I Ching/ pregnancy and abortion

[mindingmilo]

Hi, I have consulted the Ching in regards to a newly discovered pregnancy. I already have a very young son and am not sure whether adding another to the family would be a good decision right now.
It is a complicated situation that involves the father of my last child (my ex). He is pushing for an abortion (and can be very mercurial and manipulative). I am not opposed to the idea due to circumstances (and have considered it on my own), but do wish to make a decision that is universally best and that will be healthiest for myself and my son as well as being my own and not forced upon me.

I threw the following:
What should I do about this pregnancy? 44-with first and sixth lines changing
What to expect if I have an abortion? 26-with fourth and sixth lines changing
What to expect if I continue the pregnancy? 63-no changing lines

I am having a hard time interpreting...please help.

 

[desertlark]

uh..It is really serious question. I will try to show you how I see it.

hex.44 is about harmful temptations which are already around you and the lines seem to say that you should ignore expectations of the others if they are inappropriate. (44.6 He comes to meet with his horns. Humiliation. No blame.) and the first line sounds like there is a bad (inferor) person (your ex) who is trying to get power over you and should be stopped. Show him the door
hex.43 tells about determination. You should hold your ground and ward off negative tendencies or evil influences.

26.4 he headboard of a young bull, Great good fortune.
It tells that your thinkink about the aboriton shuold be stopped. It is like a descructive force inside you. And line 6 tells that then the child can grow in a healthly way It encourages you to take the responsibility. (26.6 he attains the way of heaven.)

"What to expect if I continue the pregnancy? 63-no changing lines" No body said that it will be easy. You should prepare yourself for hard times but it doesn`t mean that you will not cope with it.

This is how I see it I hope it will help.

 

[Trojina]

This is such a big question since its about if a fetus should live or die I wouldn't really want to say anything except its your choice.

The readings don't tell me much anyway maybe because I'd be very unwilling to advise you either way so can't see anything anyway

I mentioned this in a moderation thread where we are talking about 'small' questions and I linked to this since this is such a big question....no other reason

 

[icastes]

These are very difficult questions with very painful and difficult answers from the Yi. 44 is a picture of intercourse, coming in contact, and rendez-vous. It is the picture of the young girl who offers herself to men, and it suggests that this offering ought not to be done for the sake of influence. It suggests that there is a decline in fortunes. The moving lines, moreover, suggest that you are okay in the situation and that you are somewhat embarrassed by the encounter that led to this situation. The resultant hexagram, 43, is perhaps even more inauspicious than 44, where the woman is hurt. 43 is estrangement, awkwardness, and deviation from proper action. In a certain sense it is the opposite of 44, and thus it is the inability to make intercourse and or a meeting. Gua 43 suggests that this is a dangerous situation, and that it has to be met with unwavering resolve. Clearly, for children and family, these two hexagrams suggest that for family life and children, the situation is one of decline.

The question about the abortion itself is 26-4.6, which is a gathering up and accumulation, and the two moving lines are auspicious. The moving sixth line in particular promises a recovery. Moreover, the resultant hexagram, 34, provides influence, strength, and prestige that cannot be blocked. It basically says that for family life it is very good, unless you deviate in some way that will provide disharmony in the family. It could even lead to insolvency.

63 is a reaching of a perfect state, but also promises a decline afterwards.

Your situation, in other words, is a mess. The second question about the abortion itself seems to indicate that it is not a good idea. At the same time, the pregnancy question with 63 truly indicates that a continuation of the pregnancy will go well. The first question seems to say that this situation came about because there was a lot of bad behavior going on, as, after all, this pregnancy has been discovered in a situation where the family is broken up. Overall, the situation seems one where things are not only tough, but that the future may be very difficult no matter what you do.

The Yi says that you must be strong and unwavering in your resolve. I don't think that you ought to give credence to your ex-. He is part of the problem of 44 to 43. The sixth moving line promises a full recovery and seems to suggest that even if you have an abortion you will come out of it all right. The difficulty is 63 suggests that the pregnancy is continued would be very good for you in the short term. So, it appears to me that these three questions and the answers tilt towards not having an abortion. Yet, it doesn't promise a very bright future in the immediate term, whether you do or do not have an abortion. There seems to be a period that will be very difficult no matter what, which you must meet with strength and resolution. I wish you well.

