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flashlight

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Hi folks,
A forever friend and her husband in the US rescue abandonned newborn kittens, socialize them, make sure they are healthy and find them good homes. She was going to bring me one on a recent visit, but British Airways did not allow pets in the cabin. So the idea now is that I'd toddle over to fetch it and enjoy the holidays on the other side of the pond. I actually have to choose between two cats, but the choice would also be up to them of course.

Context: Lost my cat (21 years!) a little over a year ago. Cat had raised dog (13). Dog is healthy, probably likes having me to himself but at the same time, though he is rarely alone (I work at home), he has become a bit withdrawn since being a solo pet. Vet also thinks cat company might be good for him.

Sure, it's nutty to envisage bringing a 6 month old cat back across the ocean rather than adopting locally. But the clear advantage is that I know how the cat has been weaned and socialized, it's already used to dogs and 'bad surprises' are unlikely (my old cat was a rescue feral and the first 5 years were, let's say, hell -- but he was a great traveler and crossed the Atlantic with me several times without a problem).

But I would like to be sure I'm doing the right thing, for the kitten and my dog.

What would a kitten do for my dog? 33.3.5 to 35
There's that image of retreating, which seems to fit "the blues" we think he's been having. But would the cat be the gift to help him advance?

What would the effect be of coming back with one of my friend's cats? 53.3 to 20
Li Se writes "There must be a permanent thread in your emotions, reactions and deeds, so others can expect what you will do next. If there is not, cooperation or building up a life together is not possible. A solid structure is necessary. " Well... having animals, and usually one of each, has been part of my life structure typically... But is there something here I am supposed to see and don't?

Putting aside the cats' input into the choice, should I choose cat A (a very small cat, practical for travel!)? 51.4 to 24 -- depending on the POV taken, I could take this in many different ways...

Should I choose cat B (who, just from the pictures and videos, is the one I lean toward): 23.6, but the fan yao with black and yellow dragon blood always gives me the creeps.

Asked a last "control" question - what if I don't bring back one of my friend's cats? 16.2.4.6 to 4 -- hmm the only question with many changing lines whose meanings range from one extreme to the other. With a 4, always "hear" Yi, even if it is a resulting hex, telling me to stop asking.

Insights appreciated. Gratitude to those who've read through this post! :bows:
 
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diamanda

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Hi flashlight, I'll give it a go.

What would a kitten do for my dog? 33.3.5 > 35
33.3 - your dog would feel forced to stop retreating. There would be severe hate/envy. The line also very interestingly mentions "domestic animals" (畜) and says that to keep both male and female is lucky. So I would say initially your dog wouldn't like the cat, but if they belong to opposite sexes it will bode better for the future.
33.5 - friendly retreat, and perseverance is lucky. Your dog would still be withdrawn, but would eventually be ok with the kitten.
35 - this probably means that the future bodes well, lots of interaction maybe.

What would the effect be of coming back with one of my friend's cats? 53.3 > 20
It will make you doubt you did the right thing, you'll be thinking of separation.

should I choose cat A (a very small cat, practical for travel!)? 51.4 > 24
After the initial shock dies down, things will be nice and easy.

Should I choose cat B (who, just from the pictures and videos, is the one I lean toward): 23.6 > 2
Someone loses in this equation. Probably the kitty ('small') loses something.
The fan yao shows what the answer is not, so don't worry about it.

what if I don't bring back one of my friend's cats? 16.2.4.6 > 4
Frequent changes of mind (16.2), stress (16.4), loss of illusion (16.6), ignorance/immaturity (4).
Doesn't sound that good to me.
 

flashlight

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Diamanda,

You get the medal of courage for giving this a go! Many thanks for your time & care.

To respond to some of your comments --
Both kitties are females (as all animals that have appeared in my life have been male, I wanted a change!!) so that would fit the gender warning you saw in 33.3.5 to 35.
I wouldn't want my dog to feel "forced" to stop withdrawing, but rather once he got over the fact I'd left him a few weeks and came back with an "intruder" he'd have to share me with (and I should think he would...), he might benefit from a bit of stimulation. He does perk up when he sees a strolling neighbor cat in the yard and goes over for a proper greeting.... I do want this to be good for him. It would obviously be good for me, or I wouldn't envisage it, but not at his expense (or the kitten's).

I'm confused looking at your answer to 53.3 to 20 and to my last question. Yeah! I'm going back and forth on this because it's a long trip for the kitten, the questions on how the dog and the kitten would fare etc. So your answer to my last question makes sense. But it seems to be somewhat duplicated in 53.3 -- doubting I did the right thing and thinking of separation (giving the cat up for adoption or??)

On the cat choice question, cat A would be adopted by my friend's sister in law if I did not take her. I get first dibs and my friend would prefer that I take her anyway. But cat B, if I didn't take her, would be put up for general adoption, she wouldn't stay "in the family" so to speak. So your view of 23.6 to 2 doesn't make sense to me..

Should I choose cat B (who, just from the pictures and videos, is the one I lean toward): 23.6 > 2
Someone loses in this equation. Probably the kitty ('small') loses something.
The fan yao shows what the answer is not, so don't worry about it.


Waiting to hear from a friend who was open to taking my dog during my absence, wanted her to "put a think on it" and make sure she was OK with it. Otherwise the whole trip is out the window....
 
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diamanda

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Haha, thanks for the medal :bows:

On the cat choice question, cat A would be adopted by my friend's sister in law if I did not take her. I get first dibs and my friend would prefer that I take her anyway. But cat B, if I didn't take her, would be put up for general adoption, she wouldn't stay "in the family" so to speak. So your view of 23.6 to 2 doesn't make sense to me..

I had another look at this line, you're right, what I wrote didn't make much sense.
Line 23.6 mentions travel. The superior man receives a carriage. This probably means you.
A small person strips/peels their hut or shed.
You said cat A is smaller than cat B. So if you take cat B, then the smaller cat will 'lose' something?
Or cat B will come over to your place and shred it? (hope not!)

I don't fully grasp what this is saying, but for sure it speaks of travel, and refers to someone small.
On the logical side, the way you've put it, it makes sense to take cat B.
On the divination side, I'd personally choose cat A.

