Intuition in Divination

[peter2610]

BUt the real question is "who are you really?" You are not your personality, and you are not the IT that makes choices for you. Without waking up to who one really is, yes, perhaps one is doomed to a certain way of expressing, and to the chain of events that unfold like a steam engine barreling down the hillside. But that is a story, nothing more. at any point in the story, we do actually have the potential to wake up from the dream, and upon awakening, to realize that the story is our creation, the conglomerate of our beliefs. But it is not who we are.

Hi Bamboo,

Your passage, above, could almost have come straight from a Mahayana Buddhist sutra. "You are not your personality" - yep, your personality is impermanent and conditioned by relative formations. It changes and evolves within the course of a lifetime, and from one lifetime to the next.
"and you are not the IT that makes choices for you" - yep, karmic formations encompass the self but they don't define it. We create our own physical environment, and that environment, including the physical body, goes a long way in shaping how others perceive us, but it is not the essential self.
"Without waking up to who one really is, yes, perhaps one is doomed to a certain way of expressing, and to the chain of events that unfold like a steam engine barreling down the hillside" - yep, these could almost be the Buddha's own words (if you changed 'steam engine' for 'elephant' perhaps). Identifying with the conditioned relative self creates attachment to illusory formations which, in turn, create further karmic potentials that unfold, as you say, 'like a steam engine barreling down the hillside' and continue the wheel of rebirth.
"Waking up to who one really is" - this is the process of enlightenment, the realization that the essence of true self, Satya-Atman, is beyond relative form. It is the changeless witness within the conditioned self, indefinable unfathomable and imperishable.

 

[ravenstar]

"Waking up to who one really is" - this is the process of enlightenment, the realization that the essence of true self, Satya-Atman, is beyond relative form. It is the changeless witness within the conditioned self, indefinable unfathomable and imperishable.

Could you expand on this peter? Enlightenment, in my understanding occurs when we begin to consciously reconnect with our essential being, the wise, creative entity at our most inner core. We are spiritual, mental, emotional and physical beings. Enlightenment involves clearing, healing, developing and integrating all four of these levels, doesn't it? Isn't it about living in the moment, being aware....aware of old habits, thoughts, addictions, etc. and learning to let them go?

No matter where or how we start, or how we go about it, isn't there an evolutionary process that unfolds from the spiritual to the the physical. Kind of like a profound spiritual experience that changes our lives forever.......a higher perspective so to speak on life. OR,we start noticing that we keep playing the same role over and over that keeps us stuck, depressed, bored, stressed on the ole hamster wheel.

Thirsting for more, we turn to the I Ching, the tarot, astrology, healing, etc....but the fulfillment of all these forms of divinations and prophecies cannot occur unless we ourselves take action, both inwardly and outwardly to change...to take stock or our lives and decide what to bring along or what to leave behind.

ravenstar

 

[peter2610]

Hello Ravenstar,

Yes, the path to spiritual enlightenment is, I would agree, an evolving process both within individual lifetimes and from one incarnation to the next. It occurs, as you point out, on different levels but the primary goal is one of self-realization through the transformation and integration of ego, the conditioned self, and the unconscious - particularly what is described in Jungian psychology as the 'shadow archetype.'

The approaches to enlightenment are many and the range of individual observations must be countless, hence it's a difficult process to quantify, but I think it's safe to say that, at some point in the process, any individual seeker must recognize the relative, impermanent nature of the conditioned self and, by extension, our external world - the manifest expression of self. The process of culling or transforming our conditioned nature (mundane consciousness) is by far the greater part of the 'work,' and involves purification at the conscious, emotional and unconscious levels - and of these, it is the unconscious level that is both the most difficult, and most important. In Taoism this process is described as 'reversing' aberrant energy and restoring the elixir. Finally, after the incubation of the spiritual embryo, so to speak, comes the eventual realization of the essential Self, the impersonal unconditioned essence that is not dependent upon relative constructs, but is one with the universal consciousness that is both transcendent and yet immanent within all phenomena. At one with the Tao, it is the changeless Essence within all change.
This state of being is described as Nirvana in Buddhism, the attainment of the Gold Elixir in Taoism, and Brahman in Hinduism.

As I mentioned above, the process is an evolving one but spiritual enlightenment can occur in 'flashes' of insight and profound discernment, such as is achieved in Zen meditation. However, I don't see enlightenment as a 'thing' or aspect of self that we can contact at will; it's more of an apophatic process of removing conditioned constructs, rather like peeling an onion, to reveal the core realty. It isn't so much a 'part' of us as it is an emergent state of 'being' - a profound sense of oneness with the universal essence.


