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How to continue with a woman - Part II

karl

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Hî Chris and anybody else who reads this,

I had to open a new conversation to continue our discussion. I had big problems to read the long discussion. Needed almost 10 attempts to get to the end of your message. Will reply to it tomorrow.

Today I reviewed my book about MBTI to get more clear about the personality type of the woman I'm pursueing. I think, it's almost sure, that she's an ENFJ. But there are a few facts that point to ENTP or ENFP. My ex-wife is probably ESFJ, although she tested as ENFJ. She didn't like the whole concept of MBTI, but my children urged her to do the test. So there's no danger of repeating the past.

I did some castings at the website you suggested:

Firstly I assumed, that she tries to seduce me methodically. There are a couple of things, that happened, which could be interpreted like pointing to that.

So I answered the questions as follows:

For me: values oriented/proactive not sure/what will be

For her: facts oriented/proactive/what will be

Result: 44/06 (coming to meet/conflict)

I know meanwhile, that conflict means compromise for hex 06, but anyway I don't understand the outcome. If she wants me and I want her, there will be no compromise. Everybody gets exactly what he or she wants.

Second attempt. She merely likes me and wants to be friends, without thinking about more, but also not excluding it.

I answered as follows:

For me: value oriented/proactive not sure/what will be

For her: value oriented/proactive not sure/what could be

Result: 18/07 (working on what has been spoiled/the army)

I did not yet try to interpret these hexagrams myself. I also don't know, if my answers to the questions will describe the situation accurately. I will think about that tomorrow.

Karl
 

chrislofting

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Hi Karl,

you wrote:
>
> Firstly I assumed, that she tries to seduce me methodically.
> There are a couple of things, that happened, which could be
> interpreted like pointing to that.
>
> So I answered the questions as follows:
>
> For me: values oriented/proactive not sure/what will be
>
> For her: facts oriented/proactive/what will be
>
> Result: 44/06 (coming to meet/conflict)
>
> I know meanwhile, that conflict means compromise for hex 06,
> but anyway I don't understand the outcome. If she wants me
> and I want her, there will be no compromise. Everybody gets
> exactly what he or she wants.
>

...which is a form of compromise in that the outcome is coexistence rather than replace of, total 'take over' of one by the other. The role of COMPETITIVE EXCHANGE focuses on REPLACEMENT rather than COEXISTENCE. The compromise limits the replacement but it is still 'competitive'. In the octet of water-based hexagrams, water in the lower position reflects a focus on containment; in the upper it reflects a focus on control, put up a boundary to contain/protect what is within.

In your enquiry, the local focus is on 44, a focus on being persuaded, seduced / on persuading, seducing. The context is 05, a focus on waiting for the 'right' moment to come along to exploit an opportunity and that is distorting 44. IOW if left long enough so the response will become 06, needing to compromise re the 'right' moment; iow one can wait too long and eventually have to compromise - the outcome, given time, is inevitable.

44 reflects an exaggeration in seduction, the context in the hexagram is the trigram of wind and that means acts of cultivation. The text in the hexagram is the trigram of heaven and that means singlmindedness. singmindedness operating in a context of cultivation reflects the 'hard sell' at work - so this fits your assertions re being 'methodical' in seduction.

The questions as such have given you the structures involved the relationship. To defuse, to neutralise, the context of 05 introduce 35 as an alternative context - bring something 'into the light' to make some progress - but not too much or else you go beyond the neutralising. This process will leave 44 as the main focus in that the change has been held-off.

> Second attempt. She merely likes me and wants to be friends,
> without thinking about more, but also not excluding it.
>
> I answered as follows:
>
> For me: value oriented/proactive not sure/what will be
>
> For her: value oriented/proactive not sure/what could be
>
> Result: 18/07 (working on what has been spoiled/the army)
>

18 reflects correcting errors, making things 'right', fixing the mistakes/corruptions/neglects of our ancestors/past. Thats interpretable as making YOU 'right' - issues of refinement etc! ;-) The 07 outcome means a context of 08. 3 and 6 are the changing lines of 18 to 07.

