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Introduction from a newbie, and sharing first casting

deanna

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Hi! just found this community recently and I'm learning alot from posts and newsletters but I'm so new at this and would like a little help just to get me going, if it's not too rude to ask, right at the get-go.
I will have to get a little personal here to explain.
My husband and I were trying to get intimate, we talked for awhile enjoying good conversation and it was getting late. The move from nice conversation to approach and beginning 'physical intimacy' feels strained, forced, not flowing, following usual patterns, auto-pilot, not originating in a passionate moment. There are fears and inadequacies coming from both sides, but most of mine come from experiencing consequences of his, making me have to do things kind-of "hexagram 36 style" burrying my light. Anyway, when it gets uncomfortable enough, he leaves the room to brush his teeth for bed and right then i thought this would be a perfect thing to cast and inquire about, as i had been trying to think of something to cast for (i'm very familiar with tarot and understand importance of asking the right question)

So my question was "how do we overcome this impasse that so frequently happens?"

Result of casting:
Hexagram #11 changing to hexagram #10
I can immediately see (but only intuitively and not proper translation, probably) that an unchanging 11 would be the ideal or what it could be if it were not for some sort of energetic stuckness (i think) seen in changing line 3(No plain not followed by a slope.
No going not followed by a return.
) and it looks pretty bad at changing line 6 (Perseverance brings humiliation), but i'm not exactly sure why from an I Ching standpoint and what answer comes from this casting. And that's about as much as i can see into this without some help. I hope ya'll don't mind and I will try to contribute to the forums when i learn a little more.
thanks in advance for any comments, direction, and of course a warm welcome. :)
 

bradford_h

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Hi Deanna
First, you shouldn't be looking at lines other than three. Line 3 is the Yi's response.
See if this translation helps:
11.3, 9 3rd
There is no level without a slope,
No going without a return
(It is) difficult to persist with no errors
Do not worry: these (are) certainties
In nourishment find happiness
11.3x
No going without a return:
Heaven (and) earth meet here

I think it might be saying "fnd the center of the situation, not the end of it". Start with what you both need, take care of that now, then move on to what you want. Work on common ground.
 

soshin

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Hello Deanna and a warmest welcome to the friends area!

First of all: as Bradford stated in the above posting, you should not be looking at other lines than the moving ones.

The answer seems very positive and encouraging to stay with the relationship IMHO, espacially the first hexagram and its moving line. As I do not know which translation you use I hope this one helps a little:
"Everything on earth is subject to change. Prosperity is followed by decline:
this is the eternal law on earth. Evil can indeed be held in check but not permanently abolished. It always returns. This conviction might induct melancholy, but it should not; it ought only to keep us from falling into illusion when good fortune comes to us. If we continue mindful of the
danger, we remain persevering and make no mistakes. As long as a man's inner nature remains stronger and richer than anything offered by external fortune, as long as he remains inwardly superior to fate, fortune will not desert him." (From the Wilhelm-Baynes trans.)

There could easily be an "energetic stuckness" in this issue, as all too often it happens, that when we are finally happy in a relationship, we tend to expect too much.

Could you go into depth about: "...but most of mine come from experiencing consequences of his, making me have to do things kind-of "hexagram 36 style" burrying my light."? I think here lies the key.

Namaste,

Soshin
 
C

candid

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Hi Deanna,

10 (relating) is about treading on the unknown.

11 literally shows the male under the female, for what that's worth? (hint: use your imagination
happy.gif
) There?s much more that can be said about the respective positions of Yin and Yang in this picture. Perhaps another time.

Another attribute of 11 is that its actually working on and with nature which furthers. You're seeking natural, spontaneous amour, but everything takes practice, even spontaneity. Attend an acting class sometime and you'll understand that to become the part you must first know the part. That takes practice. This would also mean that in order to practice, it might be best to allow for 'errors' in judgment or technique. While this initially may detract from the natural flow of things it can evolve into a wider scenario of intimacy between you. That too is a picture of 11.

Its this creative aspect of 11 that promotes freedom and expression.

No plain not followed by a slope. Enjoy progress but don't expect it to last without continued renewal and mutual effort to move forward. And be sure to enjoy the good fortune you already possess.

And a warm welcome, by the way!