As about all the indecision, I believe it would be because of the initial difficulties with your dog.
 

flashlight

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Cat A is "popular" (sought out for adoption) because she's a mini cat -- in other words just under 2/3 of what a "normal" cat size/weight would be at her age (like cat b). Folks tend to think small is cute/cuter. I just thought "how practical" since my future cat would continue in the family tradition of travels :)
Both cats would be "losing" something -- ie, the only home they've known so far and their surrogate mom.
But it would be cat B, if I took cat A, who'd lose the most in my eyes -- cat A has another adoption candidate within the family if I didn't take her; cat B doesn't.

Either way, the cats have a say in this. One may "click" with me more obviously than the other. Or neither may click at all. It has to be a mutual adoption.
 

flashlight

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The dog sitting question has been answered and so I can proceed with trip planning, yay!

Reflecting on what you'd said, Diamanda:
On the logical side, the way you've put it, it makes sense to take cat B.
On the divination side, I'd personally choose cat A.


I asked Yi:
- What do I need to know about cat A? 49.1.4.5 to 15 -- to me a very powerful and positive answer
- What would the relationship be between my dog and cat A : 64 UC -- I sense a hesitation in there, a tension -- not sure if it would ebb so that they would in time "complete" and be positive interdependent pals or if 64 UC suggests that would never happen, leaving them as simply coexisting under the same roof.

What do I need to know about cat B? 12.1.3.4 to 37 Hmm, wondering if this is a reflection of her current "status" (ie not in competition to get adopted "within" the family) and her apparent efforts to get attention (always the first among the kittens to seek lap time and TLC). Hillary writes
Line 4
'There is a mandate, no mistake.
Work with clarity, fulfilment.'

The resulting hex, 37, is a home - the one she is in (for now) or the one she seeks and could have if I adopted her?
- What would the relationship be between my dog and cat B? 1.2.6 to 49 Hex 1 tends to confuse the heck out of me, there is so much energy there that is sometimes hard to channel. Particularly curious since cat B from what I am told is the more mellow and gentle of the two cats. I used to look at the fan yao to get a clearer understanding, but Diamanda you noted that the fan yao is "what the answer is not" ... which made me seriously rethink how I have been doing my readings (looooong learning curve!)

It's probably silly to use the Yi for this subject, but on the other hand it would be interesting to see what ultimately happens (choice of cat and relationship with dog) and how that meshes with what we've written here.
 
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diamanda

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You're asking about your household members, for sure that's not silly.
Glad to hear the dog sitting issue has been solved.

What do I need to know about cat A? 49.1.4.5 > 15
I agree with you, nice answer indeed.
The character of this cat is not what you'll first think. She will initially appear to be docile (49.1). When she changes owner (49.4) however, then "great lord tiger change". Line 49.5 "acts strongly and firmly with self-confidence like a glossy tiger after shedding". So I guess the 'docile' kitty will eventually do what most cats do (she will take it that she's the lord of your house). I like 15, it's a very decent hexagram. So she will be a mild and decent ruler of your house :rolleyes:

What would the relationship be between my dog and cat A : 64 UC
I had the same initial thoughts as you did about 64 unchanging. The Image says: "Thus the superior man is careful In the differentiation of things, So that each finds its place." So perhaps their relationship is not already determined, it's not known as the little fox hasn't crossed the stream yet. I believe a lot would depend on you - on how you plan to determine the right "place" for each animal in your home.

What do I need to know about cat B? 12.1.3.4 > 37
Maybe this cat has a tendency to stray (12.1, drawing away with someone of like kind) or to literally pull out grass (do you have plants?). 12.3 shows covering something shameful (naughty cat?). 12.4 speaks of accepting a mandate, so, she would actually listen to you maybe? Or this might mean that she would mainly obey her instincts. I like 37 as a resulting hexagram too. I wonder if in this case it shows a strong urge for the cat to be a mother (although I'm guessing she'll be neutered?).

What would the relationship be between my dog and cat B? 1.2.6 > 49
One of the two would feel and behave arrogantly with the other, and there would be a revolutionary feel about their relationship.
 

flashlight

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You're asking about your household members, for sure that's not silly.
Thanks, Diamanda :)
What do I need to know about cat A? 49.1.4.5 > 15
I agree with you, nice answer indeed.
The character of this cat is not what you'll first think. She will initially appear to be docile (49.1). When she changes owner (49.4) however, then "great lord tiger change". Line 49.5 "acts strongly and firmly with self-confidence like a glossy tiger after shedding". So I guess the 'docile' kitty will eventually do what most cats do (she will take it that she's the lord of your house). I like 15, it's a very decent hexagram. So she will be a mild and decent ruler of your house :rolleyes:

It's funny, bec as the two kittens are described to me, it is cat B that is the most docile, gentle and mega affectionate one! These kittens live with about a half dozen other rescue kittens in the downstairs flat, coming up on occasion to interact with my friend's 2 dogs and 2 cats. So in all circumstances, they are one of many. It's logical to think their characters would evolve when becoming the ONLY cat in a household with an ONLY dog. But I would like zen, docile, calm -- I need a replay of the first years of my former cat like I need a whole in the head (=hell) and my elderly dog needs respect!

What would the relationship be between my dog and cat A : 64 UC
I had the same initial thoughts as you did about 64 unchanging. The Image says: "Thus the superior man is careful In the differentiation of things, So that each finds its place." So perhaps their relationship is not already determined, it's not known as the little fox hasn't crossed the stream yet. I believe a lot would depend on you - on how you plan to determine the right "place" for each animal in your home.

It's rank and age! Before, my cat got top billing - he was there first and was much older than the dog. Now, reverse: the dog would get priority in the household's hierarchical organization!

What do I need to know about cat B? 12.1.3.4 > 37
Maybe this cat has a tendency to stray (12.1, drawing away with someone of like kind) or to literally pull out grass (do you have plants?). 12.3 shows covering something shameful (naughty cat?). 12.4 speaks of accepting a mandate, so, she would actually listen to you maybe? Or this might mean that she would mainly obey her instincts. I like 37 as a resulting hexagram too. I wonder if in this case it shows a strong urge for the cat to be a mother (although I'm guessing she'll be neutered?).

Both cats are spayed. From what I have been told, cat B seeks affection big time (super glue mode) and is described as the most gentle and affectionate kitten my friend has ever rescued. It's odd to me how readings about cat B describe her very differently from what my friend observes about her, that's puzzling...

