If you had to create another chapter of the Yijing what would it be?

[sooo]

Hi sooo,



in my eyes you are right and wrong at the same time. No duality, no Dao. No Dao, no duality. Somewhere in the IC or Appenix you find an interisting sentence: "if you want to know the tree go back to the seed".
Discard time (now is the only time there is), discard desires, discard judging, discard ego... means: see the big/huge human.

In Hex.1 the big/huge human is at least mentioned twice if i remember correctly. There is where everything starts. Again: No duality, no Dao. No Dao, no duality. I really hope you do understand me.

Hi Lilly,

I don't oppose what you're saying. I've said similar things myself, here on this forum and over the last five or so decades. I try to say little regarding the Tao though; seems every word takes something away - those who speak do not know, kind of thing. The Tao that can be named (described) is not the Tao, kind of thing. But I've given it a go more than once, and I do have concepts regarding it. There are threads on this very topic in the archives, and I've certainly given lip service to that which can not be spoken.

A couple things I can say without proving I am a fool:

The quote I believe you refer to, attributed to Confucius: To know the seed; that is divine indeed - is quoted in Wilhelm 16.2 commentary. Seed and seeds are mentioned frequently throughout, perhaps the most significant being in 61, but here the form of an egg (or embryo): "An egg is hollow. The light-giving power must work to quicken it from outside, but there must be a germ of life within, if life is to be awakened. Far-reaching speculations can be linked with these ideas." Here it may be argued that, greater than the concept of one is the concept of zero. I would dare say that the Tao is most closely associated with this. "The purpose of a bowl is its emptiness."

The other is an apt statement on the paradox of oneness and duality, in Wilhelm's 52: "While Buddhism strives for rest through an ebbing away of all movement in nirvana, the Book of Changes holds that rest is merely a state of polarity that always posits movement as its complement."

To say duality exists is true. To say One exists is true. To say Zero exists is true. Some, myself included, would say that to consult with the Yi is to consult the One self. The difference between Freud's "self" and Jung's "self" also depicts the difference between the individual self and the One self. One does not negate the other, they are two aspects of the same, the duality of a whole, the whole of a duality. The whole beholds the individual; it is the nature of the individual to behold the whole. I once asked the Yi, why do you bother to avail yourself to mankind? Yi's answer was 13.

 

[sooo]

So, to try and bring this back to topic, if one is satisfied to spend their life meditating on the one, the whole, or the void or zero, that's their prerogative. Their life will be very short lived thereafter however, since life requires life to perpetuate ones own life. Sooner or later one must eat, and hopefully move, and walk, and talk to others, and listen to others, and fellowship with others, human and other sentient life forms. It is said that even rocks have consciousness. All have something to share and teach. The I Ching is a composite of the forms which fellowship. It's up to the individual if they wish to fellowship with it's symbols and metaphors, and apply them to their own individual life. If they disregard its intended symbolic language and numerical order, how can they fellowship? It would be akin to the Tower of Babel.

 

[anemos]

If one hopes to exist in a world without duality, they won't find it here. The entire premiss of the IC is based on duality, the entire system is based on a series of relationships between separate entities and energies....

I like that and see it in a similar way. Seems the word "duality" brings negative connotations, like talking about something rigid that its against the "change" concept but I see duality as the basis for the creation of the "field" of changes. Its like electricity and how the current moves, magnetic fields or in our body how the building blocks of our body work ... so many examples in nature.

 

[sooo]

There could be no nature without duality, there could be no relationship with anything or anyone, including with ones self without duality. The observer would have no observed to observe.

Where I differ from the often expressed idea that these duality-based relationships are the same as The Tao, or from the other side of the line, that the Tao represents the oneness of these dualities, is that my "concept" of Tao is more like the emptiness wherein these 'ten thousand things' may exist.

 

[sooo]

thus

The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.

Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.

Tao Tê Ching - chapter ll

 

[Lilly-La]

Coming home

Deleted my posting, words are simply not sufficient.

 

[Trojina]

No, i do not take any drugs, burn incent sticks or meditate all day long. I am a pretty simple teacher.

The kids i tought, tought me everything.

They didn't teach you to spell


(You spell it 'taught' not 'tought'.)



Sorry....I just couldn't resist

 

[sooo]

I am sure Lilly's English spelling is better than my German spelling since I can't spell or speak in German. I believe Hilary and some others here do though.

Lilly, the thrust of your point I understand, but your references to the Tao/Dao are not compatible with my own understanding. That's okay though, vive la différence. However, I suggest you read at least a couple of translations of the Dao De Jing, possibly several times, before attributing your concepts to the Dao.