Thus a focus on making things 'right' is being distorted by a context of passive attraction to gather together, the outcome of which, eventually, is the formalisation of that gathering, of that massing, where the group becomes uniform in expression but rigidly so. 08 in its extreme state reflects cult formation in the early days, charismatic, passive, 'leader' who attracts a following. Membership means a loss of personal identity for the sake of the group (the trigrams reflect "with/from devotion to another/others comes control").

Over time this 'casual' grouping becomes 'hard', puts on a uniform to make the sameness visual and so enforced, look takes over from mind in that the need develops to clearly identify the group - we move from a context of devotion to another to a focus on containment and control - egalitarianism starts to take on some aristocratic aires that focus on establishing control over the group. - we start to wear badges of rank etc and medals for 'good conduct' etc - hierarchy develops.

(the cycle of stimulus/response means that when 07 becomes the context, the stimulus, over time it 'softens' to elicit a response of 08 as time goes on in that 07 loses its coherence, its rigid formations etc, becomes 'soft')

helpful?

Chris.
 

karl

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Hi Chris,

yes, this is helpful. I think I'm beginning to understand.

>> Firstly I assumed, that she tries to seduce me methodically.
>> So I answered the questions as follows:
>
> For me: values oriented/proactive not sure/what will be
>
> For her: facts oriented/proactive/what will be
>
> Result: 44/06 (coming to meet/conflict)

>...which is a form of compromise in that the
>outcome is coexistence rather than replace of,
>total 'take over' of one by the other.

This makes sense, in that neither me nor her at present knows, whether the other strives for a short-term or a long-term relationship. So even if both of us have the same goal, the result could by both of us perceived as a compromise by the other.

>In your enquiry, the local focus is on 44, a
>focus on being persuaded, seduced / on
>persuading, seducing. The context is 05, a
>focus on waiting for the 'right' moment to come
>along to exploit an opportunity and that is
>distorting 44.

Does this mean, that actually 44 is a situation, where I want to stay, but the context pushes me towards an unwanted conflict/compromise? Why should I stay in 44? I don't want to seduce her forever/or she me. Iwant a relationship or love affair with her, so there must be a change.

Another question: Does this result describe the situation from my point of view or from hers or from both? Is it possible to derive her context? If I answer the 3 questions for her on the page 'proact3' the same as I did on 'proact4', the result is:

hex 01 (The Creative)

>singmindedness operating in a context of
>cultivation reflects the 'hard sell' at work -
>so this fits your assertions re
>being 'methodical' in seduction.

It's just an assumption based on a couple of observations. Anything she does could as a single action also be interpreted in other ways. In summary it looks a bit methodical. A methodical seducer tries to maintain a consistent self-portrait to draw someone in, but might show inconsistencies in unguarded moments.
There was one situation, when I reacted differently than she expected (I seemed to pull back from her point of view), with the result, that she got nervous and acted hectically thereafter. Another situation was, when during a conversation with her, I mentioned, that when I brought her drunk female friend home after her party (what she asked me to do), her female friend tried to kiss me in my car. She was completely shocked. Her face froze. I said, that I rejected her and she commented "You have limits!".

>The questions as such have given you the
>structures involved the relationship. To
>defuse, to neutralise, the context of 05
>introduce 35 as an alternative context - bring
>something 'into the light' to make some
>progress - but not too much or else you go
>beyond the neutralising. This process will
>leave 44 as the main focus in that the change
>has been held-off.

You mean the change into 06. From this I assume, that you consider 06 not as a desirable outcome. But where will this go, if I try to stay in 44 forever?

>> Second attempt. She merely likes me and wants to be friends,
>> without thinking about more, but also not excluding it.
>>
>> I answered as follows:
>>
>> For me: value oriented/proactive not sure/what will be
>>
>> For her: value oriented/proactive not sure/what could be
>>
>> Result: 18/07 (working on what has been spoiled/the army)
>>

I thougt about this possible situation more and think, that my answers to the questions weren't appropriate. Next attempt:

For me: value oriented/proactive not sure/what will be

For her: value oriented/proactive not sure/what will be

An explanation of my answers:

She was very proactive from the beginning. I was reactive at first, but got proactive, when I sensed her clear interest. At a later stage I got too proactive (like you said 'I was trying too hard') and went into the 27 context. This is something what I generally do, when my interest in a woman rises above a critical line. The outcome of 62 from that is something I would call supplication or putting her on a pedestal, a direct result of neediness and not a good foundation for a relationship. When I tried too hard, she still stayed in control and proactive. She just ignored some of my proposals, kept her own pace and made own proposals.

