International Move: 15.3.6 -> 23. Help?

[elizabeth]

I have been living abroad for nearly 3 years and various life events recently are making me wonder if it is time to end my sojourn here. So I asked the Yi ching to show me a picture of my emotional life if I remain in this foreign country for the next 3 years (which was my original plan). I received Hex 15 Modesty, with changing lines 3 and 6, and then Hex 23 splitting apart. The splitting apart is what worries me. Am I to focus on the lines only in hex 15, or on Hex 23? Is it saying that eventually (if I stick it out another 3 yrs) I myself will split apart? Or is this a metaphor for something else?

I did read several other threads on 23 hoping to gain more insight but I can’t quite peg this one. I am afraid of “staying too long” because of what it might do to me emotionally and this in part prompted me to ask. (I happen to have an innate capacity to stay too long in bad situations, be they work or relationship, etc, and I don’t want to do that again). I was hoping to find a clue as to staying/leaving/how long...

Appreciation in advance for any replies.

-Elizabeth

++++++
Ps. Here are the details:

15. Ch'ien / Modesty with changing lines 3 and 6.

above K'un The Receptive, Earth
below Kên Keeping Still, Mountain

The Judgement: Modesty creates success.
The superior man carries things through. (or the superior belief/ethic/way of life)

The Image: Within the earth, a mountain:
The image of Modesty.
Thus the superior man (or a belief or ethic or way of living) reduces that which is too much,
And augments that which is too little.
He weighs things and makes them equal.

Change in the third place means:
A superior man (or a belief or ethic or way of living) of modesty and merit
Carries things to conclusion.
Good fortune.

Change at the top means:
Modesty that comes to expression.
It is favorable to set armies marching
To chastise one's own city and one's country

23. Po / Splitting Apart
above Kên Keeping Still, Mountain
below K'un The Receptive, Earth

The Judgement
Splitting Apart. It does not further one
To go anywhere.

The Image
The mountain rests upon the earth:
The image of Splitting Apart.
Thus those above can insure their position
Only by giving generously to those below.

 

[rosada]

Hi Elizabeth,
I think the splitting apart is refering to your inner self being split between staying where you are and the impulse for traveling on. Perhaps trying to project your commitment 3 years into the future is too much to ask and a more "modest" projection would be give you a more useful answer?
Trying to come up with questions that might yield more food for thought..."Where am I in my stay here?" (like, am I at the beginning, middle, end?), "What do I need to complete, accomplish, before leaving?", "How will I know, what will be a sign, that it is best for me to leave?" "What opportunity should I watch for now that tells me where to go from here?"
As 23 talks about "Giving generously to those below" in order to shore up your own situation, I suggest you do that literally. Get more into where you are right now. Give money to the street people. Get the phone numbers of friends you wouldn't want to lose touch with. By doing this you'll either awaken a renewed enthusiasm for your current position, or you'll find you really have done all you can do there and then with this feeling of comfort about your decision to leave, you will probably more easily spot what new doors are opening wide.

 

[dobro p]

"So I asked the Yi ching to show me a picture of my emotional life if I remain in this foreign country for the next 3 years (which was my original plan). I received Hex 15 Modesty, with changing lines 3 and 6."

I don't render 23 as 'splitting apart', I render it as 'stripping away', the way you strip flesh off the skeleton of a fish, or the way you strip paint off something - for me it has the meaning of 'stripping away the outer layer(s) in order to lay bare what's underneath. So, I'd read what you drew as: 'In your emotional life, the picture is one of 'humbling and stripping away'. When I consider this, it seems to me that this same meaning might translate as 'emotionally, you'll be humbled and stripped away down to the core of what you are.' If that's correct, then it sounds like a pretty unpleasant experience, and one that you might want to consider avoiding. But I'm in no position to know these things, cuz there's always a possibility that the humbling and stripping away emotionally might be a really useful learning experience for you. But perhaps there are less painful ways for you to learn what you need to learn?

 

[willowfox]

Hi Eliabeth,

Hex 15.3 says for you to keep on working in a quiet and humble fashion. Remain modest, devote yourself to your work, do not pause or despair when things get difficult, finish the job.
Hex 15.6 says mobilize yourself and get to grips with your problem, sort it out, wake up, engage in self discipline, learn self control. Stir yourself, do not blame others for your problems, do not be self pitying it will get you absolutely nowhere.To do battle with the outside world you must first do battle with your inner world of emotions, once they are defeated life will become very pleasant. Give generously of your time, help and advice to others and then you will find out who your true friends are and gain their support.

Hex 23 says when things are at their worst they can only get better. This is not a time to go anywhere. Your emotions are causing all your problems and therefore, you are thinking too much, calm down, forget the past otherwise you will become ill both mentally and physically. Strip away, peel away old ideas and habits that are now obsolete and then your pain and torment will vanish. Be still and patient, keep a low profile, you are undergoing emotional changes in your life. The old cycle of your life has ended and a new cycle has begun, so prepare for the future and enjoy it.

 

[dobro p]

Elizabeth -

"The splitting apart is what worries me. Am I to focus on the lines only in hex 15, or on Hex 23?"

Okay, so now you have two readings, the one Willfox did and the one I did. (I actually like Willowfox's better, coming after mine, anyway.) So, go back to your question. When you go back to your question, which reading rings more true for you?

Cuz Willowfox outlined the meanings of the individual active lines in your draw, like you were asking about - 15.3 and 15.6. - they're great lines, aren't they? I didn't do that, I just looked at two words - 'humbling' and 'stripping away' (well, I guess that's three words technicially, but you know what I mean) and tried to see a relation to the situation you described in your question. So again, which one rings more true for you? That's the one for you. Or a move in the direction of the one for you.

 

[elizabeth]

Well I am, if anything, meek and extremely modest by nature. I have been further humbled (read: yes, beaten up emotionally) in some ways by this experience living abroad (shoulda chosen Paris or Rome ). It hasn’t been easy. So my initial thought is that both your interpretation, dobro, and yours, willowfox, apply. Willowfox takes the kinder/gentler/more positive note which I would be happy to follow, but I’m not positive if it is my answer, and I want to do what is best long term, not only short term. Likewise, I cannot imagine I would need further humbling or stripping away emotionally and in fact I’m afraid of more of this.

On the other hand, willowfox’s interpretation suggests, by deduction, that moving back now might not be the answer to the emotional stripping away either, and I must consider this possibility. Namely that if there is a problem, it may or may not be solved by me returning to my native land. In other words, if I have doubts about staying, maybe changing something here can solve the problem rather than just moving back again. But what if it isn't?

The confusion lies in the apparent contradiction between the two lines. Based on what both of you have interpreted, it seems that:
15.3 saying keep your nose to the grindstone, wait it out, keep going (implication: stay put, keep doing what you’re doing, don’t change paths now).
And 15.6 saying face the problem (what *is* the problem??) which means: activate, motivate, motorvate and, generally, move.
The question is: which do I do? Its almost like the Yi is mirroring my thoughts, which isn’t quite helpful… :-S

Next, the point about 23 saying when things are at their worst they can only get better. (by the way, things can in fact stay bad for a long period of time (!!!), IMHO)
But I take this to mean that when I’m ready to move back to my home country, it will be a “good only” move, precisely because I’m looking forward to and ready for the change (as I was for the change in moving away). So the question isn’t ‘would that work’ – I could make it “work out”, human beings are endlessly adaptable – but when is the time right to do so?

Also, to make things better, change is implied in my opinion…and the change in question is the move, so…

Finally, the idea of stripping away old ideas and habits – this is one of interest. What are they, which are the ones that need to be disposed of?

Maybe the idea that I should stay needs to be disposed of? Or maybe the idea that I have to return at some point should be? At a more granular level I can’t imagine what the old habits/beliefs are. I know we’re all responsible for our own happiness..the key is figuring out how to do it! In sum: i'm still having trouble knowing what is right for me.

 

[autumn]

Elizabeth,
Hex 15 isn't so much about being shy, or humble. LiSe calls 15, "Give and Take". Bradford Hatcher calls 15, "Authenticity". I think of 15 as balancing, both in relationship to the self and others.
Line 3, exploring your self-worth. (Transitional Hex 2)
Line 6, setting appropriate boundaries and taking responsibility (Transitional Hex 52)

Hex 23 is about the inside of things. Deconstruction of all forms. Stripping away the exterior, which is often painful. Taking down; Removing; Bradford Hatcher calls it Decomposing.

Balancing your emotional life and relationships through exploration of your self-worth and boundaries, within a context of inner searching, uncovering pain. I see this as a time of isolation for you, to explore your pain and the inner structures that gave rise to the narrative life theme of Isolation you've expressed. Keep in mind, moving or not moving may have no effect on going through this process. To me, it appears to be an intense, but positive, part of your self-transformation.

 

[willowfox]

Hi Elizabeth,

Well, you are quite right things can stay bad and they probably will until you can get a handle on the situation. You feel that your world is falling apart, deteriorating, is the cause due to external sources, such as your job, or is it due to emotional issues from the past? You consider yourself to be quite vulnerable, either due to your job or your emotions, which? Try and remain detached and untroubled, otherwise things will only get worse. Stay calm at all times. The problem in hex 15.6 is whatever is causing you torment. Old ideas and habits are anything that bind you to the past, anything that bogs you down in an emotional quagmire, anything that prevents you moving to the next stage of life, anything that causes you pain.
What is required of you now is devotion, acceptance of the situation, keeping still and being patient. Neither hexagram suggests travel, hex 23 says to stay put. Running away is certainly not the solution here. I suppose it is very easy to be weak and give up but don't do that. I am afraid that you should endure this chaotic period and wait for the better times to come. Your vision of the future is blinkered at the present time, so that you cannot see that in the near future all your present problems will be just history. Change is coming let it happen, as I said before things can only get better.

 

[dobro p]

"So I asked the Yi ching to show me a picture of my emotional life if I remain in this foreign country for the next 3 years (which was my original plan)."

Response: 15.3.6.>23

"The confusion lies in the apparent contradiction between the two lines. Based on what both of you have interpreted, it seems that: 15.3 saying keep your nose to the grindstone, wait it out, keep going (implication: stay put, keep doing what you’re doing, don’t change paths now). And 15.6 saying face the problem (what *is* the problem??) which means: activate, motivate, motorvate and, generally, move."

I wouldn't read those individual lines the way you've done here, not in the context of your original question. I hope it doesn't confuse you further, but here's my reading of those individual lines:

15.3 talks about hard work, humbling or leveling something, a spiritual orientation, and good fortune in the end. So emotionally, it'll be hard going for you and lot of work in the next three years, but by reducing your ego's concerns in the cause of spiritual development, there'll be a good outcome.

15.6 talks about signalling a humbling of things, about the advantage that comes to you through moving forcefully and imposing order at the center of the organization in question. Again, in the context of your question, it sounds like you'll have to take yourself in hand and tell yourself that you're going to sacrifice your ego's concerns in a forceful organizing of your life around the job in that country for another three years.

I don't see any advice to 'wait it out', but I do see strong indications that work will be required and that powerfully imposing order on the situation will be required if you choose to stay, cuz emotionally you want to be elsewhere, right? You'll have to humble that desire in a way that strips it bare. Like I said before, it doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me, but I might not be reading your situation right, and it might be a learning experience anyway.

Have you thought about asking a question about the other option? Asking a question about leaving, I mean.

 

[mudpie]

I see the reading as simply saying that if you stay, as planned, you will humbly bring things to conclusion and experience the natural ending of your time there. I dont think it is saying too much more than that.....not "good" or "bad" , just that if you stay, it's okay, it's as planned, you will see it through, and then move on.

It might sound kind of ho-hum, but it isnt dire. NOr is it really advice about whether you SHOULD stay or go.
Keep in mind you did not ask about whether you should stay or go. The Yi is not commenting on that, only on your question.. YOu might re-phrase to get a feeling for what the yi's opinion is ...of you staying where you are.

 

[willowfox]

Hi Elizabeth,

I suppose you could call this an added footnote. If you can possibly find it in yourself to live peacefully, get stuck into your work and sort out the business with your apartment, then the result will be very fortunate. But you must clear your mind of all those little doubts and negative thoughts that are floating around in there. This chaotic period will end but you must wait and be patient. I know that you have not been in your new job that long but give it time to grow on you, take it slowly, eventually you will be in line for a promotion. Do not anxiously expect things to happen, they happen in a slow but gradual way. Do you feel that your co-workers gossip about you? If you do then take no notice be beyond reproach in everything that you do. Stop your seeking, then all will be well.
"I was hoping to find a clue as to staying/leaving/how long..."
Well the answer to that is Hex 15.3 which says get stuck in and finish the job and Hex 23 which says to stay where you are.
Hex 23 has to do with October, and I told you before that the winter months would see alot of increased activity in your life. Wait and see.
Everything is down to being positive but keeping a low profile and to keep going don't let the upsets of life defeat you, be independent, you have to sort out your troubles by yourself.

 

[elizabeth]

Hi ladies and gents,

I had written a reply to autumn's post last night, but couldn't get online, and now have several more posts yay -- so now I want to respond to the last several messages. I'll go in chronological order.

Autumn -- thank you for your insightful post. It sounds as if Dobro and you have similar interpretations – ie. Not staying in this foreign country, in my case, will mean continued self-growth, self-exploration and learning, though not necessarily a pleasant experience (growth isn’t usually pleasant).

Based on another thread I have here (which it sounds as if you may have read) about soulmates, I was hoping that this time of Isolation and self transformation was nearing completion. It has been going on since I moved here 2 and a half years ago (and quite honestly, I am ready for it to end!)

At least this interpretation answers the moving/not moving issue. When I begin to think that I could uproot, move back, and feel exactly the same as I do now, it in fact encourages me to stay (as strange as that may sound). Come to think of it, one of the reasons I moved in the first place, I think, subconsciously, was to go through this transformatory experience. So, to know the issues-–moving, and my emotional/social state—-are separate ones, is already part of the answer.

This inspires me to create some sort of salve for myself through this time, (more social?) and simply hope it will be over sooner rather than later.

willowfox-- Thanks again for your input and interpretation. Just to clarify my own situation, right now I do not feel as if my world is falling apart. I'm living in a poverty-stricken country, and being surrounded by this, as well as a myriad of other strong cultural differences is starting, finally, after nearly 3 years, to "get to me". My job is fine and is great. I love it. So that part isn't a problem. The issue is more my emotional "outlook" based on my surroundings, if you will. I am not panicking, and there is no chaos (in fact if anything there is boredom and tranquility in my life now). I just feel that the vigor and enthusiasm I had about living here is dissipating. In terms of emotional torment (perhaps that is what you meant by chaos-- noise in the mind?) that would relate to nothing in my current surroundings (which are difficult but tolerable). I'd have to classify some family issues (family that is now in another hemisphere) as the source of ongoing stress when I think of it. But those issues are not anything I can control or change (trust me) and they aren't going away anytime soon either.

I take your interpretation of Hex 23 as not to go anywhere -- meaning dont leave now. And that makes perfect sense when I add autumn's interpretation to it. Because everything here ties together -- me staying here with the soulmate issue, me buying property with staying here, three years is connected to taxation issues etc -- it is hard to separate everything out.

Dobro -- your explanation of 15.6 here rings so true! Namely because for a number of reasons I'm not *dying to stay here* but for other reasons (financial to some extent) I feel I should stay. Thus I do, in actuality, have to force myself to commit to the decision and then just act it out methodically. This fits!

I do want to ask the Yi about leaving, and after I post this message I will do so.

Learner -- Op, you just read my thoughts. I'm going to ask the Yi if I should stay here now, but I am not sure how to phrase it. (I know we shouldn't ask forked questions as we wont get a clear answer). I will probably ask "do you think I should stay". Not sure how else to word it...

Thanks to everyone and more soon...

 

[elizabeth]

Ugh. I asked "Should I plan to stay here for the next 3 years" and it immediately gave me the joker (youthful folly). That's what I was afraid of.

How can I phrase this properly??

 

[willowfox]

Hi Elizabeth,

I don't seek out the young lady, she seeks me. When she asks for an oracle, I tell her. If she asks the same thing two or more times, this is poor manners, and I tell her nothing more. Perhaps it is time to be content with the answers that you have already received.

 

[elizabeth]

*sigh*

gotcha.

 

[autumn]

Elizabeth,
I think you were on the right track when you focused on your emotional life in general because the Yi wants to tell you it doesn't matter where you live, your heart will be with you where ever you go. You are in powerful contact with guidance right now to receive such a clear message as 4 unchanging in response to that question.

When you drew 15.3.6. (23), you were asking for your experience in the next 3 years, as if it were set in stone, and not as an active participant in your emotional experiences over the next three years. Because you received 15, which is about everything set in proper place, why not ask how to balance your emotional life? I personally like the questions, "what do I need to release", and "what do I need to embrace", because to me they focus on the essence of where I might be in a wrong pattern, and where I might need to grow.

 

[elizabeth]

autumn -- oh, thank you thank you! I like those questions. Thank you so much for the suggestion. It is funny how difficult determining what the question to pose should be! I will try your recommendation Thanks.
(pause)

Okay interesting results. I asked what I should embrace in order to balance my emotional life and received
Hex 15 Modesty w/changing line 6, moving to Hex 52 keeping still.

Hex 15 Modesty
That line is:
Modesty that comes to expression.
It is favorable to set armies marching
To chastise one's own city and one's country.

Hex 52 reads: Keeping still
above Mountain
below Mountain

The Judgement
Keeping Still. Keeping his back still
So that he no longer feels his body.
He goes into the courtyard
And does not see his people.
No blame.

The Image:
Mountains standing close together:
The image of Keeping Still.
Thus the superior man
Does not permit his thoughts
To go beyond his situation.

++ Does this mean I need to embrace balance itself, keeping still? (52)? For hex15.6, set armies marching...set things in motion, be active somehow?

 

[willowfox]

Hi Elizabeth,
you will find my interpretation of 15.6 on the other page which was part of your first question's answer.

Hex 52 means keeping still , being calm, finding inner peace, ceasing all movement especially your thoughts(as in meditation) not seeing the strife and problems that are around you. Calm yourself and you will see more clearly then you will be able to make the correct choices. Stop struggling bring peace to your heart. See no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil.

 

[autumn]

I am glad others are giving their input on what this means for you as something to embrace, and hope you get even more input and more interpretations from people. Also, know that if you keep this in your mind over the next few months, it's going to deepen in meaning for you. It is so interesting how answers that are asked with concentration reveal such meaningful patterns like this. Getting 15.6 is probably confirmation that your answer about your emotional life in the next 3 years if you stay here wasn’t about staying there or not staying there. I see it as- Solid within, Taking Responsibility for Oneself, Able to Lead

It's kind of related to your other answer, 37.3 (42), don't you think? You got lucky getting this, because that’s a very easy line to interpret. That's asking you to acknowledge and put energy into what's just now becoming conscious (42) for you about what was unbalanced (37.3) in your family life. You are right about the line. It says fix things. But most important is for you to fix your understanding of your family; it isn’t completely necessary to make things different with your mom. The only thing that is really important is that you are able to be around her and interact with her and not feel pulled into old ways of relating from childhood that aren’t useful to you anymore.

Children respond to their worlds in an entirely intuitive way. When something is wrong in relationship to their parents, but they are unable to communicate with their parents because they don't have the verbal and cognitive skills to be able to do that, then intuitive, wordless understanding has to go underground, and their conscious way of being in the world has to be altered. When your conscious way of being in the world is altered, it’s just another way of saying that your boundaries are altered. When your boundaries are altered, your relationships with others are altered.

Who you end up being in the world is kind of like silly puddy with impressions being made on them. Whatever shape you end up in seeks out relationships with others who are in a shape that complements the one you have. It’s not about blaming your mother. It’s just recognizing that people affect each other, and children can only deal with how they are affected by others in intuitive, wordless ways, because they don’t yet have the cognitive and verbal skills to work out their “relationship issues” with their parents. But now you are an adult, and you can see it clearly, and deal with it consciously and openly.

So, when you asked about what to embrace, you got 15.6. (52) (solidifying balance), and when you asked about your family, you received a mirror of the 15.6 issue in 37.3. 15.6 is where you were twisted out of shape by the imbalances in 37.3. When I make the qualitative judgment, “twisted out of shape”, what I mean is that your experiences have molded you into a person who believes she must accept being in the world without a partner. Or, perhaps more accurately, someone who’s offerings of love to others (50.2) will not be accepted. This belief draws men to you who will ultimately not accept your offering of emotional intimacy.

But, you can’t embrace something if you’re still holding on to something, right? That’s why it pairs with the question, “what do I release”.

 

[willowfox]

Hi Elizabeth,

For hex 23 I said "You feel that your world is falling apart, deteriorating, is the cause due to external sources".
Well, in a poverty stricken country it does indeed seem as if the world is falling apart and the conditions deteriorating. These types of places give the impression that chaos reigns (not chaos in your head but chaos in the street). Don't you think that what I said before now makes sense after you told us where you were living. If you are fed up or moody then your surroundings will "get to you", but once you break out of that thought pattern then daily life will get back to normal and your suurondings will fade into the background. Anyway some cultural differences can be extremely interesting to see and learn about, I am all for trying to find out how the other half lives.

The hexagrams that you have received have given you good advice, get more involved with your work, take no notice of your surroundings, try to have some fun. It seems that you are having a strong case of the blues, that's when the questions and doubts creep in.

 

[elizabeth]

Autumn,
Thank you so much. Wow. I have to digest everything you wrote (Have already read it through several times). I can see that the next question to ask is "what do i release" and that should be revealing. I'm curious how the Yi will answer, or more precisely, if I guess correctly at the answer, how the Yi will answer "release your pain regarding your mother". (!!) Maybe that isnt the issue but I know its one of them. And then again, knowing what to release, and being able to actually do it..are two different tasks.

willowfox-- Hi again . Yes -- now your interpretation makes much more sense to me, as chaos *does* reign here, all around me. (I didnt catch the "external circumstances" part when I first read your post). I'm going to try to take your advice, along with the other advice I've gotten here. I have a few social things lined up, and in the meantime will contemplate about the embracing/releasing theme that Autumn has pointed out to me.

This site is an *amazing* wealth of generous, intelligent, psychologically insightful human beings. I'm honored to have gotten all of this help and extremely grateful as well!

-E.

Edited to add: I just asked the releasing question ("what should I release in order to balance my emot'l life") and received an interesting (eyebrows raised here) reply. I got Hex14.2.4.5.6 and then Hex 53 After Completion.

14. Ta Yu / Possession in Great Measure
above Li The Clinging, Flame
below Ch'ien The Creative, Heaven

The Judgement--Possession in Great Measure.
Supreme success.

The Image--Fire in heaven above:
The image of Possession in Great Measure.
Thus the superior man curbs evil and furthers good,
And thereby obeys the benevolent will of heaven.

The Lines
Change in the second place means:
A big wagon for loading.
One may undertake something.
No blame.

Change in the fourth place means:
He makes a difference
Between himself and his neighbor.
No blame.

Change in the fifth place means:
He whose truth is accessible, yet dignified,
Has good fortune.

Change at the top means:
He is blessed by heaven.
Good fortune.
Nothing that does not further.

and HEX 63. Chi Chi / After Completion
above K'an The Abysmal, Water
below Li The Clinging, Flame

The Judgement-- After Completion. Success in small matters.
Perseverance furthers.
At the beginning good fortune,
At the end disorder.

The Image --Water over fire: the image of the condition
In After Completion.
Thus the superior man
Takes thoughts of misfortune
And arms himself against it in advance.

I admit I have no clue what it's trying to tell me with this last hex! With the first one (14) is the main idea that it is OK to have material belongings (ie release the idea that you too have to live at a poverty stricken level?) The lines give me some trouble...

 

[willowfox]

Hi Elizabeth,

Your question, "What should I release in order to balance my emotional life?"

It seems that it is not so much about release but more about how you should conduct yourself to achieve the balance.

Hex 14.2 speaks about putting your assets to good use, don't let them stagnate. It also says that you will find people who will help you, therefore be confident and move forward.
Hex 14.4 is giving you a set of guidelines to follow. Don't invite envy and do not envy others. Be modest and helpful, never boast or show off.
Hex 14.5 more guidelines. Always be sincere and trustworthy. Becareful when choosing friends, never compromise your principles, be helpful but dignified.
Hex 14.6 speaks of being modest and unassuming, being sincere then you should be able to find the balance that you are looking for, but you must also follow the advice of lines 2, 4,and 5 because they lead you to line 6, transcending the situation and achieving the balance. You will easily find willing helpers.

Hex 63 is saying that once your emotional life is balanced, then problems will begin to emerge. You must be constantly on guard to deal with them before they are allowed to grow bigger. Do not relax, strive to keep the balance healthy, always pay attention to the little things. Persevere to maintain that balance. This hex says that when your emotional life is finally balanced, your work has only begun. If you fail to maintain the balance then "in the end, disorder".

 

[autumn]

Elizabeth,
Let me ask you a few questions and then think about this..
Right off, you're in a context of 63, the past. Things that have been complete for some time that are continuing. With four changing lines, lots of energy in 14, letting me know something has a powerful hold here. The text of the lines begins to fade into the background with 4 changing lines, so the text itself of each line is less important, and other considerations become important. For example, the entire upper trigram changes. Very important. You need to release something in your outer world/relationship with others. Line 2 in the inner trigram may be more relevant to look at the text of the changing line. I happen to like this line very much. It's theme is responsibility. Also, though 13 and 14 are pairs, I can't help but think that there must be some relevance in that what you need to release is in 14, and what you need to embrace is in 15, and thus the chronological progression. *I am hoping someone will help me with that.

Interesting thing about 15.6 is that if you consider the aspects of 15 that are understood as humility, then in 15.6 the one who has been in a modest position is ready to assume responsibility. And I think the link here to 14>63 is probably going to end up be something along the lines of, "You are an adult now. Your parents cannot control who you are, what you think, what you value, and what you do. It is critical to release childhood."

So, to find out if I'm on the right track, let me ask you if that fits. I am getting an image of your parents as upper middle class and very controlling in a subtle, understated way. Now, if I'm wrong, by all means don't accept that. Just let me know if it fits. I'm wondering if they are the kind of parents who make you feel as if you must be a reflection of their ideals and what they value. I'm wondering if they have over-parented you long past the time when they should have respected your autonomy. And again- if that is off base, don't make it fit if it doesn't. That's just my first impression about where to go with this, but if it's not right, then the intepretation should be changed.

 

[jesed]

Hi Elizabeth

I think a lot before post in this thread... because I had a very fiferent way to face this situation. I'll express it, in case it could be useful

1.- Yijing, as everything in reality, has an order. The most we follow it's order, the clearest use of it we could have. That's doesn't imply that others aproach are wrong, but I had find that following this order is helpful.

2.- About this order, there are some hints.
a) Before asking how to act, one need to know how the situation is and it's causes
b) Before asking for future, one need to solve the present/past
c) There is a binomy general/concrete. You can remain in the general realm; you can remain in the concrete realm. The mayor clarity come from going from general to concrete
d) Al the 10,000 things (all concrete worries or issues to ask) can belong to one of 3 mayor areas in our life: spiritual, inner world (emotional/relationship) and outer activity (labor/undertakings). If we clarify first the area (spiritual/amotional/labor), then we can see with more clarity the concrete situation.

Now, in your firt question you had 2 issues interconected: an outer activity (the proyect that lead you to be in an alien country) and an inner world (your emotional life). Your worry is your emotional life, affected by your outer activity. Right? But in the following post, seems like the mayor issue is your emotional life.

Sorry for this long trip... the suggestion for you (according with the previous trip) is to follow this dialogue (in thios order):
a) Global diagnosis of my Time
b) General diagnosis of my Emotional Life
c) General Diagnosis of my Labor Life
d) Diagnosis of my concrete emotional situation in this country.

This would give you a wide picture of your present, pointing to issues to work, and giving the elements for future choices.

Best wishes

 

[autumn]

Jesed, I offered these questions to Elizabeth for two reasons, 1) I was working with the assumption she had already identified the problem, and 2) you weren't posting on either one of her threads that she created to follow up on your initial reading. You weren't offering to interpret a diagnosis reading for her, which I agree is useful and helpful and an appropriate way to identify problems.

Perhaps it was presumptuous of me to assume the questions I offered would be useful here. Elizabeth, Jesed is a much more experienced interpreter than I am, and please accept my recommendation that he help you.

 

[jesed]

Hi Autumn

1.- I like very much your pair-question (what to embrace and what to release). I think is useful

2.- I hadn't realize, until now, that Elizabeth is the one who made the question about finding a soulmate. So, the global diagnosis and the emotional diagnosis had been asked. (therefore, my suggestion in this thread wasn't useful, since that would be re-asking ==> hex 4)

And the answers had a high conection with this question....
"Of course, more than an asumption, is a metaphora... you can be in "56" even if you are in the place where you born and lived all your life. is a metaphora of be alienate from people. Of course, it could be a literal description: you are living in a foreing country."

This implies 2 posibilities:
a) Her isolation come from be in a foreing country (seems this is the asumption behind the first question in this thread)
b) In her iner world, she is like an emotional exiliate (in that country, or in any other country)

My take is the 2nd... moving from the country won't solve the isolation feelings. (of course, you had already point to that interpretation in this thead)

And I realize now that, previously, Elizabet asked about her mother. While reading her posts about that issue, I thought: "She could find useful Hellinger's work", until i read that I had give her the link to Hellinger's page already.

At the light of those previous threads/answers, tyhe way I see the answers to your suggested questions is:
a) What to embrace: emotional balance due to serenity
b) What to release: emotional posessiveness due to pesimism

Best wishes

 

[jesed]

Dear Elizabeth

I want to say you something, with the mayor respect and care for your life. I hope you don't find this wrong, but useful.

I hope you could re-read the article about Hellinger's work, not thinking in "oh.. if my mother know this", but to apply to yourself.

Here is what it seems to me is happening (based in Hellinger's aproach):
1.- You love so much your mother and father
2.- This love had be covered by pain and even rage (because you hadn't receive the love you needed)
3.- This great love had lead you to identify yourself with your father... someone that recieve not signs of love. The actual isolation (and the way your ex-couple behaved with you) is a way to show your love to your father
4.- But there is also the love to ypur mother... and loyalty to her implies for you not to show love to others. Here, the idea "i meant to be single; I won't have a happy marriage" is loyalty to your mother.

5.- Traditional psycology would say to you that this is wrong, and you must release this subconsciuos ideas. But that would be losing the child when relaesing the water of the bath. Beacuse ther is something really worthly in this: the love for your parents.
Only this love is childness love. Being emotional isolated won't change the emotional isolation of your parents. Release the direction of that love (I'll suffer like they suffered), but remain the love for them.

You could say:
"Mom and Dad. I'm your doughter and I love you both. I would like you didn't suffer emotional isolation, but I can change that; and it is not my business.. that was your life, and I should respect the way you lived. You gave me the life..and I take it from you. Everything else (the cost you had paid in your lifes) I won't take it; it belongs to you, not me. But I love you, so I'll take the life you gave me, and I'll live a happy life as way to honor your lifes. And, if Life finds me worthly, someday I would give life to my childs without transfer them my own cost".

The day you could say this, not only with words or ideas, but with your soul, your life will shine in such a lovely way that world will be attonished and happy.

Best wishes

 

[elizabeth]

Wow. Many replies to catch up to. I'll go in order.

Willowfox, thank you. That "translation" is very clear and easy to follow. I'm making a note of it to refer to going forward.

Autumn, I'm still somewhat new to the inner/outer trigram ideas but I can follow your post in the rest of its terms. If you're right, releasing (something - perhaps childhood) precedes embracing (self worth, openness to others? I'm just guessing here). And yes, what you surmised about my parents is correct. Yes, upper middle class, yes they have always had preconceived ideas about who and what I will and should be. Yes they (especially my mother) have tried to control me, always. They still have ideas of who I should be. (My mother wanted me to work for the UN, for example. The fact that I am not means I'm a failure in her eyes. She cannot see that SHE wanted to work for them, SHE has dreams she never achieved, projects them onto me, and then projects the idea that I'm a failure. She doesnt even know what I do in my daily job now.) Anyhow, although others tell me I am an amazingly accomplished young woman, according to my mother at least, I'm nothing. I know we should never need our parents' approval to feel good about ourselves, but I always have sought it. (My sister does too). It must be an innate part of human beings to seek that sense from a parent of "you're doing great, you're fine, we love you *as you are*". In my case, I have heard many empty words over the years and it didnt really sink in until recently, when I realized (by looking at their actions, not words) that I really have been alone in all of my pursuits. On the one hand, I'm highly independent and have only myself to thank or blame if something goes wrong. On the other hand, it hurts me to think (and maybe this is what I have to stop doing) how much easier it all could have been if they had supported me and allowed me to be "me" instaed of who they wanted me to be. A big part of it is, in trying to fit what they wanted, I lost years and parts of myself that I'm only now *trying* to gain back. And in some cases they are lost for good. So, I dont know if that addresses what you were getting at, but in any case it's some more background.

Jesed, As always I'm very grateful for your input. I am trying to understand what you wrote and let me paraphrase to see if I have it right. We confirmed that I've already asked for the Diagnosis (In the soulmate thread) and that my internal emotional isolation will not be affected (improved/eliminated) by me moving cities or countries. Ie my emotional state is independent of geographical location. Okay.

You've succinctly concluded (based on Autumn's questions) that I need to embrace emotional serenity and chuck emotional possessiveness (more on this in a minute). I just want to be sure I understand you.

So based on Hellinger, (and this sounds completely right to me), my parents are in some way emotionally isolated (from each other or from me or from the world or all of the above) and as subconscious "proof" of my love for them I have tried to be or ended up somehow(subconsciously) emotionally isolated from others around me. So, I should release the projection onto myself of their problem of emotional isolation, thank them for giving me life, decide to do the best with it i can and then move on.

Is that it? I can say that with my heart and soul now, but believing it deep down (that I am worthy, that I will find a partner, that I am not condemned to repeat the mistakes of my parents) is another story! If any of you kind souls on this thread have recommendations as to how to full internalize that, I would love to hear them.

I very much liked your synopsis of Autumn's release/embrace idea. What does it mean to release emotional possessiveness? Possessiveness of what, exactly? Is that possessiveness of the idea above (parental emotional isolation)?

I think that covers everything. Did I leave anything out?? (?)

-Elizabeth

 

[jesed]

Hi Elizabeth

When trying to change, experience is the only tool..

The second time I went to Familar Constelations (hellinger's work), I learn something interesting about therapy (and I had find it truth and useful): there are 3 diferent issues to work in therapy..and one therapy helps in some issues and doesn't help in other issues:
a) Issues linked with our family system. facts that happened even 1 or 2 generations before we born.
b) Issues linked with our childhood, especially emotional wounds due to lack of love (or misleaded love)
c) Issues linked with learn new skills for actual/future life.

But... many issues linked with our childhood are also linked with our family system. Our parents wounded us in our childhood..but they was re-doing previous unsolved family issues.

Hellinger's aproach is useful in those cases..when there is a systematic tie in our development.

Now, this is to say... Hellinger's aproach is useful only when one experience it (it means..do the work of represent the family constelation, helped by a trained people).

The best suggestion I could made for you is to search a workshop on family constelation and give it an experimental try.

This is not a lon-term therapy... you "work" from 30 to 60 minutes...and then let's the experience develop naturally in your soul (from 3 to 12 months). But often changes happen in 1 or 2 days.

I know you are in Europe, but I don't know where. Here is the international directory of trained practitioner availed by hellinger
http://www.hellinger.com/db/international.php?en....

I can tell you, by experience, that if you participate in one of those workshops, you could find a powerful and effective tool.

Best wishes

 

[willowfox]

Hi Elizabeth,

Yes, you forgot to reply to your question, "Dealing with maternal conflict:37.3>42.