How to understand the changing lines in hex. 44

[bradford_h]

One more thing. The biggest obstacle or distraction to understanding this Gua is to seize only upon the two words "Nu Zhuang" Woman/Maiden is/has strong/power and immediately forget everything else while assuming that this is all about empowering women. The P.C. crowd, new agers and feminazis are especially wont to do this. But "Wu yong qu nu", it is not useful to court this woman, is forgotten, apparently just assuming that the Zhou Chinese did not like strong women.
Personally, I think there were a few very strong, witchy women among the Zhouyi authors, and where the book does take pot shots at women it is for being weaker than they need to be in character (fretting over a lost carriage curtain, giving up self-possession for a wealthy man, etc). However, 44 is more about the power we give over to others than the power we assume for ourselves.

 

[jesed]

Hi everybody

I hope I can express well, to avoid misunderstandings and others assum I'm saying something I am not saying

1.- I'm not saying 44 is ONLY about copulation; in the same way I am not saying 44 is ONLY about exercise of Goverment neither saying 44 is ONLY about people destinated to be together. But sometimes, yes 44 is about copulation.

2.- I agree with no to take too literaly the expressions and texts (so, not taking too literaly the text, with a flexible uderstanding as Bradford said, "coming together" can be a sexually coming together, isn't?)

3.- On the other hand, I also agree with no to take too much flexible the expressions and text that any hex and line could mean anything. Peace is not War, and War is not peace, altough Peace can lead to War and War can lead to Peace.

4.- So, related to interpretation of text, I agree with the Balanced Way (as in everythinh in Reality). Flexibility/Literality must not be extrem, but balanced.

5.- Even more, most important that text analysis is Wisdom. Text analysis is needed to learn Yi's Wisdom. But isn't enough to learn Yi's wisdom. And the measure of that is not academic arguments (for others or for oneself), but Reality. At the end, one should responds if one idea (or interpretation)
is confirmed or denyied by reality.

6.- There are several hexagrams that use in its text references to the fundamental relationship for humanity: inter-sex relationships. BUT NOTICE that not every hexagram does (even if faced to questions about inter-sex relationship any hexagram can told something to described it). Some of them has fortune omens (and later developments had said it is because the inter-sex relationship is corect) and some others have pitall omens (and later devleopments had said it is because the relationship is not correct)

7.- Following that idea (with a little basis in text, and further development in later speculations) one can say that, related to hexagrams with texts references to inter-sex relationships, "correct relationship" leads to marriage (like 32 and 53); and "incorrect relationship" leads to not-marriage (like 54 and 44)

8.- Following that idea (every time more based in specullation, but remaining the nexus to original text references), you can say that there are represented diferent stages and cualities of inter-sex relationships. That means 32 is not 44; 44 is not 54; 54 is not 53.

9.- 31 is about (saying "is about", I want to mean that is not it's only meaning, but it can be one of the ways to understanding it) one sex trying to influence other. If the action is correct, it can evolve to marriage; if doesn't, it wouldn't. 32 is about a stable and correct relationship; 53 is about both sex walking correctly step-by-step; 54 is about a relationship ruled by pleasure and free-will (not legal obligation), but with danger of loosing correction; and 44 is about the fact of both sex coming together (including physically: copulation)... if that action is "halfway" is correct and fortunated; if doesn't, is dangerous.

10.- As you know, some later developments had said that 44 is one female wich is courting 5 men. From that image, some had said 44 is about a promiscued person. I don't like that interpretation, but some times this answer describes well that situation IN REALITY (not only about sexual promiscue, but about unfair desire of a goal).

11. Now, as I had say. All this speculations most be faced with reality, in real use of Yi Jing. I had do it. An I had find that several times, 44 is about copulation (as sexual and physical "coming together").

12.- Now, on the other hand, if one is saying that 44 never is about copulation, then how can them argumented that "coming together" exclued a sexual and physical "coming together"?

best wishes

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Jesed-
Just so you know, there was nothing in my notes directed at things you said. Some words I used were coincidentally words you used too.
I just went on and on because this is one of the most misunderstood of all the Gua, when it should be one of the simplest. For some reason the subject of copulation drains the human brain of blood.