 

[sooo]

Hi, I have consulted the Ching in regards to a newly discovered pregnancy. I already have a very young son and am not sure whether adding another to the family would be a good decision right now.
It is a complicated situation that involves the father of my last child (my ex). He is pushing for an abortion (and can be very mercurial and manipulative). I am not opposed to the idea due to circumstances (and have considered it on my own), but do wish to make a decision that is universally best and that will be healthiest for myself and my son as well as being my own and not forced upon me.

I threw the following:
What should I do about this pregnancy? 44-with first and sixth lines changing
What to expect if I have an abortion? 26-with fourth and sixth lines changing
What to expect if I continue the pregnancy? 63-no changing lines

I am having a hard time interpreting...please help.

44 is probably the most controversial hexagram discussed on this forum. I think it would be worthwhile to explore LiSe's translation and commentaries, since it represents a side of 44 not often provided. It deals a lot with child birth. http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html

The other hexagrams and lines are very worth checking out as well.

In general, I think your 26 reading has to do with not jumping too quickly to your decision, and your 63 answer simply means bringing to completion the birth, since that's what your question was.

 

[Trojina]

Hi, I have consulted the Ching in regards to a newly discovered pregnancy. I already have a very young son and am not sure whether adding another to the family would be a good decision right now.
It is a complicated situation that involves the father of my last child (my ex). He is pushing for an abortion (and can be very mercurial and manipulative). I am not opposed to the idea due to circumstances (and have considered it on my own), but do wish to make a decision that is universally best and that will be healthiest for myself and my son as well as being my own and not forced upon me.

I threw the following:
What should I do about this pregnancy? 44-with first and sixth lines changing
What to expect if I have an abortion? 26-with fourth and sixth lines changing
What to expect if I continue the pregnancy? 63-no changing lines

I am having a hard time interpreting...please help.

I said I wouldn't even attempt an interpretation because I don't want to even slightly influence someones decision on whether a child is born or not !.....but as I lay in the bath a few moments ago it occured to me the answers could be pretty literal...and I have seen Yi be incredibly literal over giving birth...or not. The answersmay simply describe what happens with the actual physical pregnancy ...nothing about what you should or shouldn't do

If aborted....26.4.6 seems to show something held back, restrained and I could take this as the soul of the child. It attempts an entrance into this world, if its aborted its restrained (26.4) and goes heavens way (26.6) ie back to the realm of spirit .

If pregnancy continues...well 63 may be very literal...of course the baby comes to full term, at least one can expect it to and you did ask about expectations not certainties.

Personally I think the 44 answer reflects your question and where you are with it. Presumably this was an unexpected event, not planned for and you need to make a decision about it (43) However I also think there was something in what desertlark said about others expectations...don't let yourself be pushed prematurely into a decision, you may need to stand your ground a little (44.6)

Hard to descibe all the implications if the pregnancy becomes another person in the world...so I'd say I think Yi is being pretty literal and the decision remains absolutely yours, theres no shoulds or shouldn'ts here.

I would imagine your heart has some say in the matter as to whether it feels right to you now or not...but yes do take your time, don't let anyone pressure you one way or the other

 

[rodaki]

Hi, I have consulted the Ching in regards to a newly discovered pregnancy. I already have a very young son and am not sure whether adding another to the family would be a good decision right now.
It is a complicated situation that involves the father of my last child (my ex). He is pushing for an abortion (and can be very mercurial and manipulative). I am not opposed to the idea due to circumstances (and have considered it on my own), but do wish to make a decision that is universally best and that will be healthiest for myself and my son as well as being my own and not forced upon me.

I threw the following:
What should I do about this pregnancy? 44-with first and sixth lines changing
What to expect if I have an abortion? 26-with fourth and sixth lines changing
What to expect if I continue the pregnancy? 63-no changing lines

I am having a hard time interpreting...please help.

