Is she A Friend?

[justa]

I have noticed a change in a close friend who I have spent lots of time with. We met in unusual circumstances in a support group and we formed a close bond. I see now that this has become majorly co-dependant and also that she has mental health issues concerning delusions of grandiosity. She was sectioned several years ago after a psychotic episode, though is very evasive about her diagnoses etc.
I am not scared of her, but fond in many ways, though there has been a shift in this friendship somewhere and there is now tension between us. I have started questioning how this friendship is actually benefiting me and I really feel that it actually is not, and she is taking, taking,taking plus being really manipulative and almost controlling me with subtle means. What I mean is she is a strong character and I have realised I am frightened of her moods and the atmosphere they bring so I kiond of stroke her ego and feel manipulated into even giving her possesions that she admires, not much, a couple of items of clothing, some expensive make-up that kind of thing. I have recently lost lots of weight and she keeps telling me I am getting too skinny. (not true I feel)

I consulted asking what emotions my new look provoked in her and recieved 41/2/6 changing to 24

What kind of a friend she really is to me: 48/1 changing to 5

what did I need to be aware of concerning her 16/1/4/5 changing 3

Where should I be wary 17/3/5 changing 30

I see that 41 states she maybe jealous?

48 something amiss in friendship?

Not sure about 16?

and I really don't get 17?

Please help, this causing me stress
Thanks guys
xxx

 

[mudpie]

I consulted asking what emotions my new look provoked in her and recieved 41/2/6 changing to 24

she really does think you have lost too much weight, and wants you to gain!

What kind of a friend she really is to me: 48/1 changing to 5

does not seem like this friendship is very healthful for you. in fact, it is un-healthful

what did I need to be aware of concerning her 16/1/4/5 changing 3

she is inspired by you...she may be a lost soul looking for someone to guide her, but 16.5 is not a happy line...she might be a chronic drain on you

Where should I be wary 17/3/5 changing 30
30 is about what and who you interact with....17.3/5 is probably the ideal for choosing friendships/relationships. to choose maturity and to look for the highest calibre of friendship. thats an issue here.

perhaps you need to be wary of your own choices ....are you actually pursuing this without being aware of it? stroking her ego and giving her things of yours encourages the friendship, and your motivation for doing this is what you might want to look at.

HOwever, in light of your question : where should I be wary? this response could also mean that she puts you on a pedastal and will pursue this friendship with devotion......you might need to be wary of that.

 

[Trojina]

I think 41.2.6 is referring to you not her - advising you to give her as much as you feel comfortable with but not to overstretch yourself and line 6 perhaps you could consider having less of an individual frienship maybe meet up in a group more.

 

[Tohpol]

What kind of a friend she really is to me: 48/1 changing to 5

what did I need to be aware of concerning her 16/1/4/5 changing 3

Where should I be wary 17/3/5 changing 30

I see that 41 states she maybe jealous?

48 something amiss in friendship?

Not sure about 16?

and I really don't get 17?

Please help, this causing me stress
Thanks guys
xxx

This is very clear indeed and you don't need the I Ching to tell you much in fact. This is how I see it:

"Delusions of grandiosity" - in other words, she's a narcissist.

"Majorly co-dependent" - she needs other people's energy to sustain her life.

You feel manipulated? That's because you are being manipulated. That's what such people do and they are masters at it. I bet you can't think properly when you are around her right? Like your brain is befuddled and "muddy"? You better believe she's "taking, taking, taking" - you are prime energy real-estate. The "close bond" was the set up I'm afraid.

She is not evil or anything, she's just damaged. And when folks are broken then they tend to look for the energy elsewhere because they are not able or choose not to develop it within themselves. You have been easy "food" it seems.

I think it's very interesting you've lost weight - has that happened since you've been interacting with her? (that's slightly tongue-in-cheek - but only slightly)

What kind of friend is she? 48.1 Talk about flashing warning lights. Meeting in a group setting I would suggest is the only way forward. But you must protect yourself from such intrusions.

