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hebe

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I am stuck. After 10 years of marriage (me - v in love still) my husband wants to go and do his own thing & end up cycling back to his native NZ with or without me depending on what happens en route - beginning with a retreat. I've been looking at what to do as it means that we will lose our job which we do together and our house. I asked the I Ching 2 questions (please help with both..) firstly I asked please give an image of what I am not seeing in our relationship which I thought would be quite important as I cannot get beyond loving him & understanding what he is doing. 19 with lines 3 and 4 moving. I also asked what necessary approach should I now take to the relationship and got 15 with 1 and 5 moving.

My understanding is that I need to toughen up and set boundries as it is inevitable that he is going to go... but I still find it hard to truly get to grips with what is happening and if he still loves me or not. I really ask for your insight and I have done alot of reading on threads as well - I'm not just asking blindly. Many thanks, Hebe
 

willowfox

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firstly I asked please give an image of what I am not seeing in our relationship which I thought would be quite important as I cannot get beyond loving him & understanding what he is doing. 19. 3 and 4 > 34

*******It suggests that the marriage has become to "settled" for him, and now the urge to move has taken over his thought processes, as Hex 34 is about the determination to move, to travel, the desire is overwhelming him, so he must act, he feels that what he is going to do is "right". I would think that astrologically something is "pushing" him, if he could stay still for another 6 months or so, the urge to go would dissipate.



I also asked what necessary approach should I now take to the relationship and got 15 with 1 and 5 moving.

******It suggests that you need to talk to him, ask him about your position in all this, what he expects you to do while he's freewheeling down Everest. Don't try to stop him going, or ask him why he is doing the tour de world, just talk to him about your position and how something needs to be sorted out now, and not to just up and leave you to find your own way as that isn't right. He needs to be a bit more responsible in his actions.
 

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The 19.3.4 suggests to me that you have to stand on your own two feet that maybe you've been too kindly in all of this on one hand, but inside simply not accepting what is becoming extremely obvious. That seems to indicate instincts pulling simultaneously in two opposing directions which must feel rotten. So maybe reverse these instinct which would mean being a bit less of a pushover on one hand, but on the other realising that he might just bolt and you won't gain anything by reacting in a judgmental way or chastising him.

In relation to 15.1.5 -- it does seem there's a lot to be gained by saying what's on your mind, how worried, disappointed and uncertain you are; that this whole scenario might be quite freeing to him, but leaves you in "no-man's land." Agreeing with WF that you should speak directly from your own experience and what this mean for you, not attempting to address the "right or wrong" of his desire to run amok, but the sheer sense of abandonment you feel -- which is quite real both emotionally and in the law. Even your employment is apparently tied up in a partnership with him. How is a person supposed to survive losing it all in one go? The fifth line would suggest that you have it in you to keep a "stiff upper lip" but that's not in your best interest. Say how you feel and go ahead and cry.
 
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hebe

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Thanks Willowfox and Arabella. You know, I've told him how I feel, but he say's that I can handle it and that once on my own I'll soar (he feels that I've been too dependent on him and not branching out & being the networker, spontaneous person he detects & has seen, & that I've got my own journey to do as well as him doing his own journey. If we come back together then fine. I understand in theory but as you say Arabella, it is heartbreaking at times when I allow it to come out. This is a huge time for me in terms of change and crisis and I really appreciate your help. Hebe
 

arabella

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Well Hebe, I really empathise here. God Bless you. I know it's terribly old-fashioned to say in these wonderfully modern times, but the time to "do one's own journey" should be prior to marriage, not after. I had one very similar and I forestalled the inevitable for years, until it wasn't just me, but me and three kids as collateral damage. All I can recommend to you, if he doesn't respond to what is suggested above is that you be smart for yourself, be as independent as you can and despite whatever shortcomings and limitations you may feel, stand firm for yourself and refuse to be the end-man on the "crack the whip" game. Do you know what I am saying? If you are in an abandoned position as a result of this "journey" that is so appealing, detach and take up your own cause, don't waste your life regretting and going back for more. Whatever this man's story, he is a coward to be doing this if he follows through. And that will prove out time after time.
 

iesha

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Hello, Hebe, I'm sorry for your story.