Mindingmilo, your questions are about a very delicate issue and I too find it difficult to comment on your answers -not that they cannot be answered though.
If I may, perhaps a different approach in asking about this, beginning with your concerns and focusing on you rather than looking for predictive answers would be more useful . .

I don't mean to be critical here, but your questions feel to me a little to be looking outside for a resolution that comes from within and concerns first and foremost yourself and those closest to you . . .

 

[mindingmilo]

Icastes,

So many of these things are accurate...the situation is very much one of embarrassment for me, as the relationship I had with my son's father was not healthy. He is not a very reliable person and parenting with him has been very difficult. We are still going through court. We had been split up for a year (he cheated on me with my best friend) and he had come to me while I was in a new relationship asked me to marry him. I, of course, declined, but was still feeling very confused and felt the need to end my current relationship due to a myriad of circumstances, this being the one that tipped the scales. I then slept with my ex I think because of confusion, loneliness and the sadness of losing my family. It was not a good idea, as I knew at the time in my gut and it is somewhat humiliating to admit that I made such a weak decision. I have always felt embarrassed and scared allowing this man back into my life, yet I continue to do it. This is not the first time I have been in this position with this man. I had an abortion about a year ago after meditation and acupuncture brought a clear message and I knew it was the best choice. I do not regret it. Neither do I regret deciding to have my son despite the pressure I received not to...he is beautiful and amazing. Hence, the first hex makes an incredible amount of sense.

There are some things that seem contradictory that I could like to ask about...

You stated..."Clearly, for children and family, these two hexagrams suggest that for family life and children, the situation is one of decline."
...does this mean declining the pregnancy?

"The question about the abortion itself is 26-4.6, which is a gathering up and accumulation, and the two moving lines are auspicious. The moving sixth line in particular promises a recovery. Moreover, the resultant hexagram, 34, provides influence, strength, and prestige that cannot be blocked. It basically says that for family life it is very good, unless you deviate in some way that will provide disharmony in the family. It could even lead to insolvency."

"The second question about the abortion itself seems to indicate that it is not a good idea. At the same time, the pregnancy question with 63 truly indicates that a continuation of the pregnancy will go well."

...these statements also seem contradictory and this is also what was confusing to me in regards to the hexagrams. It seems to say that the abortion would end well, but you state that it is not a good idea?


Really, all I want is that I do what is best for me an my son, who is my number one priority. I guess the ultimate thought that has been coming to me is that this keeps happening. Is it because it is a lesson I refuse to heed or because a pregnancy is meant to be? I do feel as though everything would work out in the long run either way...but that does not mean that there is not a choice that would be healthiest for everyone involved. Is there something I can ask that would helpful to clarify? Or...really...does it all come down to my making a decision an sticking to it?

 

[mindingmilo]

Rodaki and Trojan,

It is funny that you mention there is no right or wrong in this situation. i suppose it is accurate that I should not rely on outside influence to make this decision. I think that what I was hoping for in this is that it would help to clarify what I want, as I don't know. I was definitely not anticipating or expecting this situation...I am in a bit of shock right now.

Rodaki- Thank you for the advice. I think that my true concerns are how this would affect my son and if it would prevent me from taking care of him and myself properly. I have been trying to get a job in a new city and get a bit of a fresh start for us and I am worried that a new pregnancy may create more stagnancy (which has been an issue for me). Having a new baby made it difficult to get a full time job and also to create a healthy space between myself an his father (who lives a few blocks away). Perhaps a better question to ask would be how this will affect my son and whether having another child would be healthy and motivating as oppose to dragging me back into an unhealthy relationship and inhibiting growth that would be helpful for me an my child.

 

[rodaki]

Rodaki and Trojan,

It is funny that you mention there is no right or wrong in this situation. i suppose it is accurate that I should not rely on outside influence to make this decision. I think that what I was hoping for in this is that it would help to clarify what I want, as I don't know. I was definitely not anticipating or expecting this situation...I am in a bit of shock right now.

