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peace

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Hi all:

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this....

A few weeks ago someone on the forum (I believe it was Hilary) pointed me to Denis Mair's interpretations of the trigrams.

I found this very helpful and was wondering - before I delve into the readings on the OysterBay website - what other people's perspective is on his interpretations.

Thanks, Rosalie
 
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bruce

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Yo, Brad, soooo true. Just when I think I have a grip on it, it turns to vapor, and it's as though I have to start over from scratch again. The exception being the mark it has made in my heart and belly. That is what remains and belongs to me.

I know you?re not wild about Wilhelm, but sometimes I think he nails it head on: ?only through repetition that the pupil makes the material [elephant] his own.?
 

bradford_h

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Hi Bruce-
I don't know what you meant by "not wild", but Wilhelm has always been on my top ten list, and on every recommended list I've ever posted that wasn't top 3. It's just important for people to realize he's often dated, and that he often has a western, christian slant that needs to be compensated for.
 
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bruce

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Brad, yes, his western/christian bias can mislead. I recall you saying, once, "if you must", to someone saying they will read him. My misunderstanding.
 
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peace

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Thanks guys -
I have to admit, I truly admire both your viewpoints always, so hearing you say this is good for me.
I really "got" what he said about the trigrams - and also both of your suggestions about meditating on them and "being them".
My working with I Ching has gained so much depth in the past few weeks - from merely an intuitive feeling to truly being able to visualize what I'm intuitive about (does that make sense)?

It helps me realize that what seems intuitive - isn't just a gut feeling and if we look at where it comes from, we have a basis for the intuition.

Rosalie
 
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bruce

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True, Rosalie, but never underestimate what manifests in your gut. Our body is perhaps the best oracle of all, if we learn to listen to it. Funny, most of the time the Yi agrees with what it says.
 

lightofdarkness

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Guys - we are dealing with qualities derived from the realm of the vague, the general, and as such a language of the vague that, being vague, is wide with possible interpretations.

Thus, ANYTHING associated with issues of wholeness, of blending will 'map' to the trigrams of heaven and earth. The interpretations cover competetive perspectives (and so dark/light) and cooperative perspectives (and so female/male) etc etc

Our instincts are encoded with the vague. Our consciousness allows us, through experience and reason, to refine those instincts and so refine our integration with the local context to so operate 'smoothly' in that context.

I think the comments by some above reflect too much focus on expression rather than on what that expression is expressing!

As neuron-dependent species we cannot escape the hard-coding of the neurology nore the hard-coding of the basic forms of representations - summarised as blend (whole), bond( share space), bound (part, boundary), and bind (share time).

Add a qualifying dichotomy such as contract/expand and we have 'contractive' blending, expansive blending etc and so eight core categories reflected at the level of expressions in all of the trigrams.

Add the interpretations bias of competitive/cooperative and we have TWO sets of trigrams. Apply each set to itself (self-referencing) and we move to TWO forms of IC interpretations from a STRUCTURAL perspective, one cooperative, one competitive. This duality in interpretations etc comes from the dynamics of the use of the differentiate(yang)/integrate(yin) dichotomy to interpret reality.

The IC is a product of our brains AS A SPECIES and as such represents us. LOCALISATION will make such perspectives as the 'traditional' IC but there is a LOT more going on and we can map-out the language of the vague as feelings and then zoom-in for local details using labels. AT that point one can get 'confused' due to the infinite number of possible associations to the finite number of symbols - but language does that - trigrams etc are like letters and using them come words - lots of them.

The IC is more 'basic' than the written/spoken languages but being so covers more through direct feeling - an issue for our mediating, serial-driven consciousness where we keep re-writing the 'bible' for each generation of expressions.

Understand the generic language of the vague and things become a touch easier in 'feeling' meanings and then localising eith words.

Chris
 

lightofdarkness

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BTW - the full list of the generic feelings of trigrams/hexagrams are covered in the 'Species I Ching' thread on this list or at my websites.

Every person on the planet will come up with 'unique' perspectives on IC trigrams BUT analysis will show that each of these are sourced from a general perspective rooted in our unconscious and fully determined by the neurology of the species where we can derive the four basics of blending, bonding, bounding, and binding and all else follows (and that means composites etc) where we apply labels to differentiate the sameness into differences.

Chris
 
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peace

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Yup - I agree with you Bruce. And, I think Chris explained it well (at least the little bit I understood of what he said).

"Every person on the planet will come up with 'unique' perspectives on IC trigrams BUT analysis will show that each of these are sourced from a general perspective rooted in our unconscious ".

I know I am attracted to interpretations that are "looser" and have more possibilities and that ebb and flow rather than static - and I like the psychological meanings since I'm a shrink (which also was no accident that I chose to be one)>
(Chris - that's because I'm an ENT/FP - makes sense?)

Anyway, good discussion.

