I can't believe what my teacher said in class!

[Grandma]

In my english class we've been doing readings about male female roles. We read something from the 70's about a woman saying she'd like a wife and listing all the things she does for her husband. I said something like now it's even worse because women are working and taking care of the home. (not all women are so burdened or are not being helped by their spouses, of course)
she said that something along the lines of women wanted to go to school and wanted jobs they have to take respoonsibility for the way things have turned out for them. (when she said wanted to go to school , I said should be able to, tho quietly) I know I'm not describing this very well and am taking too long but anyway, I was very upset by this comment. I understand spiritually of course we are responsible and maybe even we create our own reality but this seemed like a very offensive statement to make, especially as an authority figure in front of young women ( I am 47, btw)
Plus I felt it just gives guys who are not sensitive to women permission to keep doing what they've been doing.
My question is how should I phrase my question to the ic? I want to talk to the teacher about this, but I'm not so well spoken and I don't want to have her run "rings around me logically" (Monty Python) Help, I was reading another posting from december and someone said let this place be your women's forum (w/in the ic context)so I took that as a sign to seek help about this matter here. I know this is slightly rambling, I hope it's ok to post this here.

 

[bradford_h]

It's OK. We guys are sorta used to women just rambling on and on like that.

 

[bruce]

What about: What is the most productive way to confront my teacher on this matter? And I'd remain open, based on the reading, to not confront her at all.

Fwiw, in my notes for 38 it says: Never let anyone rob you of your own decent opinion. Neither be a thief. Agreement is not always necessary.

 

[Grandma]

That's funny Brad.
Bruce, I'll try that question.
I know, of course, I don't have to agree with everyone (I'm a liberal, I'm very use to people having different opinions) Maybe I'm overreacting. But the other thing if you do the test for a predjudiced statement, which is to plug another groups name in there, then how does it sound.

 

[micheline]

susan,
I think it sounds like a really good jumping off point for discussion in the class. I take it that no one spoke out when she said that, and I am not surprised. I teach at the college level, and I am amzed at how little the younger students have to say about so many things....the students in their 40's are the interesting ones, because they have opinions and experience behind them.

Maybe she was deliberately trying to provoke discussion?

Personally I dont find her comments offensive, I would just be curious as to where is coming from!?

I am a sexist. I think men and women are very different and want different things. and viva la difference. I also never bought into women's lib because I always felt women were INHERENTLY powerful and beautiful and the more emotionally resilient sex. It never occured to me to feel like I couldnt have what I wanted, or do what I wanted to do, just because I was a woman. BUt I know that it is true that we are only just coming out of the paradigm of patriarchal power and authority.

I thik it is important not to see men as the bad guys. I mean a lot of men also were shortchanged back in those years, when women traditionally stayed home and a man went out to bring in the bacon. The working world is rough and tough and spirit-crushing....it lacks the feminine qualities..and men suffered because of that emphasis on having to be strong and tough.

I feel the whole system is undergoing change and it will be gradual. We need more of the feminine essence in the workplace...we need to value rest and personhood and intimacy and emotion in the workplace, and maybe it is women who can bring these qualities. Trouble is a lot of women tried to become pseudo-men...they went to the extreme.

we need strong women role models who can represent not just a woman's RIGHT to work, but a woman's right to be a WOMAN and express herself in whatever way she feels inclined. I was a stay at home mom for three years and felt bored and unhappy with that. On the other hand, I find the workplace in general extremely distressing because of its treadmill-like motion and de-emphasis on the inner values.

Men too dont need to be superheroes or macho idiots...but warriors with heart and sensitivity. It was polarized one way and then it seemed to polarize the other way. NOw the task is to find a middle ground.
I wouldnt approach your professor alone...i would start a class discussion about that remark...see what comes up. it could be so interesting!

 

[Grandma]

Thank you Micheline for responding. The part that was offensive to me was saying women wanted to go to school and work (be maybe she said be able to do these things) because she was standing right behind me when she said it and I immediately became alarmed and said should be able to.
I believe that gender roles hurts both genders. I don't believe men are the bad guys, but like white people they do benefit from the discrimination the other side faces (on the surface, at any rate)
I think I would need her to clarify her thoughts, but I still think they are kind of crappy.
However, maybe I'm wrong and it's been really nice to talk to you all about this.
I asked the question Bruce suggested
What is the most productive way to confront Prof. about what she said in class?
I got 7.1>19

 

[micheline]

Susan, That's a great responsefrom the Yi! I am guessing if you carefully gather your thoughts together and approach her with your points, the response will be one that initiates a good flow of exchange. good luck with it!