C
 

dobro p

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"Hexagram #11 changing to hexagram #10"

You can ignore Hex 10, and just concentrate on the changing lines in Hex 11: 3,4,5 and 6

With all those changing lines, it's a pretty active situation with forces moving in different directions.

11.3 - It's hard work and you have to take the good with the bad. It's tough to do what's right, but there's sincerity in the situation.

11.4 - Use what he's got to offer sincerely. Just avail yourself of it. It's no mistake.

11.5 - This line talks about a high-level union that's really auspicious. It's your call whether you want to interpret the union referred to here on a physical level, an emotional level, or a spiritual level. What do you think?

11.6 - A strong position crumbles, defenses fall apart, orders get issued, and doing what you think is right turns out to involve shame somehow.

It's this last line that makes the reading really interesting. The other three lines give a pretty positive picture of the situation - hard work's required, but you can just take what you need out of it, and it's an auspicious union on some level. But that sixth line's a challenge - it talks about the structure of the situation falling apart, and how it's a mistake to force things, because this situation has the weight of fate behind it, and even doing what you think is right takes you in the wrong direction. In other words, it just ain't gonna work for the time being. But remember - the Yi isn't called the Book of Changes for nothing - the situation's changing as we speak. Plus, these lines you drew describe the situation *right now*, and not forever.

So, how to proceed? Well, if you accept what the oracle's saying, then something like this: work at it, take what you need, be reassured it's an important union, but don't expect the hoped-for results (not now, anyway). Oh, and good luck :)
 

bradford_h

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Hi Deanna-
I made an error and read your post as simply 11.3 to 19, not 10. You don't need people like me adding to your confusion. Sorry. It's more complex than I said.
If what you're hearing still isn't ringing a bell, here are two other methods for when four lines change:
This one comes from Zhuxi of the Song Dynasty (13th century): "When four lines change, we use the two unchanging lines in the resulting hexagram as the prognostication. But we take the lower line as ruler." That's 10.1 and 10.2, emphasizing the first.
This one is called Transitional Hexagrams. Instead of reading 11, 11.3, 11.4, 11.5, 11.6, 10 you read 11.3, 19.4, 54.5, 58.6 and 10.
Heckuva thing for a beginner to have to start with. But in any event, my earlier comment was still about the first step in the process, small achievable goals meeting both of your needs.
b
 

heylise

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Hi, and welcome, Deanna

I don't want to confuse you with yet another view. But maybe it is different, because this is the first one from a woman. Looking from Venus . . .

I think, hex.11 is absolutely great to receive in regard to physical love. It is pure and perfect bliss from Heaven. And it is the hexagram of spring, the character Tai is even exchangeable for a character with the meaning spring and erotic love.

But everyone knows that it is not as easy as that. The Yi itself says: it needs the right 'conduct'. The usual translation of hex.10 is a bit different, but in this context that one sounds a tad strange. And the conduct in these situations is usually the only one nobody teaches to children. We learn all kinds of superfluous petty facts, but not this essential one.

To start with the top line of 11, the one which sounds so bad: things between two people need for walls (or entire bullwarks) falling back into the moat. The line does not say it is wrong, or will result in disaster. It gives only a warning (determination shame) not to go on with it. It may be necessary at some moments, but not the rest of the day - or your life - or with anyone else. This line alone even changes to a beautiful one, about heaven's highway. That is what everyone longs for . . (In hex.26 the top line has a correspondence with 11.6)

The three top lines change all together: all outward appearances, everything you have 'in your own hands', everything conscious, has to change. This entire trigram has to change from earth (surrendering, receiving) to heaven, which is a lot more active. Maybe it is telling you to take more of an initiative. Maybe not especially sexually, but in handling the entire situation.

Line 4: do not depend on the other, do it yourself. My own translation is: "fluttering, fluttering, not rich in (or through) one's neighbor. Not on guard (or no limits) because of truth". Be light, easy, try some humor, make a relaxed and loving atmosphere by being simple and true to yourself.

Line 5: give. In this case your younger sister might be your body, your joy, your words, the look from your eyes. Play a bit like a geisha would, reassure him by being 'a young sister'.

All those lines, if you look at them one by one, change to hexagrams with very good and for the situation very appropriate corresponding lines. Just look at 5.5 or 34.4.

