In-depth dream course

[hilary]

Dr Scott Sparrow has just posted this to his blog:

DreamStar Training Now Set Up in Moodle

I have been working for some time at setting up a comprehensive training program in Moodle, which is a learning management system used by countless universities. I have installed Moodle as a separate partition on my website, and will hereafter host all of my courses. The training program consists of two options--one leading to a Certificate of Dream Study, and another which is almost the same (except for the omission of a practicum) for students who want CEUs only. The program is almost complete, with only the quizzes yet to be constructed. However, the course ready for review if you'd like to see it at http://dreamanalysistraining.com/moodle2/.

When you get to the home page, just click on a course title, and then use "guest123" as your password. You can then open all of the modules and see the approach I'm taking to the DreamStar training.

The good new is that the Certificate of Dream Study training will only cost $395 now. The CEU-only version (37 CEUs) will cost $195, and can be upgraded later by simply paying the difference.


Scott

The certification may cost $400, but access to the course materials is free with the guest123 password. I've only started downloading, not yet reading, but it looks really substantial.

 

[stonehold]

Thank you, Hilary. Unfortunately, I may not be able to afford it right now, but it seems right up my alley. I have found much diversity in dream types and value much of what comes to me in my sleeping hours. I even had a period of a few months of lucid dreaming. I'll keep my eyes on this and find if it'll be offered again at a time I can afford it. :bows:

 

[hilary]

Ah... so access isn't free any more? Bother...

 

[meng]

I can't help wondering, of what use a DreamStar Certificate of Dream Study could serve. Maybe it's some people's dream to be a certified. I'm not certified, but I am nuts, as least if held to the light of scrutiny from our prevailing mores. As a typical western medical qualification, it means absolutely nothing. But, but, I have a certificate, a DreamStar certificate!

Women, and some men, seem to always be seeking the next guru, the right meditation instructor, the right instructors and 'enlightened' leaders, and they obviously are prepared to be pay handsomely for it.

Color me skeptical. It took years to grasp some of Jung's findings on dream analysis, and he's currently the most dismissed authority on dreams and modern psychology. Campbell too could unravel symbols like a Persian rug. but they're old school sources and not currently selling courses, but their works are readily still available. The usual response I've gotten from modern psychotherapists on the subject is always the same, going something like: With what we are learning about neuroscience, the ideas of Freud and Jung (note how they're indissolubly united) are outdated and too speculative to be incorporated into our modern methodologies. This has been followed by an outburst of anger and hostility by the modern expert, for making things too complicated, and they'll typically leave in a hurry. What's funny is that the Jehovah's Witnesses follow the same protocol.

 

[hilary]

Yes, this is the kind of thing that means I never invented a Clarity I Ching Certificate to go with the course. I'd feel too silly for words.

Mind you... having information freely available is not at all the same thing as learning and being able to use it. Teachers, courses, exercises, community, carefully-thought-out structure to build towards competence... all useful. (Except for the dedicated auto-didact.)

 

[anemos]

The usual response I've gotten from modern psychotherapists on the subject is always the same, going something like: With what we are learning about neuroscience, the ideas of Freud and Jung (note how they're indissolubly united) are outdated and too speculative to be incorporated into our modern methodologies. This has been followed by an outburst of anger and hostility by the modern expert, for making things too complicated, and they'll typically leave in a hurry. What's funny is that the Jehovah's Witnesses follow the same protocol.

... and then they talk about the anima appearing at their client's dream... I have experience that. The dreamer- a male- went to a hospital and aske a plastic surgury to change his face to a woman's one but when he wake up after the surgery his face was the same. disapointed calls the doctors were they explained to him that they couldn't change his face but put another one in the back of his head, so he had a male's and female's face ... Jungian nonsense

I don't see that neuroscience and biology and quantum mechanics or some other disciplines talk about something very very different. Probably use different words but , although not equipped to talk in depth about it , I could see some similarities. As for psychoanalysis , in general, it appears to be a return now that there are more tools available to test some things.

 

[stonehold]

Well, I gathered that parts were free, such as the syllabus, but was unable to locate downloadable material. The password, 'guest123' still works. I'll look at it more this afternoon, though.

