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How you interpret when you have only 1 changing line?

S

springflower

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I have read that when you have an answer with only 1 changing line you have to check the line of the last hex. I don't remember for sure if this line is going to show you what will happer or what is the opposite of the answer.

For instance:
I asked: Is he going to visit me?
30.5>13
30.5 "Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting. Good fortune." shows pain but good fortune in the end.
13 "It is advantageous to cross the great river (or sea). [To make any kind of journey.] The Superior Man will benefit if he does not slacken his righteous persistence." shows journey.. so yes...

But let's check the line 13.5: " Men bound in fellowship first weep and lament, but afterward they laugh. After great struggles they succeed in meeting"

It's clear that they will succeed in meeting. But is this what is going to happen? or the opposite is going to happen?

I remember a thread I read about the same answer. Someone had a meeting with his employer and finally his contract was continued. So 13.5 could be the answer of the question they finally "succeed in meeting"?
 
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bradford

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I thought that was the situation that nobody ever had to ask about.

But what you are doing should ONLY be used for clues to the meaning of the
original changing line (30.5), and NOT be considered to be part of the auspice.
I think this is because the authors used this exercise when coming up with
words and images. And it's only useful some of the time. In this case, however,
it is useful. Both lines reinforce the idea of entering a situation with unhappy
tears that are transformed by a new understanding or epiphany midway.

That method of interpretation is called Fan Yao or reverse line. It's a new term
that I came up with in my own work. Several people have now sort of run away
with the idea and use it as part of the reading, which i try to publicly disagree
with whenever I can
 
S

springflower

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But what you are doing should ONLY be used for clues to the meaning of the
original changing line (30.5)

It's a big thing when a reverse line give you some clues even only for the changing line. I use this method when I have 1 changing line and it seems to work.

Several people have now sort of run away
with the idea and use it as part of the reading, which i try to publicly disagree
with whenever I can

I am sorry but I don't understand. If the reverse line gives you clues about the changing line, why you can't use it as part of the reading?
 

steve

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Not all of the times the Fan Yao will relate, so this is not to take you down an incorrect path, its probably best to just learn the lines and the transitional hex's first so it doesn\t confuse you.
If the line does not relate then its of no use, I think its mainly for extra information if you don't understand or are looking for things that may relate to the reading. but there is plenty of info you can get without using this line

You are doing well with the lines so far so continue learning

Best wishes
Steve
 

Trojina

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The transitional hexes ? I think that's the last thing a newbie needs isn't it Steve ? :eek: I never use transitional hexes. Unless by 'transitional hexes' you really mean the second hexagram, the relating hexagram ? The transitional hexagrams are pretty complex, I don't know how they work but Ashteroid uses them and he learned them off Brad I think. He has a link at the bottom of his posts. But anyway that's a whole other thing or other meaning for the term 'transitional' as applied to hexagrams, a different thing from the second/relating hexagram. The potential problem with these methods is it can sometimes lead people to avoid the cast they actually got altogether whilst focusing on some more remote pattern in the reading.
 

steve

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Yes sorry , i just meant the two basic hex's and the lines, yes the transitional hex's are yes i picked that up from ashteroid, its cool , they make sense to me tells a story. Sorry so what are the basic hexagrams called?
( i might have transitional hex;s on the brain i tried it for the first time last night was amazing)


Steve
 

Trojina

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Well I call them the primary hexagram and relating hexagram but different people call them different things.
 
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springflower

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I spend a lot of time reading about IC and so why I have so many questions. I am not so good in interpretation but I study a lot the theories.
Recently, I noted that reverse line does give a clue.
 

gene

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I have read that when you have an answer with only 1 changing line you have to check the line of the last hex. I don't remember for sure if this line is going to show you what will happer or what is the opposite of the answer.

For instance:
I asked: Is he going to visit me?
30.5>13
30.5 "Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting. Good fortune." shows pain but good fortune in the end.
13 "It is advantageous to cross the great river (or sea). [To make any kind of journey.] The Superior Man will benefit if he does not slacken his righteous persistence." shows journey.. so yes...

But let's check the line 13.5: " Men bound in fellowship first weep and lament, but afterward they laugh. After great struggles they succeed in meeting"

It's clear that they will succeed in meeting. But is this what is going to happen? or the opposite is going to happen?

I remember a thread I read about the same answer. Someone had a meeting with his employer and finally his contract was continued. So 13.5 could be the answer of the question they finally "succeed in meeting"?


