no longer need reference to the I Ching 'externally' ;-).
Also note that you MUST have a question to get the IC to work for you. If you treat the system 'flippantly' or in 'play' then you will get 'noise' - the answers will be meaningless in that the need is to entangle the I Ching as a filter with a question for your conscious and unconscious to work together with the IC to 'solve' the problem. This reflects the properties of one's attention system in that focusing attention on a question will automatically 'encode' in that question the properties of the I Ching. If the attention is not focused enough, if it is too 'casual' then you will not get 'meaning'.
Chris.
> Hi,
>
> The answer is in Hexagram 4:
>
>
> If you ask again and again, it is considered an abuse
> of divination. You will not get an answer.
>
However there are alternative interpretations (the following is a copy of my reply to Joseph that may be of interest and open for discussion on this list):
--------------------------------
This is an acceptable but 'traditional' perspective. When you move to include the 3000 years of data acquired since the 10th century BC about understanding 'in here', and so our species nature, you have a model for deriving meaning that works like this:
(1) As a species-member we all have a closed set of generic meanings -e.g. we all share a sense of 'wholeness', 'partness' etc. This commonality, this sameness across all members of the species reflects what Jung called the "collective unconscious". Thus the species sense of wholeness is considered 'archetypal' and physiological, sociological, and psychological states will sum to determine what is considered a 'whole' in reality - IOW the archetype gets some local 'colour'.
In the particular specialisation we call the I Ching there are 4096 'archetypal' meanings compressed into 64 moving-line hexagrams. This is all extendable to 16+ million but there no need ;-) These meanings are VERY generic and as such, for our consciousness, are in need of some 'colour' to be useful.
(2) As a conscious species-member we have an open set of particular questions focused on using elements of a closed set of 'prompts' to elicit value - WHAT, WHO, WHICH, WHERE, WHEN, HOW, and WHY. These terms reflect what you brain does in deriving meaning at the unconscious level - it is all WHAT/WHERE and those terms are differentiated to reflect:
WHAT - WHO, WHICH (objects, differentiations)
WHERE - WHEN, HOW (relationships, integrations)
WHY - overall value judgment
All of our questions will reflect enquiries based on these generic concepts.
I can therefore (a) ask a question. (b) get a randomly selected response. (c) ask another question about somethingelse OR (d) loop on enquiring more details of the original response by simply asking ... WHAT, WHO, WHICH, WHERE, WHEN, HOW, and WHY!
I am slowly developing a chat bot that works off this. In principle the conversation could go on ad infinitum. Since the user sets the context (the original question) so all requests of 'what' or 'how' etc are automatically interpreted by the user as being applicable to the first question in general, or to the previous answer in particular. All the system does is randomly select a hexagram reply and the user will 'fit' the result into a relationship with the original question and from that will derive meaning.
Thus we get:
(Q) what is the future for me?
(A) hexagram 38
(Q) HOW?
(A) hexagram 45
(Q) WHEN?
(A) hexagram 23
(Q) WHY?
(A) hexagram 16
etc
etc
Since our consciousness-nature focuses on PARTS so EVERY hexagram of the WHOLE of the I Ching is applicable to ANY question. IOW the moment you ask a question your brain will superimpose the I Ching 'over' the question and as such the I Ching works as a filtering system.
Every hexagram (or trigram or dodecagram, depending on what scale you wish to work with) is a PART that we interpret as a whole - our consciousness-nature forces that and so we can experience paradox when consciousness-nature and species-nature are not differentiated clearly (our species-nature works holistically through instincts and habits and one of those instincts is a general filtering system that gets specialised through labelling and so generates such systems as the I Ching).
One of the prime demands by any 'fundmentalist' system is that of devotion to that system, total and absolute trust, and that means 'dont ask any (or not too many) questions' ;-) (gets into concepts of 'childmindedness' and the acceptance of the seemingly 'magical'. Ask too many questions and you start to see 'behind' the facade.)
The usefulness of the I Ching as such is in the fact that it DOES reflect the basic qualities we use to derive meaning and can be used PROACTIVELY to refine the individual (e.g. see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icproact.html ) as well as enquire on day-to-day issues (e.g. see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/proact3.html )
The advantage of the 'random' method is that, once you recognise that the WHOLE of the I Ching applies to your question, so each randomly-derived hexagram reflects an aspect of the whole you may not have considered in previous analysis of the 'problem'. (it is not easy going through all of the hexagrams and fleshing-out their expressions in your problem - but you can use the proactive approach to generate a sequence of the 64 hexagrams from 'best fit' to 'worst fit' and then just analyse the first few in that sequence. Eventually you will 'know' these patterns and no longer need reference to the I Ching 'externally' ;-).
Also note that you MUST have a question to get the IC to work for you. If you treat the system 'flippantly' or in 'play' then you will get 'noise' - the answers will be meaningless in that the need is to entangle the I Ching as a filter with a question for your conscious and unconscious to work together with the IC to 'solve' the problem. This reflects the properties of one's attention system in that focusing attention on a question will automatically 'encode' in that question the properties of the I Ching. If the attention is not focused enough, if it is too 'casual' then you will not get 'meaning'.
Chris.