Rodaki- Thank you for the advice. I think that my true concerns are how this would affect my son and if it would prevent me from taking care of him and myself properly. I have been trying to get a job in a new city and get a bit of a fresh start for us and I am worried that a new pregnancy may create more stagnancy (which has been an issue for me). Having a new baby made it difficult to get a full time job and also to create a healthy space between myself an his father (who lives a few blocks away). Perhaps a better question to ask would be how this will affect my son and whether having another child would be healthy and motivating as oppose to dragging me back into an unhealthy relationship and inhibiting growth that would be helpful for me an my child.

you're welcome :bows: . . I can see the reasons for your difficulty in this. I think the above quoted could be a more helpful approach in moving forward . .

be well!

 

[icastes]

Icastes,

--snip--

There are some things that seem contradictory that I could like to ask about...

You stated..."Clearly, for children and family, these two hexagrams suggest that for family life and children, the situation is one of decline."
...does this mean declining the pregnancy?

"The question about the abortion itself is 26-4.6, which is a gathering up and accumulation, and the two moving lines are auspicious. The moving sixth line in particular promises a recovery. Moreover, the resultant hexagram, 34, provides influence, strength, and prestige that cannot be blocked. It basically says that for family life it is very good, unless you deviate in some way that will provide disharmony in the family. It could even lead to insolvency."

"The second question about the abortion itself seems to indicate that it is not a good idea. At the same time, the pregnancy question with 63 truly indicates that a continuation of the pregnancy will go well."

...these statements also seem contradictory and this is also what was confusing to me in regards to the hexagrams. It seems to say that the abortion would end well, but you state that it is not a good idea?


Really, all I want is that I do what is best for me an my son, who is my number one priority. I guess the ultimate thought that has been coming to me is that this keeps happening. Is it because it is a lesson I refuse to heed or because a pregnancy is meant to be? I do feel as though everything would work out in the long run either way...but that does not mean that there is not a choice that would be healthiest for everyone involved. Is there something I can ask that would helpful to clarify? Or...really...does it all come down to my making a decision an sticking to it?

The decline of the family is about the general situation of your life, not just the pregnancy. The pregnancy is only a part of the problems you have, as you have explained above. Your family life, to be blunt, is broken and it will take a great deal of effort to bring good fortune to the family again. In the Yi, the family is of paramount importance, and as such it requires great care and devotion to maintain good fortune for the family. Clearly, that has not been the case with your family.

Now, I really don't think that Yijing is advising you to get an abortion, but at the same time it is saying that don't expect that your family life in the short term is going to be better. It is going to be tough. It will no less tough if you get the abortion or don't get an abortion. In other words, the situation in the short and to a certain extent in the long term is not good, except for that the pregnancy, should you choose it, with gua 63, will go well.

You must remember that the father of the children is bound by law practically everywhere to support the children. My sense is that your ex- doesn't want the child, because of financial considerations, after all, you said he is mercurial (the god of money and theft) and manipulative. He is responsible and must provide for his children, and as such you are going to have to get that money. The problem is that you are also stuck with him until the child or children grow up. So the situation is not exactly a happy one.

You should also consider the effect of what a second abortion will have on your health. While abortion is generally considered a safe procedure, to have more than one is generally not a good idea, especially in such a short period of time. If you hurt your health, which is very possible in such bad overall situations, you will not be helping your child. 44, the woman is hurt. That hurt also comes in the form of terrible stress and it does not resolve well, 43, without resolute conduct in maintaining the family. Maintaining the family is not simply doing things that are good for your present child. Family is more than just a single child. It also involves grandparents, other relatives, and even the family pet.

What the overall picture of the answers is that you must persevere and be strong about what you are doing. An abortion may be a sign of weakness that you are warned by the Yi not to do. The basic problem is that you, as the mother, are entrusted with the family and running the family, as is the case in ancient China. To do anything that is negative about family life is to violate the proper code of conduct and to deny the mother's proper role in life. As such, you must persevere and be resolute in your conduct, or else nothing will go well. I would have the child and not the abortion. But it is your decision, which is what the Yi is saying and you must always err for what is best in maintaining family life. If you are able to maintain the family, then good fortune will return. If not, then the outlook is bleak.

