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How to toss best? Toss up? Let fall? Toss at front? or not toss at all?

laureet

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If to toss is the main action which allows to interact with the Jing of Changes, isn't it worth to explore the best way to do it?

As a matter of fact, big debates and complete schools were born from different views on this...but also some common points.

To toss is to let go your control and surrender to the Flow, to let something which was part of you (in close contact with you) to abandon you for a while to "catch" what was used to be called the Heavenly Wind and come back to you carrying indications of how the Flow is working and what to expect from it, (a bit as throwing a piece of cloth into the air for finding the direction of the wind), . But tossing has more significance, most ancient schools agree... You toss up because you want to contact "Heaven" and carry its "message" to Earth (landing). So, the correct technique might be to toss as high as possible while maintaining the coherence (the group of objects together in flight and at landing)... and if you care to experiment, you will find out that your accuracy increases when more you polish this technique :)

It is interesting to notice that tossing was not always the way, there was hot rod cracking of shells and bones, flooding of ponds and leaves (or sticks), hanging of bamboo stalks (from where windchimes came), rope knotting and entangling, rolling of stones, drum and quake balls, etc Tossing came around as the most "portable" system but there is nothing wrong with experimenting the older methods ... and why not new methods. The basics are: the objects used must be in close contact with you as your question is, must be left to free flow, unattached to you and free in the flow of Nature to be "caught" or influenced by Natural Flow, then come back to you, so you can read them...

An exercise for the curious and the explorer minded :) and why not for the serious researcher :bows:
 

Trojina

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Its so tedious I get it over as soon as possible
 

sparhawk

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Hi Laurie,

If you have the time to do either one, which one is your preferred method of consulting the Yijing, stalks or coins?

L
 

laureet

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Its so tedious I get it over as soon as possible
I agree, it is the mechanical part and boooorrring :) The fun is in the readings

Nevertheless, exploring new or more accurate ways can lead to more fun in that part... or not :D I think it all depends on personality as all choices are...
 

sparhawk

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Me too. Even though I carry a set of Han coins around my neck, I barely use them.

L
 

sparhawk

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You mean Han... HAN or Han type ?
Han Dinasty... The babies hanging from my neck are well over 2000 years old... If anything, it gives me a perspective of time where no matter how old I am, I'm still a baby... :D

L
 

hollis

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tossing

I like this subject, tossing. I hold my hands loosely, like a sieve, (I imagine the hands to be a turtle shell), and shake till they fall out. This allows some randomness regarding when the coin will fall, and it helps me to feel the question, and deepen or explore my focus on the question.
 

Tohpol

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I like this subject, tossing. I hold my hands loosely, like a sieve, (I imagine the hands to be a turtle shell), and shake till they fall out. This allows some randomness regarding when the coin will fall, and it helps me to feel the question, and deepen or explore my focus on the question.

Yeah, that's how I do it. But like Trojan, I see it as a boring part of the process, which is probably not a good thing. So, I tend to shake those coins like a cocktail mixer and get it over with. :D

I used to to be sooo reverential when I did a reading - candles, quiet, no music, relaxing before. But now, I feel the connection seems to be quite strong and the ritualistic stuff isn't so necessary. It doesn't mean I don't deeply respect the process but I guess I'm into the Chinese painting attitude - heavy on minimalism :D

Topal
 

lienshan

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I choose the divination method depending of the question asked.

When very concrete questions I consult the relevant Yi hexagram without tossing. Once I studied hexagram 3 Difficulty at the Beginning for three weeks while changing a very troublesome new factory into a success :)

My tossing method is inspired of my surroundings. I live 4 km north of Himmelbjerget (Heaven Mountain) so I always toss outside at the top of the hill in the backyard of my garden. Facing south and the mountain I call my spirit helpers. Esspecially at midnight when fullmoon is a great time for divining and the little noise from my dry yarrowstalks sounds like small spirits wispering their secret answers into my ears.

When "feeling" questions I prefer a very simple tossing method only producing hexagrams without changing lines, because my readings of such questions are intuitive inspired of the trigram combination.

When "ordinary" questions I prefer an ordinary tossing method and I do the readings when I am inside my house, because I consult different translations and previous readings.

I too experiment to find both original and new ways of tossing my yarrowstalks. My latest "invention" is eight possible results each symbolizing a trigram. The trigrams are numbers made of : = 2 and I = 3 so ::: = 6 I:: :I: :::I = 7 :II I:I II: = 8
and III = 9 so each line of a hexagram is in this metod a trigram with the same odds as tossing coins. I think this method will help me to read the steady 7 and 8 lines, because they are like a development of three phases.

http://www.himmelbjerget.dk/hovedside-eng.html
 

peace66

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A Joyous Undertaking!

