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How to read 5 changing lines?

Newbie21

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I'm sorry if this has been asked dozens of times before; but what is the "correct" (for want of a better word) way to read a Hexagram with 5 changing lines?

For example: I received 40.1.2.3.4.5 > 63 recently, so do you:

A) Read the judgement of both Hex's
B) Read the unchanging line of the primary Hex
C) Read the unchanging line in the relating Hex

This has always confused me.
Say using this example (40>63) using either B or C would give opposite advice as 40.6 speaks of action but 63.6 speaks of non action

Any thoughts?
 

diamanda

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I do B - I only take into account the only one line which is intact/unchanging, and the resulting hex.

So in this case I'd read it something like:
You've already got rid of all the stuff that you needed relief from.
Now the only thing remainining to get rid of is that evil vulture - muster all means and do it.
Resulting 63 says that yes it can be done.

It's a bit as if only one line is changing, but the result is different.
Compare, for example, 40.6 > 64.
In my experience with that, even giving your best shot, you don't manage to get rid of the vulture.
While with your cast, you'll be successful.
 

moss elk

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A) Read the judgement of both Hex's
B) Read the unchanging line of the primary Hex
C) Read the unchanging line in the relating Hex
Never do B or C.
(you didn't recieve those lines, no reason to read them. Might as well read an encyclopedia.)
5 lines? Well, it's complicated.
So, it is best to slow down and really digest it for a while. Step 1-Read the image and judgment in the primary hex to understand the meaning of the hex.
Then once you've got it,
read the related hex and figure out why it is 'there' hiding in the background.
(I advocate paying less attention to the lines when there are so many, and focus on the two hex's)

My view is that the related hex is a qualitative descriptor of the primary hex. (like an adjective or adverb describing the primary hex, this kind of that.)

Not knowing your question, all I can say is that 40>63 makes me think the Deliverance has Already happened.

Tell us the situation and the question you asked?
 

diamanda

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Never do B or C.
(you didn't recieve those lines, no reason to read them. Might as well read an encyclopedia.)
I'd like to note here that I didn't make it up myself about concentrating on the unchanging line.
Got it from Alfred Huang & Master Yin, Chu Hsi, Henry Wei.
I'd also like to note that neither have I made up that the 2nd hexagram refers to a resulting situation.
Got it from Wilhelm, Blofeld, Ritsema & Karcher, Chu Hsi, Henry Wei.
Saying that, each person roadtests the various interpretation options, and decides what works for them.
 

moss elk

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I'd like to note here that I didn't make it up myself about concentrating on the unchanging line.
Yes, of course.
There are many methods and systems that people use. I was just pointing out what I do, and the reasoning behind it.
(and the reasoning for not reading a line you didn't get.)
 

moss elk

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If Wilhelm, Blofeld, Ritsema & Karcher, Chu Hsi, Henry Wei said that the 2nd hex is the future, well, all I can say is that any person is capable of error.
 

diamanda

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If Wilhelm, Blofeld, Ritsema & Karcher, Chu Hsi, Henry Wei said that the 2nd hex is the future, well, all I can say is that any person is capable of error.
Wilhelm, Blofeld, Ritsema & Karcher, Henry Wei, and even Chu Hsi (*) himself, all based their studies on old Chinese tradition. In my lengthy experience they're spot on, but oh well, I do know that some people prefer to interpret the 2nd hex according to the modern 'context' view.

(*) Chu Hsi, the founding father of Neo-Confucianism, wrote “Introduction to the Study of the Classic of Change” in 1186, it contains one of the oldest set of rules that we have.
 

Trojina

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I'm sorry if this has been asked dozens of times before; but what is the "correct" (for want of a better word) way to read a Hexagram with 5 changing lines?

For example: I received 40.1.2.3.4.5 > 63 recently, so do you:

A) Read the judgement of both Hex's
B) Read the unchanging line of the primary Hex
C) Read the unchanging line in the relating Hex

This has always confused me.
Say using this example (40>63) using either B or C would give opposite advice as 40.6 speaks of action but 63.6 speaks of non action

Any thoughts?
I'd consider the change patterns. These are the hexagram you get when you make all change line yang...here it would be 43, and then all change lines yin so the yin change pattern would be 24. I see these as almost the skeletal outline of the reading. To do with asserting self and then returning to self.