 

[jesed]

hi Bradford

"this is one of the most misunderstood of all the Gua, when it should be one of the simplest"

I'm absolutely agree with that, as I wrote on November 09, 2005 - 2:38 am in this post

Oh, another thing.
Now in a "translational-level": I had re-reading your's translations on 44 (both the Simple and the Matrix).
Harmen had said "copulation" is not a correct translation for the name of the hex(except one dictionary). So, I think you can tell us more about it, since it seems that you had found "to copulate" as one of the correct translations for gou4.


Best wishes

 

[void]

Thanks for elucidating Brad, I think I understand. You mean sexual seduction is a powerful symbol of being seduced away from what is more worthy - thats all. Not that all strength in a woman is undesirable -

Refering back to what Bruce said though sometimes if you choose not to follow something you believe inferior, say like certain ways of earning a living, you may end up with no fish to live on. I remember you talking about this on another thread, it had particular resonance for me, thus I had come to associate fish with livelihood, food, money, thus I got puzzled by an association of fish with women, or 44 with the birth canal. Sorry maybe I don't get it as much as I think I do
but I'm here to learn, lol.

 

[bradford_h]

Void-
Yes. This is the seduction of a chance encounter, or the seduction of thinking that this happened for a reason, that it's more meaningful than it is. Gou isn't long-term commitment loving, it's just an affair. So it's easy to find things more worthy.
I think strong women were desirable in the courts in which the Yi arose. You just didn't want them making a drooling fool of you. I like this line from neurocyberneticist Warren McCulloch:

I want a woman with a windy cheek
And eyes as steely as a leveled gun ...

 

[matt]

You dont have to understand complex texts to derive meaning and significance from hexagrams such as 44 - just use your own powers of observation and life experience when the hexagram presents itself in a situation - then you have all the ancient and present knowledge you require.

My own experience of 44 is not directly related to the seduction of a strong woman, it is more to do with the recieving of outside energy with a stable base to articulate it. For example, the outside trigram is Force, great creative power, the inner trigram is ground, the pairing and matching of inner and outer energy. Ground's inner matching recieves Force's outer substance, making the connection seem very intense and immediate. The bottom yin line feeds all of the recieved information to our inner core, giving us an open channel of communication to the 5 yang lines above. So in essence, it feels like experiences are pouring into us, arousing emotions of great intensity and power.

There is a simple solution to understanding 44, when you feel like this, just shift your focus to the outside, try to clarify the experiences you are receiving rather than just let them pour in. In symbolic terms, this can create a central yin line in the outer trigram Force (5th line), and gives you the ability to articulate the great emotions and transform them into useful experience. Now the space (yin lines) serves your energies in two places - your inner core (bottom yin line) and the outer world (5th yin line). This joins yin and yang into a composition that allows the articulating of the yang lines into knowledge. Hmm, I think I've rambled in a bit..

 

[matt]

thats should be "it is moreto do with the recieving of outside energy WITHOUT a stable base to articluare it" sorry

 

[cal val]

I have to say, taking a cue from Matt... and following my experience with 44... I feel that, in his last post, Brad really underestimated what 44 is trying to say. And 44 is trying to warn the querent against just that... underestimating... this woman, this alcohol, these drugs. It is unwise to believe that one can have a short term affair. This is not a woman/substance/whatever to be trifled with. There are other hexagram and line statements that say "short term affair." I don't think 44.0 says that at all, and I don't think 44.2 or 4 say it either.

I believe Rosada read 44 correctly about the intruder on her property, and I believe her response was absolutely appropriate. My really educational experience with 44 (that Rosada helped to call to mind) was the time the two women at work were in a power struggle, and I was the pawn. The one was trying to get me fired because I reported to the other one... told the VP I was taking breaks all day (rather than my lawful three a day). She WAS dangerous to my job and therefore my survival. She had a lot of influence with the VP, and she could have easily gotten my fired.