That which permeates all, which nothing transcends and which, like the universal space around us, fills everything completely from within and without, that Supreme non-dual Brahman -- that thou art.
Sankaracharya


That in whom reside all beings and who resides in all beings, who is the giver of grace to all, the Supreme Soul of the universe, the limitless being -- I am that.
Amritbindu Upanishad

 

[ravenstar]

As I mentioned above, the process is an evolving one but spiritual enlightenment can occur in 'flashes' of insight and profound discernment, such as is achieved in Zen meditation. However, I don't see enlightenment as a 'thing' or aspect of self that we can contact at will; it's more of an apophatic process of removing conditioned constructs, rather like peeling an onion, to reveal the core realty. It isn't so much a 'part' of us as it is an emergent state of 'being' - a profound sense of oneness with the universal essence.

I have to disagree with this. As Ken Wilbur once said "the enlightened Self is one hundred percent present in your very perception of this page. Enlightened Spirit is that which is reading these words right now, how much closer can you possibly get".

Zen Master Huang Po, was quoted as saying "That there is no reaching enlightenment is not idle talk, it is the truth. Hard is the meaning of this saying!"

And this too ".......Buddha was raised in the belly of the world, as a prince in a castle. He had everything. He was married, he had a child, he had wealth. He was the epitome of the worldly being. So then, as an antidote to such worldliness, he went into seclusion, into renunciation, into asceticism. But it is said that the moment he finally enlightened was when, after weeks of fasting to the point of emaciation, he accepted a bowl of milk. He drank it and said "How wonderful. All things are enlightened exactly as they are." And it was from that renunciation that the "middle way" came to be known. But he had to now both of those extremes. He had to know total worldliness and he had to know total renunciation for him to come to the middle way - which is living at play in the fields of the Lord, knowning that we are from somewhere else on a visit here on planet earth and are put here to enjoy the beauty and to learn from the suffering, to live as human beings." Elizabeth Lesser

I could not have written these any better, which is why I left them just as they are.

And yes I am definitely a Jungian junky LOL!

ravenstar

 

[sooo]

Zen Master Huang Po, was quoted as saying "That there is no reaching enlightenment is not idle talk, it is the truth. Hard is the meaning of this saying!"

And this too ".......Buddha was raised in the belly of the world, as a prince in a castle. He had everything. He was married, he had a child, he had wealth. He was the epitome of the worldly being. So then, as an antidote to such worldliness, he went into seclusion, into renunciation, into asceticism. But it is said that the moment he finally enlightened was when, after weeks of fasting to the point of emaciation, he accepted a bowl of milk. He drank it and said "How wonderful. All things are enlightened exactly as they are." And it was from that renunciation that the "middle way" came to be known. But he had to now both of those extremes. He had to know total worldliness and he had to know total renunciation for him to come to the middle way - which is living at play in the fields of the Lord, knowning that we are from somewhere else on a visit here on planet earth and are put here to enjoy the beauty and to learn from the suffering, to live as human beings." Elizabeth Lesser

I could not have written these any better, which is why I left them just as they are.

I originally thought these were your words, and it was all I could do to not stand and applaud.

"His disciples said to him: On what day will the kingdom come? <Jesus said>: It cometh not with observation. They will not say: Lo, here! or: Lo, there! But the kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it." Gospel of Thomas 113

 

[peter2610]

Not completely sure what you're saying here. If it's that we are all actually already 'enlightened' as we are, then there is no process or path to follow - and many millions of unfortunate people throughout history have mistakenly wasted many years of their lives.

As for Huang Po, I couldn't agree more. It's not a 'part' of consciousness that we strive to 'reach'. The more effort you put into such a directed 'goal' the more you would fail to reach it. It's an emergent realization of a latent but ever-present state of being that always was, and always will be at the core of self. You 'reach' it by 'not reaching for it' if you see what I mean.

Glad you like Jung, so do I.

PS: I wouldn't do too much Ken Wilber, he was ok up until about when he wrote The Atman Project, but then he went off on a bit of a tangent. You'll get far more mileage out of Paul Brunton, or, better still, just read the original Vedas and Sutras.

Got to get some sleep now, catch up with you later.

 

[Tohpol]

As for Huang Po, I couldn't agree more. It's not a 'part' of consciousness that we strive to 'reach'. The more effort you put into such a directed 'goal' the more you would fail to reach it. It's an emergent realization of a latent but ever-present state of being that always was, and always will be at the core of self. You 'reach' it by 'not reaching for it' if you see what I mean.

And it's the process of 'not reaching it' that requires 'effort' lol....*

Topal

 

[peter2610]

And it's the process of 'not reaching it' that requires 'effort' Lol

Exactly.