Still think involving the whole class would be so wonderful... a person from your vantage point has a lot to offer the younger students with your input. And I think the prof would love it if you ignited a good discussion in a class like that. (one would hope anyway!)

 

[Grandma]

Micheline, well I have class on Wed. and I don't see her to talk till after class so probably it will be brought up in class. But what is the ic suggesting in this case? To go to her w/ well prepared and w/ an open mind (that was my plan) But what does 19 signify? The good flow of exchange?
After she said it she said we'll discuss this more later.
anyway I shouldn't e mail her, I sd wait till class?
Which is my inclination at this point since having objective people hear my point has helped.

 

[hitchhiker]

Susan,

Your teacher's view is fairly common -- i.e., that if women want it "all" they can't complain. I teach at university and every year similar comments come up from my students, both male and female. Feminism becomes the bad word for such apparently selfish women. Your instincts are correct.

What is being assumed here by your teacher is that the social system and institutional structures which place men and women in their prescribed roles are set and given, and that if we choose to "break" them, it's our own fault. My father suffered from years of guilt of having to stay home while my mother went out to work. The damage works both ways. It's the system and the ways of thinking about the system that need to change, not individuals changing to fit the system. The way I see it, feminism is about choice, and not having to be punished for it. Of course not all feminists subscribe to this, that's just my view.

Perhaps you could ask her (nicely!) what lies behind her view and see if you can get to the inherent assumptions behind her thinking. Anyway, my two cents. Good luck.

Best,
hh

 

[bruce]

"women wanted to go to school and wanted jobs they have to take responsibility for the way things have turned out for them."

This is true for anyone or any group. Wilhelm's hex. 5 says" "It's only when we have the courage to face things exactly as they are, without any sort of self- deception or illusion, that a light will develop out of events, by which the path to success may be recognized." I would add "victimization" to that list of things to be overcome. The teacher's comment wasn't to "take the blame", but to "take the responsibility". From the responsible position there appear choices. From the victim position there appears only blame, and that almost inevitably results in reverse discrimination in one form or other.

I watched the NAACP Image Awards last night. An organization which started out to equalize extremes and create equality among races have themselves become a racist group, who STILL blame the evil white folk for all their woes. The program was laced with racist comments and so-called humor aimed at the white race. The same can be said for extreme feminism or any sort of extremism which creates a false sense of entitlement.

Sounds to me as though this teacher was offering something worth considering: taking personal responsibility and making the best choices available to us. It sure beats whining and man hating.

 

[bruce]

Btw, 7 has to do with taking responsibility. I especially like LiSe's quote: "have the guts to act worthy of yourself."

 

[Grandma]

Thanks for writing back everyone, I'll write again later but I do just want to say that women having equal rights is not man hating. Talking about behaviors in others such as our spouses or bosses or whomever when they are abusive or discrimanatory isn't necessarily whining. Standing up for your rights and noticing if you are being discriminated against or treated with a bias is a first step in overcoming the problem. It's not good to be the oppressed or the oppressor. Are they equally responsible? In one sense, yes. But in every sense?
So I could interpret 7 as saying take responsibility for how I feel about her statements and make my point of view known, which I think I just layed out here.
anyone have any other thoughts about the ic reading? Thanks everyone for your help.
Thanks hichhiker for your comments. I see the idea of feminism or the discarding of gender roles as avery frightening for some people. Why is it considered whining if you say the president of harvard only gave 4 women tenure out of 32 times he gave tenure since he has been president? Why is it whining to say it's alarming for a person in that field to believe that females are inherently
less capable than men in math and science?
I guess the question is when do men believe women are whining and when do they beleive they have alegitimate gripe, or are all legitimate gripes whining?

 

[micheline]

Gee, Bruce, I dont think susan or anyone who would question that teacher's remarks is being a "victim" or talking like one. the point is, instead, that the teacher seemed to be missing the point:

the structure needed changing way back when and it needs changing now.......for the benefit of BOTH men and women.
the status quo is perhaps not desirable now, but nor was it then.