The part that interested most was the lucid dreaming sections. One time when my dream turned lucid I decided to walk off the dream and do some exploring. I came to an older apartment complex, the type with four long, two-story buildings arranged in a rectangle with an inner courtyard. The buildings were in disrepair, crabb-grass growing long from cracks in the side walk. I walked to the end of one of the builings and was shocked: in the middle of this ghetto-ish arena, an inticately carved and gleaming Buhdist Temple was attached, actually part of the apartment building. I didn't know it was a Budhist temple at the time, but a year later I found myself at a budhist meditation center here. I found that entire experience sublimely enlightening, that within my unconscious mind was this little area just set aside for a purpose without me even knowing it, not consciously, at least.

Edit: I just rechecked the DreamStar Institute, and the course material is still downloadable. Before I download anything I plan to at least email Dr. Sparrow first.

 

[meng]

I went to a well known neurologist for pain management, who was also a shooting buddy, taking courses together and such, so we were well acquainted. He told me in confidence, that "we" (neurologists) don't know very much about the science of neurology. We just know more than most people, which is practically nothing.

Then we have therapists, psychologists and even psychiatrists, looking down their noses at such old architecture, such as the study of dreams and their symbols, through some spaced out fringe mystic, named Jung; knowing next to nothing about neuroscience but proclaiming "that with what we now know through neurology, etc.etc...there's no need to resort to mysticism." Then they go back to their bleach white check-off lists and asking questions about feelings. Neurology at its finest.

neurology (Medicine) the study of the anatomy, physiology, and diseases of the nervous system

phys·i·ol·o·gy The biological study of the functions of living organisms and their parts.

So the next time you want to ask the Yi something, see a neurologist.

Meaning no disrespect to Scott or his work, just paying due respect to Jung and his hands-on experience and works, in the area of understanding our universe through our dreams.

 

[stonehold]

And from my expirience, dreams are just the tip. Jung was the father of psychoanalysis. Yes, Freud contributed to the field, a few morsels of insight here and there. But Jung--collective unconsciousness, achetypal theory, the process of individuation, syncronicity, dissolution of the ego--that man reigned king. And then, in his golden years, with allll these psycological tools in his belt, what does he do? Psyhoanylises God! And not just any old Deity, no, he picks apart Yahweh. I can understand why 'Answer to Job' was controversial and Jung had to know it would be: most folk do not like the object of their faith picked apart. As for me, that's my favorite work of his. Wow, you gotta have cahones forge out of solid iron to do something like that! I wonder if it's a form of group dynamics, precisely, jealousy, that is the driving force behind neurologists discounting Jung so quickly. That since his passing, no one has even come close to contributiing the body of work that he did. Jung was not a mystic--he used the six steps of the scientific method, he just applied them to existential matters. Honestly, I wish more people would.

 

[anemos]

I went to a well known neurologist for pain management, who was also a shooting buddy, taking courses together and such, so we were well acquainted. He told me in confidence, that "we" (neurologists) don't know very much about the science of neurology. We just know more than most people, which is practically nothing.

respect to that doc ! Its the truth isn't it ?

when we talk about :"Psychology , the science of.... " makes "sense" why some are excluded . Yet we talk about psychology without a psyche, imo.

no matter what theorists say, people, for some reasons, find the compensating nature of dreams to be true.

I can understand why 'Answer to Job' was controversial and Jung had to know it would be: most folk do not like the object of their faith picked apart. .

haven't read it yet but i have been told its one of his masterpieces.
About the resistance , I recall he said/wrote he experienced that from the very first beginning.

 

[meng]

Yet we talk about psychology without a psyche

chuckle

haven't read it yet but i have been told its one of his masterpieces.
About the resistance , I recall he said/wrote he experienced that from the very first beginning.

The Book of Job is a great study. I don't recall reading Jung's entire take on it, just very good commentaries, and the always present Jungian perspective.

I don't think Jung ever intended that the terms he coined should be the focus of his thoughts, only references to them, ie archetypes, anima/animus, etc. Each idea has greater potential when actualized within an individual, and within a collective too.