 

[ravenstar]

As for Huang Po, I couldn't agree more. It's not a 'part' of consciousness that we strive to 'reach'. The more effort you put into such a directed 'goal' the more you would fail to reach it. It's an emergent realization of a latent but ever-present state of being that always was, and always will be at the core of self. You 'reach' it by 'not reaching for it' if you see what I mean.

I will search out Paul Brunton and the others, thanks! And yes, I quite agree with what you've said and topal too! If we are on a constant search for enlightenment then we will constantly seek it outside of ourselves, like looking for that elusive carrot that's always just beyond our reach.

And yes it is that darn 'shadow' our 'inner conflict', saboteur that drives away our peace of mind, health and potential. An enormous amount of effort and energy is needed to to hold a self-created image of Self....it also puts alot of strain on the body!

The I Ching, and other modes of divination help us to become aware of our monkey minds, habits, fears and routines that prevent us from seeing fully. They open 'our eye of wisdom'.....the window to higher wisdom and intuition. And this in turn feeds the brain, eyes, ears, nose, pineal and pituitary glands of the body. We are no longer guided by past images.....we are no longer unaware of life or unconsciously sleeping and drifting along in it. We are participating in it and connected to the Taos creative, energy-rich currents and to the web of life.

ravenstar

 

[sooo]

"Joy is only one consequence of living life correctly. When it becomes the pursuit in itself, then life gets turned around and the effect starts to act like a cause." Bradford H. 58.6

This is also applicable to meditation and terms such as enlightenment.

 

[peter2610]

If we are on a constant search for enlightenment then we will constantly seek it outside of ourselves, like looking for that elusive carrot that's always just beyond our reach.

Imagine the Self/Essence as a radiant diamond wrapped in many layers of delicately coloured, translucent paper. The light from the diamond shines through the layers of paper, but is modified by their various colours. Your sense of 'self' (with a small-s) is largely identified with these layers of paper; they are the conditioned constructs, the aggregates of 'self' that comprise of the various mental, emotional, moral, and egoic qualities that constitute your present sense of who you are. These aggregates have been acquired, not just in this lifetime, but over the course of many lifetimes; they are the qualities that cling to your essence from one lifetime to the next, the apparel of the soul - the work in progress, so to speak, and they determine your next incarnation. I say 'work in progress' because it is these layers that we work on from one incarnation to the next as we purify and/or peel them away to reveal the full radiance of the diamond. And the closer we approach this radiant essence, the more we begin to understand its impersonal nature. The reason Sankaracharya describes Brahman as 'non-dual' is probably one of the most important points you'll ever come across.

You might ask, why not just cut through the layers and go straight for the Essence, and this is the crucial bit. Essence isn't conditioned, you can't objectify it, so you can't 'go for it' in a direct sense - it would be like trying to catch the wind with your fingers. It isn't a 'thing' that you can grasp, it's an emergent state of being that emerges with greater and greater strength and clarity as you strip away the layers of conditioning (Maya). The purpose of meditating on Zen Koans is to help break down the conditioned constructs of mind, but no matter by which path you choose to remove these layers, be it a Christian, Daoist, Buddhist or any other path, the task is the same. At some stage you will have to face that which you least wish to face.

 

[ginnie]

I too am so aware what the USA was intended to have been, having grown up in Philadelphia down the street from the Liberty Bell

My ancestors came from around Philadelphia. I know there's a lot of hatred of Americans in the world right now, as I have experienced it first-hand.

I make every effort not to be dragged down by stuff happening in the outer world, to other people, or to myself. Greater understanding is always close by.

 

[arabella]

I make efforts to transcend the hatred as well. It's just a bit harder when it's not the news telling you how Americans are looked down on, but your neighbor. It's been a real eye-opener and for the first several years I was shocked, then angry, then depressed. The normal grief process I suppose. More lately I've tried to see dispassionately why this has happened and some of it is foreign jealousy of Americans and some is misguided attitudes fueled by misinformation, but there are also places where the American government and American corporate stupidity in particular have hung the average US citizen out to dry -- especially if they are living outside the country. And the media uses exaggerated portrayals of Americans and international dislike of the country to sell it's stories -- probably the most immoral of all.

 

[heylise]

My experience with finding the Self is a simple one. As if suddenly no grown-up person is looking out of my eyes anymore, but a child. Happy, open, genuine.

What they call maya is very close by. Your conceptions of how things should be and should be done, how the neighbors judge you, that some things are impossible but in reality it is your own fear or preconception or the way you have been raised and lived for many years which make them impossible. Your worries for the future or all those things from the past which cling to you.

Find something you love to do and get totally immersed in it, forgetting the time and where you are. Then you know a little bit of how enlightenment feels. Not that you can consciously think that - as soon as you know about enlightenment and such things, you're not anymore in your play, and it is gone.

