I Ching on life after death

[brdz]

The question: "What is the I Ching's view of life after death?"
Using the coin method and Wilhem's translation I got Hexigram #41 "Decrease" with 4 moving lines. This transformed #41 into Hexigram #32 "Duration". According to Zhu Xi's rules concerning 4 moving lines in a hexigram the ruling line is nine in the second place in the transformed hexigram (#32) Which reads "Remorse Disappears"
I interpret the answer this way.
Decrease is the dying process moving into the next phase which is Duration. A definition given in the commentaries for duration is "that which always is." So we continue to exist. Reading many near death experiences people say once they transitioned to the other side they are quite happy and do not want to return to their life here. This would of course be "remorse disappears" a happy state which agrees with the NDEs.
Now perhaps I am way over simplifying this for I have ignored all the judgments and images and commentaries because I could not see how they applied to my question. I am satisfied that I have gotten a simple and direct answer to my inquiry. However I would like to ask the forum:
Is it appropriate to take only what seems to apply?
Can we work with only the hexigram itself if we feel it is answering the question? How do others feel about this life after death question and the answer that I have received?

Thank you

 

[chingching]

at a glance its seem like a pragmatic answer, gone (41) forever(32).

 

[elias]

Why trouble the Tao with such adolescent speculation? There is only the present. Everything else is illusion.

 

[brdz]

chingching thank you for your reply. It is certainly another point of view and not one I had thought of.
Elias, Thank you for your reply as well.It's easy to say that life is an illusion but to live that philosophy is something else altogether. To me my life is quite real and my death inevitable. In the passed few years I've lost quite a few loved ones. That usually sets one thinking more deeply about these things. In Memories, Dreams, Reflections Carl Jung dedicates a whole chapter to life after death. I don't consider him an adolescent thinker. As for troubling the Tao, is that possible?

 

[pocossin]

What is the I Ching's view of life after death?
41.1.3.4.6 > 32

I didn't remember Zhu Xi's rules, but Steve Marshall gives them here:

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/basics.htm

4 change
go over to the second hexagram and take the lowermost of the two lines that have not changed from the first hexagram

The logic might be that when there is so much changing, the unchanging stands out. Such is death in that there is much change, but not everything changes. I'd take 41 as refinement to essence, and 32 as the residue that lasts.

 

[chingching]

of course 41 can be focussing and 32 can be, as in LiSe's page, how you steady yourself on your course, staying on course, so perhaps its saying that death is the refined dao. A whole life's path brought into singular focus.

I wonder though, because the text of yi, apart from its function as an oracle, is steeped in ancient Chinese culture then the text of the judgement lines and images are coming from a particular philosophical outlook. Each philosophy/religion/ideology has a view of death and some overlap. I think it would be richer to evolve ones own ideas about death... and then inevitably we all find out anyway.

I guess I would think a better question is how can I relate to death(for the purpose of personal growth and deeper understanding), in the here and now.

 

[sooo]

41 is a lessening of an individual whereby that energy is given to increase the whole. Wilhelm explains it thus:

What is below is decreased to the benefit of what is above.

I've asked this question many times, through the IC, considering other texts such as the Tibetan Book of the Dead, Jesus' written quotes, the Buddha's written quotes, contemporary thoughts, and most through my own meditation and contemplation. I've never sensed the Tao was the least bit troubled by my candid curiosity. I've come to view the experience mostly as the TBotD describes the Bardo, which in some ways is quite similar to the Bardo experienced while in this physical condition and plain, except there is less "me" (41) and more the eternal principle of perpetuation (32).

The lines are interesting, but rather than dissect them individually, let me say, I see a common idea in them all, and that common theme is conditionality. If each line is read and considered as conditions and their results, whether one chooses to call them karma or cause-and-effect, or just conditional, there would be an "it depends" contingency to the after physical death experience. I encourage you to consider each line with that in mind and see what you come up with.

32 is a self perpetuating circular motion of thunder and wind.

Duration is rather the self-contained and therefore self-renewing movement of an organized, firmly integrated whole, taking place in accordance with immutable laws and beginning anew at every ending. ~ Wilhelm 32

This can certainly lend itself to the idea of life/death as one continuous cycle of natural law, or reincarnation, from life in the spirit to life in the physical manifest realm.

Hope I didn't trouble the Tao too much with that response to your question.