Springflower

I one of Wilhelm's books he talks about checking the corresponding line of the second hexagram. He did not do it though, necessarily for an actual reading, but to get a better understanding of the philosophy and power of the I Ching. I find that often when one line changes the corresponding line in the corresponding hexagram has in some way an opposite meaning. It is best to look at the changing line. That is the main answer when one line is changing. Sometimes that contrary meaning will give you more insight on the meaning of the changing line. When one line changes it is usually more of a simple and straightforward answer. Multiple lines get really tricky. Beyond that, I tend to agree with Bradford.

Here the changing line shows a sad situation that turns out to be actually good for you. The corresponding line shows a similar theme, but in the corresponding line, there is actually a reconciliation. However, the changing line is more likely the complete answer.
 

gene

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Springflower

I one of Wilhelm's books he talks about checking the corresponding line of the second hexagram. He did not do it though, necessarily for an actual reading, but to get a better understanding of the philosophy and power of the I Ching. I find that often when one line changes the corresponding line in the corresponding hexagram has in some way an opposite meaning. It is best to look at the changing line. That is the main answer when one line is changing. Sometimes that contrary meaning will give you more insight on the meaning of the changing line. When one line changes it is usually more of a simple and straightforward answer. Multiple lines get really tricky. Beyond that, I tend to agree with Bradford.

Here the changing line shows a sad situation that turns out to be actually good for you. The corresponding line shows a similar theme, but in the corresponding line, there is actually a reconciliation. However, the changing line is more likely the complete answer.

One more thing. Here the fifth line is changing, which is often the ruler, or governing line of the hexagram, and therefore has more affinity to the relationship of the hexagram as a whole. So here it is not surprising that there is such a similarity.
 
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springflower

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I find that often when one line changes the corresponding line in the corresponding hexagram has in some way an opposite meaning.

I am really confused. I noted that the corresponding line is usually similar to the changing line. When does it have the opposite meaning?
 

Trojina

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I most often use it to highlight what the line I received isn't although that won't always appear to be the case. That is often to me the fan yao seems a reverse mirror image of the line received. Hilary I think says she finds the fan yao often seems to be the line people tend to identify with in readings, seems to describe their feelings. I've not found that so much.


I am really confused. I noted that the corresponding line is usually similar to the changing line. When does it have the opposite meaning?

Is 1.1 similar to 44.1 ? Is 38.3 similar to 14.3 ? Not really. I think you are confused because you imagine there is a solid 'rule' to go by in how the fan yao might reflect an answer. But there isn't, all there is to do with the fan yao is glance at it and see how it differs from or reflects the line you received. But it is not part of the actual answer you received. That is if I asked a question and received 14.3 then 14.3 is my answer. 38.3 might help me think about the meaning of 14.3 yet it is not my answer. (Hmm in that particular example I don't think considering 38.3 would help me very much)

Often now people are using the fan yao even in place of the answer, giving it equal importance in terms of advice taken from the answer. But this was never it's intended use, see Bradford's post above.
 
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springflower

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38.3 and 14.3 a good example. Are you sure the meaning is opposite? I think both shows that the ego destroys the good of the Work. Or not?
 
S

springflower

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Moreover the meaning of 1.1 and 44.1 both show that someone must stop the action. "cease and desist"
 

Trojina

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38.3 and 14.3 a good example. Are you sure the meaning is opposite? I think both shows that the ego destroys the good of the Work. Or not?

I didn't say anything as definite as they mean the opposite or the fan yao categorically means 'the opposite'. It's softer than that, like a reflection, a reverse image, that sometimes works as an aid and sometimes doesn't.

No, I don't think 1.1 shows 'the ego destroys the good of the Work', it simply says 'submerged dragon' or similar. Remember anytime you hear someone holding forth about the 'ego' in Yi it is a commentary, an interpretation of what the I Ching says, not the words of the I Ching. 44.1 may or may not show destructive aspects of ego at times depending on the context.

Moreover the meaning of 1.1 and 44.1 both show that someone must stop the action. "cease and desist"

You could say that I guess although of course 1.1 and 44.1 are very different answers. 1.1 is more like 'not ready' so if you had 44.1 that line would be your answer.

I see this thread was moved from Shared readings yet I think you particularly want to know about this because of your own reading of 30.5 ?
 
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springflower

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Dear Trojina,

As you understand I am trying to learn IC. So I have a lot of questions.

My answer 30.5/13 was only a way to express my query. Anyway, I am sure that 13.5 helps me to give a clue to line 30.5. Because both have the same meaning.