For me it was value-oriented from the beginning, because I liked her and sensed a kindred spirit. As an INTP, I tend to overanalyze;-), but still the facts I got were diffuse and sometimes contradicting. For her, I think it is too value-oriented. A couple of things she said before knowing much details about me, point to that. She 'recognized' me in a sense.

And I think, for both of us, it is still about 'what will be, because, despite the recent revelations, there is no doubt, that we will meet again. I hope I understood the third question correctly. 'What could be' means, that I'm irresolutely about getting into action, doesn't it?

The result from this was: 57/29 (The Gentle/The Abysmal).

Some comments and questions to your last message in the other discussion:

>If we focus on the hexagram level, the
>relationship of text to context will reflect
>the 'context pushes' function. This reflects
>what our neurology does in the form of encoding
>instincts/habits into the unconscious levels
>and so conserve energy."

How does this relate to the concept of 'beliefs' or to the NLP model of learning, which states, that we have to exercise a new skill (for example driving a car, courting for a woman) consciously, until we master it and it becomes unconscious (we can do all kinds of activities while driving a car). But our beliefs might prevent us from reevaluating a wrong or out-dated habit or skill.

>IOW our consciousness allows us to assert the
>context rather than just react to the context.

Do you mean things like anchoring (different music elicites different stated/moods for me), asking internally the correct questions (Why am I so successful? vs. Why does this always happen to me?), physical things like breathing, talking/gesturing/walking passionately, exercising, avoiding unhealthy food and so on?

>The ICPlus 'species I Ching' identifies the
>core sensations from which the more refined
>qualities have developed - blend, bond, bound,
>and bind, moves into the full set of emotions
>we use and on into the local languages we
>develop. Understanding the feelings can aid in
>asserting a context as well as sensing a
>context in general.

Does this mean, that the questions of the ICPlus are designed to detect these underlying feelings? If so, is there a table, which relates different feelings to different contexts or hexagrams?

>Umm.. to get that single line change in 49 the
>context needs to be different to aid in that
>process otherwise you are battling the 27 as IT
>tries to force 62 and you try to reach 55!

When I look at the two changing lines of 49

"Before any action one must step back and reconsider one's intensions"

"The great noble creates the transformation of the state. Without any signs things are balanced"

how does this relate to the context of "hunger" and what kind of emotions are involved?

>to fight a change, to avoid, for example, the
>27 to 62 move, introduce the opposite of 27,
>28, as an alternative context BUT just enough
>to combat, to neutralise the 27, not replace
>it! That allows for the maintaining of the
>49 'ideal' (no changing lines)

I don't understand, why the 49 is 'ideal' in my situation. I thought it would be better to influence the 27 with something, that forces a better outcome.

>Problem solving in general can elicit an
>abundance of problems to solve - we go looking
>for them, to break them open! ;-))

That's very true:) I must try to keep my focus on my original problem. The result should be very simple, a context, that pushes me towards my goal, and maybe a few alternatives.

>> A central concept of seduction (as mentioned in the book I
>> read) is to find out the weak point of the other person, in
>> other words, what's missing in her life, what she sees in me
>> or hopes to find in me. Then the seducer tries to provide to
>> her exactly this.

>yes - this is the LAKE focus, manifest in the
>expressions of hex 58. gets into 'show biz'
>types, to seduce the audience, to see their
>reflection in you and so open up to you - also
>gets into narcissism etc. the core sense is on
>REPLICATION, cooperative exchange rather than
>competitive exchange. Emotionally we are
>dealing with sexual love where we can replace a
>context with copies of ourselves.

This is not what I meant. How you describe it, I would replace her context by my context, which should of course bring her in a better mood in order to qualify as seduction. What I meant is, that I want to detect, what pushes her towards me, the need she thinks will be filled by me, so that I do not make the mistake to provide her with something different or just to mirror her.

>Sex and anger
>share the same generic space of replacement of
>context with something considered 'better'.
>Thus we can easly drift from a competitive
>nature to a cooperative and back!