 

[meng]

 

[anemos]

from the little i have read , that my impression too. Otherwise he would contradicted himself.

very synch image/quote. smiling because lately contemplating whether or not I should cross the threshold of a door opened out of nowhere. The feeling is the same as the last scene of Truman's show. The door opens and the only one can see is darkness.. will avoid to say the word archetypal

 

[meng]

Ok, I'll say it: that's an archetype, expressed in Campbell's Hero's Journey - leaving the establishment complex and going out the gate, even as the Buddha sneaked out of the ideal world his powerful father had arranged for him within the palace gate, so that he would stay and become his father's predecessor, rather than become a monk, as had been foretold. It was outside the royal courtyard that the Buddha learned the not so pretty facts of life, and its inevitable death. He never would have attained full enlightenment within the walls of his authority, even after he was king. He had to become his own authority, and overcome himself.

 

[stonehold]

Crossing of the First Threshold...'Hero with a Thousand Faces' is one of my formative texts. I've found this 'teacher' that reveals the door is often not a person--it's the achetype of 'teacher.' For example, I was in an abusive marriage. It carried on to the point where I attempted to end my life. When I finally came to in the ICU, I realised that so many of the things I thought were important were, in fact, the very things that were killing my spirit. Without that particular aspect of 'teacher' I would not have begun to realise my own True potential and begun walking in a spiritual Path that made sense to me. And meng, thumbs up for saying it. ;-)

 

[anemos]

To me, Buddha's story, seems an elegant summary of his teaching. He had to taste the three poisons ( ignorance, desire/attachement, aversion) to awake. Its again the "poison/medicine) thing. Those three "approaches" in some motivation theories are called motivator. I don't see it as a conflicting idea although it appears to be at a first glance... because of the underlining transformative trait. the duality of any concept (?)

Buddha had to give up... this is how I see his enlightenment ( don't like this word, lol)- give up . And dreams act in that way , imo. Dissolution comes through "illusions" as some describe dreams. And that's the magic of myths too. Because it grasp you, and we live it. Its not knowledge.. it becomes experience. And that's the difference between the teacher and the student... the hero that comes out of his world to another , new one and the old wise man who can be be anyone or anything , as stonehold said too.

 

[meng]

Crossing of the First Threshold...'Hero with a Thousand Faces' is one of my formative texts. I've found this 'teacher' that reveals the door is often not a person--it's the achetype of 'teacher.' For example, I was in an abusive marriage. It carried on to the point where I attempted to end my life. When I finally came to in the ICU, I realised that so many of the things I thought were important were, in fact, the very things that were killing my spirit. Without that particular aspect of 'teacher' I would not have begun to realise my own True potential and begun walking in a spiritual Path that made sense to me. And meng, thumbs up for saying it. ;-)

Man, can I ever relate to your story/experience, stonehold. The most poignant lesson I walked away with was that it's not enough to do the right thing, unless you are doing them for the right reasons. That which I called right, I was actually doing for the wrong reasons. Rather than being upright and brave, I had caved to the will of others, and doing what was expected of me: the right thing. It cost me everything to correct, everything but my soul, and I came close to destroying it too.

These experiences may not be dreams in the usual sense, but life unfolds unexpectedly, like a dream. I accept the idea that dreams are intended to more or less work off the excesses of the day. With the benefits of living in (at least) two worlds; yeah, the yin and the yang (another term that's a penny wearing thin), we spin. If both worlds are not in balance, our life wobbles, and could roll over and die, which it'll do eventually anyhow. But this bardo still offers lessons, and I sit beneath the tree of still uneaten fruit, dreaming.

With the incoming tide comes more,
much more, than the fish I was fishing for.

 

[rodaki]

But this bardo still offers lessons, and I sit beneath the tree of still uneaten fruit, dreaming.

beautifully said

don't let me disrupt your conversation, I'm simply enjoying the thread

 

[anemos]

the visual of the tide, as soon as read it, took the image of a mandala or a sand painting - those that are open to the east. contained yet open to receive..not fixed - not final . In my mind could see a fisherman in a gulf - a womb like gulf , a vessel.

like our personal myths/ dreams nourish and been nurtured by the collective ones.

Refreshing !!