All the lines tell you about how to act, about your bearing, and hex.10 is exactly about that. It talks about the tiger in many lines, because he is the best in regard to moving. Not that this is the right moment to use Tiger-balm, but well- something like that. The tiger walks like a tiger, beautiful, supple, alert. He does nothing not tiger-like, he does only what he truly is, but that he does to the fullest.

I forgot line 3. I think that one simply tells you to forget all your worries. Be open and happy, accept everything the way it is. Hex 19, which is the hex it changes into, is about nearing the other: by seeing and loving him the way he is, without any demands.

Personally I would be very happy with this oracle-answer. Beautiful!

LiSe
 
D

dharma

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my understanding increases everyday! many thanks to each of you for your wonderfully rich interpretations - Soshin, Candid, Dobro, Bradford and esp. LiSe for the Venusian perspective

welcome to Clarity, Deanna!
happy.gif
 

deanna

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wow! thanks for all the responses! so quickly too. I just spent the past hour responding back, went to another webpage to look at the changing line 5, came back and everything i just typed was gone. ARGGggggggh! so I may have to keep this short until i have more time later this afternoon.
You guys have given me alot of clarity on this already!

Soshin: my fears are a result of experiencing his: what i meant by that: for instance many times in the past i have always tried to be myself, be candid open and expressive, but with virtue. I am 38 and he is 28. We've been together 4 years. He's had one serious relationship but only the early stages of it, I had a serious marriage that lasted 11 years. In his eyes I have already lived a lifetime in those 11 years. He fears that i have had better, lived better before him, he fears losing me, he fears that i might want something else: what i have experienced is some really beautiful moments ruined like: i sent him on a scavenger hunt leaving notes all over town, each one with a clue to the next one ending up at a nice local hotel with a pub where we had drinks dinner, etc. beforehand i went up to the room, put on some music lit candles all around the mirrored hot tub, put on something sexy (for the first time) things went ok at first, then he got it in his head "what if she's been here before, done this with someone else, had a better time, then proceeded to ruin the night with unfounded fears and violent outbursts. Things like this comes up in different ranges from sensing that he 'has a wall up' behind it he his fighting off the urge to think the very worst of me to outright verbal ugliness and sometimes physically agressiveness all coming from him. This has cause me to take a more protective stance, protecting him from causing himself mental anguish by just not being completely open or candid or too sexy anymore, diligently watching my "conduct" making it appropriate for him and protecting me from an outburst. I don't like living like this anymore. Like bruce says I want creativity expression and freedom........to take charge of the situation.......Bruce,I see what you mean about "acting and playing the part" i see how it would enhance spontanaity....like doing a lap dance......not totally spontaneous, requires skill, practice and playing a part, would really heat up the sheetl. got to get past the wall of fear and it's obvious that mine is going to have to come down first to grab that tiger by the tail.

Dobro: your words really resonate with me theres alot to think about there, especially what you said about line 6 and shame. There are probably some deep shame issues to be dealt with so that we can come to a place of deeper understanding and conditional acceptance of each other with no fear. I have dealt with most of mine and am grateful for every high and low place i have been in my life, sometimes very painful but i have learned alot, forgiven much (myself and others), my acceptance of bad stuff in my life leading to good and being a big part of what makes me me just scares the crap out of him, because he hasnt completely accepted and loved himself, or loved the sometimes ugly and shameful process of seasons of growth.

Bradford: "This one is called Transitional Hexagrams. Instead of reading 11, 11.3, 11.4, 11.5, 11.6, 10 you read 11.3, 19.4, 54.5, 58.6 and 10."

What?!!!!!!!!! ;-) Where the hell did 19, 54 and 58 come from. 11 by itself is hard enough. I'll catch on though, thanks for the input!


Lyse, i'll get to you later, hubby's home
 

bradford_h

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H Deanna
"Where the hell did 19, 54 and 58 come from? 11 by itself is hard enough. I'll catch on though, thanks for the input!"
Either way, you have the same number of changing lines to read. If the lines change one at a time from the bottom up, this is the sequence of lines you go through. Often the text will be more relevant this way. There's a good reason why but that's what's too complicated.
b
 

heylise

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If I had known this, my reading would have been very different. The 'freezing' was not the problem, only the symptom. I have been offering you an aspirin, not anything near to a cure of headaches.

It is the most difficult thing about reading for someone else: one never knows all circumstances. And even knowing all the facts, there are still many feelings, which are hard to convey.