 

[mindingmilo]

Okay...well, I though about the questions I was asking and came to decide that it is bet to focus on how this affects my family (thank you all for your help). I threw new hexes, coming up with the following:

What effect will continuing this pregnancy have on my family?
64-with sixth line changing (a six). The End in Sight-Conflict

What effect will having an abortion have on my family?
11-with second line changing (a nine) and fifth line changing (a six) Peace-Aftermath

Both seem to work out okay (although I am fairly new at reading these)...although the changing lines bring up serious concerns? I am not sure of the meaning of this, especially after such a favorable first hex. Any input?

 

[rodaki]

hello again,

I'm not sure about your changing line in your first reading . . is it 64.5 to 6(=Conflict) or 64.6 to 40(=Release)? . .

either way, what stands out for me in these is the 64/63 pair.
Going forward with your pregnancy seems to signal a new cycle for your family (64), a new life beginning, needing a lot of care to take all necessary precautions and keep things within safety limits but also bringing you a lot of joy
Not going forward appears to be about keeping things as they are (63) but again being happy and peaceful among the people you love and care about, be they near or far (lines in 11).

Honestly, Mindingmilo, I cannot see your answers favoring any of the two outcomes, and I think the answer has to come from your own judgement of the practical considerations that are entailed in this . .
fwiw though, and since you did express concerns over this, your first reading does hint towards a re-kindled relationship which you'll have to be attentive of, while line 2 of your second reading implies keeping equal distance from anything that could upset your balance . . .

wishing you lots of strength and support with this!!

 

[goddessliss]

Hi mindimilogirl,
I have nothing to say about the hexes but to offer my support too like rodaki. Many, many women have been through this same dilemma including myself and whatever decision you make is always the right one. Liss xx

 

[icastes]

Okay...well, I though about the questions I was asking and came to decide that it is bet to focus on how this affects my family (thank you all for your help). I threw new hexes, coming up with the following:

What effect will continuing this pregnancy have on my family?
64-with sixth line changing (a six). The End in Sight-Conflict

What effect will having an abortion have on my family?
11-with second line changing (a nine) and fifth line changing (a six) Peace-Aftermath

Both seem to work out okay (although I am fairly new at reading these)...although the changing lines bring up serious concerns? I am not sure of the meaning of this, especially after such a favorable first hex. Any input?

Essentially, 64 means that the family's fortunes are stagnant and not very good. Only after a long time will these fortunes turn around. The sixth moving line is a warning not to make any missteps that ought to be punished. Don't get in over your head, or else you will be punished. Again, 40 means that eventually time will correct the situation.

11 is a very auspicious gua; however, it also means that you cannot be remiss, careless, negligent or arrogant, because it is so auspicious. In other words, correct behavior insures that you will have good fortune, which is one of the pilars of the Yijing. The second moving line means that you must have watchful attention to what you are doing and to plan correctly. The fifth line moving implies that you must live and deal with virtuous people in order to advance. While 63 is initially auspicious, it is filled with warnings that a decline will take place. As read this second question that while you think things will go well, you will face a decline if you don't do what you have to do, i.e., live with virtuous people and act correctly. In other words, I don't think that the Yi is sanctioning an abortion as an abortion is a direct attack to your family life by the very nature of the act. What is demanded here is prudence and great caution and putting your life in order.

I think the best way to approach this problem is to envision what a superior individual, a sage, would do and what choices that individual would make. If you can do that, then you will come to the best decision.

 

[rodaki]

icastes I have to say I find it a bit disturbing how you seem to be pushing your own ideas about 'what's right and proper' on mindingmilo's readings. I know that it's inevitable that our own judgement of things will rub off onto our readings -to a bigger or lesser extent- but what's prudent and sagely and right is not always the same for everyone.
I believe giving a reading should be different to simply presenting our understanding of what people should do to put their lives 'in order'.