 

[stonehold]

And then, some dreams are more than washing the day away. I belive you can feel them after awakening, or at least I can. They're vivid, powerful--an essence beyond the Self can be felt. Here's a recent example: after I did my last I Chnng reading, I folded the parchment into a square, seald it with wasx and my Eye of Thoth seal and placed it upon my altar. That night a dream came to me. It was simple, but vivid and powerful. I felt not alone, a Prescence just behind my left shoulder. Before me was my altar. I was looking down upon it, sort of zoomed in because I could only see the folded parchment against the altar cloth. The wax seal was gone. It wasn't broken, just no longer there, like a faded memory because I could see the outline of the seal, some residue left on the paper. The paper itself was lightly unfolded. I woke up then and the meaning was clear and profound: the gods were watching. Neitzche said that if you stare long enough into the Abyss the Abyss looks back into you. He was right, but I think he didn't follow that thought-process all the way through. If you stare long enough into the Divine, that which is Divine looks back into you.

 

[meng]

The divine is the abyss. I think the faces and traces of divinity seem to favor danger. Why else have they wrung us with such fate? It serves to frighten away the not-yet-ready, and it keeps the dragons fed, with those who think they are. To be consumed by divinity is an honor.

 

[stonehold]

I think we're getting to the 'define this' part. For me--

Abyss=An emptiness, a vacuumesque, feeling in your kua, or 'the seat of the soul', positioned just below the stomach. A number of years ago my wife died. Between the abuse of our marriage and her successfully 'opting out' I was completely lost. No matter how much I drank or drugs I did that hole in my gut stayed for almost a decade (I'm sober now, btw). That was me staring into the Abyss, and I felt no Divinity whatsover from it. It was cold, metallic, unending.

Void=Abscence of all sensory simuli and thought. There have been a few times during meditation when I reached a state of no-thing. Time couldn't be quatified. Each time, withourt fail, I experienced something beyond words, almost fractal.

So, to me, at least, 'Abyss' is the antithesis of divinity, while 'Void' is the threshold to It.

"Take the worlds most beautiful vase--it is the empty space within that makes it functional." - Lao Tzu

btw, I'm really digging this thread and the exisistential banter coming from it

 

[anemos]

it was comforting to me to come across to deities that could be destroyers and creators. It is that duality I spoke of before too.

I asked Yi " what dreams are ?" 41.1.2 >23

 

[meng]

I guess it depends on ones view of the divine. From a Hindu perspective, there is nothing which is not divine, including cows, but also images intended to terrify, as well as to arouse sexually. Those are considered antitheses of divinity to today’s western culture, who are limited strictly to the concept of good and evil, and their deity figures reflect that in their stories and art which were born of those perceptions and beliefs. Yet, technically, even Satan is considered a divine being.

Tibetan Buddhism depicts terrifying images of angry gods, which appear to the departed through their Bardo experience, to determine their fate according to the traveler’s disposition toward them. Likewise, the traveler is also tested through images of benevolent deities, which seduce one to reenter the karmic wheel of earthly life, which is away from the goal of self-realization and Nirvana.

Dragons too are considered divine creatures, and they dwell in the abyss.

Early Central American cultures, such as the Aztecs, had similarly frightening divine images, which they revered. Human sacrifices were regularly performed, with ghastly dramatic elements, such as the decapitated human’s head rolling and bouncing down the long temple stairway from the figurative heaven; the priests performing the bloody sacrifices to the divine, and even the one sacrificed was considered to himself become divinity. As alluded to earlier, it was considered the highest honor to be consumed by the gods.

The story of Christ is one of hardship, disbelief, and eventual self-sacrifice for the sake of humanity. Satan himself (also divine) tempted Christ by trying to arouse his senses and hunger of the physical body, a similar role to Kali, a divine mother who wore a girdle of human skulls as her trophies.

What’s the first thing people usually exclaim, even atheists, when they are suddenly faced with terror? “Oh, my God! Shock comes: to the initiated it's more like Uh Oh! Laughing words: Ha Ha!

You will fall sick, experience pain, and encounter many adverse circumstances. At such times do not think, ‘Although I am practicing the Dharma, I have nothing but trouble. The Dharma cannot be so great. I have followed a teacher and done so much practice, and yet hard times still befall me.’ Such thoughts are wrong views. You should realize that through the blessing and power of the practice, by experiencing sickness and other difficulties now, you are purifying and ridding yourself of negative actions…. By purifying them while you have the chance, you will later go from bliss to bliss. So do not think, ‘I don’t deserve this illness, these obstacles, these negative influences.’ Experience your difficulties as blessings…when you do experience such difficulties, you should be very happy and avoid having adverse thoughts like, ‘Why are such terrible things happening to me.’