I will try to look at it again, but I have no idea if I can say anything. I guess the most important thing you need to know, is if it can be solved between the two of you, or inside yourself.

LiSe
 

bradford_h

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Hi Deanna-
The more I ponder this, the more I want to give a nod towards the elephant in the room.
Divination in all its forms, yijing, astrology and tarot included, evolved out of the same social need as today's psychological counseling. It's the same job, dealing with the near future's uncertainties and anxieties. Yet none of us has asked why you two are not communicating better than you are.
Personally I would suggest asking the Yijing a different question - how do you bring this problem out in the open in a pleasant way, freely and frankly discussed between two best friends. How do you make intimacy a shared project and go after it with some gusto.
 

deanna

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lySe, everything you said was wonderful, right on target and all things that i need to do to initiate change and set a better atmosphere for more effective communication and stay true to myself, be a authentic through and through. right now i'm a tiger that walks like a domesticated kitty cat. excellent advice and way more than a mere aspirin! thank you so much. i love your website, by the way!

bradford, yeah i saw an elephant too but it was pink ;-D so i didn't want to mention it.
seriously you are absolutely right about our communication, it's in sad shape he listens through his own fear filters instead of hearing what really is, and my communication skills have weakened, theres just certain things i dont mention anymore it brings out too much negativity in him and subsequently causes me more pain. i get mixed signals from him, when he's not caught up in his drama and being reasonable he'll say "please speak your mind, don't walk on eggshells because of me" then when i do that even in the most gentle of ways it turns bad and he'll say "oh. so now I"M the bad guy, just figures, i'm such a loser, cursed by god,blah blah....." then he'll start beating himself up, making me feel bad for bringing something up. if he's had a few drinks the aggression gets turned on me in anger instead of on himself. i lose either way. dont get me wrong he's not all bad and i dont want to turn my first post into a rant about my husband.....he didn't get a great start...raised by a marine drill seargent who broke his spirit like an enlisted man, since this was family and not the marines, dad didnt rebuild him, just broke him.

"how do you bring this problem out in the open in a pleasant way, freely and frankly discussed between two best friends. How do you make intimacy a shared project and go after it with some gusto."

i love this....thank you, gonna ask that tonight. that would be two seperate questions with 2 throws right? i'll post results if ya'll are still interested in developments. hope i havent rambled too much or gotten too personal with dirty details.
 

soshin

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Well, Deanna...
I'm incredibly sorry, made the same mistake and counted the third line only. With the mowing lines 3, 4, 5 and 6 this one is one of the most interesting castings I ever read of or had myself. Clearly the Yijing has a lot to say about that problem.
After reading your description of the problem he has, the moving lines became clearer to me.
3 to 6 seems to symbolize a development of sorts. All the ups and donws of the way of a relationship. 11 says it is a good one in principle. As you mentioned, the problem lies mostly in his own innermost fears and neurotic tendencies. I guess he's a good and precious partner aside of that - you clearly love him as your partnership endured through all those problems.
So I think the Yi is telling you to teach the tiger in him to be at peace with himself. And with that, he can be at peace with you, and you can step on his tail without being eaten... You are serving as an image, as a mirror to his wounded soul.
Maybe he needs professional help, though.
I'm very curious about the outcome of your next two castings.

Namaste,

Soshin
 

deanna

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Quote Soshin:I guess he's a good and precious partner aside of that - you clearly love him as your partnership endured through all those problems.
So I think the Yi is telling you to teach the tiger in him to be at peace with himself. And with that, he can be at peace with you, and you can step on his tail without being eaten... You are serving as an image, as a mirror to his wounded soul.
Maybe he needs professional help, though."

That is about the sweetest and truest thing i've ever heard! I'm not kidding, my heart expanded and my eyes welled up with tears reading it. I just want to fly to Europe and plant a big smooch on your bald head. And yes, he needs some help, (also insulin dependant diabetic, as if he's not damaged enough) a precious but tortured soul that i'm not letting go of, yet. I'll keep you posted on the next castings. perhaps i can inquire of YI how can i help help him to be at peace with himself. Also since you mentioned the tiger in him..its interesting to know that diabetes is on an energetic level, a 3rd chakra solar plexus disorder. i think he really needs to get in touch with his inner tiger: personal power, self esteem, endurance, ambition, the ability to generate action, handle crisis, courage to take risks and any other third chakra aspect is depleted in him. I'll keep you posted!
 