 

[icastes]

Right and proper is what an ancient Chinese sage or ruler would think. What is right and proper is very obvious in the Yijing when it comes to family. You do everything possible within what is right to expand and preserve that family. You would be hard pressed to interpret the Yi in any other way when it comes to family. The Yi is not relativistic. It does not accept situation ethics. The point is very simple: When you have bad fortune about a vast part of our lives, it is because we have not behaved properly. It is our bad choices that have put us in many bad circumstances. No in all, but in very many. However, there is nothing in the YIjing that says that all things are relative.

 

[Tohpol]

Right and proper is what an ancient Chinese sage or ruler would think. What is right and proper is very obvious in the Yijing when it comes to family. You do everything possible within what is right to expand and preserve that family. You would be hard pressed to interpret the Yi in any other way when it comes to family. The Yi is not relativistic. It does not accept situation ethics. The point is very simple: When you have bad fortune about a vast part of our lives, it is because we have not behaved properly. It is our bad choices that have put us in many bad circumstances. No in all, but in very many. However, there is nothing in the YIjing that says that all things are relative.

By the same token Absolutism is always pretty dangerous, especially when related to a divination tool or religious, philosophical teachings. Dogmatism can descend, saturated in the perceived moral rectitude of the reader.

 

[Trojina]

Right and proper is what an ancient Chinese sage or ruler would think. What is right and proper is very obvious in the Yijing when it comes to family. You do everything possible within what is right to expand and preserve that family. You would be hard pressed to interpret the Yi in any other way when it comes to family. The Yi is not relativistic. It does not accept situation ethics. The point is very simple: When you have bad fortune about a vast part of our lives, it is because we have not behaved properly. It is our bad choices that have put us in many bad circumstances. No in all, but in very many. However, there is nothing in the YIjing that says that all things are relative.

How would you know what an ancient Chinese sage would think ? Surely their thoughts weren't so predictable ?

 

[rodaki]

Right and proper is what an ancient Chinese sage or ruler would think. What is right and proper is very obvious in the Yijing when it comes to family. You do everything possible within what is right to expand and preserve that family. You would be hard pressed to interpret the Yi in any other way when it comes to family. The Yi is not relativistic. It does not accept situation ethics. The point is very simple: When you have bad fortune about a vast part of our lives, it is because we have not behaved properly. It is our bad choices that have put us in many bad circumstances. No in all, but in very many. However, there is nothing in the YIjing that says that all things are relative.

What I'm finding hard pressed to understand is how anyone can come up with such a rigid idea of how we should understand the IChing.

And while I find 'relativistic' a rather sloppy term in this discussion, I think that 'relatedness' is the basic building block and reason for using the IChing. Iow I find we basically consult it to discover what is the best way to relate to the reality that unfolds around us and what is the best way to interact with that fluid, dynamic reality. That is also the reason of using a random method to find our corresponding answers, or else, if things were as you claim, for an issue pertaining to family we would just proceed to read hexagram 37 and not go into the whole process of finding how other hexagrams relate to our situation and question.

And if that was what happens, we would also have to admit that anyone consulting the IChing should do so on the premise of abiding to the social rules and norms and morals of a certain time in China instead of truly and fully interacting with life as we know and live it in the present.
And that of course would turn the IChing from a way to relate to our inner, higher selves to a religious or moral handbook, not much different from any other of that kind and as further removed as possible from what we know as a book on Changes.

So I guess my point is very simple: the way I have understood it so far, if there's anything that separates giving a reading from the IChing to just offering our own pre-determined ideas on how things should be, is exactly trying to find how any given reading relates to the unique, individual circumstances of the querent's life . .

 

[Trojina]

Essentially, 64 means that the family's fortunes are stagnant and not very good. Only after a long time will these fortunes turn around. The sixth moving line is a warning not to make any missteps that ought to be punished. Don't get in over your head, or else you will be punished. Again, 40 means that eventually time will correct the situation.