In relation to what Arabella said, though the story is very sad, only Hebe can really know if this action from his husband is because he is a coward. I think that an understanding of the marriage flow is only possible when both sides are together in body/mind/soul in the House, or anywhere where they dwell together. When they don't share the instant anymore, when one in mind is long away from the other, or when one subjugates oneself to the other and one side desappears, or when one just forgets about the other existance, I think in my experience, are the reasons for why the marriage lacks of memory and understanding, thus, of good fortune.

I don't agree when Arabela says "but the time to "do one's own journey" should be prior to marriage, not after." I believe that all our life we are doing our own journey. Detachment is essential to life and happiness (peace). It doesn't mean you won't have a marriage, but as I Ching says, if you always have in mind the end, you will have good fortune. Now, I forgot the hexagram which says about that.

As I am new in I Ching I can't help much with the readings. But all I can help Hebe is by saying to her that if this relationship is for lifetime, and both sides, though desagreeing at the moment in their opinions, are acting with truth in their hearts, it is not a necessary distance that is going to apart one from another, but maybe it is going to make the relationship even stronger. However, if one of the sides is not being truth from their heart, so this distance will be good to show that maybe that was the right thing to be done.

But all will be without fault, if you know you have done everything at your hand to do what you think is right.

I say that from my experience as the side that once had to leave my other half. It was a very difficult and sad experience, and I only did it when I thought the time was the right one, and when I was completely sure that was the right movement.

I'm sorry in case I'm being inconvinient. That is not my intention.
 

ginnie

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I agree with Willowfox's interpretation that he is under the influence of astrology. His strong feelings are telling him he has to leave; to pack his bags and hit the road. His feelings are so strong that he feels he must act on them.

You are a beautiful soul to be so understanding, Hebe.

It's fine for married people to talk of being free to go on their own journeys and so forth, but right now it looks like he is simply not appreciating you. If I were you, I might suggest to him that he just take a vacation alone and just see if that satisfies his need to be away. People become interconnected in subtle ways and as soon as they are apart, it's like there is a rubber band that pulls them back together again. Let him attempt to be away from home for some time without you, and let him not think any further into the future than that. I agree with Willowfox, who said that his wanderlust will probably blow over within the next six months.

I don't think you should allow him to sell the house. If he leaves, later he might want to return, so it becomes your responsibility, as his wife, to make sure there's a place for him to return to. You might ask the I Ching about this point in particular, hebe. :)
 
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willowfox

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I don't think you should allow him to sell the house.

Its not their house, they are working as a husband and wife team from what I can gather, like on an estate. It sounds like he is the "groundsman", and she the cook/housekeeper? So, when he leaves then she will automatically lose her job and all that goes with it.

Therefore, he is being very selfish in his desire to pedal off alone, the solution should have been to take her along, not on a stupid bicycle but on planes and trains to visit the various places of the world, stay in hotels etc. But the guy nearing his 50s and wants to slum it in a tent, out in the Gobi desert, crackers.

Does he really care for her anymore, it looks doubtful, so she needs to prepare unfortunately for the crash.
 
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hebe

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Need to think about all this - yes, we're in a couple job with all attached so to speak - that's right Willowfox. I will be back as there is so much here to read and absorb. I am very grateful. Hebe
 

ginnie

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the solution should have been to take her along, not on a stupid bicycle but on planes and trains to visit the various places of the world, stay in hotels etc.

Changing the location of a relationship does change the relationship, and I do so appreciate Willowfox's point.

Would he consent to the two of you taking short trips together -- without giving up your job situation completely? If you both have the same day a week 'off,' you could both go places together -- what we call here 'day trips.' Getting on a train and going someplace different for a day. Getting on a bus and seeing a place you've never seen before . . .