It is not a question of "well, you wanted to work, now deal with it."

 

[Grandma]

Or perhaps the structure needed changing then and it still needs more change now for the benefit of both.
"well, you wanted to work, now deal with it."
That's seems like a very good summation of what she was implying.
But what are you saying the satus quo is now?
You all have said some really great stuff and I'm going to keep rereeading your comments cause I keep getting more out of them each time.

 

[bruce]

Hi Micheline,

Honestly? It was hard to understand clearly Susan's scenario and question. It did seem that Susan's hackles spurred up nicely though. It?s reasonable to believe that was the teacher's intent. I tend to agree with your interpretation of 7.1 - 19, except I think I'd be more strict in the interpretation, since both 7 and line 1 deals firmly with discipline. And I believe that discipline is to first be directed toward ones self. That means assuming responsibility, which if I understood Susan's first post, that is where the tension arose between Susan and her teacher.

Assuming responsibility was my only point. That means not pointing at others, but pointing at yourself. So, yes, to me it is exactly like "well, you wanted to (fill in the blank), now deal with it."

 

[Grandma]

It really got my goat for sure as you can see by the excalmation point for the title of the thread. I was aware of that tho and that's why I've been asking others for their opinion.
If it was the teacher's intent to provoke debate it was not an appropriate comment. She said women wanted (these things) now take responsibility. I think she would still stimulate debate by saying women should have equal rights in education and the workplace but they should take responsibility for (whatever).I still disagree with her.
Let's say this, blacks wanted an end to segregation laws from the 60's and they are still complaining about racism in the 00's they should take responsibility.
Who would even say that and it would be an unbeleivable comment for a teacher to make in a classroom. What would it even mean?
I know I don't tell a story very well so if you, Bruce had trouble understanding, you are not the first. I was also upset which doesn't help. Good thing I'm taking an english class.
Anyway are you saying the reading means take responsibility for my anger and to see it from her point of view and change my viewpoint? She said something I take issue with so I should point to myself? I am interested in what ic is saying.

 

[bruce]

Oh, I can't say what you should do, Susan. I don't know cuz I'm not you. Taking responsibility is always a good place to operate from (army base), but however you decide to issue and execute commands is up to you.

I admire your openness in all this, btw.

 

[bruce]

On another matter, it seems many teachers are using their position to further their own agendas rather than sticking to the subject they?re paid to teach.

 

[micheline]

If we just go by the IC's advice, the message is simply to gather your thoughts, with discipline relating to being careful and clear, perhaps not emotional, but firm and to the point.

7.1 is actually about starting off on your quest in the right way. IE, knowing the points you want to make and being clear about how to present them.

I DONT think the IC is making a value judgement about the issue itself or about your feelings. In other words, the responsibility you need to assume is in presenting your viewpoint and/or your issue with her statement. (I don't feel the IC is saying that you need to take responsibility for women wanting to work...or for what that has meant to them.)

Bringing up civil rights is interesting though. Was it wrong for blacks to insist upon civil rights? Obviously, no. BUt just because, for instance, the supreme court said that blacks could ride up front in the buses DID NOT mean that rascism was a moot issue. Rascism is alive and well, even though there has been progress.

And it would be silly for someone to say to a black person who experiences a more underhanded discrimination that "You wanted civil rights, now deal with the repercussions!" BUT, someone like Martin Luther King would say...."OKAY, you're still not happy with the status quo, but go about in the right way. Don't use violence or emotion, state your complaints in a disciplined, lawful way with clarity and intelligence." One of his famous quotes was to never allow anyone to make you stoop so low that you hate them. His aim was for blacks to win the friendship and cooperation of white people.

The interesting thing here is that the polarity ALSO swung to the far extreme. Rascism can be perpetuated in reverse if the white man is perceived as the ancient enemy,

I think the whole issue here is finding out what this teacher meant by her remark and then being willing to discuss it with her. She may well hold the opinion that women made their bed and now have to sleep in it. And you then can be the proponent of a different way to look at it. And perhaps you need to search your heart for your own clarity before you speak.

In my opinion, the status quo is NOT about male/female issues per se, but that both men and women need to look at the "workplace" in general as a construct which desperately needs change. Human beings are routinely de-humanized by the workplace as we know it.....and the "feminine" values, which all human beings need in order to be whole, need to be recognized and honored.