To digress for a moment why would you see hex 64 as meaning family fortunes are stagnant ? 64 doesn't seem stagnant to me. 64.6 refers to celebration, the warning being not to go too far in that celebration and undo any good fortune gained. There isn't anything referring to punishment in 64.6 as far as I can see, only a forfeit if you go too far but overall theres celebration

In general I agree with Dora, she said it best I think.

 

[icastes]

How would you know what an ancient Chinese sage would think ? Surely their thoughts weren't so predictable ?

They left many writings for us to evaluate and analyze. Haven't you read them?

 

[icastes]

By the same token Absolutism is always pretty dangerous, especially when related to a divination tool or religious, philosophical teachings. Dogmatism can descend, saturated in the perceived moral rectitude of the reader.

There is a balance, an absolute balance, one might say. There is always flexibility and change, which is what the Yijing is about. But there is also a standard of judgment and behavior that is called for in all things in the Yi. By ignoring that, you miss the entire core of the book.

 

[icastes]

To digress for a moment why would you see hex 64 as meaning family fortunes are stagnant ? 64 doesn't seem stagnant to me. 64.6 refers to celebration, the warning being not to go too far in that celebration and undo any good fortune gained. There isn't anything referring to punishment in 64.6 as far as I can see, only a forfeit if you go too far but overall theres celebration

In general I agree with Dora, she said it best I think.

64, not yet across, is the state of disorder that proceeds order. Not one single line celebrates, although line 4 promises a good end after a long time. The sixth line is not about celebration, but about self-control and moderation and good sense. Hence, the situation here is one where the family is in disorder, thus stagnation. Order begins with 3, and moves from there.

 

[icastes]

What I'm finding hard pressed to understand is how anyone can come up with such a rigid idea of how we should understand the IChing.

And while I find 'relativistic' a rather sloppy term in this discussion, I think that 'relatedness' is the basic building block and reason for using the IChing. Iow I find we basically consult it to discover what is the best way to relate to the reality that unfolds around us and what is the best way to interact with that fluid, dynamic reality. That is also the reason of using a random method to find our corresponding answers, or else, if things were as you claim, for an issue pertaining to family we would just proceed to read hexagram 37 and not go into the whole process of finding how other hexagrams relate to our situation and question.

And if that was what happens, we would also have to admit that anyone consulting the IChing should do so on the premise of abiding to the social rules and norms and morals of a certain time in China instead of truly and fully interacting with life as we know and live it in the present.
And that of course would turn the IChing from a way to relate to our inner, higher selves to a religious or moral handbook, not much different from any other of that kind and as further removed as possible from what we know as a book on Changes.

So I guess my point is very simple: the way I have understood it so far, if there's anything that separates giving a reading from the IChing to just offering our own pre-determined ideas on how things should be, is exactly trying to find how any given reading relates to the unique, individual circumstances of the querent's life . .

There is no distinction between innner and outer selves in ancient China and throughout most of Asia as well as in pagan Europe. The notion of higher inner self is Christian and was invented by Christianity. Reality is not a model that exists apart from us. We are reality in all its forms. One doesn't relate to reality, because reality is not apart from us.

 

[rodaki]

oh, ok, well, I guess I'm just a form of ancient chinese reality talking to myself then

 

[arabella]

If this were my own reading, I would take Hexagram 64.6 as indicative of the process of making this decision, being at a stage somewhat after the horse was let out of the barn, feeling perhaps that I invite difficult consequences either way and wishing I wasn't standing in such a place, that this weren't the question, nor the answer, that was required of me to bring closure. This line always strikes me as someone distraught, somebody who is pushed to the edge of whatever they know before the answer, or the next cycle of life, comes along. I often get this for somebody who is staying up all night pondering until they are worn out, or just plain tying one on because they are at the edge of their rope.

And that's where I can see the order, the Peace of hexagram 11 coming along. There's a saying, don't know where it came from: "If Mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy." And I think most of what goes on in a family relates to that. If you have peace, the family has peace. And of course that relates to the Mama being a fairly centred person who just wants what's best for everybody concerned and it sounds like you are turning yourself this way, and that, trying to be just such a person.