Topal

 

[Trojina]

I recently attended a day course where the idea being shared was that whatever we meet in another is nothing but a reflection of ourselves. I can't say I grasped it fully but it was something like the thought we have about ourselves is reflected in what the other shows to us - hence defensiveness etc is not the way forward. And these ideas were based in the belief that the only reality is love all else is illusion including beliefs about ourselves and others. I think these ideas were coming roughtly from 'A Course in Miracles' which i know little about but i guess similar ideas crop up allover the place - hmm still they have given me much to think about and i can't say I as yet wholly buy the idea that when someone is unpleasant to me I should be grateful that they they reveal to me a thought i hold about myself, lol. Right now all i can see is that these things may be true on some level but not practically in my life as it is now.

However the reason i bring this up is because I see Topals suggestions coming from almost the opposite end of the spectrum - like there are these people out there who are manipulative and so on and we must know how to deal with them and protect ourselves from them. But the way i see it the joke is these manipulative people are probably reading books about each other ie I think you are manipulative and read up and you think i am manipulative and read up - and all the time we are dealing with people as if they are case studies to be dealt with on an intellectual level, not connecting with our hearts in anyway

I'm not saying theres no truth or value in being aware of peoples psychologies(its always interesting) but as with the 'we are just reflections of each other' I can't wholly buy it either,as its so subjective. How would Justas friend depict the relationship for example -

I really wouldn't like to say Justas friend is jealous, more like I'd ask the question why is Justa so concerned with how her friend sees her weight loss ? If women are honest half the fun they get in losing weight is to show off to other women and make them jealous lol and some would say the jealousy is Justas projection - unless she herself has been jealous of thinner women how would she imagine this woman is jealous of her. For all we know maybe Justa is looking too thin and the friend is being honest, we don't know.

I'm not intending to critisize others views here just trying to work it out in my own head - how much do we locate a fault in another, how much do we look to ourselves ?

 

[Tohpol]

I recently attended a day course where the idea being shared was that whatever we meet in another is nothing but a reflection of ourselves. I can't say I grasped it fully but it was something like the thought we have about ourselves is reflected in what the other shows to us - hence defensiveness etc is not the way forward. And these ideas were based in the belief that the only reality is love all else is illusion including beliefs about ourselves and others. I think these ideas were coming roughtly from 'A Course in Miracles'

Hi Trojan,

As was discussed on the YCYOR threads (here and here) which I think were quite useful in this regard, what seems to be the case it that there is very much truth in such a premise but with a lot of caveats which I think are very important.

Yes, very often I think the people are very much a reflection of ourselves. And yes, the things we most criticize in others are often deeply seated aspects of ourselves. No arguments on that score. The problems comes when these things are mixed into a pou-pourri of platitudes and simplifications.

"The only reality is Love and all else is illusion." Well, sure! I heartily agree with such an idea. And I could jump from A- z in the process and I would be an enlightened being! Trouble is, we can't do that. I think it's an incremental learning process. We make a choice as to what's going on and choose to disengage from healthy encounters. The disengaging process requires knowledge of the signs to look for. That doesn't mean acting against anyone just protecting and defending your centre just like you protect your ears from a loud noise or when you stop and look for traffic when you want to cross the road. Sure, all is love and everything is illusion but that bus will still hit me if I cross the road at the wrong time. When you refuse to be manipulated that is what you are doing - holding onto your energy - your integrity and right not to be manipulated. There are most definitely dynamics to look out for.

i can't say I as yet wholly buy the idea that when someone is unpleasant to me I should be grateful that they they reveal to me a thought i hold about myself, lol. Right now all i can see is that these things may be true on some level but not practically in my life as it is now.