In other words, are there lesser measures that would work to accomplish the same thing, before using the surgeon's scalpel and performing major surgery?
 

arabella

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Sorry, but my experience doesn't support the idea that "changing the location of a relationship changes the relationship," having lived in a number of varied places and traveled extensively with a man who said all the things this fellow is saying, kept disappearing over years for various mysterious purposes, and then just disappeared. Maybe sometimes location changes something, but not necessarily.

We worked together too. Maybe that's the kiss of death, I don't know. But I wasn't appreciated in the work relationship either even though I often "held the fort" for him and never complained about the years of business travelling he did alone as well -- so should have seen the handwriting on the wall way before I did.

My caution to Hebe is based in sad experience and I did the "loving and understanding wife" part to a fare-thee-well and sad to say that a person who will walk off and leave you in the lurch may have no concept whatever what it feels like to be you instead of him. When you are so invested, so "stuck" as Hebe is saying and taking all the logical point of view and practical responsibility it's tough to fathom somebody who would take nothing very seriously. I'd bet I could match Hebe phrase for phrase in what she is being told is the point of all this. Even down to the "you'll soar" once you're on your own. I didn't. I had nothing and three kids to raise by then. When he DID just leave, he had plans how to thrive that didn't include us.

I think it's a pretty interesting bill of goods that men learn from somewhere -- each other? It doesn't seem to be a rampant instinct, but when it's there I'd suggest taking it quite seriously. After my situation became all too final, years on, my mother wanted to know why I'd never opened a separate bank account, made plans where else I could work [he was VP/stockholder in the company] or done a thing to prepare. I'd just gotten dead to being treated that way I believe, and when I found out it really was the end and he could care less, could have cared less all along, it was too late.

After some time talking with a counselor [ten years later mind you] I finally found out what causes this in guys and what I SHOULD have done and said. His counsel -- and he is VERY good at his job -- advised that I should have responded on my own behalf right away because behaviors like this don't change unless you stand up to them. And the words he used for abusing the love of your wife were far worse than "coward."
 

ginnie

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His counsel -- and he is VERY good at his job -- advised that I should have responded on my own behalf right away because behaviors like this don't change unless you stand up to them.

I totally agree. Hebe must say some things and get through to him, even if she speaks up about her love, how it has never died. We cannot know the state of Hebe's husband's heart, but she knows her own. And I think she needs to say what's in her heart and not be shy about it, either
 

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Amen, Ginnie. And of course their situation is entirely their own. I give my opinions/experiences for whatever they are worth. They are of little value to me now, but maybe they assist somebody else to be aware, speak up, and have some plans just in case.
 
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hebe

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Well, we're very good at that - and because its just the two of us we've done some amazing trips & day trips and in fact, every weekend do something different together plus holidays - the heart of it for him is that he wants to go and challenge himself alone & face himself and the challenges he finds along the way. We've done some talking and he asked the I Ching what would the outcome be if he left here in October (which at least would give us the summer and more time to plan). He got 40 with moving lines of 1,5 and 6 relating 10, which would suggest that it is an altogether good idea for him. About the trip on the whole he got unchanging 49. I do feel more open to the idea now that I've really seen the I Ching support his idea and as many of you above have suggested, that if I allow him to do his own thing by accepting and discussing - it could make the relationship stronger. I guess there is nothing that I can do apart from strengthen myself, plan (we're seeing a couple counsellor on Sat for some guidance), allow, and look at where I want my life to go and in what direction. The I Ching seems to suggest with this that I need to be firm with myself & stand on my own two feet - and maybe that's just for a while?.....or maybe just get it into my head and heart as well, that he may not come back. Thank you all for your input...its much appreciated. Hebe
 

willowfox

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he asked the I Ching what would the outcome be if he left here in October (which at least would give us the summer and more time to plan). He got 40 with moving lines of 1,5 and 6 relating 10

He is now in a situation where he must go, as he has talked about it so much, he has no choice now, it's a case of "do or die". Therefore he is now preparing himself for the eventual break away from you, putting you out of mind so to speak.

