How to understand the changing lines in hex. 44

[yellowknife]

I'll quote this from the Jungian therapist Marion Woodman (author of "The Pregnant Virgin" etc), because it's relevant to my situation and I think this discussion of 44;

"What the male analyst may fail to recognise in the psychology of the creative woman is the profound split between her imagination and her body...if passionate eroticism is not consciously discussed, the body is once again abandoned and the shadow will take it's revenge in physical symptoms. At the point of highest tension between analyst and analysand, one or the other may fall into unconsciousness and accuse the other of wanting "more and more and more" and both be saying "that's not true"...this is no time for ineffectual masculinity nor masochistic femininity, nor tyrannical father, nor positive mother, nor any musical chairs combination of the four. Both analyst and analysand must speak and both must be heard. The old map is useless in the new country ".

 

[bruce]

The woman needs no reason to pursue her desire; she has a will of her own.

 

[cal val]

Well now there's a predator for you if ever I saw one. Therapist seducing vulnerable female patients... they've got to be some of the easiest prey... next to children that is.

I wonder how many previous patients he's successfully seduced. I hope HE'S the one who gets burned by this dalliance... like losing his license and having his name put on the predators list so that his neighbors know as well that he's a sexual predator.

I wouldn't run like the wind though. I'd be the one to see to his fall. That should be easy enough... since what he's doing is a crime.

Love,

Val

 

[kevin]

I have been trying not to comment here.

I agree with a lot of what has been said.

As a therapist also trained in the Humanistic approach... I would hand my shingle in before going down that road.

I have spent hundreds of hours, alone and in supervision, untangling the emotions my patients engender in me. I need to be clear and untangled in order to help.

There are predatory therapists out there... they are sometimes skilled and sell a good line.

YOU CAN NOT HELP SOMEONE THERAPEUTICALLY IF YOU ARE INVOLVED - END OF STORY.

Indeed you are more likely to do harm with the confusion of the relationship and the power imbalance which most often plays in to both peoples pathology.

A few times I have turned such folk in - they always break down in tears and admit that they have betrayed a great trust.

--Kevin

 

[rosada]

In view of the fact that the therapist had intended only to hug Wolverine, and that it was Wolverine who turned the hug into a kiss, I feel we would be closer to the truth to describe the therapist as being an incredible dork, but not necessarily as being a sexual predator. I think it's important to understand this distinction, because if this is so, we wont find the solution looking at this as an example of predator/victim, but more likely the resolution is to view as an example of Unconscious Desires disrupting the Conscious Intention - which is exactly what 44 is all about. The empty space at the foundation of this hexagram warns us that something fundamental is missing. That Unconscious/Yin line in the first position says the Conscious Mind is totally oblivious to the root chakra/sexual aspect of the situation. So thus we have dorky therapist thinking, "Well I'll just give client a friendly hug," and KABOOM the unrecognized potential catches on fire!

So now that you know you have a therapist who isn't nearly as hep to your unconscious processes as you had assumed, what to do next? Well, 44 Temptation, is followed by 45 Gathering Together. which I interpret as meaning that once the Temptation is recognized, if it can not be stopped "with a brake of bronze" it should be brought into Group Consciousness, that is bring it out in public. In this case, "bringing it out in public" would probably require that you stop seeing him as a therapist but the you could start dating him as a man (In which case i would take back what I said about him being a dork!)

Please forgive me if I have phrased my ideas in a way that steps on toes. I know I sometimes get carried away with my opinions about the meaning of a line and forget there is a person with feelings behind the question. In this example I am just trying to analyize the meaning of 44 which I think is the hexagram that warns us when our own unconcsious desires are tempting us to tolerate a situation that we would not tolerate if we weren't ignoring things we don't want to see.

Rosada

 

[cal val]

Rosada...

You might want to read her first post about this relationship again because you've misread at least a couple of things.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

He's been open about finding me sexually and mentally attractive.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The counsellor has commented in the past that my body language is held in, and aloof. We were talking about this last week and he suddenly asked me to stand up and made to hug me. I looked up at him, felt as if I wanted to kiss him, which he realised in shock and exclaimed...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Like I said... a typical predator... and a very clever one.

I know what it's like to be a woman in denial too.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Here's a sample of a woman in denial:

"My boss finds me attractive. He's just having marital problems. If he goes to a counsellor with his wife, he'll get his marriage back on trach. So...

why do I keep having this recurring dream that he's raping me?"

Here's a sample of a woman come out of denial:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Oh never mind... it's too painful to relive. And it's no surprise why I preferred denial to the pain of what was really going on.