bradford_h

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Hi again Deanna-
Hexagram 10 is starting to make some sense now, especially Zhuxi's suggestion to look at lines 1 & 2. (BTW Zhuxi was the most respected Yijing philosopher of the 12th century. He lived a lttle later than the other big names, Shao Yong, Zhou Dunyi and Cheng Yi).
I think it's literally about the alternatives for the steps you'll be taking. Maybe business as usual, tiptoeing, playing it safe, with a level of comfort you've already found, but continuing in the same direction into still more of the same.
Or else, taking more deliberate, even drastic, steps, risking the status quo, risking having to move on alone (line 2), or raising the bar and taking it to a whole new level. That would certainly be less comfortable in the short run,
but who knows? I guess that's your risk-benefit assesment. It'd be awfully cool if you could partner up with your husband on this. Is counseling out of the question?
One final thought on line 11.3. Be careful to do just what's needed, don't try to go too far right away. This is how you'd get things back under both your control instead of getting knocked around by swings and extremes. The change that this line makes is about taking charge of the situation, stepping up, owning your center and balance, not everything else.
b
 

soshin

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Hi, Deanna...

blush.gif
Not worth mentioning... But I'm happy it touched something in your soul!!!

bounce.gif


So... back to the work!

Namaste,
Soshin (happy monk)
 
C

candid

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can't change another
32 years I tried

can't heal another
who won't put away their pride

can't expand another
who is small inside

this elephant is too big to hide
and too mean to ride

you're stepping on your own tail
his reform can't help but to fail

take care of yourself
no-one else will
 

soshin

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11, Peace, Prosperity, The Male wants to rise up, the Female is sinking down, so they meet each other and share mutual understanding and therefore the joy of being alone with each other.

3rd line moving:
All feelings are subject to Change. One time high, one time low. What is the need of the innermost heart? Of you? Of him? How can you help each other to grow further? To be at peace is the answer. Peace is only found within, not outside. So meditation is a possibillity, for it lets the heart calm down and see all the changes of emotions as what they are: as mere movements of the waves, which do not really touch the sea.

4th and 5th line moving:
Union out of inner trust and without any traces of "I am better than you are". He can beat himself up, but he will not be able to bring you to the point on which you would believe him. This is showing a deeply rooted carmic connection. What would all those wounded men do without a caring woman at their side? The Venusian approach is the healing one, since the wounds were hit by Mars.

6th line moving:
The stumbling walls... As LiSe said before, this line is not necessarily a "bad" one. It moves to 10,6 which shows that the result will reflect the quality of your (both of you) work with yourselves. 26,6 is also corresponding and - but LiSe said it before... Walking on the highway of heaven.

10, Stepping on the tiger's tail... Yep, finally... Guess, all what can be said about that has already been said.

While writing this I read Candids lines in the Inbox. That's true, too. It needs a lot of work to be done by himself. Nobody can release that from his shoulders but he himself. What you can do: In furthering yourself you are furthering him. The answer lies in your own personal quote. By the way, thank you for that one.

Namaste,

Soshin
 

deanna

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Candid, yeah so true. working on me, accepting him as he is, just want to help him find his peace.

Bradford, yeah, always facing those two choices. i do see more of the same if i continue to tiptoe around the situation. too drastic won't help either unless things just naturally progress that way on their own. Steps need to be taken on my part as you say to own my center and nothing more, take action with regards to taking care of me, let him own his. I do try to hard to carry his problems, I go ahead of him in all things smoothing out the path for him, so it wont be so difficult. and sadly a good bit of this is not to help him (i'm not that saintly yet) but to save me and the kids from having to hear his raging low frustration tolerance. this harms him more than helps him i think but it's hard not to do. he's never going to learn anything if i keep smoothing things out for him, i think i prevent his growth. stepping back and taking care of me might produce and inner strength in me that radiates to him and cause him to realize "maybe i need to get my sh** together too" counselling is not out of the question, just fairly unavailable here and definitely unaffordable, money wise.


