I-Ching respond to questions other than that which asked?

[bostonian]

I'm finding that sometimes when I ask the I-Ching a specific question about some situation in my life, it seems to respond to another aspect of that situation. When that happens, I get the feeling that the I-Ching is, in effect, saying, "Never mind about that [the specific question I asked], what you really need to be concerned with is this."

Your thoughts?

thanks

 

[meng]

This (what you describe) is the experience of many, maybe even most. I believe some folks hold fast and apply the answer to the original question. But most seem more flexible than that.

Most tend to develop a relational dialogue with the Yijing (whether real or imagined), which makes it more as an exchange: Yi understands me, I try to understand what Yi says. That sometimes reaches beyond the scope of the original question.

It's all very individual. Right ways and wrong ways are debated all the time. God bless the child that's got his own.

 

[rickmatz]

I'm finding that sometimes when I ask the I-Ching a specific question about some situation in my life, it seems to respond to another aspect of that situation. When that happens, I get the feeling that the I-Ching is, in effect, saying, "Never mind about that [the specific question I asked], what you really need to be concerned with is this."

Your thoughts?

thanks

How would you know?

 

[Sparhawk]

How would you know?

How would he NOT know? IMO, the Yijing talks to us at a deeper level from that of simply reading from a book the text attached to a hexagram. If a subject is sincere and committed to the question (*), his/her sub-conscious is intricately attached to the given answer. That means, what's "really" important for the subject, what has a priority in his/her present, perhaps not on a conscious level, will take precedence and resonate with the answer obtained, more than with the question that was voiced to the oracle. This is a rare occurrence but it happens.

(*) "Sincere and committed" is a way to imply, in this context, that the subject is focused, meditative and concentrated in the question.

 

[Trojina]

How would you know?

precisely how could he not know. I find the Yi most often does not answer the precise question i ask with words, it bypasses all that and answers what I really need to know.

 

[meng]

huh.. I think "How would you know?" is a perfectly reasonable question, and I don't understand the reverse question of "how would he not know?" Well, I sorta understand where Luis goes with tuning in with sincerity, etc.

How would I know if Yi was answering my question directly and literally, as opposed to Yi speaking to something else, something underlying or more important, or perhaps to something I have control over, such as my own psyche? Sometimes I'd know by what clicks inside, by what affirms the subject/object. But that can also be misleading, say, in the case of too much enthusiasm, or a prejudice I have about something. Fact is - I wouldn't know for sure. I'd surmise. And I believe that's all anyone does, even those who claim with authority to know with absolute certainty.

 

[Sparhawk]

How would I know if Yi was answering my question directly and literally, as opposed to Yi speaking to something else, something underlying or more important, or perhaps to something I have control over, such as my own psyche? Sometimes I'd know by what clicks inside, by what affirms the subject/object. But that can also be misleading, say, in the case of too much enthusiasm, or a prejudice I have about something. Fact is - I wouldn't know for sure. I'd surmise. And I believe that's all anyone does, even those who claim with authority to know with absolute certainty.

No, no, no. I'd never claim certainty on anything that's related to a Yi reading. How could I? For all the "fortune telling" many claim using the Yi, the system isn't deterministic but a set of shifting possibilities with good statistical chances (and that is if you know what you are doing...) What I say is that the subject will find resonance with a given answer or it will not. A querent, given an answer, if properly attuned to his/her time and circumstances, would/should feel where that resonance is more sound and that not always happen to fall, by default, with the asked question but with something that's been tugging, perhaps consciously or perhaps unconsciously, in the background. The quality or value of said "background" issue is up to the querent to ascertain, but, if it comes to the forefront of the querent's thoughts, prompted by an answer that should be unrelated to it, some value it must have. My bets are that the oracle is more attuned to his/her reality than him/herself is. Even if the issue appears to be of little importance, I believe in the adage of the butterfly's wings stirring a storm far away. It could very well be that the oracle is trying to prevent an issue from snowballing...

or perhaps to something I have control over, such as my own psyche?

Here you ask a good and curious question. I ask then, when is a question asked, or the oracle consulted, in a vacuum of your own psyche? It is always about the subject's psyche. It is IT in action, from formulating a question to interpreting an answer. Decision making is always a process that manifest consciously, even if that process goes through obscure, internal and unseen paths...

 

[rickmatz]

Luis,

I think we're in agreement here. My feeling is that the I Ching, or any other "oracle" is really a reflection of what's going on inside of ourselves. That may certainly include more than the specific question that has been asked.