Love,

Val

 

[rosada]

Val,

Major Oops! You're right. Guess I'm in denial too. Guess that's why 44 needs to be brought up to 45 - that is bring the situation to the group and then hopefully we'll get a 360 degree picture.

You sound like a survivor!
Rosada

 

[yellowknife]

I think I am in denial;

denial about the fact that what I posted was likely to lead to the subsequent interpretations, thus allowing me to project out some of my inner reservations on to forum posters here of whom I can then say "well, what do they know, they're just people in a forum who don't know the whole story".

I want to project out the part of me that could see a man as a sexual predator because, I suspect, unconsciously I see all men as sexual predators and feel myself being turned into an "object" when relationships become sexual. That's exactly why I want to explore these issues in a relationship with a level of communication that means that the man and I won't turn each other into "objects" rather than interacting subjects.

Re what I've already posted- the counsellor being open about finding me attractive is normal practice in this type of counselling. The relationship is the key to the therapeutic relationship. The existential therapist Irving Yalom for example is very open in his books about his approach to the world being fairly sexualised, and writes often of how sharing honestly his feelings for his patients is a positive practice, to model and to create a "real", non transference based relationship. I have a friend who's about to qualify as a clinical psychologist through the system in the UK and, in supervision, she was talked through her attraction to one of her patients and encouraged to be open about it with him.

Re, the hug. My therapist wasn't trying to paint it as a " spontaneous friendly hug". I was talking about my non acceptance of my body, and the absence of my body from my discourses. He was intending to see how I reacted to a full body hug, and to bring my absent body, literally into the conversation. He, obviously also laid us open to that becoming sexual, and I feel secure in the fact that in our next session I can bring up the fact that that risk was there and he seemed to be in denial about it. I expect he'll acknowledge that, and reflect further on what was happening for him and for me in the embrace and after. As two separate human beings, using dialogue, we'll work towards making our separate worlds and experiences enter into some common ground.

This process feels crucial for me, after a lifetime of skirting the dangers of people seeing each other as objects (a reason that a mechanistic or analytic model of therapy wouldn't work for me).

I refuse the labels of;

Vulnerable Female Patient (where's my responsibility and volition then?)

Victim

Unconscious Woman

Woman in Denial

and I'm not going to attach the labels to him of;

Rogue Therapist who Must be Stopped

Predatory Man

Sexual Predator who Must Fall

We're whole human beings, who might be engaged in some acting out (and then trying to recognise and discuss that), in expressing some of our personal pathologies involving risk and boundary breaking (something I recognised we share and a reason I chose him as my therapist after originally meeting him as a college tutor),in exploring the role that communication, intimacy, sex, the thrill of the new, the fear of the unknown, authentic bits of us, inauthentic bits of us play in relationship and in trying to recognise which is which. For me, it feels more safe (maybe too safe which is something I need to explore) to do this in the context of a therapeutic relationship.

For me, the point of my therapy (as decided by me) is not to fall into labels and objectifying. It's to develop as a responsible, feeling, aware human being. That may take me into a therapeutic relationship that becomes sexual. He and I may decide not to go there. Either way, I want to stay real throughout. 44 holds some warnings and I'm interested in thinking further on that.

 

[void]

Label of Dork then ? lol, sorry Rosadas post made me laugh. In my experience there are alot of 'dorks' out there calling themselves therapists or counsellors and what they pedal is fancy talk, yak yak yak about openess and acceptance, words, words, words, thats all it is, and you find in the end you know, basically they are 'dorks' who take your money and are probably more messed up than you are. I'm sorry to rant, but they sure can do some damage, not even by being predatory or evil just you know 'dorkish', irresponsible. (Disclaimer, some are very good, I'm sure, like Kevin, but they can be hard to find)

I don't see you as victim, you seem intelligent having lots of insight into the situation. You knew when you posted here you would as you say get other people to verbalise your own reservations. But you must know, as anyone with an ounce of common sense would, that if you wish to take it further as a sexual relationship you cannot do so within the therapeutic context. He would surely be breaching the code of ethics for practising counsellors etc. And you would of course I assume be paying him for the priviledge !

What would bother me is that even if you had a relationship outside the therapeutic relationship I would not trust him not to be forging other 'therapeutic' relationships with women who come to him. I guess he kills two birds with one stone, using his practise as a kind of dating agency and getting paid for it !!! Now I hear he used to be your tutor - oh Wolverine, does he offer all his female students private therapy, lol- its such a cliche.