No, I don't think 1.1 shows 'the ego destroys the good of the Work', it simply says 'submerged dragon' or similar.
The meaning of 1.1 is stop the action like 44.1

An other example. It doesn't mind the question.
Let's see 26.5>9

26.5 describes a boar which is castrated. This means that somebody repress the advance of evil and this brings good fortune. And finally 9.. No raining so restraint of the evil for sure.
Let's take a look to line 9.5:
"Wilhelm/Baynes: If you are sincere and loyally attached, you are rich in your neighbor."

Has it got any relation with line 26.5? They really seem different! But... line 26.5 shows a boar, a boar seems to me a very powerful and dangerous animal like a very selfish man who cares only for himself and how to prove his manhood to women and doesn't care for anything else. No feelings at all!

And what about 9.5? A very different line which shows sharing with a companion. In other words "a gathering of energy to address a worthy task" or "Partners reinforce each other through loyalty. The man uses both his own resources and those of his neighbors to further their common cause."

As we can see there are 2 absolutely opposite lines! selfishness and sharing of resources.. So here I think yes! The meaning of 9.5 is opposite to 26.5...
But finally in line 26.5 someone manages to control the bad consequences and the force is force is altered before it can cause harm. So maybe 9.5 is the ending of 26.5?
On the other hand, let's say that line 9.5 is the opposite meaning of 26.5.. No sharing.. Someone who is dangerous and don't care about others... but finally we end up to restrain his evil..and good fortune.. Eventually, 9.5 doesn't seem so opposite.. I insist on believing that gives the clue..

What do you think? Any other example?
 

bradford

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This was the first thing written on the Fan Yao dimension, from my Vol. 2, p.13.
It lists some of the clearest examples of the more meaningful line pairs. Not all
of the pairs have a clear connection, and may not have been used by the authors at all.
The underlined ones are footnotes in my Vol, 1 translation that describe the relationship.


Zhi Gua is the second most overlooked of the original Yao Ci dimensions. The most
overlooked is that two Yao Ci form a resonant pair when they have a reciprocal Zhi Gua
relationship, that is, they meet on a path while moving in opposite directions, with each one
coming from the other’s destination. This dimension is so neglected that I have had to coin
a term for it: Fan Yao (Reverse Line, or Line-Coming-Back) Pairs. These pairs will often
share vocabulary elements, cross-references, subjects, or grammatical tone, voice and mood.
As with Zhi Gua above, here are some of the clearest examples, offered as an exercise, with
the locations of explanatory footnotes underlined:
01.6, 43.6; 02.3, 15.3; 03.3, 63.3; 05.3, 60.3; 05.4, 43.4; 06.4, 59.4; 07.5, 29.5; 09.2, 37.2;
10.2, 25.2; 10.5, 38.5; 11.2, 36.2; 12.3, 33.3; 12.5, 35.5; 13.3, 25.3;13.5, 30.5; 14.4, 26.4;
15.1, 36.1; 17.2, 58.2; 18.1, 26.1; 18.4, 50.4; 9.4, 54.4; 20.2, 59.2; 21.6, 51.6; 22.1, 52.1;
22.3, 27.3; 23.4, 35.4; 24.3, 36.3; 25.4, 42.4; 27.2, 41.2; 28.1, 43.1; 28.5, 32.5; 29.6, 59.6;
30.1, 56.1; 31.4, 39.4; 32.1, 34.1; 32.3, 40.3; 34.3, 54.3; 35.2, 64.2; 36.4, 55.4; 37.1, 53.1;
37.3, 42.3; 38.6, 54.6; 40.1, 54.1; 40.5, 47.5; 43.2, 49.2; 44.4, 57.4; 49.5, 55.5; 54.5, 58.5;
56.6, 62.6.
 

gene

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38.3 and 14.3 a good example. Are you sure the meaning is opposite? I think both shows that the ego destroys the good of the Work. Or not?

Springflower

A couple things here. First, I said, opposite in some way. It doesn't mean everything in that line is opposite. Line three says, "not a good beginning but a good end." 14 line three says "A petty man cannot do this." What can he not do? Well, one very likely possibility is that he can't have a good ending. The meaning of the lines overall is not opposite, but there is form of opposition in there. If you look for it. And here is what I would like everyone to understand. We cannot take the messages only literally. A lot of times there is a literal meaning, but we have to get past one dimensional thinking to really understand the I Ching. Spiritual things are spiritually understood. The intellect is of no use, only the heart is, so we have to feel it. Often I see new people here become very confused because they can only see things literally, or in black and white. In the western world we have a specific language. Words mean this and not that. That is not true in the East. Words have many meanings. And it is only by means of the heart that we can pick up on the real meaning.
 

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