Rosalie
 

lightofdarkness

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From the psychological perspective & the MBTI - the E, N, and P appear constant so we can focus on the middle T/F dichotomy.

NT focus maps to problem solving and the digram of yin over yang. XNTP maps to the trigram of thunder. ENTP to the four hexagrams of 51, 21, 17, & 25. (The IC allows for more precision than the MBTI).

NF focus maps to identity seeking and the diagram of yang over yin. XNFP maps the trigram of earth. ENFP to the four hexagrams of 16, 35, 45, & 12.

The general mix just using trigrams can come out with XNFP over XNTP (earth over thunder - 24) and XNTP over XNFP (thunder over earth - 16).

16 covers planning and the use of forsight in predictions etc. ("with/from devotion (to another/others) comes awareness") 24 covers distractions and coming back to the 'true' faith/point etc. ("with/from enlightenment comes absolute trust in another/others")

From these 'generals' I can see the 'shrink' aspect ;-)

To get the full spectrum we can use the XOR material to map-out the spectrum for any persona (and so the 'infrastructure' of a pure XNTP (thunder over thunder) is described by analogy to 35 (bring 'something' into the light))

I have mapped these dynamics of the pure types in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/type.html - I had to remove the mbtiplus material.

The generic nature of thunder is on expansive binding (issues of sharing of time with another/others but 'now' oriented rather than the cultivating of wind (more future oriented))

The generic nature of earth is on contractive blending (issues of wholeness through contracting, integrating)

There is a LOT of material here to flesh-out the psyche IN GENERAL and then to focus on customisations (and so the individual etc)

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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oops - "NF focus maps to identity seeking and the diagram of yang over yin" should be the digram of yin over yin.

Note that the NF/NT are variations on a theme with the bottom line being the only difference for earth-based hexagrams vs thunder-based hexagrams. We can form these into pairs for analysis:

02 - 24
23 - 27
08 - 03
20 - 42
16 - 51
35 - 21
45 - 17
12 - 25

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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tsk tsk --- that should be NFP/NTP for earth/thunder dynamics re variations on a theme.
 
P

peace

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Hi Chris:

IMHO - you give MBTI way too much importance.
First of all - I have been teaching this theory for years, and people do change. For example, after a good deal of therapy - most intuitives lean more towards the sensing realm (since they become more grounded). Many E move towards or become I with age. P tends more towards J with age.

There is no such thing as constant.
Also - people take the test and choose their own answers. It is their opinion of themselves, their image of themselves that they self-select - and many people are not self-aware. People who want to believe they are "people persons" or "open to possibilities" select responses that satisfy their needs.

I do not put much belief in MBTI - or any psychological test where people self-select.
There are tests that are accurate, but can only be administered by a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist. These are the ones I use - and the results are far different.

I told you what my type was because I knew you would have something to say about it. I think it's a fun exercise, but that's about it. People think it's accurate because they fill out the test and then they have their own responses reflected back to them as validation - which is their imagination.
Yes - I like to think of myself as ENTP or ENFP or INTP - whichever suits my mood! (Always the P).
 
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micheline

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how interesting Rosalie...I have never seen it presented like that, altho I too have been suspect of self-interpretation tests.

I believe it is rare for a person to be truly self-aware.... Though most assume that they are...It can be strange to witness the dichotomy! always makes me wonder if I know myself as much as I might feel I do!

I would be so interested in knowing what the names of the tests are that you feel are accurate...the ones available to licensed professionals..if you care to name them, that is!
 

lightofdarkness

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HI Rosalie, I give the 'traditional' MBTI no real, intense, interest. The 'as is' is cheap, over-sold and under-achieving. I use it as an example of how our brains categorise using dichotomies ordered from general to particular. (see mappings in such pages as http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/mbti.html )

The MBTI is one of four specialisations I use to show the generalisation working underneath. MY work in fact takes the whole thing WAY beyond the current dogma - you will not find my extensions to the MBTI in ANY current 'traditional' text. (and so the XOR work of IC plus applies to the MBTI and you wont find that in ANY text)

What you obviously DONT get is that from the IDM perspective the Structure of Personality is encoded in ALL of us and as such ALL types apply to EACH individual. BUT, local context and genetics will elicit the favouring of one behaviour over others. (and so no matter how hard you try, that 'P' aspect sticks. I have mine down to XNXP - two more to go to move the universals into 'context sensitive' - for comments on the over-emphasis of the categories in the MBTI (their focus on universals etc) see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/price.html)

Your comments about 'teaching this theory for years' indicates to me a claim to authority but you have been selling dogma and the IDM material is NOT dogma - it transcends anything you have been selling/teaching so I suggest you dont take things so dimissivly. There IS foundation in the MBTI material but it is 'hidden' by the limited level of its precision in deriving types etc. (8 to 16 as compared to what we can do with the IDM focus - 64, 4096, 16+million etc etc etc - the comments I made on XNTP etc limit to trigrams etc so we can go FAR deeper than the traditional material etc)

So - dont assume my work is 'lite' and 'misguided' - it isnt. And I include in that questioning mechanisms that bypass the direct self-select and at the same time allow for the use of the IC representations to allow for path work much faster than current therapy etc.