And a lot of the men on this board already recognize "feminine" values, it seems to me. Intuition, feeling, nurturance, respect for the inner life,receptivity.....all of the qualities which an I Ching diviner needs to have!

 

[micheline]

IF we pay teachers to simply maintian the status quo, then the educational system is worth nothing.

A true educator is one who encourages the student to explore the new terrain, think out of the box, create change

 

[bruce]

mm mm. One can be an excellent and creative teacher, and stay focused on subject they're teaching.

Racism is indeed alive, and both sides fuel the flame.

Again, I believe it's an error to point fingers to this side or that, or to get into the whole blame game. We each work with what we have to work with within the framework we're working with. In the case of humanitarian injustices, it is no different. One can choose the side their conscience dictates, and set out to change it. I think the I-Ching is a lot about how we go about doing that, and in no case have I found where either self pity or blaming others is offered as the noble way. But I?m open to correction.

 

[micheline]

but bruce...still dont get where you hear self-pity or blame coming from anyone on this thread?
sure you are not being a dawg with a bone?

 

[bruce]

ooh, I've been known to gnaw on a few of those.

But tell me, you don't see a lot of self-pity and blame going on regarding these things? Ya know - if only I was taller, whiter, smarter, nicer looking, younger, older, richer. If only I had the same breaks as others. It's not fair! You don't see these things?

 

[luz]

What if the teacher had said, referring to a depressed 'househusband':
"men wanted to stay home; they have to take respoonsibility for the way things have turned out for them"
Would that be denying their right to stay home?

I think in this day and time, the right of a woman to go to school and work is beyond contention. Nowadays, in fact, staying home is the odd choice for most women and, yes, those who choose to do it have to take reponsability for the fact that this reduces their income and that their chosen job is tedious, endless and thankless..

For women that work outside the home, whether they get help or not from their husbands is really dependant on both of them, and not on society.

Equal pay, equal opportunity, access to decent daycare for kids.. well, those are other completely different issues.

So I think that yes, gather your thoughts, give her the benefit of the doubt as to what she meant and maybe just approach her in a "that was a very interesting thing you said" kind of way. And that of course is what 7.1 meant!

 

[Grandma]

I do find the ic does deal alot with personal responsibility. It's like the old Chinese saying if you want to correct the state , you first must correct the family and if you want to correct the family you first must correct yourself.
I think the readings says gather my thoughts nad be organized or else even w/ strongest arguments you can go down in defeat. Don't talk to long or go to deep into it.
I guess one reason why it's so explosive is that we were referring about the issue of women taking care of the home and working and not being helped at home enuf , the person who is not helping is the husband. Someone very close, I mean society sets up the situation to flourish but it's being done to individuals by their spouses.
but also how is being aware of the (hypothetical) situation, that the wife isn't being treated fairly by her husband and stating that not taking personal responsibility? (the implied statement by the teacher) You know it's really a big concept, personal responsibility and if youare gonna apply it here youhave to apply it all cases of (abuse) (complaints) I think that's a point I'll make in class. (although it occurred to me could the reading just be about this forum? or maybe also about this forum?)
You guys are all great I'm gonna post my essay topics for homework and you guys can write them for me (kidding, kind of)
The 19 part of the answer confuses me, of course when the 8th month comes part.

 

[ewald]

In Wilhelm's translation 19.0 has:
<blockquote>When the eighth month comes,
There will be misfortune.</blockquote>That sounds a bit odd and ominous. A more direct translation of the original Chinese is:
<blockquote>Arriving in the eighth month has misfortune.</blockquote>I think this is referring to a prematurely born baby, meaning that an approach before the time is ripe would not work.

 

[Grandma]

Oh thanks, Ewald.
I've always sort of liked 19 till I got to that part.
So it means wait till she brings it up in class.

 

[ewald]

Susan - Perhaps till she does, if you feel that that is appropriate, but not necessarily. There's some history behind this, and you know what your standpoint is and a bit about what's hers, so it won't be coming out of the blue.

 

[Grandma]

OK, thanks

 

[Grandma]

we didn't talk about it, we didn't have class discussion last night, cause we're doing aresearch project. anyway good discussion here.
thanks