WOW!! This discussion is pretty deep for me since I've only been with The I Ching for a
few months, But I'll wade in...
I enjoy the process of finding my answers. I've used a few different methods and I like
them all. One that's pretty portable is 16 tiny plastic hair barrettes that I keep in a
4.5oz or 133ml plastic container. They're slightly smaller and a lot lighter in weight than marbles and they are a quick way if you're impatient:)
I also love the online Flash marble program Hilary has at our site; It's quick as well.
I just got my yarrow stalks recently and did 1 divination with them. Since they're new,
they still smell of nature and that's really terrific, but my 5 year-old daughter keeps
trying to snatch the sticks and run off with them, so I'll have to wait until she's asleep or
in school for a long, drawn-out, ceremonial divination. I like to burn incense too.:bows:
It's always a pleasure to really share something close to one's heart like this with others
of like spirit. I just learned this word from Soshin and Miakoda: Namaste!
I see the spirit moving within all of us!!:bows:
Peace...:)
 

magictortoise

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I think it doesn't much matter the technique of tossing but only that one is consistent. Occasionally I use the yarrow stalks but only when I have enough time and feel I would like to enhance the ritual.

Ken
 

frank_r

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I also use different methods. The one I use most is with 8 stones, three white ones, three black and one brown and one brown/white one.http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=4086

Sometimes I open the book and say a number(from one to six ) for a changing line.

Also yarrow when I have a phylosofical question.

Or when I have a question that is playing already a long time I use cards and a game called : The game of cards. A Dutch I Ching specialist has develloped this game with 64 cards and you place 9 cards in the Lo Shu diagram and read them as in the King Wen cycle.

I too experiment to find both original and new ways of tossing my yarrowstalks. My latest "invention" is eight possible results each symbolizing a trigram. The trigrams are numbers made of : = 2 and I = 3 so ::: = 6 I:: :I: :::I = 7 :II I:I II: = 8
and III = 9 so each line of a hexagram is in this metod a trigram with the same odds as tossing coins. I think this method will help me to read the steady 7 and 8 lines, because they are like a development of three phases.]
I gave a few lectures and with this method the people from the group made a group hexagram. This was really fun to do this way.
 
L

lightofreason

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waste of time - get the IC to ask YOU questions. That way it gives you an emotion-derived assessment of the context that is pushing your buttons and so forcing you to consult the IC.

chris
 

lienshan

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I gave a few lectures and with this method the people from the group made a group hexagram. This was really fun to do this way.
Group readings were actually instituted due to the Book of Kau (chapter 24 the Great Plan):

"These officers having been appointed, when the divination is proceeded with, three men are to interpret the indications, and the (consenting) words of two of them are to be followed."

Friends Area is working fine according to the above ancient rule :) James Legge writes in a footnote to the translation:

"The way of divination by the shell was by the application of fire to scorch it till the indications appeared on it; and that by the stalks of the plant was to manipulate in a prescribed way forty-nine of them, eighteen different times, till the diagrams were formed."

That was what inspired me to the method of dividing my 49 yarrowstalks 18 different times and count the left bunch each time. Odd is a whole line I (3) and even is a broken line : (2)

Three lines together is a trigram of ::: (6) and I:: :I: :::I (7) and :II I:I II: (8) and III (9)
Six of such "line-trigrams" are together a hexagram of 7/8 steady lines and 6/9 changing lines.
 

frank_r

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Odd is a whole line I (3) and even is a broken line : (2)

Three lines together is a trigram of ::: (6) and I:: :I: :::I (7) and :II I:I II: (8) and III (9)
Six of such "line-trigrams" are together a hexagram of 7/8 steady lines and 6/9 changing lines.
What I did was asking 6 people to name a number, 6, 7, 8 or 9. Then you had a changing yin, yang, yin and changing yang line. And than you had a group hexagram. And everybody could talk about this particular hexagram as if they threw it themselves.
 

laureet

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I like this subject, tossing. I hold my hands loosely, like a sieve, (I imagine the hands to be a turtle shell), and shake till they fall out. This allows some randomness regarding when the coin will fall, and it helps me to feel the question, and deepen or explore my focus on the question.
You know, that is the traditional way in many schools... When you want to make the Qi circulate in your body, you clasp the hands and shake them (standing up and relaxed) until you vibrate from head to toes. If you hold between your claspped hand the stalks or the coins, you will synchronize these with your Qi and when you release them, you will be in full synchronicity with the reading resulting...