This is why the seduction technique of 'mixing pain and pleasure' works.

>:) interesting focus in its competitiveness! -
>looking for weak points to 'attack' reflects a
>focus more on lust than joining 'her gang' or
>her joining your gang willingly rather than as
>some prisoner or property! What do you seek, a
>relationship or a possession? ;-) as
>your "confidence rises" (! interesting choice
>of terms) so you can become more competitive in
>approach, you can go too far. That what the IC
>covers, the issues of balanced vs exaggerated.

I don't want to 'attack' her weak point. This is a term coined in the book I read. But I want to know, why she is attracted to me, what it is, that fills a need in her, so I do not make the mistake of trying to appeal to her in inappropriate ways or to mirror her. As long as I'm not sure about that, I'm unsure about that. This is what I meant with 'confidence'.

>NLP focus is on follow-pace-lead if that is
>what you want to achieve - leadership ;-)

I have not much interest to lead her. And it would be anyway difficult with her.

>> >(XNFJs experience small betrayals
>>
>> What do you mean with that? Who doese the betrayels?
>>


>Can get into experimentation with different
>religious/secular belief systems as part of
>identity-seeking.

She did this.

>Identity is sourced in the external context and
>so comes through integrating with the context
>and so associated with social dynamics,

Socializing is important for her.

>Can have issues about being alone.

She said, that one can have a lot of friends, and still be alone.

>Can over work to stop the 'negative' thoughts

She works a lot during the week. She said, sometimes until 3 a.m.

>Can seek to have meetings for the sake of the
>meeting, nothing need be achieved, just the
>emotional sharing.

She likes to socialize for many hours on the weekend.

I will keep these things in mind.

Karl
 

karl

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>> Second attempt. She merely likes me and wants to be friends,
>> without thinking about more, but also not excluding it.

>For me: value oriented/proactive not sure/what will be

>For her: value oriented/proactive not sure/what will be

>The result from this was: 57/29 (The Gentle/The Abysmal).

I entered the answers, which are the same for me and her into proact3.

Result:

31/62 (Influence/Preponderance of the small)

Line 5 is moving: "When the influence shows itself there, the will remains firm and the influence does not lead to confusion."

The context which pushes both of us towards 62 is hex 56 (Wanderer), isn't it?

So what does that mean?

From the judgment:

"When a man is a wanderer and stranger, he should be not be gruff nor overbearing. He has no large circle of acquaintances, therefore he should not give himself airs. He must be cautious and reserved; in this way he protects himself from evil. If he is obliging toward others, he wins success."

What comes to mind is that we both don't have a "large circle of acquaintances", me, because I'm an introvert, and her because she is far from her family.
 

karl

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Another comment and question. I looked over a couple of hexagrams and found, that 32 looks rather good with respect to a relationship:

From your website:

"We experience duration in a social context of an enduring relationship; the idea of commitment. Contextually, we develop from a raw sense of direction (14) that becomes seductive (44), leading to wholehearted commitment."

For me the current situation is described in both cases, that I tried with the six questions, by 31 according to 'proact3' (three questions).

From 31 to 32 there is one additional moving line (compared to 31->62):

Second line:
"One should wait quietly until one is impelled to action by a real influence. Then one remains uninjured."

The respective context would be hex 50, which I don't yet understand.

Isn't it true that, though my current context is 56, it isn't difficult (doesn't require much energy) to follow the recommendation of the above line 2 and thus reach a much better outcome?
 
D

dharma

Guest
i can't count how many times in my life i have been seriously stuck -trying to wrap my head around some complicated love issue or another- the answers difficult to see because they were deeply buried and entangled within the whole relationship experience itself. often, only after travelling the WHOLE course, could i look back and see what i could not see at the time, and not a moment sooner.

always, i was confounded by what i felt compelled to do and where i felt compelled to go, considering my limited experience and understanding. and always having to deal with the "well-meaning" of others who emphatically TOLD me the answers and demanded that i heed them or suffer the "consequences" if i did otherwise. i was EXPECTED do things *their* way because afterall they'd "been there, done that" and knew the outcome. but am i not here to explore and play with life in my own way? and if i listened to their truth without experiencing it first-hand for myself, what did i really gain?