What would the relationship be between my dog and cat B? 1.2.6 > 49
One of the two would feel and behave arrogantly with the other, and there would be a revolutionary feel about their relationship.

Ugh, I don't like the sound of that at all. My dog, since puppyhood, is so incredibly gentle, he won't even "hurt" his chewbone (he walks it around and licks it, won't ngaw at it...). He was completely dominated by and a slave to the wild cat who raised him. I know he misses the company, but I get the sense he appreciates no longer being bossed around. I'd like for him to have a friend, not to cower in fear!

Thank you, very much, Diamanda, for these conversations with me. Sometimes, wanting to make sure one is doing the right thing is stressful indeed!
 

Liselle

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Flashlight, would the cat have to spend time in quarantine, since you'd be bringing her in from a foreign country? If so, for how long? Are there laws about that where you live?

Looking at the first reading - Yi usually answers questions directly, but not always, and it might be possible to interpret 33>35 as "retreat from this opportunity." (35 is about advancing through a gift or opportunity.)

These readings are confusing to me, though. The 16.2.4.6 > 4 one, about not doing this...the hexagrams taken together could mean something like "enthusiasm against a background of not knowing." That sounds (to me) like a combination to be careful with.

I agree the lines seem to lead to different conclusions. We're taught in Hilary's Foundations course that one way to think about that is that each line position has a different meaning.

Second lines are about relationship and connection in your inner world - in this case, perhaps the connection between your friends and yourself. You know them, you trust them, you're comfortable with how they've raised the kittens. So in that context, what does the line say?

'Boundaries turning to stone,
Not for a whole day.
Constancy, good fortune.'
(from Hilary's book)

This line isn't the clearest thing on earth to me, but it might be saying that your ties to your friends are "hardening" this decision for you, and maybe they shouldn't be. You're starting out with the understandable "boundary" of "I'd like to adopt one of my friends' foster kittens" - maybe the line suggests this idea-boundary should be a little more flexible?

"Constancy" can be tricky, I think. You have to be clear on constancy to what, and I don't think it's always "the idea I've envisaged." It could mean something like "persevere in looking for a suitable kitten."

Fourth lines are about implementation, just over the threshold into the outer world, doing something in reality. 16.4's text is:

'Source of enthusiasm.
Great possessions gained.
Do not doubt.
Partners are gathered together as a hair clasp gathers hair.'


That sounds good, but your question was about not doing this. An encouraging line about not doing something might mean things will work out great in some other way, that there's another alternative that will have a happy ending.

Sixth lines are about standing outside the situation, getting an overview, being detached or objective, the end of the story, the outcome, or something in the longer term.

16.6 says,

'Enthusiasm in the dark.
Results bring a change of heart,
No mistake.'


"Enthusiasm in the dark" could mean you're enthusiastic about something that isn't yet clear enough. I don't know what that is, but "results bring a change of heart" might mean that becoming clear (shedding light, making more visible) will cause you to re-evaluate. Or maybe trying to separate this from yourself, looking at it in a more sage-like way, perhaps as if it's someone else's decision, might change things?
 

flashlight

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Lisa,

Goodness, you've given me a lot to chew on! Thank you in particular for the insight on the line positions, that is very helpful.

Of course, there are many ways to interpret these readings - that's part of richness (and opacity sometime) of the Yi. When I'm starting to split hairs, I tend to go with my gut. Most times of course, I just mutter, Yi, what are you trying to tell me? LOL!

Flashlight, would the cat have to spend time in quarantine, since you'd be bringing her in from a foreign country? If so, for how long? Are there laws about that where you live?
No, no quarantine. I would not even consider it if there were.

Looking at the first reading - Yi usually answers questions directly, but not always, and it might be possible to interpret 33>35 as "retreat from this opportunity." (35 is about advancing through a gift or opportunity.)
Well, the question was about my dog. He has no clue what's cookin', so it would seem to me he can neither retreat nor move forward with this opportunity, he is not actor in this. FWIW, I think the Yi correctly described his current state.

The 16.2.4.6 > 4 one, about not doing this...the hexagrams taken together could mean something like "enthusiasm against a background of not knowing." That sounds (to me) like a combination to be careful with.

It was a kind of "throw away/control by asking the reverse" question and whenever I see 4, I hear the Yi griping, oh stop asking, there is not black and white answer :). And of course there is a backgound of not knowing; I've not met the cats. Most cats take to me, a few do not. A few cats I've crossed paths with I have had either no feeling or negative feeligns toward. I do not exclude the variant that one of the other feral kittens in my friend's care might appear to be a revelation!

Second lines are about relationship and connection in your inner world - in this case, perhaps the connection between your friends and yourself. You know them, you trust them, you're comfortable with how they've raised the kittens. So in that context, what does the line say?

'Boundaries turning to stone,
Not for a whole day.
Constancy, good fortune.'
(from Hilary's book)

This line isn't the clearest thing on earth to me, but it might be saying that your ties to your friends are "hardening" this decision for you, and maybe they shouldn't be. You're starting out with the understandable "boundary" of "I'd like to adopt one of my friends' foster kittens" - maybe the line suggests this idea-boundary should be a little more flexible?
There is no obligation and all agree that there must be a clear bipede-feline click. The big advantage compared to adopting a rescue kitten here is that I know what its early months of life have been and that it has been properly socialized (humans, cats, dogs, etc), has had its vaccinations and so on and is healthy. It's a pretty big gamble if I adopted locally. Solo, I'd take the risk. For my dog's sake, a bit more certainty on background and behaviour is a big plus.

"Constancy" can be tricky, I think. You have to be clear on constancy to what, and I don't think it's always "the idea I've envisaged." It could mean something like "persevere in looking for a suitable kitten."

Fourth lines are about implementation, just over the threshold into the outer world, doing something in reality. 16.4's text is:

'Source of enthusiasm.
Great possessions gained.
Do not doubt.
Partners are gathered together as a hair clasp gathers hair.'


That sounds good, but your question was about not doing this. An encouraging line about not doing something might mean things will work out great in some other way, that there's another alternative that will have a happy ending.

Sixth lines are about standing outside the situation, getting an overview, being detached or objective, the end of the story, the outcome, or something in the longer term.