So in answer to the original question - it depends.

Best Regards,

Rick

 

[Sparhawk]

I think we're in agreement here. My feeling is that the I Ching, or any other "oracle" is really a reflection of what's going on inside of ourselves. That may certainly include more than the specific question that has been asked.

Rick, I could get really weird with personal theories of what's under the hood of "oracles"... But yes, in simple terms, the oracle is a mirror. A mirror is always needed to see one's own wrinkles and nose hair before they are pointed out to us by others... Same with everything else, if the person wants some more control of his life than is granted by not using one.

 

[meng]

What I say is that the subject will find resonance with a given answer or it will not.

ahhh, ok, I understand now.

Here you ask a good and curious question. I ask then, when is a question asked, or the oracle consulted, in a vacuum of your own psyche? It is always about the subject's psyche. It is IT in action, from formulating a question to interpreting an answer. Decision making is always a process that manifest consciously, even if that process goes through obscure, internal and unseen paths...

I agree, insomuch as the psyche is what Yi speaks to, but not that it always effects or intends to effect a decision. Such as when it speaks simply of what is, or what will be.

It's the act of interpreting where certainty runs afoul. Not what Yi says but how Yi is interpreted. How many times, for instance, do people lay heavy guilt trips on themselves (and others?) because of their own punitive nature or upbringing, which they then bring into their interpretation? How many negative things are read where Yi never intended it? How many positive things are read where Yi never intended it? We agree here, I'm sure.

With all these variables going on, certainty becomes more like taking your best shot with a decision, or at least improving your perception of what's really going on here. That's why I use it. Not so much for decisions but for clearer insight.

I don't think certainty and Yijing even sound right used in the same sentence. I think being at home within all the dynamics of change is the name of the game.

 

[Sparhawk]

It's the act of interpreting where certainty runs afoul. Not what Yi says but how Yi is interpreted. How many times, for instance, do people lay heavy guilt trips on themselves (and others?) because of their own punitive nature or upbringing, which they then bring into their interpretation? How many negative things are read where Yi never intended it? How many positive things are read where Yi never intended it? We agree here, I'm sure.

Oh God, yes!

With all these variables going on, certainty becomes more like taking your best shot with a decision, or at least improving your perception of what's really going on here. That's why I use it. Not so much for decisions but for clearer insight.

Indeed. I believe we are better by having a tool that would help us walk the path than by not having it. Still, we are the ones that must take one step after the other.

 

[Trojina]

Rick, I could get really weird with personal theories of what's under the hood of "oracles"... But yes, in simple terms, the oracle is a mirror. A mirror is always needed to see one's own wrinkles and nose hair before they are pointed out to us by others... Same with everything else, if the person wants some more control of his life than is granted by not using one.

Oh God I wish you would....if not here then on CC...go on..the weirder the better

 

[hilary]

Trojan, are you sure you want to encourage him?

...

I am a little bit wary round all this, because it's so hard to engage with question and answer in the kind of complete, conscious, sincere, committed way you're describing. When someone concludes that the answer isn't a response to their question, how often does this come from that kind of deep connection, and how often does it come from frustration at not being able to make sense of the reading right away? Or from just not being able to accept the answer as it is? (By the way, there are a couple of possible answers to 'how could he not know?')

I find that provided the question was clear, and asked wholeheartedly, it's best to read Yi's reply as a straightforward, direct answer: maybe sometimes challenging the terms of the question, but answering it. That seems to be a good beginner's default assumption, anyway.

 

[Sparhawk]

I am a little bit wary round all this, because it's so hard to engage with question and answer in the kind of complete, conscious, sincere, committed way you're describing.

Wariness has the side-effect of closing one's perception to all the possible options...

When someone concludes that the answer isn't a response to their question, how often does this come from that kind of deep connection, and how often does it come from frustration at not being able to make sense of the reading right away? Or from just not being able to accept the answer as it is?

The tree, Hilary, the tree (but is all about the forest...) I wasn't suggesting, not by a long shot, that if the answer doesn't seem to apply to a question then the querent should start looking around for a place to fit it in. Or was I? No, the process is much more subtle than that, takes other mental paths, and at the same time should be an obvious connection for the querent. Like a "holy cranes, this is what the oracle is referring to!" It happens, not very often, but it does.

(By the way, there are a couple of possible answers to 'how could he not know?')