There is no one 'correct' way to do anything in the I Ching really, you do what works for you. With 5 change lines the relating hexagram will be very important IMO

So re this

For example: I received 40.1.2.3.4.5 > 63 recently, so do you:

A) Read the judgement of both Hex's
B) Read the unchanging line of the primary Hex
C) Read the unchanging line in the relating Hex

This has always confused me.
Say using this example (40>63) using either B or C would give opposite advice as 40.6 speaks of action but 63.6 speaks of non action
I wouldn't do either b or c at all..I mean why would you read the unchanging line in the relating hexagram, (there are no change lines in relating hexagrams) I guess you mean look at the unchanging line in the primary and read it's equivalent in the relating hexagram. To me this is a very strange thing to do. I mean if it works for you over time you will find out but for a newbie to start doing this is inadvisable IMO. I think considering change patterns is also probably too much for a newbie. If you have 5 change lines you make a sentence out of the 2 hexagrams, here Release's Already Across and then look at all the lines you did actually get. With this many lines I wouldn't read them too closely I'd be thinking about what that sentence meant to me and my overall impression. It looks like a gun already fired, a statement already made, and now it has been made you can return to normal.

You can zoom in on a reading or zoom out to see the bigger picture. This is one to zoom out on I reckon, to me the 43 pattern is so strong and then the 40>63. To me it just looks like you do something/say something about the truth of how you see things...phew...and then you let it drop. It looks a bit to me like throwing down the gauntlet, if that's the right expression as in 'look this is what I think, take it or leave it', showing your hand, declaring your position is felt as a release from tension and it's already happening/happened.
 

Newbie21

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Uh oh, what have I started!

I was just using the 40>63 as an example, as I had also got another reading on the same topic with 5 lines changing. the question was in relation to this: https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?24444-40-3-5-gt-28-amp-18-3-5-6-gt-29-Disappointed-with-a-friend

The question was something along the lines of: what is the outcome of posting the valuable items without word?

The items hold both monetary value & emotional significance. I considered posting them without a letter/word as the receiver has disregarded & ignored a very tragic event relating to us both.
Perhaps I should update the thread? I just wanted to get a feel for how to read it before posting.

Diamanda - line 6 does ring true with me - either the vulture is himself or (what I hope) is the thing that's making him act this way, an inner demon.

But before asking I had considered not continuing the friendship with him over his behaviour, so Moss Elk I can see where it points to already being completed.
 

Newbie21

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Sorry Trojina I didn't see your post before I posted! :duh:

Now I'm even more confused! :rofl:

So then generally everyone agrees the image & judgement of the 2 Hexes are more important, the lines not so much?

I really like the idea of making a sentence out of the two Hex's. That might give me a bigger picture to look at

So does this advice go for 5+ changing lines? And 4 or less you heed the advice of the lines?
 

Trojina

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No there aren't any rules but for me when only one line changes that line is very prominent as the answer but when many change I focus less on them without ignoring them. Making the sentence is always helpful so you get the gist of the reading then you can look at more detailed aspects. But different aspects of a cast will jump out at you at different times. Interpretation is intuitive, sometimes you might see simply see your answer in the shape of the hexagram, how it looks, other times one change line might make everything clear by itself.
 

diamanda

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why would you read the unchanging line in the relating hexagram, (there are no change lines in relating hexagrams) I guess you mean look at the unchanging line in the primary and read it's equivalent in the relating hexagram. To me this is a very strange thing to do.
I also don't understand why you'd ever do C (read the unchanging line in the 2nd hexagram).
I realise just now that C is actually the method described by Chu Hsi, so I just checked his book but he doesn't explain what the justification for this is, at all.

Imo it's much more logical to take a special look at the only one intact/unchanging line in the 1st one.
As in, have a look at what the initial hexagram is, look at the changing lines, pay particular attention to which line is still intact, and then look at the resulting hex as well. Newbie if you continue getting so many lines you won't need a TV or Netflix anymore :D
 

Newbie21

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Diamanda funny you should say that - I had planned on chilling & watching a few things on TV tonight...but here I am with 2 castings, 5 changing lines each! :)
 

angelatlantis14

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ok, to add another 2 cents to the already given richness of information:

my opinion always was, and will likely continue t be, if you recieved a reading with 5 changeing lines, then read the Hexagram, plus the 5 changing lines! That is what you received, so is there any reason to disregard this and focus on something else (unchanging line, unchanging line in relating hex etc...)

In most Hexagrams the lines show a logical progression from one state to the next, so this might be what the I ching is pointing you to (Book of Changes, anyone :)?

Rather be glad you received such a rich and detailed answer, with much to ponder....

As for relating / context / future Hexagram, I think the second Hex can be all of them, and there is to me no need to limit yourself to one way of reading it. It would, to me, depend on the question, and my own situation while casting the reading.

But I respect other opinions and approaches to this - does not mean that I am right and everyone else is wrong...

In the end, the most important thing to me is that the reading SPEAKS to me

best wishes

maui
 

svenrus

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................ or simply create a hexagram unchanging or with only one changing line.





One Die.jpg
 
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diamanda

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As for relating / context / future Hexagram, I think the second Hex can be all of them, and there is to me no need to limit yourself to one way of reading it. It would, to me, depend on the question, and my own situation while casting the reading.
Greatly phrased maui.
See what the cast sounds like overall, take into account a few viewpoints, till it clicks.