16.6 says,

'Enthusiasm in the dark.
Results bring a change of heart,
No mistake.'


"Enthusiasm in the dark" could mean you're enthusiastic about something that isn't yet clear enough. I don't know what that is, but "results bring a change of heart" might mean that becoming clear (shedding light, making more visible) will cause you to re-evaluate. Or maybe trying to separate this from yourself, looking at it in a more sage-like way, perhaps as if it's someone else's decision, might change things?

Hmm. Quite a different spin from mine and Diamanda's...Talk about confusion!
Perhaps it speaks to the timeline. The holidays are a long way off still. Many things can happen / go awry / change. I have a non-refundable ticket so I'll be traveling anyway. The only thing one can count on is change, right?
 

Liselle

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Most times of course, I just mutter, Yi, what are you trying to tell me? LOL!
Me too, and sometimes (just last night) this leads to "interesting" encounters with Yi.

Well, the question was about my dog. He has no clue what's cookin', so it would seem to me he can neither retreat nor move forward with this opportunity, he is not actor in this. FWIW, I think the Yi correctly described his current state.

I think what struck me, about the situation and series of readings in general, was you had a plan - fly overseas, adopt kitten from friends, fly back, introduce kitten to dog - and the first question you asked was very specific: "What would a kitten do for my dog?" If I'm understanding correctly, that question assumed the plan was a good one and you'd be carrying it out, rather than asking Yi about it to begin with. Then when I saw "Retreat" as the answer, I thought it was possible Yi was taking a step back to the beginning, and saying "retreat from this whole thing." But - needless to say - I don't know that for sure.

It was a kind of "throw away/control by asking the reverse" question
I think asking that sort of question is a really good idea. But there was never a "paired" question, as I said above. I thought Yi might have been addressing that aspect - "Aha - Flashlight is enthusiastic about this - and finally she's asking me about the plan itself rather than the details of its aftermath - " and then in the other post I said what I thought 16>4 might mean in that context.

and whenever I see 4, I hear the Yi griping, oh stop asking
Yes, but that's probably not the only thing it can mean. The oracle text is:

'‘Not knowing, creating success.
I do not seek the young ignoramus, the young ignoramus seeks me.
The first consultation speaks clearly.
The second and third pollute the waters,
Polluted, and hence not speaking.

Constancy bears fruit.’


I suppose my take on that might be that all your previous questions "polluted" (a strong word, "muddied" might be better) the waters, and didn't give Yi a chance to speak. (Again, the bit about starting the readings in the middle.)

There is no obligation and all agree that there must be a clear bipede-feline click.

You'd know whether you and the kitten get along, but what if your dog and the kitten don't click? If they don't get along after you've flown the kitten across the ocean, then what? That could of course be a problem even if you'd adopt locally, depending where/whom you'd adopt from...the only shelter I'm familiar with here (about that particular policy) says if things aren't working out, they'll try to help solve problems but if all else fails you can return the cat to them (they do try to help it not get to that point, but...)

The big advantage compared to adopting a rescue kitten here is that I know what its early months of life have been and that it has been properly socialized (humans, cats, dogs, etc), has had its vaccinations and so on and is healthy. It's a pretty big gamble if I adopted locally. Solo, I'd take the risk. For my dog's sake, a bit more certainty on background and behaviour is a big plus.

I agree all that is important; I'd want to know, too...and of course I don't know how adoptions work where you are. Here, if you adopt from a shelter, you do know that sort of thing, as best as they know. Shelters always spay/neuter, give vaccinations, ensure that the animal is healthy and generally in an "adoptable state," and they do provide information like "this kitten has/has not lived with dogs/other cats/children, is/is not scaredy" etc. - to the best of their ability, which is not 100% foolproof anyway. If you're adopting privately (e.g. neighbor with kittens living in woodpile), you'd have to do and find out those things yourself (take the kitten to your own vet and so forth).

Perhaps it speaks to the timeline. The holidays are a long way off still. Many things can happen / go awry / change. I have a non-refundable ticket so I'll be traveling anyway.

I'm never in favor of things "going awry" :eek:uch:, but it's certainly nice there's no pressure. :)
 

flashlight

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Hi Lisa,
Thanks again for taking the time to answer.
OK, i get why for you some questions were out of context. So here is the background story.
The kitten idea has been on the docket for a while. I had discussed it with the vet, who knows both my animals' horrid histories and that they were medical miracles (cat wasn't supposed to live much past 4 and died at almost 21; dog - from shelter - who turned out had autoimmune meningitis, had an experimental chemo treatment, and is now nearly 14 healthy, no relapse, no meds). Vet felt it was probably a good idea for dog's physical and mental health. I have looked around (virtually) locally (if I go to a shelter, I would NOT resist taking one home, regardless of **anything**), taking my time. My friend knew this and when she was preparing her trip to come visit in September, she immediately thought of bringing me cat A (bec she is particularly keen on her *and* the kitten is a tiny cat which would make my travels easier). Save that there was no time to get cat A compliant with international regulations. My friend immediately thought of cat B, the super duper affectionate one. But turned out my friend was flying with an airline that does not allow pets in the cabin. Which is how the idea of this double win - spend holidays back in the US after 16 years and bring back cat, if things clicked.
I had asked Yi -- when I come for help here, it's for the "ultimate questions". I don't list all the questions I might have asked Yi over a certain period of time, and perhaps that is where the problem lies. And sometimes, Yi gives different answers to similar questions, and that confuses me.

The first time I asked Yi about this plan (what do you think about my going to the US and bringing back a kitten), I received 17.5 > 51, which to me sounded like a resounding YEAH!
The second time I asked Yi about this plan (the first reading I posted here - what would be the effect of coming back with one of my friend's cats), it replied 53.3 > 20. Thus, at the end of that conversation with Yi, my control "reverse" question (the 16>4 that calls for a lot of debate). So, to me, that was a paired question, and I had asked (but hadn't posted it) the Yi about the overall idea from the outset.