He has a goal and must go after it, so the potential is there for him to pedal away to NZ, his mind is made up, but whether his body will accommodate is another matter.

And the outcome is that he wants to prove to himself, to you, to anyone willing to listen, that he has got what it takes to be a "hero" for an hour.
 

willowfox

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About the trip on the whole he got unchanging 49.

The trip will not be easy, it will prove to be arduous and difficult, but he is going to need to fight to be successful as the changes that he will encounter along the road will be quite awesome and daunting, so will he actually do the full circuit or will he take a lot of short cuts along the way(boats, trains, planes?)
 
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hebe

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cycle ride & comment on my last post

my last comment didn't go through straight away for some reason, so it doesn't look as if I took any notice of the last posts you all...I've now only just seen them. Ok - this is just so supportive of you all thank you. Willowfox, yes he will be taking some other means - he's open to it all really - bike, train where needed. I think the do or die bit is just so spot on - he's said so many times, 'I've talked about it for so long, I've just got to do it now or never' so that rings true so much.

What really feels painful inside for me is reading the posts and realising that there are some very common threads here - & it does feel very similar to what arabella is saying and to what ginnie confirms. It feels less like something I support now, but more of an ordeal of getting through as it feels as if he is throwing something away - such a precious relationship, by a compelling desire. Well, no that's not strictly true, I do still support his needs & the process he is going through. but am still confused as it doesn't look as though I can do anything to stop him and yet there is always prayer & hope that this is something that will flow. I have fully understood your point arabella - very much so, & I need to look at the nitty gritty bits - which I am hoping the very down to earth counsellor will help us with. What to do though? I am doing alot alot alot of work on myself through healing, creativity, exercise, yoga, meditaion but probably need to get into the absolute steps of what next in practical terms.

Willow fox, thanks very much for your insight into those hexagrams for him - I am really trying to get a grip on this and can't tell you how much I value all your input. Hebe
 

ginnie

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He got 40 with moving lines of 1,5 and 6 relating 10, which would suggest that it is an altogether good idea for him.

Since H10, treading, can be about how we walk through life, might it not be that he is mainly dissatisfied with his lot in life, his occupation? Maybe the boss is insensitive or not easy to get along with? Does he see the boss as a difficult person?

Paraphrased from the Thomas McCleary translation:

When the troubles have been solved and there is nothing to do, coming back is auspicious. When there is still something to solve, that solution will turn out best if it is done early.

Line one moving -- In the beginning of solution, it is best to remain calm and rest.

Line 5 moving -- Only an enlightened person can bring release, and this is because s/he is not selfish. Who is the enlightened person here? The enlightened person is one who can forgive. That's the way I usually read this line; but I could be wrong.

Line 6 moving -- 'An officer shoots at a hawk on a high fence, getting it, to the benefit of all.' A hawk is a predatory, harmful bird. When what is harmful is perched on the fence, that means it has left the inside but it is not yet gone. This means that it is a stubborn problem. One in this position can be a successful troubleshooter, so that the world's problems will all be solved. There is benefit everywhere. But who is the officer? Who or what is the hawk, harmful entity? Can the stubborn problem be defined more clearly?

I have to say, Hebe, I've never quite gotten the drift of some of the moving lines of hexagram 40, but to me this configuration suggests that he is angry with the employer, the kind of employment, or the whole lifestyle he is currently living.

Doesn't hexagram 40 say that movement is the way to solve the problem or, alternatively, forgiveness is the only answer? I Ching is never going to make our decisions for us!

I would also say: Does he know where he's going? Or is he just going? To me, H49 with no moving lines has always signified that (1) I knew that something must change, but (2) I did not know any more than that.

Sounds like he just wants to be away, as Willowfox said in an earlier post, but beyond that, nothing much is clear to him.