As you pointed out though I don't think you would have posted here if you yourself did not have doubts. As discussed above 44 can hold more danger than may seem apparent in the situation. For you if you entered into sexual relationship in therapy there may be more emotional damage for you than you realise. If you are very young I would more seriously say steer clear.

 

[void]

BTW have you read 'The Female Malady' by Elaine Showalter.

 

[lightofdarkness]

44 in its EMOTIONAL context reflects anger/singlemindedness/devotion-to-self operating in a context of anticipation/cultivation.

The original 'anticipation' is of issues of WRONG-doing where that 'vibe' has been exploited to include anticipation of issues of RIGHT-doing and so of cultivation - thus the combination of a context of cultivation in which one is operating in a competitive, single-minded, manner.

Wind in LOWER = cultivation, anticipation
Wind in UPPER = becoming influencial

(and so the Wind hexagram reads "with/from cultivation one becomes influencial")

Heaven in LOWER = perseverence
Heaven in UPPER = singlemindedness

Heaven and Lake cover issues of REPLACING context with something considered 'better' - Heaven is more 'erradicating' (competitive and so seduction associated with conquest), Lake is more 'replicating' (mirror, copy, mimic and so the sexual factor as well as the 'showbiz' factor etc)

Wind is more the 'replacing end' of the set of trigrams/hexagrams that focus on SHARING context with others, having to coexist such that replacement is a 'no no' so the best is to avoid erradication by getting 'them' to come to your side, your perspective of what should happen etc.

The hexagrams of a Wind base are as close as one can get in the context of sharing space, coexisting, to replacement where the replacement is not 'immediate', it takes time since that is the only form of 'replacement' possible in the context favouring coexisting!

46, 18, 48, 57, 32, 50, 28, 44

IF we fold back the lines we get to a position of a lack in trust of others and a need for perpetual supervision etc - security seeking etc.

The eight hexagrams of the wind octet share their security seeking with the eight hexagrams of the water octet. The differences are in water is boundary-oriented, 'us vs them', issues of rejection/rejecting, immediate, there is no trust, period. Wind on the other hand is strongly TIME-sensitive such that there is ANTICIPATION of wrong-going and so the time factor.

BOTH rejection and anticipation-of-wrongdoing are REACTIVE and get exploited to become PROACTIVE in the form of being able to REJECT (rather than be concerned with being rejected) as well as being able to anticipate rightdoing etc.

A summary of the full spectrum of 44 is covered in the other recent thread on 44 (or at:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x111110.html )


Chris.

 

[kevin]

Sounds like you are 'eyes wide open'

Wishing you well

--K

 

[micheline]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

He also expressed fears (which he's mentioned before) that if we were to take the physical relationship further I might want to marry him..or that in order for people to see our relationship becoming sexual as genuine rather than exploitation on his part he would have to marry me. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> this is the part that is over the line, this is the part that shows who he is, and wolverine , you seem not to remember saying this.

Even if a man who was NOT my therapist said this to me, I wouldn't sleep with him. Its too insulting.
ETHICS ASIDE,
If you allow this relationship to become overtly sexual, and allow him to feel like you were the one who "needed it" and wanted it, it will be like trying to have sex in a laboratory in order to ascertain emotional results (and not feel like an object??)...like some kind of humanistic experiment...I personally think that such an experiment is doomed from the get-go , not possible at best.

 

[yellowknife]

Gosh, I'm at least eighteen years too old to be a Lolita, but I see what you mean.

Agree, re the danger of the "humanistic experiment". To call it that would be a denial and a distortion at best, but I can see myself falling into that trap in order to rationalise my feelings. I find the biggest safety feeling I've ever known in honesty and congruency though-even about the most uncomfortable things. He is painfully honest about his shadow side. Maybe seeing him grapple with it in this situation makes me feel even more safe. (and yes, he is grappling).

Him saying and thinking that about marriage is troubling me though, you're right to point it out. He's either projecting his own fears big time...or adding up things that I've said over a course of time and extrapolating that what I "really" want is a stable, committed relationship, not a temporary get together. He may be right, he may be wrong, I need to question myself and him.

Void; also on the Lolita theme (!) it wasn't quite the cliche of him as my college tutor. He tutored an adult education course in counselling-I was on one of the other modules, not one that he taught as it happens.

Thanks all for thoughts and feedback.

 

[cal val]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

He also expressed fears (which he's mentioned before) that if we were to take the physical relationship further I might want to marry him..or that in order for people to see our relationship becoming sexual as genuine rather than exploitation on his part he would have to marry me.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>This, I believe, is called priming the pump.