The likelihood that one of those cats and my dog, behaviorally, would not get along is slim to none. My dog was raised by a wild cat who, until it got quite old, was like a drill sergent with the dog --took him for a poney, stole his food, with one look or the quiver of a mustache had total control over the dog whose only reaction would be exit, stage left. But they were pals, always in proximity of one another, and it showed in the mutual TLC anytime one of them was sick. In the country, we meet lots of outside cats (feral or not) - never has one of them been afraid of my dog or shown agression towards him. My dog would see a cat, stay calm, and wait for the cat to come over and say hi. So behaviorally, I don't see danger, attacks, arguments, problems. Just a little rivalry for my attention, but that's normal and up to me to manage wisely.
What I cannot know until they meet and cohabitate is whether my dog and new kitten will become real friends -- like all the previous dog/cat combos I've had and who had not grown up together. That would be really nice for them, I would be very happy to observe that kind of interspecies relationship again and the joy it brings the two animals.

To address some of your questions/interpretations, I just asked Yi two other questions (hmm.. polluted answers??):
- so tell me again what you think of the plan of going to the US and bringing back a kitten for my dog?
39.2 >48 (talk about being open to interpretation depending on POV!)
- how would my dog be if he remained an only pet? 24.1>2 - which also I can interpret in two wholly different ways...

:bows:
 

Liselle

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Argh. Those are confusing. I'll have to try giving it some thought if I can. (I have some personal matters to take care of and less time than I'd like for the forum right now, but this thread caught my eye since it's about a cat...lol.)

17.5. I had a run-in with this line myself, which changed my perspective on it. I'd always just taken it as a happy, favorable line, but it turns out that the specific words mean something (go figure).

'True and confident in excellence.
Good fortune.'


"True and confident in excellence." Fu through excellence? The "excellence" is a crucial part - in my case, it meant I had to be excellent, not that everything currently was excellent. Here's something Bradford Hatcher said about it:

I would ask if you really meant the phrase "give it all I have got." 17.5 is about aiming high, setting high standards. But if you don't mean it it´s a big screw up.

Here's Bradford's commentary from his own book (if you haven't downloaded it already, it's highly recommended):

If there are too many choices and not enough lifetime for every digression, maybe the best way to limit them is to set higher standards. Not higher ideals, but higher realities. Life is not tested or greatly advanced by the easy ordeals. Great strides are seldom taken in lockstep with others. We learn to swim best in cold water over our heads, when we are most alive to the living yet to be done. To face greater contexts and challenges will more likely cure us of snobbery than it will foster conceit. The superior man is a humbler man, in spite of all he has conquered. Selection brought this tribe far, but we may still want heirs who can walk more erect and think better than we, their primitive ancestors. Some will follow and seek, others track and find. To be the best that's within us, to get past ourselves, we need the unequal outcomes.

I got this line when I discovered a problem was much worse than it seemed at first. It was a huge challenge, something I didn't think was possible to do, but I had no choice but to try. A real "opportunity for growth" - not a bit fun but it left me better off. As Bradford says, "not higher ideals, but higher realities." "Excellence" demands not just thinking about in theory, but living out in practice.

However that was my experience with a big concrete problem/mess/negative situation, which I'm mentioning simply for perspective about the line. You trying to adopt a kitten isn't really any of that, as far as I can tell. Maybe in your case it's just a comment that you have really high standards, and living up to them might be a challenge in some way? Maybe just that transporting a kitten overseas is more complicated than adopting a nearby kitten. (However you say you've travelled internationally with cats before, so even that isn't new to you...) And of course if you're already living up to high standards of excellence, Yi could simply be praising you for it, as you thought. (I mean, in my case, I wasn't, and I needed to be kicked forcibly into a higher gear.)

Since that was the very first thing Yi said to you about this, it's the most direct and important. The others are important too, but subsequent readings can be conversational, rather than just Yi restating the original answer to the original question. That sometimes helps when a later answer seems to contradict an earlier one. (Imagine talking to another human about a decision - they don't usually keep repeating "yes, do that" or "no, don't" over and over. It becomes a discussion.)

One thing you could do is look back at your previous experiences with 17.5, to try getting a feel for how Yi's used it with you. Read as many authors as possible, for different perspectives (Bradford's was illuminating for me).
 

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I've only recently started to save all my readings. 17.5 is not one I've had a lot it seems to me. I recall one instance with 17.5 of something difficult and not too sensible I wanted to do. It wasn't easy but I was glad I did it. That seems to mesh with what you've written and quoted from Bradford's book. Yeah, 17.5 is not just saying "follow the party, have fun"!!

Maybe here the Yi is suggesting that I am so looking for the perfect cat for the dog that no furry creature could live up to my expectations or that I'd be missing some of the cat's less visible qualities focussing on my own checklist. That would make sense in a way... I can strive to make wise choices, but there is no way I can chart the outcome and "program" their interaction. Which is maybe Yi's way of responding that my asking it for the answer is an impossible task.
Oooh, it IS late... I am straying from interpreting in these musings!
Thanks Lisa, nite nite :)
 

Liselle

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To quote a common utterance around here: hmmmm...

...no furry creature could live up to my expectations...
..focussing on my own checklist...
...there is no way I can chart the outcome and "program" their interaction...
...my asking it for the answer is an impossible task.

All of that makes sense, and I can see how a line about excellence and standards could perhaps be on that subject...I just don't know enough about 17.5 to know whether Yi would use that line to mean those things. (Rather than guidance that you need high standards (what I think Bradford is saying), or praising you if you are already living up to them.)

On the other hand - I'd been vaguely wondering how & why a line encouraging high(er) standards of excellence is part of hexagram 17. 17 doesn't seem (to me) to be about those things. It's more about following the moment, or letting one thing follow another in a natural sort of way. (I think - I'm not terribly clear on 17.)

Well, okay, here's how Hilary explains it in WikiWing (are you in WikiWing?):

Excellence - a triumph with prisoners? [2] Something to show for your following. What you have truly achieved, the working-out of your path: these are things to hold onto, solid truths to give you confidence. (What you can be confident in: your achievements, what you are good at, what you're about, your purpose. The character includes 'drum': the things worth making a song and dance about.)

Maybe someone else will come along to help... :flirt:
 

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Hmmm... (redux)

Could it be that we are going a bit OTT here or that Yi might be commenting on my long involvement in animal rescue (even if, granted, the trip is a rather different manifestation of it)?

No, apparently I'm not on WikiWing...

Latest kitty news is that Cat B seems the most interested of the two in dogs, following one around, sniffing butt and paws in happy curiosity.
 