I use often this way, principally when I use stalks. When I use the Fung system I use ropes and entanglement instead, so all depends if I am in or outdoors.:bows:
 

laureet

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I like to burn incense too.:bows:
You can try the Nanzan method of wind reading the Jing: light 7 inciense sticks, let them settle (when all the smoke lines are straight) then wand your hand over them one time strong while asking the question and take note of the lines: straight (even if to one side or horizontal) is Yang, spiral or interrupted is Yin, is any stick is anomalous (no smoke or is flaming) substitute looking the seventh (which is always left a bit separated)

It is quite fun but also brings interesting results

Fast eyes needed though
:D
 

charly

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... But tossing has more significance... you want to contact "Heaven" and carry its "message" to Earth (landing). So, the correct technique might be to toss as high as possible while maintaining the coherence (the group of objects together in flight and at landing)... your accuracy increases when more you polish this technique...

... tossing was not always the way, there was hot rod cracking of shells and bones, flooding of ponds and leaves (or sticks), hanging of bamboo stalks (from where windchimes came), rope knotting and entangling, rolling of stones, drum and quake balls, etc ...

...there is nothing wrong with experimenting the older methods ... and why not new methods...

...the objects used must be in close contact with you as your question is, must be left to free flow, unattached to you and free in the flow of Nature to be "caught" or influenced by Natural Flow, then come back to you, so you can read them...
Laureet:

I Ching users generally agree about some unknown (magic?) relation among ritual aspects and results quality.

Much methods give results even when not well applied, and given that I Ching final results depends from a personal interpretation, results quality relays more on personal openess than on ritual operations. Most people prefers quick methods.

Although I agree with you, I never used stalks. I mostly use coins (country old nickels ritually pierced, lucky coins), I tried dices and random numbers and a self made wheel similar to an ancient chinese device. Old enought methods for me.

About new methods, PC is only a new way for getting random numbers, thus an old method. Cards (tarots) remains, but...

yours,


Charly
 

laureet

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Much methods give results even when not well applied, and given that I Ching final results depends from a personal interpretation, results quality relays more on personal openess than on ritual operations. Most people prefers quick methods.
Absolutely, the main ingredient is Intention, but also keep in mind that the connection with the All must be kept as strong and clear as possible because after all, we are reading from it ...

As with all, ritual, in my opinion, should be examined for finding out what is necessary and what is not, what borned from basic importance and what didn't, but there may be always an element of true need in ritual which probably gave birth to it...

Quick ways carry you faster but not always safer or to the best point of arrival
:) in the other hand...sometimes they do :D

I agree with what you say about ritual and personal element :bows: ...it is very much true... with the above considerations...
 

heylise

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I was lucky, someone discovered a big box of cheap ancient coins in a small chinese shop and bought as many of them as possible. And then sorted them, so they made good sets, and sold them to everyone who was interested. I got 4 sets of which I still have 2, the other 2 I gave to good friends.

Now I have one set from the Qian dynasty (qian is the same character as hex. 1) and one from the Tao dynasty (same as Tao-Dao-road, ya know..). So I can use the one I need at that moment, Qian for when I need some action, Dao for something spiritual.

But... I use most of the time a very nice program, San Shan, simple, very good translation and excellent way to cast the (virtual) coins. It sits on www.sundialler.com and is not expensive. I have all divinations in lists, according to date-hexagram-related hex or whatever other order I want.

I like the digital way of casting the coins a lot better than any coins or stalks or other actual objects. My experience is that I get answers which are more relevant. It took a long time before I could even think of it, but once I did, I was very happy with it.

LiSe
 

sparhawk

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Now I have one set from the Qian dynasty (qian is the same character as hex. 1) and one from the Tao dynasty (same as Tao-Dao-road, ya know..). So I can use the one I need at that moment, Qian for when I need some action, Dao for something spiritual.
Interesting. I also have two separate sets. When I have a choice, the time and the proper place, I use the Han as you would the Tao, and the T'ang coins as you would the Qian... :bows:


L
 

pone

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a discussion of tossing technique? that's a bit personal. :rofl:

i used to keep "special" coins, and count the number of times i shook my hands, blah blah. i felt i could make a stronger connection by using items that i had imbued, over time, with my own... ownness. at a certain point i decided that i was losing the thread by focusing so much attention on objects and ritual. and the book doesn't require reverence fer pete's sake. respect, attention, focus... an honest effort to understand and learn. but perhaps i'm more of an egalitarian than the confucians, i don't buy into too much delineation or stratification.
 

peace66

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Thank You Laureet!

You can try the Nanzan method of wind reading the Jing: light 7 inciense sticks, let them settle (when all the smoke lines are straight) then wand your hand over them one time strong while asking the question and take note of the lines: straight (even if to one side or horizontal) is Yang, spiral or interrupted is Yin, is any stick is anomalous (no smoke or is flaming) substitute looking the seventh (which is always left a bit separated)

It is quite fun but also brings interesting results

Fast eyes needed though
:D
That does sound like fun!
I'll have to try!:)
Peace
 

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