Soshin, Calvin and Hobbes pretty much covers it, hilariously sad but true. :-( I hope you'll put your pic back up though, I liked it and i hope i didn't make you blush so bad in the previous post, that you'll remove it for good.
Thanks for your translation of my hexagrams, very encouraging.
you're welcome for the quote, i love that one. Here's another favorite from the same source you might like as well:

"Man may enjoy all good things and mortify himself with bliss........for in all things he preserves the Secret Name of God. He may stand unmoving so that none marks what he is doing, but secretly his spirit burns and he shouts in the silence."
and that is all i know about the baal shem tav.

I cast coins for the three questions that have been brought up in this thread:

How can tough issues be brought into the open to be discussed frankly and freely as between two friends? Hexagram #4 changing to #12 WOW!!!!!!!!!!! if that's not right on! i looked at lySe's site, resonates well with the situation.

Q#2: how do we make intimacy a shared project and go at it with gusto? (thanks bradford)

8 changing to 24

and How can I help him be at peace with his inner tiger?

35 changing to 55

I only got to glance at these, will have to look deeper later. kids going hungry and the house is a mess.
 

soshin

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Hi, Deanna!

Just wanted you to know I'm looking at this after finishing my nightshift. Sounds very interesting at a glance. But pleeeeeze help me next time with naming the moving lines. But it was well worth to search and double-check.

Hopefully I'm right with that:
4, 2+4+5 to 12
8, 1+5 to 24
35, 1+3+6 to 55
(Just wanted to have it triple-checked - those are too important questions). Very first impression: Situation is pretty much on the move...

Namaste and thank you for the Baal Shem Tov.
Btw.: I'm not that shy as it seems... A big
smooch.gif
back from good ol' Europe to you - whoever you are, tiger or rebel...

Soshin
 

heylise

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First impression of 8 to 24: for conquering the flood, it is necessary to cooperate (8) -
By following (or in order to follow again) your own path (24)
LiSe
 

deanna

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Well, these hexagrams seem to depict our conditions pretty clearly. I'm trying to look at things as "I'm not any better or more mature than he is" although that's the first thing i see with hex 4 moving to 12 but i try to look at it in a bigger picture sense and the frame of the question "our communication" is uncultivated and the boundaries of the empire are obliterated. since i always try to look at me first before i place any blame or mistake outside of me I cant help but apply this to me and think that the newness "youthful folly" of my conversation with the Yijing has become an Importunity and vexation to the Yijing, and that maybe my first cast was enough of an answer and i should not have inquired any more so soon. So I think I'm going to abandon these questions for now unless you, my good teachers and cyberfriends, whom I hope i have not vexed, think otherwise. Thanks for all your help thus far, now I'm going to go and educate myself a little more.

peace,
deanna
 

deanna

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Oh yeah, speaking of educating myself, LiSe, where the heck is your website? I keep getting an error message.
 

heylise

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I phoned about the website, I could not open it either. It seems to be a problem since last night, on the server, and they are working hard to fix it. Thanks for warning me.

I don't think hex.4 is always about casting too often. But looking some more to the first casting is indeed a good idea.

About hex.8, you probably wonder were the flood comes from: when the great Yu had conquered the flood, he called all chiefs to an assembly, and organized them so in the future all should stand side by side in the case of calamities. This meeting was 'Bi', the name of hex.8.

LiSe
 

heylise

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An aside, which has nothing to do with any casting: I live since more than 40 years with a man who has very similar reactions.
Lots of 'treading' needed, but there are also lots of rich rewards, lots of hex.11.

In the course of the years it turned out, that what he needed most, was honor, polishing his male pride. Women need admiration too, but rather the hugging kind. Men need feats of war to show off (just meant as illustration).

LiSe
 
C

candid

Guest
LiSe, I love your candor.

In the case of the man you live with, I believe there is honor deserved, wisdom to learn from, and to some degree, to be guided by. There is greatness of soul expressed creatively.

From what little I gathered here, Deanna's situation is quite different. But I could be wrong of course.

C
 
C

candid

Guest
Deanna, your reaction to 4 is one I?ve been familiar with, as mentioned in a recent thread. I wouldn?t apply it as asking too often, as you have not. I?d read it that you are dealing with unknowns, and that the only way to progress is by gradually filling in all the holes and empty places until you can continue on.

?When the spring gushes forth, it doesn't know at first where it will go. But its steady flow fills up the deep place blocking its progress, and success is attained.?

Exactly what success means here, I don?t know. Neither do you. That?s why you got 4.
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