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

 

[stonehold]

it was comforting to me to come across to deities that could be destroyers and creators. It is that duality I spoke of before too.

I asked Yi " what dreams are ?" 41.1.2 >23

I need to start packing for an overnight, but will bring my text with me so as to look that up. Thanks anemos!

 

[meng]

I asked Yi " what dreams are ?" 41.1.2 >23

Dreams reduce, as in reduction used cooking terms, thickening by stripping the moisture. Dreams are a Purée of your day, or any period of time and change, including major dreams during major life changes: crossroad dreams.

 

[stonehold]

it was comforting to me to come across to deities that could be destroyers and creators. It is that duality I spoke of before too.

I asked Yi " what dreams are ?" 41.1.2 >23

(from the Karcher translation)
Initial nine:
Climaxing affairs, swiftly going.
Without fault.
Discussing Diminishing it.

Nine at second:
Advantageous trial. Harvesting.
Chastising: pitfall.
Nowhere Diminishing, augmenting it.

23 - Stripping
Stripping, not advantageous to have a direction to go.

So, I read this that in relation to the dreamer the experience [the dream] is more likely to be accurately analysed through their own perceptions. If some image or symbol is not immediately recognizable don't dismiss it--it'll become clear in it's own time. Anything we can learn from our dreams, be it 'dark' or 'light', will, if looked at honestly, only serve to augment the dreamer and the world around him/her.
In respect to 23 - Stripping, don't assign personal expectations on what should or shouldn't be. Part of a dreams purpose is to strip away the 'shells' put around our spirit, created either by ourselves or the world around us. If we allow this process of stripping to occur, our inner spirit will become freer and us closer to an alignment with Divinity, whatever form it may choose.

 

[anemos]

I like a lot your takes !

I'm still immersed in my thoughts and some very strong dreams I had lately and feels like dreams come from a very 23 place . During our waking life somehow do not process in depth some things . 41.1 has a element of busyness and that some things may remain undone in some ways while 41.2 highlights the necessity to re-examine elements of our life and return to a more stable position- nourish ourselves.

41 and 23 , the ways i see them in this reading, have a strong sense of flow. What is above nourish what it bellow and vice versa. Can't not help but notice the compensating and the sacrifice element in both hexes.

 

[meng]

I'm still immersed in my thoughts and some very strong dreams I had lately and feels like dreams come from a very 23 place . During our waking life somehow do not process in depth some things . 41.1 has a element of busyness and that some things may remain undone in some ways while 41.2 highlights the necessity to re-examine elements of our life and return to a more stable position- nourish ourselves.

Dreams coming from a 23 place, I like that. Uncovering what's beneath the surface; the subconscious illustrating.

I've noticed 41.1 having unsettling notes. Business, yes. It's like having a great day on the job, finishing early, and then feeling it's okay to leave, but if you do, others will resent you or think you're slacking. So to stay or leave becomes a more sensitive matter.

Maybe there's a particular dream where you feel you must meet approval from others by working late, even after your job is done?

 

[anemos]

I'm shamelessly slacking . There is no such a thing as finish early due to specific conditions yet the allocation of time spend has change... its a ROI thing and a very ROI-related dream . Sometime that busyness becomes so automatic that one can't think of the obvious and then a h23 slap comes and you wake up

its funny but yesterday something really interesting happened. In my dreams was trying to figure out how to arrange some things because at this point of time I have reach the bottleneck. I wake up because of the phone . It was a kind of friend we know little each other who thought it was ok to call at 2:30 am to share a personal issue i.e do a content-context and etc etc analysis of a msm she received from a man she is interest in. I was Huuuuuhhhhh ??? In terms of approval -although sleepy- I couldn't approve myself sitting and hearing her so I hang down the phone. Its funny because before i retired I was thinking the interpretation I posted earlier and then that happened.

some saying that dreaming helps learning.... sometimes it does