Precisely. True on some level. Not at this level. I think we can be grateful for those people who show us things about ourselves. I'm sure the millions of victims murdered by Pol-pot in Cambodia weren't exactly grateful but if their deaths taught us why and how such atrocities occur in order to prevent such things happening again, then this could be seen as a partial victory. Similarly, many such acts happen because people believe others while ignoring the signs. Whether collectively or in individual relationships. I think this level is about learning to see the choices in front of us - learning to see - and then applying it. I think that "Love in our hearts" is not enough - it has to be objectively applied and given active release.

However the reason i bring this up is because I see Topals suggestions coming from almost the opposite end of the spectrum - like there are these people out there who are manipulative and so on and we must know how to deal with them and protect ourselves from them.

That is the reality. At the same time, the only way to disengage from manipulative behaviour and draining situations is to recognise it in ourselves first. We all do it to different degrees. We are imperfect, fallible etc. But there are extremes of such dynamics that make victims of people everyday and it happens more often than not because they are not reading the signs and/or they are repeating a learned pattern of unacknowledged behaviour. The only way to stop that pattern is to become informed and to recognise when we attract such people into our lives. Disengaging can only be done when you know and can see what you are disengaging yourself from.

But the way i see it the joke is these manipulative people are probably reading books about each other ie I think you are manipulative and read up and you think i am manipulative and read up - and all the time we are dealing with people as if they are case studies to be dealt with on an intellectual level, not connecting with our hearts in anyway

This is not about books or an exercise in intellectual curiosity. It is about survival skills if we are to make progress in "connecting with the heart" i.e. healing the emotions and disbursing that love we can feel for others. Which is why I think it's so important and why I always blether on about it.

You're looking at this as if there is a separation between heart (emotions) and intellect.
I don't think there is. " Emotions infuse everything. Thus the psychology of our interaction with people is vital. Communicating, feeling, learning and understanding ourselves is ALL about emotions and we use the intellect as a tool to attain that emotional equilibrium.

I'm not saying theres no truth or value in being aware of peoples psychologies(its always interesting) but as with the 'we are just reflections of each other' I can't wholly buy it either,as its so subjective. How would Justas friend depict the relationship for example

There are certain patterns to discern based on everyone's experience (go to forums on personality disorders and you will a consensus) which are not subjective but based on hard won experience where folks are helping others to avoid similar unhealthy encounters. Nothing subjective about that. But as to Justa's case - yes, maybe it is she that is merely projecting all of her stuff onto the other person. We can't know as with most of these "sharings." Sometimes we have to take it on face value.

I really wouldn't like to say Justas friend is jealous, more like I'd ask the question why is Justa so concerned with how her friend sees her weight loss ? If women are honest half the fun they get in losing weight is to show off to other women and make them jealous lol and some would say the jealousy is Justas projection - unless she herself has been jealous of thinner women how would she imagine this woman is jealous of her. For all we know maybe Justa is looking too thin and the friend is being honest, we don't know.

Sure the weight issue is the platform but not the core reason I think. The response from Yi seemed to be fairly clear. Or at least, so I think...but you make some good points not to jump to conclusions.

I'm not intending to critisize others views here just trying to work it out in my own head - how much do we locate a fault in another, how much do we look to ourselves ?

We do both. Not projecting nor becoming self-obsessed - there can be a balance perhaps?

Topal

 

[justa]