 

[Trojina]

Why trouble the Tao with such adolescent speculation? There is only the present. Everything else is illusion.

thats a pretty bizarre statement Elias. Surely its an important question and seems to me to have been answered quite aptly and succinctly ie continuation (32) throughout loss (41)

Everyone would have a different answer to the same question...however universal the question it is still always a personal question and a personal answer to the person asking so to that extent I wouldn't be taking brdz answer as the truth/my truth for all time but the truth for him now.

But I'd say this was a real answer or at least if I had received this I'd feel answered.



PS I don't think the Tao can be troubled

 

[brdz]

Thank you all for considering my reading, taking time to look up the hexigrams and references and offering your interpretations. There is certainly food for thought here. I am looking forward to more replies if there are any. Just to clarify, I was not expecting the I Ching to pronounce the Truth on this subject. As chingching said and I agree "I think it would be richer to evolve ones own ideas about death". This is exactly what Carl Jung recommends. Trojan's comment that it is a personal question with a personal answer is how I see the I Ching working. It may be a way to investigate and communicate with your unconscious mind which I believe holds quite a bit of knowledge. The link sent by pocosin is the information I used for determining how to work with changing lines. Given that there are many different rules out there on this subject I assume the best thing to do is to pick the rule that you can relate to and go with it. Are there any thoughts from you all on this?

 

[elias]

PS I don't think the Tao can be troubled

Really? On more than a few occasions I've had the distinct impression that the Tao has had about enough of my nonsense. 4.4 comes to mind, and 60.3. Then there's 29 and the unknowable, discussed by Hilary a week or so back.

There are things that cannot be known, and that includes the future.

If there is an afterlife -- and the culture that developed the IC practiced ancestor worship -- those entities existing on the other side exist in this moment now.

Partisans of most every religious & philosophical tradition, including Jung, have speculated about death. Insofar as they bring comfort and resolution to the distressed, these have their value.

In the Tibetan approach to IC, time itself is an illusion. Once one overcomes the illusion of time, one may enter immortality.

Just some adolescent speculation...

 

[precision grace]

if I may..or may not...I've found one of the truths to be that everything exists always at all times..

 

[Trojina]

Really? On more than a few occasions I've had the distinct impression that the Tao has had about enough of my nonsense. 4.4 comes to mind, and 60.3. Then there's 29 and the unknowable, discussed by Hilary a week or so back.

There are things that cannot be known, and that includes the future.

If there is an afterlife -- and the culture that developed the IC practiced ancestor worship -- those entities existing on the other side exist in this moment now.

Partisans of most every religious & philosophical tradition, including Jung, have speculated about death. Insofar as they bring comfort and resolution to the distressed, these have their value.
In the Tibetan approach to IC, time itself is an illusion. Once one overcomes the illusion of time, one may enter immortality.

Just some adolescent speculation...

Yes but (re the bold) that wasn't the case here. I don't think its the question thats important but the intention behind the question. I find a 'small' question asked with sincerity is answered where a 'small' question thats asked for purposes of vanity or wanting to have the advantage over someone often gets short shrift as inthe examples you gave above. I got 56.1 re a small question yesterday and knew that to be the case...


The future can sometimes be known...have you not ever had premonitions...and if you haven't why assume no one else does !? Of course the Yi gives us glimpses of the future its one of its main functions. I do think on the whole we are best to trust these for ourselves rather than others we don't know...but your blanket statements above seem to come from a pretty boxed in set of assumptions

As for the 'speculation' sentence underlined....again this merely shows your own perspective. Many have experiences that go way beyond 'speculation' regarding life beyond our current lifes knowing and if you haven't does that mean you know the truth of the matter ? I don't think so.


The question of what happens after we die is something everyone with a mind will visit...even little children. I almost get the impression you are saying no one has any right to consider these things except sages and Jung

I get the impression your understandings are purely intellectual and non experiential...but thats your limitation. You feel the 'illusion of time'is 'overcome' and then one enters immortality...so you buy into a linear time sequence when you deny that anyone anywhere...anytime...sage or not, can, on occasion, transcend a linear time frame...which includes knowng something of the future


anyone can slip into future vision at any time...they don't even have to had read books about Taoism to get gleanings of the future from the Yi...

 

[chingching]

actually a bit off topic, but this is interesting:

I find a 'small' question asked with sincerity is answered

I was watching a film and was feeling distressed about what the characters were doing so I asked what their outcome would be, and I asked sincerely as I was deeply involved with the narrative (sad yes but it was gorge eliot so I can claim some kind of intellectual/emotional enrichment). And the answer I got was bang on the money.