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Does OTT mean off-topic?

Whether Yi's answering your question directly or not - I hope so, but only Yi knows for sure, I suppose.
 

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:brickwall:
I'd written "who knows what will happen, the only thing we can count on is change." Understatement!

For us in Europe - airport vet services included! - a "USDA-accredited veterinarian" (as opposed to a run of the mill vet who just has a licence to practice) is an "official veterinarian". I have spent nearly a week checking that out. For Europe, hence, the paperwork says that if the vet who signs off is an official veterinarian, one does not need to have the paperwork then endorsed by the USDA. This became an issue because a) the turn around time to get that done (postal only) I won't have and b) I could not understand why the US was requiring the forms to be filled by a USDA-accredited vet **and** then endorsed by the USDA.
But I was not at ease with this grey zone and kept digging.
Equivalent words and expressions do not necessarily have the same meaning **in the practice/implementation of things.** I was finally put in touch with an expert in Europe who deals with this daily and knows the US system by heart. A USDA-accredited vet is an official vet --- but only for interstate issues (who knew that if you moved, say, from NY to Virginia, you had to have your pet's health certificate signed by a NY USDA-accredited vet before taking the pet to another state???).If the pet is to be exported, the paperwork does need to be USDA endorsed. He did say I stood a better than even chance that I'd get through on arrival without anyone noticing I had the second stamp missing, but still...
This is a huge obstacle. There is no guarantee I would be able to get an appointment at some far flung regional office to get the endorsement in person (need to call back in a month or two). The time is dangerously short to do it by post, even by FedEx.
Second surprise - and there the rescue group's vet messed up - is at least one cat (cat A, don't know about Cat b yet) had its rabies vaccine **before** getting microchipped, when the reverse is the rule, even domestically. Which means it would need another rabies shot at least 21 days before departure.

So with all this hooplah and surprises, I'm starting to wonder if the Yi didn't suggest that in two of my initial readings (if so, shoot, Yi should have been more explicit!):

What would be the effect of coming back with one of my friend's cats 53.3 to 20 -- Could 20 be understood as a commandment from Yi to really look at everything? I had wondered whether there was something in this I wasn't seeing and needed to see...It seems to fit (though who'd have thunk the USDA stamp would be a new issue?)

And in my reverse control question what if I don't bring back one of my friend's cats 16.2.4.6 to 4 -- 4 not knowing, ignoramus (I was certainly ignoramus about these details) and 16.4 being about implementation issues, with the transitional hex being 39 (uncertainty, obstacles) and resulting in 2, obedience (yes, I have to obey these rules, there is no way around them without taking a risk).

Of course, with hindsight, one can often manage to "retrofit" a reading to suit the new information, and that's my frustration sometimes with Yi. Now, I see the warnings there because of the new information, but I am far from clear whether that warning was there in the first place (uh, am I making sense??)

(P.S. if anyone ever needs THE definitive info and process to take a pet from the US to Europe, I'm the source. I've read everything and talked to all the powers that be and then some!!)
 
D

diamanda

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Your very first question shows all this:

The first time I asked Yi about this plan (what do you think about my going to the US and bringing back a kitten), I received 17.5 > 51
You're following a good plan, dear to your heart (17.5) but there's shock from outer sources ahead (51).

Your other questions were somewhat hypothetical and none of them was about legal practicalities.
There was a hint here however:

What would the effect be of coming back with one of my friend's cats? 53.3 > 20
I wrote "It will make you doubt you did the right thing, you'll be thinking of separation".
So 'separation' here probably means (in hindsight) that you'll be worried that the cat won't be allowed in.

I'd suggest asking about each cat separately again, if you'll manage to legally bring them back in time.
 

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Ah right, I'd forgotten about the very very first question! Thanks Diamanda and thanks for responding so quickly (ah, cat people :) )! Bang, there's is the 51. Bingo.

I'll wait and see if both cats have been vaccinated and chipped in the wrong order or if the problem is with only cat A. There are many conflicting opinions about vaccinations, esp rabies, and their risks. Which is why some people dont vaccinate their cats against rabies even if they are obliged to. The vet or the rescue people might not been keen on having to revaccinate so quickly -- and that variable is wholly out of my hands.
 

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M'yok... didn't wait, too curious....

Previously, the Yi seemed to indicate cat A as a better fit for this plan/for the dog than cat B..

Now.. hmm..

can i manage to bring cat a legally back in time? 1.3.5.6 to 54 - does not sound good at all.
can I manage to bring cat b legally back in time? 30.2.5 to 1- sounds much more positive but I've not had this combination before.

Yi seems to be changing its mind on the more suitable cat...

Furthering that, asked how would cat b treat my dog? 8UC
And since one should ask Yi to clarify when it answers that, I added can you be more specific on how cat b would seek union with my dog?

I busted out laughing. 56 UC. She'd travel to do that. Yup, I did ask HOW didn't I. :rofl:
 
D

diamanda

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Sorry I'll disagree with you that 30>1 sounds good in this case.

can I manage to bring cat b legally back in time? 30.2.5 > 1
30.2, with a lot of clarity (or after having spent money) there's a lot of tears (30.5).
And a completely new beginning would be needed (1), as in, forget about the existing situation.

can i manage to bring cat a legally back in time? 1.3.5.6 > 54
It's good that you worry so much about the details (1.3). Your flight sounds good (1.5) and it furthers you to see people of power over there. However, don't push things too much while you're there (1.6). I can't think of what "second best" (54) could mean in this case. Perhaps you wouldn't be able to do everything totally legally and totally 'in time' - but something which would be a close second best, whatever that could mean.
 

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(regardless of what ends up happening at that future time)

With the same images / words, I am not "feeling" the same story as you are Diamanda (and that's also what is interesting in this wonderful forum - the richness of views).

I'm "feeling" a story from that reading that goes like this:

A lot of light had to be shed on this situation, to get clarity on what work would need to be done (aside - the cost of USDA endorsement is $38, not exactly a fortune) for things to work (legal return) and in order to choose between the cats. The new info (a clarity squirt) suggests cat A may not even be able to be a candidate. All of this has been quite trying on me, I've "spent" lots of time (thank god for free VOIP international calls!) and energy to shed light in as many nooks and cranies as possible. I've ridden an emotional roller coaster of sorts, with a moment yesterday on the verge of tears that all hope seemed irremedially dashed (the 30.5 tears perhaps).