He wants what is called 'freedom from' and is not clear about what he wants that freedom for?
 

rosada

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A couple of posters here have referred to astrology and hebe may be wondering what they are talking about.
The planet Uranus - the planet of freedom and divorce - is at the very last degrees of the sign Pisces just now. It will be going into freedom loving Aries shortly for about a month. It will stay there for about five weeks, giving folks an urge for rebirth and independence.
Then it will retrograde back into Pisces for about 8 months before it turns direct next spring and enters Aries for the next seven years.
The meaning of all of this is that the planets are indicating we are entering an era where we feel we have to live free or die. By "free" I mean live in a manner that is in alignment with one's inner truth rather than the outer world's rules and time schedules.
Even the most in tune of souls may find themselves blurting stuff out at the wrong moment to some degree this next month, but people who have been repressing their inner child are really going to have a hard time controlling the urge to break free now - and perhaps they should not. Trying to do what one "ought" when Uranus is involved can cause problems and accidents.
It may be your best approach is to be very sensible and rational, as has been suggested. Ask what his intentions are for the marriage. Sounds like this is a Trial Separation. Saturn will go into Libra in Sept. which is good for making clear conscious negotiations and agreements so perhaps that is when you should regroup and decide where do we go from here. The tricky thing is that with Uranus retrograding into Pisces there very well may be the desire to come back to that which is familiar but then it will go into Aries once again next spring for 7 years. If you don't really get to the core of why he needs to run off now and what you two want to commit to for the future you may find he again wants to take off.
I hope this bit of astrology talk isn't out of place. I just felt that since the influence of the stars had been mentioned there should be some clarification as to what that could mean so hebe didin't wander around feeling she was under some vague curse! And also I should add that of course this is just my interpretation of the planets. I am not trying to speak for the other posters.
-Rosada
 
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willowfox

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To really know what is going on, we would need to know his place and date of birth to have a look at what planets are "transiting" his natal ones, stirring up his need for action oblivious to how it affects others.
 
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hebe

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place and date of birth for my husband

Gosh, I am truly so thankful for all your input. I read the threads over and over to get more and more out of what you are all saying - and the astrology interpretation for me was very aware of you (oops can't get back to the thread to see who wrote it - Rosada I think? ) as I was not really getting anything meaningful from it until now. He was born in New Zealand in Invercarvill (South of the South Island) on 19th November 1960 ( I am 24 November 1962). I think he is generally unhappy with himself and has been for many years. He feels unfulfilled and working for the boss here who has a large estate but it is all 'pointless' as it is not useful or sustainable, but really only for the very privileged. My frustration in not finding my 'vocation' or using them in a job at all, are mirroring his frustration back to him. He has talked of going before and feels that he has talked about it for long enough to really test himself.

We get on really well - most people think we are peas in a pod.. but he refuses to commit to coming back as he doesn't know what either of us will encounter or change along the way and he definitely wants to go back to NZ. (I got very low there for 8 years and missed UK family and so do not want to go back to that situation at this point especially as I don't have a fulfilling career.) Hope I'm not going on too much here, just want to fill you in.

Ginnie - I need to get back to you about some of your interesting points but will have to do another thread so that I don't lose this one. New to this. Sometimes I feel ok about all of this - days like yesterday I feel absoloutly full of anxiety and unable to focus on anything without feeling overwhelmed. Hebe
 
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hebe

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Yes Ginnie - spot on with all those - he doesn't know where it will take him, what it is for, how he will do it - other than he wants to follow his intuition as he goes along & 'feel' alive. He says he's lost his passion for everything and wants to stir things up by putting himself on the edge. This confused me so much in terms of our relationship that I asked what do I need for my highest good in this relationship (thinking.. do I need to forget him, hold on, let go.. what?) and got 20: 1/4 to 25. & what does Paul need from the relationship.. 64: 1/4 to 41. (Interestingly 'what will resolve this conflict? got 20: 5/6 - 2. I don't know if I am confusing the issue by adding these other questions - please tell me if I am. I have done a reply before not using the quick reply, just now, but it hasn't appeared yet. Not sure of the difference... Hebe.
 

ace

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hmm ... 19 3.4 to 34. I might head on over to LISE's site to check out 19 3.4. for the missing oversight. LISE's interprets 19 as "Overseeing. Eminent - -expansion. Harvest - determination". Then, look at your quote above : "I think he is generally unhappy with himself and has been for many years. He feels unfulfilled and working for the boss here who has a large estate but it is all 'pointless' as it is not useful or sustainable, but really only for the very privileged".