While it seems most translate 13 as "fellowship with mankind", or "fellowship with others", which I think comes from the translation of Ren, which I think generally refers to the same species - mankind in our case - I don't limit the meaning or application to associating with just my own species. In fact, I have an easier time associating with dogs. Other animals too but dogs especially. It seems we understand one another intuitively. The only dogs I haven't "grokked" are those whose owners have infected them with their own neurotic or sociopathic behavior. It's been said that dogs naturally possess buddha-mind, and I'm in agreement. I also fellowship with water, air (wind), fire (light), mountains, fertile lakes, thunder, earth and heaven - the eight trigrams, which all fellowship with one another, constituting the 64 hexagrams of the Yijing.

 

[sooo]

words are simply not sufficient.

Now that's the closest to the Dao you've written thus far, imo.

 

[Lilly-La]

No mysterie in Dao

sooo,

I suggest you read at least a couple of translations of the Dao De Jing, possibly several times, before attributing your concepts to the Dao.

Well, i prefer the Zhuangzi over the Dao De Jing with regard to 'understanding' the IC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuangzi_(book)

Of course you can talk about the Dao but you can not name it. It is part of the "non-dual world" and words are not. My personal posting was a bit enthusiastic or even pathetic due to a sudden "wow insight" i suddenly had when reflecting on my work of the past 6 months. There is nothing holy or any mysterie in Dao to me. It simply is accepting /floating with "what is" right now in this very moment. Younger kids and dogs can be what they are right now /float with (in) this very moment.
That is the way i see it.

One question remains: why is the Buddha not looking like a dog?

 

[sooo]

The Dao De Jing and the Yijing are two entirely different works, which emphasizes the point I tried to make. There is no one way to look at the world, there is no one system which homogenizes with every other system. Every system is a system unto itself, or as you said, a concept. This thead is specifically about the Yijing, and whether adding a 65th hexagram or chapter is possible, or whether it is, so to speak, a closed or open system. My position is that it's a closed system, where there are 8 trigrams, forming (8x8) 64 hexagrams. Adding one or removing one is no longer the Yijing system, period. It may be translated and interpreted differently, but fundamentally there are always 64 chapters or hexagrams. People commonly throw the Dao into the Yijing as though it is a natural philosophical ingredient of the Yijing, but it ain't necessarily so, particularly not used the way it most often is. We then have the Dao of this and the Dao of that, the Dao of me and the Dao of you, we have the Dao being used as synonymous with change, with various hexagrams (like 61 and 25); and though they do not necessarily negate one another, they are not the same in philosophy or concept. Unless we are being playful, or speaking of a metaphor in general, which may be found in several sources, then we ought to be careful not to confuse or bastardize one system with another. This thread is specifically a discussion about the Yijing. Perhaps another thread discussing the Dao may help to further conversation of the Dao, but the Dao has nothing to do with whether or not the Yijing is a closed system, or whether it makes sense to add an additional hexagram, or what that extra appendage, in good humor, might be named.

A discussion of duality is a topic unto itself. I've no problem with duality, ego, or the observer and the observed. I also have no difficulty with the concept of all as one, nor the concept of emptiness and fullness. One does not negate the other, as I've already expressed. But I fail to understand how these things in any way belong in a discussion about the Yijing being an open or closed system. Or at least I've yet to hear a sound argument as to why they would.

It sounds to me, Lilly, that either you are not knowledgeable or experienced with the Yijing in a practical manner, or that you hold it somehow in contempt, since you were quick to tell me that the answer I look for is not there. I still don't know how you could know what I look for. I didn't just fall off a turnip truck into a copy of Wilhelm's I Ching. I've studied world religions and have invested in personal experience with a few, I'm familiar with ideas of non-duality, as I am of ideas of duality, as well as the Dao concept. My view of morality has more to do with natural law than human rules, which is an area I prefer to regard in terms of ethics. I see the Yi referring to both natural law and human ethics. Yes, they are concepts and constructs, specially a construct of the I Ching, which is the system discussed in this thread.

A good philosophical debate is good, particularly if it's focused, and a person's views are consistent enough to debate them. This is where The Yijing can be helpful, as in 52.5 - 53.

Buddha consciousness is another concept again, and though it isn't the subject of this thread, I'd be happy to discuss how a dog can possess buddha consciousness without looking like Siddhārtha Gautama, but let's do that in another thread. Perhaps there we can also discuss how the Dalai Lamas are believed to be manifestations of Avalokiteshvara or Chenrezig.

 

[Lilly-La]

sooo,

i do agree on many, many points with you. To me the Yi is complete as it is too.

As i said in my previous post, reflecting on my work i got a bit hyper and expressed something where words actually are not sufficient...