 

[ravenstar]

Imagine the Self/Essence as a radiant diamond wrapped in many layers of delicately coloured, translucent paper. The light from the diamond shines through the layers of paper, but is modified by their various colours. Your sense of 'self' (with a small-s) is largely identified with these layers of paper; they are the conditioned constructs, the aggregates of 'self' that comprise of the various mental, emotional, moral, and egoic qualities that constitute your present sense of who you are. These aggregates have been acquired, not just in this lifetime, but over the course of many lifetimes; they are the qualities that cling to your essence from one lifetime to the next, the apparel of the soul - the work in progress, so to speak, and they determine your next incarnation. I say 'work in progress' because it is these layers that we work on from one incarnation to the next as we purify and/or peel them away to reveal the full radiance of the diamond. And the closer we approach this radiant essence, the more we begin to understand its impersonal nature. The reason Sankaracharya describes Brahman as 'non-dual' is probably one of the most important points you'll ever come across.

You might ask, why not just cut through the layers and go straight for the Essence, and this is the crucial bit. Essence isn't conditioned, you can't objectify it, so you can't 'go for it' in a direct sense - it would be like trying to catch the wind with your fingers. It isn't a 'thing' that you can grasp, it's an emergent state of being that emerges with greater and greater strength and clarity as you strip away the layers of conditioning (Maya). The purpose of meditating on Zen Koans is to help break down the conditioned constructs of mind, but no matter by which path you choose to remove these layers, be it a Christian, Daoist, Buddhist or any other path, the task is the same. At some stage you will have to face that which you least wish to face.

Hi peter,

I like your idea of the diamond wrapped in layers of transparent paper. Other ways of seeing these layers are with beads on a double string (yin/yang). Each string is attached to the 'root' or joined to the fastening. Another analogy is the making of a candle with many layers (subtle bodies)...similar to the souls journey towards incarnation. Within each layer is placed a gift (crystals/stones/talismans). To retrieve this gift the candle must be lit and its wax slowly gives way to reveal the gifts between each layer.

To quote the 'master', Carl Jung "The Persona is, as the name suggests a mask of the collective psyche, a mask that pretends to have individuality, so that one convinces oneself and others that one is an individual, while in fact the whole thing is nothing but a clever piece of play-acting in which the lines are spoken by the collective psyche....."

We are unconsciously programmed by society, our parents, teachers, media, government, advertising etc. At some point in our live we have to dispose of the 'garbage' that has accumulated over time or as you mentioned 'peel away the layers to get to the radiance of the diamond. In mythology we have seen this with Hercules and the Hydra, The rape of Persephone, Inanna and Ereshkigal...to name a few.

Hercules, Persephone and Inanna were each forced or drawn to the underworld to seek healing and put themselves back together again. With each myth something was aroused and reawakened that was buried deep within. To heal their wounds, they had to bring them to the surface and expose them to the light of the sun.

Science has taken on the flavor of myths too, e.g., the chaos theory....we now look for flow pattens rather than cause/effect for explanations. And even invisible quantum waves and their mysterious behavior with matter and energy.

Meditation was the crux or beginning of my journey. It lead to me to several modes of alternative healing. I learnt that pain is a messenger leading us to important news about our life and current situations. When we try to shut out pain, tension or dis-ease, we are only forcing them to shout louder to get our attention.

Hearing what the body is trying to tell you requires patience and practice. Until the body becomes accustom to meditating or being still, it will protest. We may have the urge to cough or sneeze.....we may feel itchy and want to scratch. Willing it away won't work, becoming aware and identifying with the pain will.

During a Buddhist retreat Anthony Mello recounts what he experienced.....excruciating pain in his knees and back while in the lotus position.

"I decided not to fight it, not to run away from it, not to desire to alleviate it, but to become aware of it, to identify with it. I broke the pain sensation up into its component parts and I discovered to my surprise, that it was composed of many sensations, not just one; there was an intense burning sensation a pulling and a tugging, a sharp, shooting sensation that merged every now and then....and a point which kept moving from one place to another. This point I identified as the pain.....As I kept up with this awareness exercise I found I was bearing the pain quite well and even had some awareness left over for other sensations in other parts of my body. For the first time in my life I was experiencing pain without suffering."

In all my ramblings I think I've found the next entry to my blog

To finish this extremely long post, I have found that whenever I need to be conscious of something in my life, something or someone synchronistically seems to arrive at my doorstep. Helping others has helped me too. Many times their pain has stirred up intense images or as Jung would say archetypes from the depth of my psyche/unconscious that need to be healed.

ravenstar

 

[maremaria]

the Hero's journey. over and over again...