So... I was taking my (lawful) morning break and consulting the Yi about something totally unrelated, and all they would say for two or three castings was 44 to 28. Suddenly it hit me the Yi was trying to warn me that she was going to make a sneak attack. I jumped up from the table and went right back to work... just moments before she pulled up at my facility. I thanked the force behind the YI with all my heart for the rest of the day. She was not a problem as casual as "a harmless affair"... and she was NOT to be dallied with.

Love,

Val

 

[micheline]

a little like glenn close in Fatal Attraction...it seemed like a harmless affair, but poor michael douglas. never underestimate a psychopathic bitch in heat whose biological clock is ticking loud. the image of 44

 

[void]

uurgh thats nasty, the last sentence I mean. I really don't think its an image of 44, just sounds like pure misogyny to me. And I don't think 44 is about misogyny. Funny though that there a films etc about female stalkers whereas in reality stalking is usually done by the male.

Fatal Attraction was about a woman who was prepared to commit all kinds of unlawful acts to get her man wasn't it ? How on earth can that relate to 44 ?

 

[rosada]

Cool analysis, Matt! Now it makes sence without going into the male/female drama. Perhaps 44. could be retitled, "Too Much, Too Soon." or just, "Waaay too much information."

Micheline, as Void points out, your comparison wasn't very nice, but it was pretty funny..Maybe we could include it in The Moviegoer's Guide to the I Ching!

my2cents,
Rosada

 

[bruce]

Pardon me, but what does nice have to do with anything? Ever try to reason a pregnant wife away from ice cream and pickles? Is a mother bear nice when she makes shredded wheat of a human who got too close to her den? Ever hear of a nice black widow spider, especially to her husband? Anyone who thinks nature is nice might wish to reconsider 44.

 

[kevin]

A movie scene

One of those movies when the screen is all bright white ? nothing else. (Qian).

Then at the bottom a small dark smudge appears, sun, which sullies the perfection of plain brightness. (shock)

Despite all of that perfect bright whiteness that tiny smudge dominates the screen.

It begins to develop? It is a sprouting pushing upwards. A manifestation, which though dominated by all of the brightness, dominates the whole.

It promises something. It is the beginning of something.

Somehow, were the screen to return to plain white, there would be an emptiness.

Or was it a wind (sun) which blew across the all white screen? Unseen, ungraspable, but affecting all.

K Wanders off muttering incoherently to self.

 

[micheline]

I am sorry if my post sounded like misogyny...the *bitch* was referring to a female dog not a woman....and of course, the movie is an image of 44 because the temptation was there and it seemed harmless, but it proved to be very dangerous, for the man who allowed himself to be casually seduced. that to me is the message in 44..but it could just as easily be a man who is seducing a woman...or a seductive type offer of any kind......

glenn close played a psychopath who was very hungry and very desperate....the bitch line sounded harsh but i didnt mean it too...i have a couple of female dogs...but actually it is the male who gets psychopathic when the females are in heat. Men can be dangerous too.

but lets face it, women can be REALLY dangerous...( : just my opinion.

 

[micheline]

Thank you Bruce, for that post. It might explain in part why human women can be so dangerous...we have had a pressure to be "nice" when it isnt natural.

 

[bradford_h]

Actually, Micheline is spot on in describing the kind of power (Zhuang) ascribed or handed over to the woman (Nu) here.
Technically, or according to physics, power is the Rate at which energy changes form. It's value neutral, whether constructve or entropic. The power to collapse order is the easiest to succumb to as it obeys entropy. Falling apart releases all of the energy used to maintain order, the energy of restraint that is the subject of Hexagram 44. And it takes a lot to resist entropy. That's why the king has to repeat his commands (in 44.X) - they get all undone by the wind.
The power to get something specific done is the subject of Hexagram 34, Da Zhuang, great power. This is more work than brute force. It needs sensitivity to the right time and place, "it shows itself in the pause", it is "found in the vehicle's motionless axle".

 

[micheline]

thanks Brad. what you point out about entropy and power is very interesting

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Micheline-
Do you not pick up notes sent to the eMail address at your profile? I tried to ask you a question off- forum and would still like to.
brad

 

[bruce]

Yes, very interesting points, Brad. It is always easier to succumb, unless there is a stronger reason not to. And this reason needs to be firm and repeated to build resolve.