Ginnie, on this thread, speaks of a sense of crisis and possibly getting help if one let's it all hang out and shows one's distress. This happened yesterday with an adorable civil servant in another administration who managed to get through to the USDA department that was **not** taking calls so that I could have a change for a walk-in appointment to get the papers endorsed - a true cliff hanger moment. Bless her, she was touched by our story.

Wilhelm's comment on 30.5 states:
"Here the zenith of life has been reached. Were there no warning, one would at this point consume oneself like a flame.[Had I found out the details about the rules later, the plan would have collapsed irretrievably] Instead, understanding the vanity of all things [bureaucracy's self-fulling prophecy? and my ego to have things go MY way!], one may put aside both hope and fear, and sigh and lament[groan: OK, if I have to, I'll play it your way]: if one is intent on retaining his clarity of mind, good fortune will come from this grief [find solution to be able to play it their way]. For here we are dealing not with a passing mood, as in the nine in the third place, but with a real change of heart. [my compliance + cat preference]"

Williams comment on line 5 reads:
"I suppose the ultimate magic of life is the act of changing hard times, bad karma, or the tragedy of the human condition into something positive and hopeful. It is our greatest challenge. We water the earth with our tears and we help the future grow. This is a line of emotional climax. Things won't ever be the same after this. You will be stronger and the life-long work you have been pursuing will continue at new levels. You are special-you have feelings and logic, will-power and intuition. You touch people because life touches you. Have faith. "

Turning this series of bad news yesterday into something positive and hopeful...Indeed, things will never be the same after this and indeed a complete new beginning (resulting hex 1) would ensue.

Anywhoo, without wanting to split hairs or read what I may want to read, that's how I took the 30.2.5 to 1 -- lots of research, rock and roll emotions, struggle, and perhaps the opportunity for a completely new beginning might be possible.

I took it as hopeful, not as forget it, really bad idea. I have no clue who'se interpretation is more spot on. Only thing I know is that a reading and interpretation are done at time T1, and the actual playing out of all this is well down the pike.

And while at first I'd been drawn from the pix to cat B, so much was pointing to choosing cat a that, admittedly, I'd set my heart on her. At 30.5, it seems the choice goes out the window and all the bits collected yesterday suggested cat A may no longer even be able to be in the running anyway. I strived to retain clarity of mind and - change of heart - the option, once there, to see if cat b and I meshed well. No obligation, just lining up ducks to keep that option open ("good fortune from the grief"??).

If anyone would like to contribute to 30.5, that would be great. This reading and the exchange with Diamanda has been extremely useful for my learning process :)

:bows:
 

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Matters are progressing on the veterinary/logistics front. One thing to sort out on the return travel front - train schedules being updated, out of my hands, hurry up and wait.

Hadn't asked Yi anything since I last posted and my mind / emotions have been rather preoccupied bec of the elections. So this morning, I asked: what is the one thing I should look to to choose between cat a and cat b? 17.4.5.6 to 27.
Those are implementation and big perspective lines, yet in asking the question I was thinking of the various ways I assess a cat's temperment and character (hi or low octane, independent or shy, confident or skittish -- though both sound quite confident thanks to proper socialization -- stuff like that). The changing lines are all in the upper triagram and that surprised me.
Chris Lofting writes that in 17, "the spirit of the young can help regenerate the spirit of the old", which is the driving idea behind this adoption; "nourishment" (27) seems to speak to that as well. But if Yi is giving me clues with the changing lines to answer my question, I'm not getting a particularly clear message.
 

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My goodness you're going through wringers. :hug:

30.2.5 - at first I thought this meant, as you said, that after getting "clarity" on the situation (line 2) you'd have to sadly give up on it (line 5). And maybe that is what it means; it's not finished yet.

But then you mentioned the USDA employee who went above and beyond to help, and now I think 30.5 might have been referring to her. I sometimes think of 30.5 as the "empathy line," and she did show empathy towards you. She really listened and tried.

(A key reading of mine with 30.5 was when I was feeding birds on my balcony, but after a while had to stop for reasons such as they were making an unholy mess on the ground floor neighbor's patio by dropping seed, and the fact that there had gotten to be too many dear birds and they were emptying the feeders at an unsustainable pace. I felt sad for all concerned - me, my cats who enjoyed watching them, the birds who lost a source of food. I think Yi was saying it's okay, even good, to be sad at times like this; maybe this is what empathy looks like.)

(Side notes: 53 can mean bureaucratic processes, and you're certainly having those. Also, this business of requirements for moving cats from one state to another - is either new-ish, or maybe applies only if you're flying? I mean, I've moved cats across state lines more than once, via car, and knew nothing about any of that. How would anyone know if you put your cat in the car and drove them somewhere? Well okay, I suppose if the police stopped you on the highway for some other reason & then asked to see the health certificate...I'm glad I know that if I ever move again...)

17.4.5.6 > 27
Following's Nourishment

I think this reading is saying don't worry about this part yet.

17.4
'Following makes a catch.
Constancy, pitfall.
With truth and confidence, holding to the path with clarity,
How can this be wrong?


You're trying to "catch" something (pin down a decision on which cat) when you're still on a path. Constancy (to "catching," to making this decision) - pitfall. "Holding to the path" with clarity, truth, and confidence - how can that be wrong,

17.5
'True and confident in excellence.
Good fortune.'


Repeated from your first reading, which is almost certainly significant, although I don't know how.

17.6
'Seized and bound to it,
And so joining and connected to it,
The king makes offering on the Western mountain.'


I got this line, by itself, when asking which of several messes to tackle first in a major cleaning endeavor. I ended up deciding the line meant it didn't really matter (relating hexagram 25) or, slightly differently, that it didn't have to be a "Big Decision-Making Process" - I should just pick something, start somewhere/anywhere, and "join/connect" from that point. What I did in practice was I looked around at the various messes, saw one thing in one of them that I knew for sure how to handle (an easy decision in an overwhelming task), and did that. That one thing led to another one thing, momentum developed, and I got most of it done.

Some phrases I associated with 17.6 through this experience: "bloom where you're planted," "find the end of a string and pull on it".