That is what you received, so is there any reason to disregard this and focus on something else (unchanging line, unchanging line in relating hex etc...)
The way I see it, the reason to focus on various peripheral elements (sometimes) is because the relationship between the lines, the trigrams, the hexagrams, the line positions etc, is so organic and intricate, that it's not possible to get a straighforward clear-cut answer via a clear-cut A>B>C method. Of course in some cases the answer is clear as day, and quite A>B>C, but as we all know this is very often not the case.
 

cjgait

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It wasn't until recently that Gao Heng and the Nanjing University group reverse engineered ancient texts (the Zuo Zhuan and Guo Yu) to determine how texts were obtained from Zhouyi questions in early China. Most modern methods for determining what to read are derived one way or another from Zhu Xi, a person of the Song Dynasty. The ancient technique limits the reading to one text, once in a while two (but never two line texts).

So my question to those who espouse using all changing lines received is, let's say you get 50 changing to 10. In the Nanjing method you would read the judgment of 50. Using all the lines you would read that judgment, plus lines 1, 3 and 5. So if you are asking about going ahead with a project the answer will be:

Good fortune/go for it.
Clean things out (i.e. clearing out the cauldron benefits).
The contents of the cauldron can't be eaten (because there is no access to them, i.e. a secondary process failure).
The omen is good, (there is access, secondary process success).

So which is it? Is this a good or a bad omen? Should you proceed or not? The Nanjing method text says go ahead and shows the image of the cauldron becoming Treading. So a good diviner is going to interact with those images and their significance. But the basic omen is not in doubt (except of course those lines in the Yi that have both positive and negative divining tags :brickwall:).
 

moss elk

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There is no 100% consensus.
Just as there is no 100% consensus about the color blue.
There are camps, schools, ways, independent thought, and agreements between some.
When I first started studying Yi, I noticed there were different 'systems' that advised to give weight to a certain line, or to ignore other lines.
At first I considered them and tried to follow them, but found them to be inadequete, lacking, off the mark in my opinion.
I myself did not learn from anyone about how to view the related hex. I started seeing the related hex as I do with hindsight, looking back at my own readings, and reading through thousands of threads here.

When you get multiple changing lines,
will find some to be contradictory to each other, in a way you can or cannot figure out. That is when I suggest looking at the 2 hexagrams to see what is being said. I have had the most success with that.
 

Trojina

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So my question to those who espouse using all changing lines received is, let's say you get 50 changing to 10. In the Nanjing method you would read the judgment of 50. Using all the lines you would read that judgment, plus lines 1, 3 and 5. So if you are asking about going ahead with a project the answer will be:

Good fortune/go for it.
Clean things out (i.e. clearing out the cauldron benefits).
The contents of the cauldron can't be eaten (because there is no access to them, i.e. a secondary process failure).
The omen is good, (there is access, secondary process success).

So which is it? Is this a good or a bad omen? Should you proceed or not?

Perhaps like any other meaningful conversation it is a nuanced answer rather than just 'good' and 'bad'. I say 'perhaps' but I do think consulting works like a conversation and conversations are complex at times but you can 'hear' the gist of them without reducing the vocabulary allowed ...and I do think rules that limit a cast to one line etc etc are akin to demanding that your interlocutor only uses 100 words or so. You might feel you have simplified things for yourself but really you have just lopped off a whole realm of meaning that is complex, but reality is complex. I've used this example before. If you ask a person questions you don't expect them to stick to rules of response you have decided beforehand. it wouldn't work well. It may work a bit but it's very much hindered.

Here for example suppose the rule of conversation is only yes or no

Jon. Is your mother well
Paul. No.
Jon. Oh so she is sick ?
Paul. No.
Jon. Ah that makes no sense


But with free rein conversation, all lines allowed, all words allowed something more complex and also more true and more informative comes through.

Jon. Is your mother well ?
Paul. She is right now but won't be after her operation on Tuesday as it will take her some time to recover.
Jon. Ah she feels well now then ?
Paul. Yes she feels well but her condition could soon be a problem so the operation is a preventative measure, good in the long term but she will be feeling unwell after the operation.
Jon. Ah I see.



So 50.1.3.5>10 could be seen in all kinds of ways. For one thing this may be a sequence of events and I often do find lines to manifest as a sequence of events. Line 1, useless or outdated things need clearing before the good can come through. Line 3 It may take a while to get to grips with things following that. Line 5 what comes through this clearance and waiting is a good solid basis for producing something of worth.

So Yi may not just be saying 'yes good omen' or 'no bad omen' fortunately it's so much richer than that. It could be saying that after a period of preparation through clearing (line 1) and some delays (line 3) then whatever it is can become sound and proper (line 5). I'd see the 10 as the aura of caution around the whole venture through all the stages perhaps.