That said, it is also true that such strong resolve can itself become a disintegrating influence, the maiden of 44. Hence the creative power spurred on by the woman can also liberate and bring new life.

 

[jte]

On Brad's point that:

"The power to collapse order is the easiest to succumb to as it obeys entropy. Falling apart releases all of the energy used to maintain order, the energy of restraint that is the subject of Hexagram 44. And it takes a lot to resist entropy. That's why the king has to repeat his commands (in 44.X) - they get all undone by the wind. "

Interesting to compare 23 and 44 in this light. I'll have to mull that over...

On Val's point about the very real danger:

I agree (and indeed have an experience to back it up), but I'd also point out that just how dangerous the tempting thing is depends on the situation.

To take the example of a short-term relationship. A dalliance might not really cause much trouble for a couple of 19 year olds. Maybe some post-breakup bitterness, but little permanent damage. (Of course it *might* if there's STDs involved or the guy goes crazy and becomes a stalker, but that's probably not the usual case.)

On the other hand, a dalliance between married adults with families has could perhaps have much worse consequences. So, IMO, the actual level of the danger and potential negative consequences depend on the specifics of the situation.

The example I alluded to earlier: On a lark I asked the Yi for open-ended advice about a cell phone I received as a Christmas gift. Answer was 44.1. I was surprised at this answer, but got the message: this thing is potentially dangerous. Sure enough about two months later there I was slamming on the brakes in my car, nearly rear-ending someone while trying to make a call with it.

A potential source of problems? Most definitely. Sure to cause destruction? Not if handled correctly. I do tend to be *real* careful with it now, though...

- Jeff

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Jeff

Interesting to compare 23 and 44 in this light. I'll have to mull that over...

Yeah - they're both the inverse of the opposite and the opposite of the inverse of each other. Who would've Ever thought that meant something

 

[anita]

I was haunted by 44 regarding a Dutch copywriter I met in a bar in Maastricht last year. So I did not think it was going to be a great romance, anyway. He invited me to see Amsterdam by boat (his boat) and I took it up. I'd just broken up with long time long-distance German love. My Dutch fling turned out to be extremely sex-oriented, but he still keeps in touch.

44 to me seems synonymous with sexual encounters.

Best for your Quest

Anita

 

[yellowknife]

I logged onto this site interested to see how the "44" discussions" had developed over the past few days. I'd felt I wanted to contribute but hadn't been sure what I had to say.

First though I did a casting for my current situation with an unconventional humanistic/existential counsellor I'm in a therapeutic relationship with.

Where are things between us now?

44,2,3,4 to 45

How are they developing?

44,6 to 28.

Aha...no wonder I had 44 on my mind.

I'll share this because I think it's a relevant side of 44, though I feel slightly vulnerable in sharing;

I've been seeing this counsellor a year for personal development reasons and because I'm about to be in training to be a counsellor. He's been open about finding me sexually and mentally attractive. I feel the same about him but am generally very reticent about being open about my feelings for people, especially sexual ones.

It became obvious to me that I was witholding these feelings/thoughts and felt uncomfortable with portraying myself as a sexual/feminine being to him or expressing my wants/needs in that way.

This has been interesting to work on in the counselling sessions and is relevant to many of my issues. I have gradually begun to express this side of me more, though have felt vulnerable in doing so (and very, very worried about being seen as a "bunny boiler" type in consequence).

I have begun to do so, and also to realise that I often keep my body out of the sessions (by literally not mentioning it). The counsellor has commented in the past that my body language is held in, and aloof. We were talking about this last week and he suddenly asked me to stand up and made to hug me. I looked up at him, felt as if I wanted to kiss him, which he realised in shock and exclaimed. I kissed him on the lips but pulled back, we hugged and sat down.