Since we move yin-to-yang/yang-to-yin so each dichotomy will shift element expressions over time so there is nothing new about what you are saying. What the IDM material can do is in fact map out the changes over age for each possible 'originating' type. The issue is on the time involved in that change in that the movement for any PARTICULAR passage can span beyond the life time of the individual undergoing change! These changes work on a COLLECTION not an individual (see the material on small world networks - see comments re history in:
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/Vague.pdf

If you really want to get into the psyche of the species then the IDM material mapped through the specialisations of IC (and ICPlus), emotions, and the MBTI will aid you - current dogma will not (as you seem to realise to a point ;-))

For your work as a shrink you should be aware of emotions driving behaviours and we can map them to IC trigrams/hexagrams etc etc etc and the behaviours can span a lifetime or a minute - depends on the context ;-) - change context and you stop the buttons being pushed and so allow for 're-configuration'. Trying to change whilst still in a context that is eliciting 'old behaviours' will be a problem.

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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BTW to emphasise the collective nature of these tests - the INTP category maps to behaviours reflected in the IC by hexagrams 24, 27, 03, and 42. The INTP category represents a COLLECTIVE of about 1% of the USA population - say 300million gives us 3million INTPs.

The dynamics of the COLLECTIVE is derived from XOR-ing to give us the 'ideal' passage through the category - IOW given the collection of INTPs there is a beginning and ending in development that is determined IN GENERAL. It is the PARTICULARS that we focus upon and so get a bit lost with in that the dynamics apply to the COLLECTIVE, NOT the individuals in that collective. As such, GIVEN TIME, the INTP will follow a path and reach a goal. INDIVIDUALS in that group will include those who die or are distracted/blocked LOCALLY and so will not reach the goal in their life time.

Making finer distinctions allow us to cut down the size of the collect to the point where we have collectives made up of only one member - the unique individual but that is too hard to do and not really required in understanding 'autopilot' where context pushes our buttons IN GENERAL (and so as collective members)

There is a LOT of work to be done in all of this as we now have to review all typologies etc given the findings in neurosciences.

BTW - in tests run by the NSF on the MBTI, they noted that the MBTI categories were the 'closest' to what the testees considered themselves to be. Given the IDM and ICPlus material we can in fact sort the full set of categories into 'best fit' (or 'preferred fit') to worst fit order and context 'plays' with that where we can map out the 'dark side' of personas etc etc etc


Chris.
 

martin

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"Your comments about 'teaching this theory for years' indicates to me a claim to authority but you have been selling dogma and the IDM material is NOT dogma - it transcends anything you have been selling/teaching so I suggest you dont take things so dimissivly."

Nah Chris, I don't see any claim to authority in what Rosalie said. Perhaps a claim to practical experience "in the field", but that is a different matter.
And dogma? Quite the opposite:
"Yes - I like to think of myself as ENTP or ENFP or INTP - whichever suits my mood! (Always the P).
"

Now look at your claim:
"the IDM material is NOT dogma - it transcends anything you have been selling/teaching"

Rosalie wrote:
"after a good deal of therapy - most intuitives lean more towards the sensing realm (since they become more grounded)"

Make an appointment with her, Chris!
 
P

peace

Guest
I used MBTI, for many years, as a part of workshops with executives as a fun exercise (like a Cosmopolitan magazine quiz!) - for the purpose of demonstrating that people have different styles - and to get along and be heard, it is important to realize this and sometimes talk to someone else in "their language" if you want to be heard better.

Micheline - for personality assessment, the best one is Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI). It's very long and burdensome -and used alot to determine psychopathic tendencies.
Personality tests don't mean that much. People behave differently in different situations and with different people.

I have found the most useful is what is called 360 feedback, used mostly in the workplace.
The person asks for feedback from lots of sources -boss, people who report to them, customers (internal and external), etc.

You get a variety of responses - and repetitive themes emerge. These are the ones to pay attention to. A meaningful use of this feedback is find someone you can develop a trusting relationship with and talk to them about the feedback - and ask for their responses too.

Chris - I've never made light of your work. Sometimes I wonder why you do it - but I've never thought about it one way or another. I've learned some things from you - although many times I find your writings more work to read than I'm willing to do.

Anyway - I guess we read the I Ching interpretations based on the writings we resonate with.

Hope I haven't gotten people too off track.

Rosalie
 
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bruce

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"Hope I haven't gotten people too off track."

Rosalie, you've got to be one of the most modest (in the true 15 sense) people this site has ever seen. My respects to you.
 

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