Yes, I can think of a few myself but they are, in my experience, usually justifications for lack of self-knowledge. Mind you, I don't know anybody alive that has mastered him/herself but I think I can intuit what that goal is, even if I'm as far from it as anybody. NOT knowing is our default setting. Following that thought, we appear to be off the hook for NOT realizing some specific subtleties of our minds, such as oracle interpretation. Or are we? That doesn't mean we should stop learning how to overcome those shortcomings.

A developed intuition is a form of holistic knowledge of ourselves and our place between Heaven and Earth. If your intuition is tugging at your coat in another direction at the moment of consulting an oracle, I'd pay attention to it.

I find that provided the question was clear, and asked wholeheartedly, it's best to read Yi's reply as a straightforward, direct answer: maybe sometimes challenging the terms of the question, but answering it. That seems to be a good beginner's default assumption, anyway.

Well, yes. But this isn't a graded class where we should tone down the level of rhetoric for those that are considered beginners. Personally, I would take it as patronizing if someone holds information from me because they think I'm not prepared to digest it (and I absolutely despise those that believe that can read one's level of spirituality to judge what and how much information they should release to you -- information they believe is proprietary of some esoteric schools and traditions --, in the name of unseen sages and gods/goddesses; believe me, they are around and some even lurk in here... )

That that is the "safe" default assumption for beginners, doesn't mean other options shouldn't be considered by those that have a little experience with the Yijing. I'm almost sure that with the years you've accumulated doing readings, for others, but, most importantly, for yourself, that you have reached the bridge of "yes-thank you-but-what-if." I hope you have. "Certainty" is the most dangerous of all illusions.

 

[Trojina]

Theres lots of ways of knowing and I'm not sure (no pun intended) any of em include certainty. When i feel the Yi has answered me in such a way as seeming not to address the specific question i asked i don't think its ever been due to frustration, my sense is more like "oh yeah, of course, you're answering my real question"...or sometimes one gets a prediction not a 'how to' when one is asking for a 'how shall i' but then finds there is no 'how to' for the event one questions about is infact not going to happen. In that way its much more than a mirror to my mind..indicating something beyond the knowlege of my personal mind...You know like 'how shall i best get job x' and Yi answers to the effect of 'not there'..its not answering my question exactly, its gone beyond that to the salient fact that that there is no 'how to' in view of the fact there is no company to work for, its gone bust..which of course one can verify later but initially one has the sense of 'not there' anyway


(Yes just reading Luis previous posts I don't think there is ever an element, for me anyway, of not understanding my answer so hunting around for a way for it to fit. If i don't understand i can happily admit it to myself, no need to hunt.. Its always more instantly recognisable..the answer not direct to the question, with an 'aha' somewhere.. IOW ones own intuition. I think in ones own readings one can usually discern what is an intuitive connection)

(Am I sure and certain I want to hear more of Luis 'really weird personal theories'..?oh yes, sure as i ever am of anything...but then I know I'm safe as i don't think he will...not in broad daylight anyway. Its the sort of thing one would have to catch him unawares with, you know casually discuss something else with an appearance of nonchalence and disinterest in his weird theories ...then he might just reveal one of them accidentally maybe...actually i think he did once and i wan't sure i understood it but i still liked it anyway)

 

[hilary]

Ack! That stick you're holding? (You know, the one from the tree in the forest?) Try the other end

The spiritual 'grading' and hierarchy stuff brings me out in a violent rash; I don't think talking about 'beginners' in the context of Yi implies anything of the kind. A beginning is where you start; starting is what I do whenever I pick up the beads. So when Bostonian (on another thread) mentions 'beginner's questions', that makes me think about foundations, and that makes me think about patience and trust. (With oracle and with intuitive nudges.)

I wasn't suggesting, not by a long shot, that if the answer doesn't seem to apply to a question then the querent should start looking around for a place to fit it in.

I know.

 

[hilary]

Trojan - yes - the
Q: 'How do I do x?'
A: 'You don't'/ 'X isn't real'/ 'X is a shockingly bad idea'
dialogue is one I had in mind when I mentioned Yi 'challenging the terms of the question'. I've also noticed that happening in subtler ways, for instance talking to the thought-metaphors behind the question.

I think in ones own readings one can usually discern what is an intuitive connection

Yup - I spend ages trying to persuade people that the intuitive connection is the answer.

 

[fkegan]

Does the Yi Oracle relate to the question we ask or do we?