He then said that he was shocked that the embrace had so quickly become sexualised and that it was a contrast to physical signals I'd given over previous months. He also said he'd felt "panicked". I, in contrast said I felt calm and detached. I actually felt pleased that he realised I was a sexual being and not as repressed as he thought. He also expressed fears (which he's mentioned before) that if we were to take the physical relationship further I might want to marry him..or that in order for people to see our relationship becoming sexual as genuine rather than exploitation on his part he would have to marry me.

Although I wouldn't usually identify myself as the maiden of 44, he seems to be reacting as if I am.

To be honest, from the maiden's point of view...that's empowering and liberating. I'm claiming a dormant part of myself. Our clumsy embrace felt like how Lise describes line 3 as lacking "decorum" but "healthy". And expressing my wants and needs in such an unaccustomed way "with all the forces one has" like in line 6, has made me realise how often previously I've shied away from asserting my physical, female being...almost as if I didn't exist in that way.

Reading Karen Horney's "Feminine Psychology" has helped me see some links to my childhood in which my mother denigrated my femininity in order to preserve her sense of her own.

Finally I asked "what if our therapeutic relationship became sexual?"
and got 28,2, 3 to 45.

A risky situation for both of us...but it feels like I need this lesson in forceful maidenhood...

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Wolverine-

There are REALLY REALLY good reasons why mixing therapy and reationships is considered unequivocally unprofessional and unethical. This is trouble. If you are in training to become a counselor, this is something you need to know right away. This can cost someone their license to practice. At the very least, the professional part of the relationship should be ended immediately.

b

 

[yellowknife]

I think for me ending the professional part would be more damaging than ending or neutralising the other part.

Also that in analytic model therapeutic relationships then absolutely they shouldn't be mixed.

But...in a humanistic therapy, then maybe, maybe a dual relationship might not always be against the therapeutic aims..if the therapeutic aims are about developing a real, human relationship.

Also counsellor/client sexual relationships are astonishingly prevalent. Agree that this doesn't make it right...but there are many indicators that existing ways of practice within therapy may commonly lead to this breaking of established rules- and it's not always about exploitation and skewed power relationships.

I'm interested in boundaries and their breaking- and it may come to me as a responsible decision to investigate their breaking in this instance.

Line 44,2 feels very, very relevant here.

 

[micheline]

Wolverine,
I agree with Brad and I am a little appalled at this man's behavior/words. He has violated the boundaries of a safely therapeutic relationship.

I don't believe you can separate your sexual self from the rest of you in a therapeutic relationship and you should not be expected to. That's why the boundaries need to be there, and they need to be established by the therapist. It isn't ethical for him to do otherwise.

YES, breaking boundaries can be a good thing..but in this case, is it self-defeating?
It is hard to know which doors are right doors if one has never known the right door to begin with. HOwever the wrong doors are those which will cause you to feel outcast all over again.
Estes: Women Who Run With the Wolves

If there is sexual trauma or wound in your past, this seems like a place where you can be re-traumatized.

where can it possibly take you?
not to learning about a "real human relationship" ...this man is already being sneaky and trying to devise ways to cover his butt.
I would run ike the wind.
Concerned for you! Micheline

 

[yellowknife]

I understand people will have concerns over this issue- and perhaps knowing that I shouldn't have posted here.

I did think it was relevant to 44 though and that there are relevant things to be said without hijacking the thread.

Thanks for your concern, but truly, truly I'm approaching this consciously. I have friends with other perspectives around me too, and won't be alone, nor, I believe re-wounded. Previous wounds in my life have more been about communication and repression and I feel the therapeutic space I'm in is safe.

 

[bradford_h]

Well, the subject was and is seduction.
As long as your mind's made up, good luck to you.

 

[bruce]

Wolverine, I think I can see your side here as well as Micheline?s and Brad?s. You are in it, while we can only look at it. Trying to place myself in your (or his) position, it would be better to employ a different therapist. That protects both of you and still would allow something personal to develop between you. Nothing wrong with falling in love with a therapist so long as he isn?t yours. Love is it?s own therapy. I have to say, though, the fact that he?s made his physical attraction known to you while engaged in professional therapy is not encouraging.

Good fathers teach their sons to think with their big head. I?m sure there?s a similar metaphor for women. Think, not just feel. That too is 44?s message.