(it seems absurd to say, but can one give away second-hand truth and expect it to serve others the same way as second-hand clothes do? yet we do this all the time like it was natural.)

and of course, when i followed my ignorance as it led first to my own personal undoing and later to enlightenment, those all-knowing well-intentioned ones always came forward afterward to smugly tell me "i told you so, stupid" at precisely the time when what i really needed was compassion to mend my broken heart. funny. it would seem to me that if one were truly all-knowing, truly well-intentioned, they would KNOW that each person must gain understanding from life in their own way and in their own time. they would ALLOW each person to explore as they feel compelled to explore and refrain from participating in undignified jeering of another who is only trying to make sense of things in their own way.

ironically, beyond those difficult relationships that helped me to grow, i must admit that i learned much more about those who meant me well than i did from my failed love affairs. because i've always been stubborn and hard-headed, i've always followed the dictates of my heart, much to the chagrin of those who would have had me do otherwise to satisfy their personal sense of control. and what i've come to see very clearly is that often when WE ourselves have failed to fully assimilate the full scope of our own truthes from the major mistakes we've made in our OWN lives, we tend to unthinkingly stand in judgement of others, impatiently ridiculing and insisting that THEY are doing it wrong.

ultimately, we all learn the most about life from the mistakes we make, and only when we grasp the full scope and weighted glory of those experiences do we understand that allowing others to do the same is more natural than forcing them to swallow our second-hand truth.
 

karl

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>>Are you 17? Do you want to stir up trouble?

>I wish!! If I was I would be stirring trouble >with grown men though...

>In any case, I realize that my message is not
>getting through. Three times is a charm for me.

End of flame.
 

karl

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>ironically, beyond those difficult relationships
>that helped me to grow, i must admit that i
>learned much more about those who meant me well
>than i did from my failed love affairs.

This is very true. The emphasis is on 'those who meant me well'. The underlying concept is 'trust'. If you trust someone, you are more inclined to take their advice. If you don't trust someone, you will never take his advice. How to tell on the internet, if you trust someone? You don't see his or her face? You can tell merely by the words. But people are different. Some mean well while talking about their own experiences. Some mean well by pushing and talking blunt. Some don't mean well while talking about their own experiences and some don't mean well when talking blunt. I can't tell how I do this, but I know who means well and who doesn't. And the advice of those, who I think mean well, will be remembered, even if I don't follow it immediately.
 
C

candid

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Karl, I believe every member here at Clarity means well, but that doesn?t mean that everyone here walks on egg shells. We?re grownups, and we sometimes give and take advise that hurts a little. Sometimes we disagree and even fight. But for as long as I?ve been here, I?ve yet to see where the disagreements have led to anything but friendships, eventually. That?s because we try to give each other enough room to be themselves.

You might find more fruitful interaction if you cooperate more, rather than viewing us as your adversaries. Believe it or not, we wish to be your advocate not your adversary. Try realizing that this interaction works on a two lane highway, giving and receiving. Not all you receive will feel good.

As Dharma offered: ?beyond those difficult relationships that helped me to grow, i must admit that i learned much more about those who meant me well than i did from my failed love affairs...?

We mean you well, Karl, but the truth isn?t always kind.
 

claire

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Karl, I wish you well. Please stand back for a while and see how things goes.... I think you need some fresh energy to make you see things better. One thing I learnt in the most painful way: if something is meant to be, it will.
Do not worry, do not try to control, do not even try to analyze too much. Give her the benefit of doubt but give yourself the benefit to choose.
I read your posts and you sound as having confusion into yourself because of her, so I humbly advice you to take a break and just live and let things flow.
You know, Karl, I see one thing.... it seems that you try to justify her moves and intentions and I dont blame you because I did the same about the man I so much loved and still do, but it was unworthy of my time, energy and effort as I was only seeing love with the eyes I like to see love. You seem like doing the same.
I know you will analyze this and will not agree but analyze the fact that you disagree and always tries to 'justify' her reasons and paint her in emerald colours. Try to recognize this about yourself. Im really trying to help you cause I see you walking the same path I was and as I care for you as a human being I feel I need to alert you that you are assuming things for her.
If she is genuinely interested in you, you will know for sure.
Think about this.
It can give you a clue about what are this woman needs or games.
Be a bit selfish, Karl.
Put your needs on first place and if you have to analyze someone analyze yourself.
Please yourself. Look at things as how they are and not as you would like them to be.
She doesnt sound interested in you in my vision of what I read.
Think more about yourself and try to discover why you want so much to understand her.
When love is around it shows itself and no one needs to compare or analyze to see if it is there, cause love is powerful, it is always seen in actions and attitudes.
Try to really think about it and remember that, in the end, my friend, you always benefit, cause everything is grow and change for better, as life must be.
Take care and dont worry, just be happy.
Good luck,
Claire.
 

