I Ching/ pregnancy and abortion

[cristal]

This is such a big question since its about if a fetus should live or die I wouldn't really want to say anything except its your choice.

The readings don't tell me much anyway maybe because I'd be very unwilling to advise you either way so can't see anything anyway

I mentioned this in a moderation thread where we are talking about 'small' questions and I linked to this since this is such a big question....no other reason

Your answer is a great answer, I was concern just looking at this question, because it regards as you say to death and life and even if I would consider myself the best reader, I would think this is a too serious matter and when somebody confronts such delicate situation in life, it is very susceptible to any suggestion given to her.

About the person that ask, I would tell to her, follow your heart and your needs, independently of the reading at least you are capable to interpret it yourself with your own heart.

 

[icastes]

well if not one line celebrates then why is he drinking wine in 64.6 ? yes its about self control following some time of a little intoxication at good fortune. There is generally good reason for that celebration...or if you prefer that little headiness at how well things are going

I don't really understand your definition of stagnation. Being in a time of transition where things aren't in their right places yet is not a stagnant time. Everything is moving so thats hardly stagnation is it

Drinking wine properly is what this line is about. Don't drink to excess. The problem of drinking wine and its connection to good sense and poise is a common theme in ancient thought. Consider Plato's Laws, for example.

 

[arabella]

Drinking wine properly is what this line is about. Don't drink to excess. The problem of drinking wine and its connection to good sense and poise is a common theme in ancient thought. Consider Plato's Laws, for example.

Yes, this is what I interpret the line to mean as well -- and I don't see that as celebratory in nature, but that someone is possibly using wine or a means of escape, or even just taking every possible route of deliberation or consideration [sort of drunk with deliberation, over the top with internal debate and habitual worry] to cope with a problem they know they will ultimately have to face head on to make a transition into the next cycle of life. The "soaking your head" phrase is the clue I believe because that implies something undignified or excessive. You don't need to soak your head -- literally or figuratively -- to get the right effect -- but you may feel or THINK that this is called for.

I find that this line most often comes up for people you wouldn't imagine being excessive or off the charts with their behaviour, more for deliberate/conservative sorts of people. And there, I wonder whether they fear being excessive [or if they actually are] because their definition of "oh boy, I've gone out of bounds here" would be much tighter than someone else's. And in that case, I believe the Yi is saying there's no harm done -- just don't make your decision that way, wait until you've calmed down, gotten on both of your feet again, stood still a minute and thought it through. So I don't necessarily believe it's a caution that you are being excessive, but to be sure you are standing where YOU are feeling in control and as though you've considered everything you should before stepping into the next cycle with a clear mind. And, if the decision is already made, this is the head-clearing moment immediately after.

What's implied to me is that you don't NEED this step because you've done all the necessary work to finish this cycle by now -- but many people will pause here on the threshhold and do something that is their ritual, their need, before they leap or step into the future.

M-glo - when I read this in the context of your particular casting I imagine your family taking a moment to gather itself -- perhaps a bit of discussion and reconsideration of what the future will hold, perhaps a bit of excessive behaviour [drinking, flapping about, whatever is the family norm in a tense moment] and then you will go on into the future you have chosen. But, in essence, the decision will have been made and this line, to me anyway, is everybody getting their head around it, deciding where it puts them, and taking up their new role. I don't see anything stagnant, just a transition moment that is perfectly normal for the human race. Implies to me that everyone just incorporates your decision and goes forward.

 

[Trojina]

Just to add, each translation I have come accross speaks of drinking wine in truth and confidence as quoted earlier. Drinking wine 'in truth and confidence' does imply a celebration, in truth and confidence certainly would mean this is not initially escapism, its real, theres real cause for celebration. This drinking can degenerate into escapism or losing grip of the situation but I don't think the words 'drinking wine in truth and confidence' would be in every translation if one were drinking only to drown ones sorrows.

It only says 'if one soaks ones head', there is an 'if', one doesn't have to.

 

[arabella]

Just to add, each translation I have come accross speaks of drinking wine in truth and confidence as quoted earlier. Drinking wine 'in truth and confidence' does imply a celebration, in truth and confidence certainly would mean this is not initially escapism, its real, theres real cause for celebration. This drinking can degenerate into escapism or losing grip of the situation but I don't think the words 'drinking wine in truth and confidence' would be in every translation if one were drinking only to drown ones sorrows.

It only says 'if one soaks ones head', there is an 'if', one doesn't have to.

I actually see it as either way. As said, I've experienced this as a step that some would say -- why bother with that? Practically speaking, you didn't need it. But I think it's the "incorporation" step and however you [or in this case your family] goes about that process. So it could be lots of things, dependent on your idea of ritual or "drinking" in the situation and processing it. And it's a caution not to go overboard in that, whatever your "habit" of getting your head around something may be. It could be a blow-out party or tipping up a few yourself, or discussing until you're blue or jogging for fifty miles or, in my case, playing piano until the neighbours bang on the wall and tell me to shut up. It's a way to bring the decision or the change into a place where you see it clearly. "Celebration" I see as clear recognition and coming to a place where the decision -- the change of whatever type it is -- belongs to you, to where it has come home and you are clear and content and satisifed. So this would imply in the case of a child that the family takes in the situation, brings the child into view, and welcomes him/her home. 64.6 is merely the ritual step of doing that so far as i know. It just depends on whether your family does that with a party, a discussion, everybody waving their arms and shouting. I think the Yi just says people do it and whatever your means of getting used to the step that's being taken -- it's all ok -- just keep it in bounds because now it's time to get on with it. I always picture this line with the Yi smiling benignly at the needs of people to mark the occasion -- somehow -- but expecting that is the case and saying, so go ahead because you are people and this is your way.