I don't know the answer, for you, to the issue you face. I would know for myself, but that's got nothing to do with you enquiring from the IChing. What happened in China thousands of years ago in a culture that was nothing like we can imagine can't be the answer either. Even China today would be baffling to most Westerners and, were we to respond to that culture's dictates most of us would be dissatisfied with the outcome I believe. I can only think that the IChing isn't entirely culturally dependent, but a means of divination that responds to patterns of order and rightness in a more flexible way. Whatever the Yi means to you, I sincerely wish you the peace that Hexagram 11 would say you are entitled to and soon to claim. XO Arabella

 

[Trojina]

If this were my own reading, I would take Hexagram 64.6 as indicative of the process of making this decision, being at a stage somewhat after the horse was let out of the barn, feeling perhaps that I invite difficult consequences either way and wishing I wasn't standing in such a place, that this weren't the question, nor the answer, that was required of me to bring closure. This line always strikes me as someone distraught, somebody who is pushed to the edge of whatever they know before the answer, or the next cycle of life, comes along. I often get this for somebody who is staying up all night pondering until they are worn out, or just plain tying one on because they are at the edge of their rope.

And that's where I can see the order, the Peace of hexagram 11 coming along. There's a saying, don't know where it came from: "If Mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy." And I think most of what goes on in a family relates to that. If you have peace, the family has peace. And of course that relates to the Mama being a fairly centred person who just wants what's best for everybody concerned and it sounds like you are turning yourself this way, and that, trying to be just such a person.

I don't know the answer, for you, to the issue you face. I would know for myself, but that's got nothing to do with you enquiring from the IChing. What happened in China thousands of years ago in a culture that was nothing like we can imagine can't be the answer either. Even China today would be baffling to most Westerners and, were we to respond to that culture's dictates most of us would be dissatisfied with the outcome I believe. I can only think that the IChing isn't entirely culturally dependent, but a means of divination that responds to patterns of order and rightness in a more flexible way. Whatever the Yi means to you, I sincerely wish you the peace that Hexagram 11 would say you are entitled to and soon to claim. XO Arabella

Oh ? Interesting, very different to my experience of 64.6, don't connect it with being distraught at all. You aren't thinking of 63.6 are you ? See post 12 where MM cast 64.6

Wilhelms 64.6

There is drinking of wine in genuine confidence. No blame. But if one wets his head he loses it in truth.

Hilarys

Being true and confident in drinking wine
Not a mistake
Soaking your head
Being true and confident losing your grip on that

I've always experienced it as a wonderful time of celebration (that often includes drinking) after some great problem or trouble is laid to rest.....the only warning being if you get over confident and lax , takingthings for granted you could lose what you gained.

64 is not yet crossing, a transition...nothing being quite where it belongs, in 64.6 one feels ones made the transition though one shouldn't be over confident about it one could have just a little celebration...infact alittle intoxication frees the mind a little which is important in moving on here....not being blind drunk though

How this relates to the question I really wouldn't like to say, probably mindingm could think how it may apply.

 

[Trojina]

64, not yet across, is the state of disorder that proceeds order. Not one single line celebrates, although line 4 promises a good end after a long time. The sixth line is not about celebration, but about self-control and moderation and good sense. Hence, the situation here is one where the family is in disorder, thus stagnation. Order begins with 3, and moves from there.

well if not one line celebrates then why is he drinking wine in 64.6 ? yes its about self control following some time of a little intoxication at good fortune. There is generally good reason for that celebration...or if you prefer that little headiness at how well things are going

I don't really understand your definition of stagnation. Being in a time of transition where things aren't in their right places yet is not a stagnant time. Everything is moving so thats hardly stagnation is it

 

[Trojina]

They left many writings for us to evaluate and analyze. Haven't you read them?

I don't think any of the writings you refer to offer instructions on precisely how to live or more specifically whether one should abort a fetus or not ?

Perhaps you are thinking of something specific...