karl

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This will be my last message in this discussion because I needed about 20 attempts to load this page.

Chris, thanks for the insights into your theories. I learnt a lot from it and will continue to read on your website. I'll contact you via the address given there in case I have more questions.

Claire, I'm aware of the fact, that I'm prone to wishful thinking and often see things more positively than they really are. This is part of my intuitive personality. I talked with Chris about that. He gave me the advice to be more sensing, that is to recognize the facts and react to them appropriately. You say basically the same in other words and I'll take that seriously. Thanks.

Candid, I know that you are offended by me analyzing this woman's behavior. I wrote in one of my first messages, that some people like my theories (which aren't mine BTW, but those from people like Jung, Keirsey and others) and some don't. Basically these theories say, that people are different. If you understand that, you can accept them without being offended. It's not possible to have a good communication with everybody unless you deny your true self and put up a facade.

Hilary, I'll talk to you privately soon.

Karl
 
C

candid

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Dear Karl,

I'm not the least bit offended. But, who is Carl Jung?

Its been swell trying to communicate with you. I guess my façade was on crooked.
 

anon99

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Candid you wrote a few posts back "Sometimes we disagree and even fight. But for as long as I've been here I've yet to see where the disagreements have led to anything but friendships".

Who is the 'we' ? Not a very important point I make, but if disagreements are strong enough many have vanished and gone. Disagreements, as well as other things have led to people simply going, never to be heard of again. This is fine, I only point out what you say is not the case at all.
 
C

candid

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I stand corrected, Anon. I refer to "we" as those who feel this forum and those here are worth persevering in/with. My point however was that we do care.
 

karl

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Claire, I don't know if you read this, but I always kept in mind what you wrote to me in this thread...

"In my humble opinion I think you deserve more and better. You need someone capable to commit to you in genuine love and interest and who will not play games or tricks on you."

... so I let you and anybody else know how this continued. I was interested in her for some time but was more relaxed, started to look for another woman and let her know this. During a time when she was on a holiday with her boyfriend I registered on a whim in a Spanish-speaking dating system. A week later I got a wink (virtual eye contact) from a woman. I wrote her a message and we exchanged more messages. Five days later she suggested a relationship. I accepted and now one month later we've exchanged almost 100 love emails. She lives in Southern America... I will travel there in six weeks... she will visit me two months later for a month... and if everything goes well we will marry next year and live here in Germany. She's a wonderful woman, no manipulation at all and able to commit. She gives up a lot for her dream of a loving relationship and I will not disappoint her. Interestingly she went to school for ten years with the other woman. A strange coincidence, but nobody knew that I registered in this dating system.

With the other woman I'm friends now. She started to pursue me a bit when she felt that she lost my attention. Anyway I'm happy now with my new girlfriend.
 

claire

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Hey Karl, it is so great to hear you have found the right person for you. I want you to be very happy!!!!!!! You are a brave man with an open heart and I admire your willingness, openess and courage to go after your dreams. I must say I admire you. Not all men are so brave as you.
I hope you will be very happy with her.
Cheers, cheers and cheers!!!!

Oh, by the way I live in South America and if one day you and your woman would like to visit me in Brazil it will be my pleasure to show you a bit of my culture and country.

Stay in touch and be the happiest man alive! That's an order! (lol)

Lots of kisses for you and your beloved one.
Ooohhh, you made my day, Karl.
I absolutelly love love stories!!! xxxxxxxxxxx
 

karl

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Thanks Claire, I am already happy and she is too. It's just that we didn't yet meet in person. But both of us are almost sure that this isn't a problem. If we marry we will surely be often in Southern America and maybe some time in Brazil.

All the best to you.
 

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