The simple assumption is that we pose a question to the Yi and then it answers it from straight forward Western doctrines of causality. However that is only one view of causality and a rather unprovable one as Hume noted.

Looking at various situations where various folks cast oracles, the Yi seems to answer each person as they NEED rather than any particular verbal question. Those who need to be able to literally apply what they read in their revered text as the precise answer to their exact question find that. Those who have other needs also find them satisfied by the Yi oracle answer.

One experimental demonstration of this is the two natural number cocktail party technique. Years ago I realized that humans were incapable to picking random numbers and any pair of natural numbers up to 64 that folks told in answer to my request would work as an insightful Yi oracle describing them to me or whatever else was appropriate to the meeting and conversation going on between us.

So, can the Yi oracle freelance, describing something other than exactly what you might ask? Yes of course. If you need or insist upon an exact or even literal reply, that is available. If you are open to a wider range of answers or you are in need of other insight than you asked that also available. If you have no idea of the question being asked and just answer with a pair of numbers 1-64 that will also do.

At one social gathering in Belgium back in the day I asked a chemistry prof for two numbers. He thought he had simply replied with 2 small square numbers. However, the Yi oracle described his personal reality in that setting quite exactly (others at the party knew him well). And he felt much better for the experience, which I guess was what he needed at that moment.

Frank

 

[bostonian]

Just a quick note to thank you all so much for the detailed and thought-provoking answers to my question

 

[hilary]

Thank you for asking it!

The simple assumption is that we pose a question to the Yi and then it answers it from straight forward Western doctrines of causality.

Mph - that would be the Yi-as-slot-machine theory, not my favourite either. But the question-answer connection seems to be much more personal - part of the whole conversation-relationship-mirror-parent thing that divination does. Within that, Yi answers the whole person, and answers the question insofar as it's the person's 'focal point'. I think.

 

[meng]

There's a couple quotes here that I really like.

Theres lots of ways of knowing and I'm not sure any of em include certainty.

NOT knowing is our default setting.

It doesn't mean that you can't reason a simple answer to a simple question. It means some potential stew may be wasted (not-realized), if one doesn't see what is beneath or behind the obvious. But, sometimes an apple is enough, true. As Luis was saying, any such interest may be pursued to whatever degree it pleases ones mind and/or heart. There's plenty of water to drink and swim in, if one is so inclined. Or a simple washing of hands. It's all there, the full meal deal. That's the potential. That's not always what we're looking for, of course. Don't tell me how to make a watch, just tell me what time it is! Well, that's fair and practical too. Just depends what one is fishing or digging for.

 

[fkegan]

"The simple assumption from straight forward Western doctrines of causality is that we pose a question to the Yi and then it answers it ."

Mph - that would be the Yi-as-slot-machine theory, not my favourite either. But the question-answer connection seems to be much more personal - part of the whole conversation-relationship-mirror-parent thing that divination does. Within that, Yi answers the whole person, and answers the question insofar as it's the person's 'focal point'. I think.

Hi Hilary,
Remarkable how you react at once to the first line of my post and dismiss it according to your instant reaction to that line. The rest of the post went on to convey what I was talking about--- that the oracle answers personal need not the specific words of a specified question. How you got that to a Yi-as-slot-machine theory bewilders me.

My initial comment, since that seems all you noticed, was about the notion that the Yi oracle was dependent upon the prior phrasing of a question, so that the Yi oracle would follow the question as cause follows effect in Western philosophy. That was the leftover of a larger issue I was thinking about that it may well be that timing transcends us individuals. That the same realities that determine the oracle answer when we manipulate coins or such also determines what questions that appear in our minds at that general time or timing.

I figured that was a bit more advanced metaphysics than was appropriate to this thread, which now appears quite clear. My apologies for being unclear in my phrasing or using terms that pushed your buttons. The rest of my post had nothing to do with the line you objected to at all.

The rest of your answer seems compatible with my further remarks in general to the extent I can decipher them. Overall the Yi Oracle answers one in whatever manner you require. The extent to which the specific oracle-- answers the specific literal question posed is not certain. I have found personally, that those who choose to see literal answers from the Yi find them and those who choose to find the oracle engage in a more general conversation with their inward being find that too.

Frank

 

[hilary]

Frank, I wasn't arguing with you at all; I got the impression you were taking issue with the 'causality' view of question and answer, and I was agreeing with you on that, and then suggesting an alternative context within which the importance of the question and your 'experimental demonstration' made sense.