I wonder if he is approaching or seeing his self, as in his true self. 34 may give the context to this awareness (e.g., rigidity or stuckness). Perhaps, his sweet nearing or being nice/compliance (19.3) and his losing sight of his Tao (19.4), has gotten himself caught in the fence (34). I think Meng (sniffle, sniffle) mentioned 19 as a drum roll ... perhaps the determined bike trip "home" is the drum roll to movement to get unstuck. Perhaps, your missing oversight ...

Your quote: " My frustration in not finding my 'vocation' or using them in a job at all, are mirroring his frustration back to him". Missing oversight ... sounds like Yi is nurturing two birds with one blanket with 19 3.4. to 34. LOL ... the context or backdrop of the reading is "I am stuck" (your opening line). Very "34" .
 
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willowfox

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what does Paul need from the relationship.. 64: 1/4 to 41.


I don't really think he is considering the relationship much these days as his mind is focused elsewhere and therefore if he has to let go then he will for the "supposed" greater good of all concerned.
 

willowfox

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Interestingly 'what will resolve this conflict? got 20: 5/6 - 2.


He has the conflict raging inside of him, as his single minded thoughts are all pushing him in only one direction, forward, to the exclusion of all else.

Therefore the lines suggests the need for him to examine his motives for wanting to go, as "to prove oneself" is a kind of vague excuse to head off to the hills. He needs to understand how his actions will affect you, because at the moment he is only thinking of himself and neglecting your future needs.

So, line 20.6 suggests the need for him free himself from this mad desire to run off, as what will it actually achieve at the end of the day, nothing. It will only leave a trail of hardship and sadness in its wake. Freedom starts within one's mind not on the open road, therefore if he felt he relationship constricting, then the road will not give him what he wants and that he needs to realize now, before he embarks on a wasted journey. What does he really want, obviously he doesn't know at the moment, and therefore if he cannot find the answer in England then he will never find the answer trolling across asia.

He needs guidance but he seems a difficult man to convince that its all in his mind. Only his own mind can set him free, not physical things but it seems he cannot tame his own beast within, therefore he will never find peace, doomed to searching for a dream but dreams are just that, dreams.

Tell him he will find peace and freedom only within himself.
 
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ginnie

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To really know what is going on, we would need to know his place and date of birth to have a look at what planets are "transiting" his natal ones, stirring up his need for action oblivious to how it affects others.

It's all very elucidating. Uranus = the need for action oblivious to how that action affects others. Uranus brings the shock of the new.

In the heavens above us, Uranus has been opposing Saturn over and over again for the past several years. Saturn = the structure of our lives, tradition, and the way things have always been. So, these huge planets have been having a tug of war in the heavens.

I thought this tug of war between Uranus and Saturn -- and other oppositions to, involving Pluto -- were occurring in the zodiac sign of Libra, Relationships, but I'm not an astrologer and someone who knows might clarify that.

I'm sure Hebe is not alone therefore and this must be happening all over the place, since this is the astrological climate in which we are all now living.

Thank you, Hebe, for having the courage to post, because in one way or another, this dynamic is affecting us all.
 

iesha

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Willowfox said everything.

I am with Willowfox here, you only find your freedom within yourself. Living the instant as it is your own, and not living dreams of life.

"Short distance is not in itself nearness. Nor is great distance remoteness.
What is nearness if it fails to come about despite the reduction of the longest distance to the shortest intervals? What is nearness if it is even repelled by the restless abolition of distance? What is neraness if, along with its failure to appear, remoteness also remains absent?" The Thing, by Heidegger.
 
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