Sometimes I ask a question on a matter I have never consulted yi for before at all, and I receive 4 or some derivative of it. I think how can I have asked too many questions???? this is the first one! But then I remember 4 is about teaching and learning, that ignorance is the expansion and that harvest requires determination and have reliable conduct. Just like all other hex's its rich in its meaning, not just one-sided go-to-jail-esque.

 

[sooo]

One thing is for sure: everyone gets an opportunity to find out, though there's the possibility they may not be conscious to any level of awareness of finding out. chuckle

I had my first dream of dying when I was 12. If I was a big believer in past lives, the elaborate details of the dream, including the exact details of my surroundings, the specific cause my death, even the thoughts I had before the moment of death, and then the experience of death, or I should say, during the duration of my death (my personal Bardo), would have great continuity to the foretelling of this current life I'm now living. Still, to say I know for certain based on that experience, including the historic religious systems built around such experiences, would only amount to a belief. The dream, otoh, may have been entirely symbolic expressions of the current life I was living, involving the twelve years of experiences and their subconscious impressions. For this reason, I don't have a great deal of faith in faith, and I certainly do not claim to know what can only be speculated.

As for the 'everything is illusion' postulation, let me retell my paraphrase of a story, posted elsewhere recently.

I like the story Joseph Campbell tells, of a student who goes happily into the world with the knowledge his guru has just given him: everything is God. The student is walking down the street and coming the other way is an adult elephant, complete with trainer, yelling at the student, "Get out of the way you fool!" The student thinks to himself, "I am God, the elephant is God. Shall God trample God?" Where upon the elephant picks the student up with his trunk and throws him a good distance, banging him up pretty good. The student goes back to his guru, very upset. The guru asks "what has happened to you? You are a mess!" So the student repeated the incident. The guru said, "well then, why didn't you listen to the driver of the elephant, who is also God?" So, there are those two sides of life on earth, and if we forget the mortal side, we set ourselves up for a big beating from the elephant.

It may be that the lad's experience was all an illusion, but that didn't make him any less black and blue.

 

[elias]

I encountered this elsewhere in my travels this morning, but it seems apropos:

Relax, renew yourselves, and allow yourselves to release any sense of judgment concerning what is going on. If you experience deaths, pain, or losses…….feel your emotions, express your pain, and then get up and go on. Remember what we said about death and about power. Remember also that everything and everyone you see around you is a reflection of some part of yourself! The more you allow yourself to look with personal eyes, at a humanity that is rapidly changing, the less will be your need to look with general eyes, waging warfare and heaping judgment upon those around you.
--David Gray

if I may..or may not...I've found one of the truths to be that everything exists always at all times..

Thank you, PG! An elegant expansion of the point I've been trying to make. If/when the illusion of linear, cause-effect time is overcome, everything exists in the present.

Of course the Yi gives us glimpses of the future its one of its main functions.

Paraphrasing Dickens: Is it the future as it MAY be, or the future as it MUST be? As mortals, we essentially live in the past, as our interpretation of the present is conditioned on past experiences. IC often shows us the present unbound by our ego-involvement -- the "small, sincere questions" you describe. Or IC indicates a future likely to emerge should we continue a present course of action. Is this really "the future" or just raw probability based long observation of the human condition?

 

[sooo]

While I was out walking I thought there is something I'd also like to clarify, something I said earlier: "I don't have a great deal of faith in faith." By that I mean in terms of absolute spiritual truths, such as a particular religious or metaphysical belief.

However, I do have a great deal of belief in belief as an enabling force, even so far as attracting and enabling miracles, which defy logical explanations.

I once wrote something called "The challenge to believe", which in short spoke to the question: how can you ignite the power of belief when you've reached the point of no longer believing in any particular absolute truth, such as a religious or spiritual dogma, or an absolute answer to the question of "what happens after we die?" My belief is so strong in this regard that I believe it can create an interim experience (again the Bardo meaning enters in) which accords with whatever you might expect the afterlife experience to be. Hence, a Christian experiences either the wrath of God or the grace of the savior, Jesus; a Buddhist experiences their perceived karma, and associated deities and Bodhisattva, and so forth. However, being interim and transitory experiences, they eventually dissolve, just as everything eventually dissolves. Possibly, even what follows that may be a result of what one believes or expects, in some form or another.