Love,

Val

 

[micheline]

Dear wolverine,
I deleted the lolita part ; )...28 is still very young, though! I send you a big hug and a wish that your spirit guides you wisely.
Micheline

 

[yellowknife]

Thanks Micheline.


"This, I believe, is called priming the pump"

Val- fortunate then that I'm a person and not a pump

 

[peace]

I've not wanted to address this issue of Wolverine's - but I cannot help it so I'll answer with a question:

Wolverine -
What makes you feel flattered by this man?

What does putting yourself in this position do for you?

How does it relate to other issues for you with men?

That's all.

If I knew who this man was - I would report him to the authorities. He is the very type of therapist who gives all therapists a bad name - and many people I know who would go for treatment, know of predators like this one and the trust they have is already so fragile that it is criminal that they cannot find trust in the one place that should be safe (other than trust that was betrayed most likely in childhood).

Too bad "therapists" like this man are allowed to exploit their patients!!

 

[yellowknife]

Peace, to be honest, I'm inclined not to answer and ask that we get this thread back to 44 because I'm beginning to feel a bit...like I'm being asked to justify myself.

However, I started it, tis my fault.

So, to your questions;

i) I don't feel flattered by him. I like him, I believe his liking for me is based on genuine feeling. I'm not in love with him, he's not in love with me.

ii) Putting myself in this position means I can explore issues of intimacy, physicality, relating and my own reactions in an honest space. One in which, through the focus being on me, my issues and reactions, I can't hide in focusing on the Other and forgetting my Self. It also means that I satisfy some needs without the danger and uncertainty of a conventional romantic relationship. My therapist is guaranteed to see me once a week and talk to me about me and about him and me. My usual fear of rejection is thus both exposed, and minimised. Clearly this makes me feel safe but would be a very Bad Thing if I was then unable to transfer the insights gained into another relationship with a man. Currently I don't believe I'm ready or able to make space in my life for a full time committed relationship.

iii) I'm drawn to men with power. Personal power that is, not material. Thus indeed, what a cliche, I would feel attracted to my therapist.
I'm also drawn to honesty, having grown up in an environment containing lots of secrets and lies.
I've had, in the past, a long term live in relationship with a nice man who I found it hard to be emotionally intimate with. Learning to express my wants and needs is thus a big thing for me and feels like a big breakthrough with my therapist. I've also, previously, tended to split off my mind and my body, due to an unaccepting family environment. My relationships with men have thus either been bodily or mentally engaging, not both.
I like time alone very much and have a full life. Not currently conducive to exploring intimacy issues in a conventional relationship, though that's eventually my aim.


Sorry, don't feel like a victim, fragile or unsafe.

 

[bradford_h]

The "eyes wide open" concession - is that tough love? All I could manage to say was good luck.
It's like posing the question: What do you get when the man you love finally divorces his wife to marry you? You get a husband who cheats on his wife. You get love without honor, integrity or ethics. But that's enough for some.

 

[bruce]

Yeouch!

Wolverine, you certainly don't sound naive to me. Contrarily, you know exactly how this fits into your own needs and wants. You're no Lolita, for certain. (too bad; it's a great fantasy!)

I guess your tush is red by now from verbal spankings. No one can condone this because it is so far outside of what mores accept. So if you wanna play, just be willing to pay if you get caught. These admonitions you've gotten here will be child's play by comparison; to say nothing of this indiscriminant man's career and reputation. Easy to say no to temptation when it isn?t staring you in the face. Choose wisely is all I can say.

 

[yellowknife]

Actually, what you've just posted is relevant to what I just came back to the board to post.

I felt disingenuous for not having mentioned something relevant to the reason I came to onlineclarity in the first place. I came to post because of my relationship (not physical) with a man who was separated from his wife but still lived with her. Now they've split completely but he began a relationship with somebody else.

I wondered why I was so drawn to a physically and emotionally unavailable man. Why I gave my power away to him and stopped having a voice. Through the ongoing dialogue and reflection of the therapy process I realised that I'd grown up believing I didn't have a right to a voice (or even a body). The therapy process with a man who openly hears my voice and sees my body has helped me realise that it's only myself who can really allow myself to be. And I can't properly love or be loved until I (let myself) exist.

And in this thread I'll let myself exist.

I've tried for love without a voice, recipricocity, truth. Not enough for me.

 

[cal val]

Wolverine...

When you're through bludgeoning yourself by having lab rat sex with this man, why not get a REAL therapist... and with HER explore the very important questions Peace asked you.