Knowing the IC for about 20 years i used it as oracle at the beginning, asked the same questions as most users of the "Shared Readings" Forum do. I always felt there is more to the book but could not figure it out. At one point using it as oracle seemed suddenly silly to me. Doesn´t it produce more and even obscure problems when throwing coins/stalks and reading texts I did not fully understand, which concept i could not comprehend on.

From my work i know how strong the desire of adults is to produce more and more and more problems. Thinking/judging and time are the ingrediences to alot of craziness i observe on a daily basis. Especially younger kids can be rooted in themselves, at least for a certain time. Adults are always nervous. They can not create space and time to let things develop. They live in a dual world of constant judging, an ego world where each kid has to be already born as a professor. Crazy.

I am familiar with some texts on Daoism, the Daodejing, the Zhuangzi... i linked them (or the underlying concept/ philosophy) to my real world observations and came to the conclusion you can either dive into the dual world the IC presents and create more and more thinking/problems (diving into the lines, invert Hex´s, look up the opposites etc..) or let things take their course (as one can observe in nature). I am rather interested in the images of the Hex.´s than in the 'oracle'.

Rarely i have the pleasure talking to someone having some deeper insights to the symbols of the IC like it is f. e. presented in Book XI, chapter I or II of the Zhuangi (speech of Laotzi about the heart of people.). To me this links to the Hex. 29 (Abyss) which is more than "there have been floods in ancient times and water represents danger".

Sorry if i gave the impression i would know more about 'dao etc..' than you ... i certainly do not and i am not ego-less or know any higher truth. For sure i know, by splitting our world in more and more dualities does not solve any problems. In fact it creates even more and more and more and more and more ...

If i would add another Hex./image to the IC than perhaps one called EXIT. Perhaps that is already in 'Mountain' .

I didn't just fall off a turnip truck into a copy of Wilhelm's I Ching.

Me neither. all the best... .

 

[sooo]

:bows:

 

[sooo]

Lilly, may I say you possess a kind and tolerant nature, which speaks more than words can say.

When I am engaged with nature, whether on a walk, horseback or even a nice drive through the mountains or desert, there is no me and thou. There is just this. But when my mind becomes active (monkey mind?), me and thou arises everywhere. This happens when I lie awake in bed, or even when I dream, or when I think beyond "this". This frontal lobe surely is a mixed blessing in this respect.

I too love to contemplate the Yi's images, and often will work it backwards; rather than visualizing the images from the trigrams, visualizing the trigrams from what I observe. But it isn't thinking so much but more experiencing them. The duality isn't so dual or complex, it's all rather natural, and I am what I behold. Me and thou just is this.

Interesting that you mention the Dao aspect within 29, and I do agree, that the nature of water is very close to the nature of the Dao, as I experience it.

I can remember so clearly, my old friend and I looking at one another during our many early mescaline journeys, and saying in unison, and in awe - there are no words. There really aren't. Not at that level of consciousness. I suppose the consciousness of Yi must grow weary with our questions, particularly the ones which we know the answers to but just need to hear/read it again, have it affirmed again. Oy-yoiyoi. I think a large degree of those questions arise from insecurity.

When I tossed my first copy of Wilhelm into the trash after tearing the pages out in frustration, after underlining and highlighting nearly every sentence in it as a revelation, it was a great relief. Yet what followed some two years later was another dualistic philosophy in the form of a religion. And through the proceeding 20 years, I made mental comparative notes between the religious theology and the I Ching, until reaching the point of dissolution of that chapter. When the IC was reintroduced to me after that, it was very different. It was a reflection of those elements within myself, myself within those elements, not me and thou. And myself was not myself only but a reflection of all this. Like looking into water, my ripply reflection on the surface and rocks on the bottom, with water running between them. The three are one. That is why when this body has reached completion, the ashes will mingle within the deep ocean; an appropriate resting place for a sailor. Until then, it is much the same, being swept along by the river of life until it reaches the sea, that great water. Only rather than crossing it, I shall be it.

Angenehme Reise

 

[Lilly-La]

soo,

thank you for sharing your 'little' stories. You must be a writer (or you have great talent). Your text are not just words....
i see a younger guy taking mescaline (ohlala), a religious guy and an older guy walkin/riding through nature contemplating about life and enjoying wind and water....
I hope you will not cross the river that soon but write some more stories pls some more stories

Angenehme Reise

"Not yet, not yet, dear friend!" (Quote from Sh.)

have a nice evening, lilly

PS btw Hex. 44 is not a bitch . it refers to: "The wise man does not go towards and not after things." (my Ger -> Eng translation thus not the best )