And then there are the change patterns, here 63 and 64 to think about. The lines don't arise in these patterns for no reason, they are a subtle part of the reading one may choose to look at or not.

I agree with maiu

In the end, the most important thing to me is that the reading SPEAKS to me
That is the most important thing. People might use different ways and systems but the main thing is they feel they connect with the answer, they feel answered by something. Somehow a list of very ordered mechanical rules would inhibit that I feel, in the way I described with conversation. However perhaps some do find the oracle speaks to them via these complex rule based methods because it becomes part of the ritual for them and they 'hear' their answer via that ritual ?
 

cjgait

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Perhaps like any other meaningful conversation it is a nuanced answer rather than just 'good' and 'bad'.
To clarify, I'm not saying my method is the only right one, just that it is the one that, as far as we can determined, was used in early China. That is meaningful for me. Others might not care about that. Naturally everyone uses the method they find most fitting and I wouldn't think of saying my method is better. It's just ancient, perhaps about 700 years 'younger' than the Zhouyi itself, and it works well for me. I used multi-line interpretation for several decades, but was never fully satisfied with it. Once I discovered the method that Kongzi would probably have used to 'eliminate doubts' (the purpose of the Yi, after all), that was good for me. As to complex, there is nothing complex about the Nanjing method. It is, for instance, much less complex than the contrived system of yarrow divination that Zhu Xi created. I am amply familiar with the series of lines as a story approach, I just don't like it. Never did. These things are based on schools of thought, after all. There are many schools. The Zhou Yi Dao school uses a form of Nanjing, others don't. That's all.
 

angelatlantis14

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well, I was going to reply to cjgaits examplary question about 50 -> 10, but then Trojina did, and put it all so much better than I would have :)
I agree that the answer when receiving many lines is probably complex, and may encompass several stages of meaning / development along the way.

Take an example of a very frequently asked question like "Will I be happy/married/healthy in my life"? Getting an answer that says simply "Yes" will no doubt be encouraging, but it leaves with many open questions (which you could in turn, ask for separately):
- What do I need to do to be happy?
- What is the timeframe?
- What type if happiness will it be?
- What is my inner progression?

etc. etc.

However, if you feel more comfortable and true with a 1-line/no-line method, then this will likely be the method that works best for you.
I am fully willing to accept that this method is the true original one (I have no great scholarship in this area, so defer to those who have) .
I guess, whatever you are using has to feel authentic to you, and then you will get results that ring true...

best wishes

maui
 

Trojina

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To clarify, I'm not saying my method is the only right one, just that it is the one that, as far as we can determined, was used in early China
.

I know you weren't saying that, I think you misunderstood me. When I said


Perhaps like any other meaningful conversation it is a nuanced answer rather than just 'good' and 'bad'.
I meant our conversation with Yi not our conversation here on this thread.


That is meaningful for me. Others might not care about that. Naturally everyone uses the method they find most fitting and I wouldn't think of saying my method is better. It's just ancient, perhaps about 700 years 'younger' than the Zhouyi itself, and it works well for me. I used multi-line interpretation for several decades, but was never fully satisfied with it. Once I discovered the method that Kongzi would probably have used to 'eliminate doubts' (the purpose of the Yi, after all), that was good for me.
I wouldn't say the purpose of Yi for me was solely to eliminate doubts but sure yes everyone has to use what works for them.


I am amply familiar with the series of lines as a story approach, I just don't like it. Never did.
Oh I thought when you asked how people using all lines would see 50>10 you were asking what we might do with this cast. Yes it's a matter of preference. You don't like the lines as a story approach and I don't like what I see as mechanical approaches where certain rules are always applied. However I don't know anything about these methods since they just don't interest me at all. Why use all these 'mechanisms' for want of a better word, when you can just have a conversation with the Oracle.

But if it works for you then I'm sure it's a valid approach for you. The world of I Ching divining is a very diverse one. :)
 

Trojina

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Once I discovered the method that Kongzi would probably have used to 'eliminate doubts' (the purpose of the Yi, after all), that was good for me
.

...thinking about it that's probably the fundamental difference between who use the more rule based methods and those who don't. I don't see that the purpose of Yi to eliminate doubt at all. I don't mind things being open for me to make a choice, I'm not seeking certainty from Yi. I can see if one was seeking certainty then one would really need to narrow things down as on a fact finding mission and so hence be drawn to those methods whereby a definite judgement can be made on way or the other. I am pretty much allergic to those kinds of approaches but also the kinds of questions I ask aren't generally certainty searching ones, sometimes I'm just presenting things to Yi for it's perspective and so on and whilst some casts do offer certainty of a kind it really isn't my primary motive in consulting.
 

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