What does putting yourself in this position do for you?

Which answer answers your question, "...why I was so drawn to a physically and emotionally unavailable man."

Being drawn to men who are unavailable is for the purpose of avoiding that ever so scary intimacy... just as having lab rat sex is.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

So striking were the harmful consequences associated with therapist-patient sex that Masters and Johnson wrote: "We feel that when sexual seduction of patients can be firmly established by due legal process, regardless of whether the seduction was initiated by the patient or the therapist, the therapist should be sued for rape rather than malpractice, i.e., the legal process should be criminal rather than civil."

http://kspope.com/sexiss/sexencyc.php

 

[yellowknife]

Val, thanks for the web link, I've been looking for similar. Food for thought, though my interest in the sociology of scientific knowledge means I'm also wary of the often socially proscribed content of research and suspect there's a more diffuse picture available than is presented here. Clearly though patient/health professional abuse is a problem and should be regulated against.

Yes, obviously I fear intimacy. In two years including counselling skills training, being part of a personal development group and individual counselling sessions I've worked on why and, most importantly, how. It's helped me develop more reciprocal, closer friendships and better relationships with family members. I've very recently reached the point where, despite the renewed approaches of the (unavailable) man I was in love with, I've walked away because I felt he wouldn't be willing to sustain a truly intimate relationship.

However, part of my work to change myself lies in accepting my own fear of intimacy. Accepting that sometimes I feel able to be closer to people when they're at something of a distance.

I don't want to endlessly defer intimacy though, seeing it as some far off, nirvana point I may one day magically attain.
It's hard and gradual.

I'm making steps, not as a lab rat, but in a real relationship with a real person with real feelings.

 

[peace]

It's taken me awhile to get through the threads of the past few days since I was away - but these are so good.

For me, 44 has always been difficult because I believe the hexagram speaks to my own seductiveness/addictions and that of seeing the reality I don't want to see about other people - because I don't want to see the truth.

I find it a very soul-searching hexagram. I'm glad I don't get it too often because it bothers me alot when I do.

I really liked Rosada's interpretation about intrusion.
I find that when something - a thought which is almost always bound with my ego, enters my mind, the more I entertain it, the more it grows.

Looking upon it as an intrusion really helps to understand how it can permeate my thinking and then effects what I do.

Also - a few people mentioned some of the feminine psychologists - like Marion Woodman.

Some of our "dreams" are like the demon lovers she mentions. They are the ones that beckon us away from life and to them - much like the narcissitic fathers she talks about - who want to "own" their daughters for the purpose of making themselves whole. These daughters are "brainwashed" to believing the reality their fathers tell them - which really allow the fathers to see a reflection of their own reality through their daughter's eyes.

As a result, the daughter is pulled away from her own life and seduced by this "demon lover".

As Rosada talked about how one can view dreams, I recall several instances when I have laughed at some dreams - knowing that they were seductions from my current life - and if I focused on them, many days could go by and I would believe they were important so I wouldn't have to deal with what I didn't want to deal with in my current life.

As some of you also said - hexagrams can be interpreted on more than one level.
Yes, dreams are important and have very important elements. However, they are also seductive.
As the I Ching says - it's all about balance.

I could go on and on but won't.

Thanks for all the sharing on this thread. It gives me alot to think about.

Rosalie

 

[rosada]

"I could go on and on but I wont."

Yeah, Rosalie, this thread itself is pretty seductive!

Roz

 

[peace]

Touche~
Rosalie

 

[cal val]

Hi Peace...

Wow... that was a great post. Very insightful. I have a gazillion questions you can probably answer since you are so very insightful.

What do you suppose it means when similar events... really extraordinary similar events that seem to support dreams happen... such as a psychic approaching you out of the blue (and then another psychic) and impeccably describing people in your life and retelling events in the dream but with more detail?

Next question... what is your analysis of things... events happening in real life that happened previously in dreams...such as flying Virgin Atlantic Airways... and the monitor on the back of the seat in front of you malfunctions exactly like it did in the dream... right after most of everything else in the dream had already come true... (and your legs are already shaking while you walk onto the plane because most of a dream has already come true, and it's not something that happens all that often in your life... hello?). [Note: Virgin wasn't even a glimmer in Richard Branson's eye yet when the dream happened.]

And one last question, what do you think about people leaving out or ignoring facts and details to make their point. Do think in that case their point is valid?

Thanks for all your help on this Peace. I really appreciate it.

Peace, love and understanding,

Val