In your case of deciding between kittens - maybe it means some factor will make this decision more-or-less for you, or make it obvious? Or that it's (still) too soon to worry about this part of it.

Hilary talks about 27 as a whole "ecosystem" of nourishment. The concept isn't 100% clear to me, but I think she means everything that goes into nourishing oneself, not just the one simple act of putting the fork in your mouth. In this case maybe it means there's a lot that will go into this decision, or maybe that Yi can't give you simple, one-factor advice, because it's not just one thing?
 
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Liselle

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Yi seems to be changing its mind on the more suitable cat...

Furthering that, asked how would cat b treat my dog? 8UC
And since one should ask Yi to clarify when it answers that, I added can you be more specific on how cat b would seek union with my dog?

I busted out laughing. 56 UC. She'd travel to do that. Yup, I did ask HOW didn't I. :rofl:

I have a hard time figuring out what exactly unchanging readings are saying. 8uc could mean straightforward "bonding," or that cat B would attempt to bond with your dog but your dog won't reciprocate. It doesn't necessarily mean you should ask another question, though. Here's Hilary's translation of the oracle:

'Seeking union, good fortune.
At the origin of oracle consultation,
From the source, ever-flowing constancy.

No mistake.
Not at rest, coming on all sides.
For the latecomer, pitfall.'


And here's what she says in WikiWing about the underlined part:

Retracing the oracle consultation to its source doesn't necessarily mean consulting again. Often the most useful way to respond is to go back to why you asked the question, and ask why that's important. Or go back to any readings you did before this one. Where are you coming from on this? Get back to the source, and flow from there. Then you're authentic, avoid mistakes, and flow strongly into the right connections and choices.

That could easily apply here, too, since you'd asked a number of previous questions, in which case it might have nothing to do with bonding.

56uc as a way of explaining 8uc...it could mean the cat travelling, as you said (and which I also think is funny), or it could be a message to you that you should keep moving (perhaps instead of asking more questions)...or other things...what 56uc means might depend on what 8uc meant... :eek:uch:
 

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Hi Lisa,
Thank you for coming back to visit this thread and chime in. I have a nutty day or two and need/want to re-read you when I can take my time and "put a think on it". I'll be back :)
 

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17.4.5.6 > 27
Following's Nourishment

I think this reading is saying don't worry about this part yet.

17.4
'Following makes a catch.
Constancy, pitfall.
With truth and confidence, holding to the path with clarity,
How can this be wrong?


You're trying to "catch" something (pin down a decision on which cat) when you're still on a path. Constancy (to "catching," to making this decision) - pitfall. "Holding to the path" with clarity, truth, and confidence - how can that be wrong,

17.5
'True and confident in excellence.
Good fortune.'


Repeated from your first reading, which is almost certainly significant, although I don't know how.

17.6
'Seized and bound to it,
And so joining and connected to it,
The king makes offering on the Western mountain.'


In your case of deciding between kittens - maybe it means some factor will make this decision more-or-less for you, or make it obvious? Or that it's (still) too soon to worry about this part of it.

Hilary talks about 27 as a whole "ecosystem" of nourishment. The concept isn't 100% clear to me, but I think she means everything that goes into nourishing oneself, not just the one simple act of putting the fork in your mouth. In this case maybe it means there's a lot that will go into this decision, or maybe that Yi can't give you simple, one-factor advice, because it's not just one thing?

Well, of course, Yi (and simple logic) suggests that the choice cannot be made yet. And I wasn't expecting to be, which is why I asked Yi what was the most important thing to look at when I'd meet the cats and have to choose. Argh, would Yi have punted, if indeed the answer lies in 27 and its ecosystem, not in the changing lines?
Again, as I learn, the various key things I have learned on this site conflict. For example:
- when 3 lines changes, focus on the second changing line
- the resulting hex is not the result, it's rather the background context, not future divination
- fan yao's explain the changing lines further v. fan yao's is what the lines are not.

I know this has been a long thread and am grateful for others' patience and responses. Perhaps because it is long and has so many readings, it is a great learning experience for me, even if, at the present moment, applying the learnings properly is rather challenging; it's not an exact science :) and individuals' reading styles and guidelines differ. Perhaps the answer there is to work on what reading "rules" seem to work for me over time and build from there?
 

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17.4.5.6 > 27
Following's Nourishment

I think this reading is saying don't worry about this part yet.

17.4
'Following makes a catch.
Constancy, pitfall.
With truth and confidence, holding to the path with clarity,
How can this be wrong?


You're trying to "catch" something (pin down a decision on which cat) when you're still on a path. Constancy (to "catching," to making this decision) - pitfall. "Holding to the path" with clarity, truth, and confidence - how can that be wrong,

17.5
'True and confident in excellence.
Good fortune.'


Repeated from your first reading, which is almost certainly significant, although I don't know how.

17.6
'Seized and bound to it,
And so joining and connected to it,
The king makes offering on the Western mountain.'


In your case of deciding between kittens - maybe it means some factor will make this decision more-or-less for you, or make it obvious? Or that it's (still) too soon to worry about this part of it.

Hilary talks about 27 as a whole "ecosystem" of nourishment. The concept isn't 100% clear to me, but I think she means everything that goes into nourishing oneself, not just the one simple act of putting the fork in your mouth. In this case maybe it means there's a lot that will go into this decision, or maybe that Yi can't give you simple, one-factor advice, because it's not just one thing?

Well, of course, Yi (and simple logic) suggests that the choice cannot be made yet. And I wasn't expecting to be, which is why I asked Yi what was the most important thing to look at when I'd meet the cats and have to choose. Argh, would Yi have punted, if indeed the answer lies in 27 and its ecosystem, not in the changing lines?
Again, as I learn, the various key things I have learned on this site conflict. For example:
- when 3 lines changes, focus on the second changing line
- the resulting hex is not the result, it's rather the background context, not future divination
- fan yao's explain the changing lines further v. fan yao's is what the lines are not.

I know this has been a long thread and am grateful for others' patience and responses. Perhaps because it is long and has so many readings, it is a great learning experience for me, even if, at the present moment, applying the learnings properly is rather challenging; it's not an exact science :) and individuals' reading styles and guidelines differ. Perhaps the answer there is to work on what reading "rules" seem to work for me over time and build from there?
 

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