 

[sooo]

Have to laugh at the idea that 64.6 is about drinking wine at all, especially the "drinking wine properly" comment. Is that red or white? Because they're each properly served differently. Does that include swishing the wine around in your mouth first, or cleansing the palate before tasting a different wine? Or perhaps positioning the pinky properly... no, I guess that's proper tea drinking. It is possible to soak ones head even when drinking tea.

64.6 changes to 4. No point in getting silly over it.

It's like the salesman who is closing the deal over lunch, and as the prospect is about to sign the contract, the salesperson makes a foolish comment in jest, and blows the deal.

And, Yi most certainly is relative - to the context of the question, unless one takes a purely fundamentalist view of it, in which case their head is all wet already.

 

[arabella]

Have to laugh at the idea that 64.6 is about drinking wine at all, especially the "drinking wine properly" comment. Is that red or white? Because they're each properly served differently. Does that include swishing the wine around in your mouth first, or cleansing the palate before tasting a different wine? Or perhaps positioning the pinky properly... no, I guess that's proper tea drinking. It is possible to soak ones head even when drinking tea.

64.6 changes to 4. No point in getting silly over it.

It's like the salesman who is closing the deal over lunch, and as the prospect is about to sign the contract, the salesperson makes a foolish comment in jest, and blows the deal.
And, Yi most certainly is relative - to the context of the question, unless one takes a purely fundamentalist view of it, in which case their head is all wet already.

This is basically the same thing as I'm saying. This line is a consolidation moment. It's when we say, OK we have an agreement, so everybody do their ritual thing to recognise that, and let's go on. And nobody needs to do something excessive or overboard at that moment, or you've gone too far. Consolidation, incorporation, of the decision needs to remain in bounds because the REAL thing is what happens next -- and that's walking the talk.

 

[Trojina]

This is basically the same thing as I'm saying. This line is a consolidation moment. It's when we say, OK we have an agreement, so everybody do their ritual thing to recognise that, and let's go on. And nobody needs to do something excessive or overboard at that moment, or you've gone too far. Consolidation, incorporation, of the decision needs to remain in bounds because the REAL thing is what happens next -- and that's walking the talk.

well I don't think it always has to be just that moment. supposing you win the lottery when you are very poor and in debt. In an instant all your problems are solved.....and you jump about in joy and maybe drink and laugh and shout and sing. But supposing you went on and on jumping and shouting and singing and drinking, metaphorically that is. Supposing you were so heady with your good fortune you just went on celebrating and spending and spending and didn't know when to sober up. Sooner or later you could be back in the same position you were in before you won the lottery., wouldn't that be wetting your head. So it can be an ongoing need to remain sober when one might have the urge to go on letting the good fortune turn ones head. I almost see a link with 22.3 though there isn't one


But yes one could say after winning the lottery say after a period of debt, one may need to get real and 'walk the talk'.

where i differ from you and Icastes is I would say, based only on my experince, is that there is something good there to celebrate. Infact I often find 64.6 predictive of that...so its always useful to know in advance when to put the bottle down.

This is general BTW as I say i can't really apply it to the question in this thread


64.6 changes to 40, release

 

[rodaki]

this thread has taken a number of interesting turns already -I hope mindingmilo is doing ok

when we were discussing 64's last lines in the Memorizing threads I had this image of them as the moments between sleep and waking up, but I think they could also be showing a baby entering the world . . I loved how you described 64.6 Arabella, I had never thought of it that way but it makes a lot of sense . .

As to the drinking tea part, it reminded me how I read once that one of the creators of the tea ceremony was a Zen monk called Ikkyu -whose ways were not exactly known for being sober, he often signed Crazy Cloud and practiced what's known as Red Thread Zen.
I wonder if wine, along with ritual, was used as a symbol of opening ones eyes to a different way of seeing . .


just a couple of circular thoughts . .

 

[mindingmilo7]

This has been helpful

Hi all! I had to change my name...lost my password

I have been loosely following the posts, but they seem to have diverted and become about the subtleties of reading the I Ching...

I do have reservations about following the interpretations of Icastes because it does see, to be personally interpreted and perhaps a bit biased. I have not yet made a decision. I have been talking to friends, trying to sit with my emotions and just make a decision I can feel comfortable with. It is a blessing that I found out early. I have an interview for a new job coming up and have just been trying to focus.

My concerns lie mostly in time and money concerns (I am a preschool teacher and make less than $14,000 a year) and having a toddler with another on the way seems very daunting. I know that either decision I make, I have to be certain about and comfortable with. I am also aware, though, that if anyone ever waits until "the perfect moment" to have children, they will forever be childless! I am hoping to get land, start a new job, make a move to a new city and get our lives in order...so how would a new child fare with that?

But amyhow...thank you for the comments and help. I think the I ching is telling me to make a decision and do the best I can with what comes, not get lax to have it happen again if I decide not to continue with the pregnancy and to not lose my vision. I do enjoy reading everyone's comments as they are very helpful and this process has helped me in some ways to realize what my true concerns and fears are. Comments and advice, help with the reading are all welcomed. Please continue to post. Thank you all and I will continue to follow and/or share any other reading I may do.

 

[sooo]

64.6 changes to 40, release

oops, my foolishness :bag: