Interpretation protocol

[urim]

On a certain level I think I'd have to agree with Meng's approach to interpretation.
If I understand correctly, I think it's too easy to lose sight of the 'bare bones'
original, unelaborated meaning of any given hexagram, and get carried away with
how it supposedly relates to the human condition with too much paraphrasing.
Given the difficulty involved in translating I'm not sure 'Gathering' is the
definitive rendering. Who knows... maybe 'Illness' is more accurate?
I'd like to see more translators back up their interpretations with a list of all
possible meanings of the names of the Gua and a complete breakdown of
of meanings of the Ideograph-- something like Alfred Huang,Stackhouse,Palmer,Hatcher
(keywords I find helpful) and LiSe's translations attempt to provide.

Hmm... might be interesting to do a survey of which meanings most frequently
coincide with a particular real life situation, which might help define and validate
the true original meaning of any given hexagram...

Urim

 

[maremaria]

Maremaria, there could be information in that pool, but I'm sure there's also emotion by the gallon, sloshing up against the banks.

Hilary, Maybe I should say a pool of “information” or “ raw data”.
Maybe the “raw data” gathered together form a lake (meaningful information ?)

Maybe the reason we collect /gather together things is what 45 talks about.

Observing myself re. 45 I see an “illness”(i.e. cann’t grasp its meaning”. There are ideas, thoughts, feelings wandering everywhere but nothing seems meaningful. Maybe if I gathered them together maybe something in them holds a remedy
To “cure” that “illness” first of all have to get them or myself together

 

[meng]

I have to get around to writing the Caveman's I Ching.

Urim, are you familiar with Bradford Hatcher's work, including his Zhouyi and Yijing Glossary? It's still available for free. http://www.hermetica.info

 

[hilary]

Pause to remember the Little Red Hen. I seem to remember a lot of,

'Who will help me to grind the wheat?'
'Not I,' said the rat. 'Not I,' said the cat. 'Not I,' said the pig...
'Then I shall do it myself,' said the Little Red Hen.

...and so on - and I can hear my Dad now doing all the animal voices! It has a 47-ish feel to me, on the whole: there may be no connection or resource out there, but I have my own in here. I see what you mean about 45.5, though. In theory they have a relationship; in practice, not so much trust. (But the line isn't stuck there.)

'Gathering Together' can be gathering all your own resources (inner as much as outer), bringing all your focus and intensity to bear in one place - and then this fuels the Push Upward.

(I like the idea of connecting fables and hexagrams. I'd already thought of maybe breaking the ice in that new group course I'm meant to be writing now by doing practice readings for Cinderella. She might come in useful if no-one wants to dive right in and share their own story. But it'd be fun as an a priori exercise, too. Where in the Yijing is Henny Penny? Or Jemima Puddleduck? (10.3?) Or the Enormous Turnip?)

 

[hilary]

Ack - I write an answer, and then find three more posts

Caveman's I Ching - yes, please.

'Original, unelaborated meaning' - I persist in thinking that this is pretty likely to be a human feeling/ condition/ impulse... or complex of these.
41: 'Giving stuff up makes me nervous.'
7: 'Getting it done, getting it done, getting it done, getting it done...'
Can't think of how to put 45 just now, but you know what I mean.

"Raw data" sounds good for 45's reservoir - especially the 'raw' part.

 

[maremaria]

Rosada & Hilary, another fable (Aesop) : The four oxen and the lion.

A Lion used to prowl about a field in which Four Oxen used to dwell. Many a time he tried to attack them; but whenever he came near they turned their tails to one another, so that whichever way he approached them he was met by the horns of one of them. At last, however, they fell a-quarrelling among themselves, and each went off to pasture alone in a separate corner of the field. Then the Lion attacked them one by one and soon made an end of all four.

Maybe 45 or 8.

Meng, do you accept pre-orders ?

 

[meng]

Meng, do you accept pre-orders ?

ug umph nuhnuh

 

[maremaria]

ug umph nuhnuh

 

[Trojina]

Hmm... might be interesting to do a survey of which meanings most frequently
coincide with a particular real life situation, which might help define and validate
the true original meaning of any given hexagram...

Urim

Well for me, time and time over, 45 concerns an actual gathering of people

 

[heylise]

Over the past years I gathered words or compounds of with the character names were part. Some have been entered in the website, but most not yet. I put 45-46 in, because of this thread.

Looking at words in which a hexagram name is used gives a lot of insight into its general meaning, which is very different from looking at specific meanings. Like chewing several things together and then finding out the overall taste.

About 45-46

It was supposed to be part of the SanShan software, but for some reason never did.

LiSe

 

[heylise]

Could it be that dying has to do with the individual disappearing in the big group? A young farmer gets a uniform and does not exist as farmer boy anymore, only as a pawn in the army. His life is not important. Cannon fodder. The picture of cui is a uniform and grass..

LiSe

 

[Sparhawk]

That was very interesting, LiSe. Thanks.
I believe this is one of the cases where a distinction between ancient attitudes, specially macro Eastern philosophical attitudes, of being born pretty much to "serve,' while individuality of thought is discouraged unless you belong to either royalty or the very controlled scholarly elites, and those of Western thought, where you could find quite a few ancient "anarchist" with novel ideas. The only free-agents in ancient China appear to have been the Fang Shih, and even though many times employed by the governing elites, they were looked upon with scorn.

I mention all that to create some context for the idea that "the individual disappearing in the big group" was more the norm than the exception in ancient China. The concept of "death" behind the character has the commonality of that of "serving." "Serving," under those circumstances, is a form of death as a person.

Cheers,

 

[meng]

LiSe's 45 comments reminded me of this (sorta), which was emailed to me this morning from my son.

In one episode of "Cheers", Cliff is seated at the bar describing the Buffalo Theory to his buddy, Norm. I don't think I've ever heard the concept explained any better than this:

"Well you see, Norm, it's like this . . A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the heard is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.

In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine.

And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers."

 

[maremaria]

So that is the sacrifice if I have understand it. There is something that one wants to achieve. Alone s/he cann’t do it . S/he must find common people who share the same goal. To be a team member s/he must wear a special uniform and leave hers/his casual clothes home.

Meng “This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. “

A good example ,imo, of curing the “illness” and become stronger.

LiSe, Luis, Meng, thanks you.

 

[urim]

I still consider myself as a newbie to the I ching, although I've been reading about
it and consulting it for maybe past 10 years on a rather superficial level. I've only just recently started delving into it more seriously, due partly to this great site and the wealth of info available.
Sorry if some of my posts sound a tad critical, don't mean to be, find it difficult
to get the 'tone' just right.

Meng-- yes, I've recently discovered Hatcher's I Ching which I hold in high regard
but I need to research it more.
Caveman translation?-- OK, I get your point LOL , but of course given
the inherent difficulties of translating the Yi even a 'caveman translation'
could be controversial...
Heylise-- thanks for the extra info on 45 & 46, fascinating stuff, I really
appreciate your analysing the ideogram, characters, radicals etc.
at your site

Urim

 

[meng]

Caveman translation?-- OK, I get your point LOL , but of course given
the inherent difficulties of translating the Yi even a 'caveman translation'
could be controversial...

Urim, no matter how many times I've approached writing a Yi "version", I'm soon cut off, because I believe the Yi deserves an accurate translation, and I don't translate, I apply or illustrate.

So, for now, the closest I've come to free form, and mostly nature based, metaphors and impressions, is here: http://www.yijing.nl/candid/hexagrams/index.htm

 

[urim]

Thanks for the link Meng-- but I'm getting the sense maybe we are not quite 'on
the same page' (probably 'my bad') and like you-- I too believe the Yi deserves
an accurate translation... What I'd like to see is, --whoever attempts an accurate
translation-- should give a logical explanation of how they arrived at their
interpretation of a Gua, Ideogram, radical etc. (IMHO).

If a certain translator's version of the Yi is going to differ radically from the 'norm'
then IMO the translator should be aware he/she is going 'out on a limb' &
give a valid reason WHY they think it should deviate from the 'norm'.

The problem is-- from my limited understanding--apparently you can have
scholarly translators with credentials as long as your arm, debating over how
to translate an ancient chinese 3000 year old Gua,Ideogram character etc.
I jus think part of the fun is having the opportunity to examine the 'footprints'
leading up to their decisions regarding a character.

cheers
Urim

 

[meng]

For me, LiSe's translation and commentaries were a complete departure from what I had been accustomed to. She never gave a "valid reason WHY she deviated from the norm", that I know of, but she does support her unique presentation with some compelling evidence of it's legitimacy. The norm appears to broaden along with our understanding.

But I think it's a mistake (not saying one you are necessarily making) to think "If I just have the perfect translation, I will understand the Yijing." When things like humor, wit, charm and colloquialisms of the authors (not to mention of the gods!) are considered, even the perfect translation won't make it easy to know. And that brings me back to the benefit of primitive understanding.

 

[meng]

And that brings me back to the benefit of primitive understanding.

...because primitive understanding came before the authors. They only wrote of it, they didn't invent it, though they did invent a cool tracking system.. maybe.

 

[urim]

Yeah, I agree Meng... BTW I love the buffalo herd analogy LOL.
Another thing I like about LiSe's site is the (add on pages, i.e. 'more about hex #...)
which sometimes have a wealth of fascinating details re the ideograms etc.

cheers
urim