Thank you Listener, Topal and Trojan,
Hmmm, food for thought (no pun intended) and yes Listener I am aware that I have been pursuing this friendship without being aware as it were and yes Topal, I feel muddy, foggy and befudled, not to mention exhausted after prolonged visits from her. She and I are both damaged, that is why we are in the support group! We both grew up in alcoholic homes and are recovering ourselves from various addictions!
She, however is a serial relapser and I (God willing, so far) am solidly sober. The thing is that I am aware that I am a caretaker/co-dependant, this is unbelievbly common for adult children (those who grew up in alcoholic homes) we caretake from an early age, of the addict parent, younger siblings, the home...you name it! We do it because our lives depend on someone being in charge! This is me! I am a classic case, however I am stopping the buck. Through the personal development and therapy I am undergoing, I am begining to reach a place of awareness. I have mentioned my friend's background, she has other stuff and yes it is my opinion that she does suffer from narcissism/histrionic personality, whatever you wish to call it. It's a bit like wound matching, she latched onto me, because something in her recognised that I was the most able to fullfill her needs. She is an energy vampire, if you like and on an unconcious level I was a willing participent. Because I have taken care of other people's needs before my own all my life (until now, that is) As for the weight loss thing, Trojan, I have lost weight because I needed too! Not to make other women jealous. Yes now I am achieving my aim there is a certain amount of pride 90Ibs is a lot of baggage and there is certainly vanity somewhere. I feel and look good and I am benefiting as a result. but the reason it concerned me is because I no longer will allow others to sabotage my plans for a healthy and fulfilling life. I did that myself for far to long. When we met I was the polar opposite of what I am now. I was a very ill person. I was bloated, meek and introverted and my family and friends thought I would probably die within two years. I had been a model in my youth and had had some success at this, I understand that for a woman like my friend my return to health must have been somewhat shocking, but it is an inside job. I am still learning all the time and my radar is skewiff. The mirror tells me I look fine, the scales tell me I am healthy, other people tell me I am looking great, but that voice of sabotage is listening, waiting to pounce on the negative because that is all it believes. I understand the concept of other people mirroring us and I agree with it up to a point. However, I see as only a tiny part of human relations. We all need to connect on a heart level, for goodness sake, what a barren world we would live in if we didn't, but we need to prtect ourselves first! Don't we?

Justa x

 

[Trojina]

Well I am going off topic here but while I see most of your points Topal I don't have faith in the objectivity of labels like 'codependence' 'energy vampires' and so on - I think these are descriptions that have a resonance in our world right now - a way of seeing relations with others but i don't see they have truly objective truth. If you look at diagnostic labelling in the past it always reflects the values and general neurosis of society at the time rather than any kind of almost medical condition. Homosexuality was once a diagnosable 'condition'

Of course theres a whole language people used to define their situations with others and it in turn defines their thinking about it. Personally I think calling oneself 'damaged' isn't such a great idea - its a label, well perhaps sometimes its helpful but just as often I think it unhelpful.

 

[doingnotdoing]

Personally I think calling oneself 'damaged' isn't such a great idea - its a label, well perhaps sometimes its helpful but just as often I think it unhelpful.

I agree with trojan on this one. There's a developing school of psychology that's known as Health Realization/Innate Health that works from the assumption that everyone has an extraordinary store of deep health and wisdom within them at all times, but we fail to see it in ourselves (or others) by continually attempting to define ourselves.

I've had some exposure to this approach through a company I worked for, and I must say it makes a difference in how you approach yourself and others when you begin to see that we're all basically fine, and just tend to get in our own way with our personal thinking. None of us are damaged in any permanent sense - but we can sure convince ourselves that we (or they) are.

 

[Tohpol]

I agree with trojan on this one. There's a developing school of psychology that's known as Health Realization/Innate Health that works from the assumption that everyone has an extraordinary store of deep health and wisdom within them at all times, but we fail to see it in ourselves (or others) by continually attempting to define ourselves.

I've had some exposure to this approach through a company I worked for, and I must say it makes a difference in how you approach yourself and others when you begin to see that we're all basically fine, and just tend to get in our own way with our personal thinking. None of us are damaged in any permanent sense - but we can sure convince ourselves that we (or they) are.

This is great and certainly has validity - I'm all for it. However, it fails to address the endemic manifestations of narcissism and forms of psychopathology which are far more prevalent then people have been led to believe. The above is fine for basic emotional misunderstandings; blocks and childhood conditioning etc. but the vast majority of serious problems we have in society are not going to met by people thinking that "we are all basically fine" (even when in spiritual/philosphical sense we surely are).

Sure, everyone does have an "extraordinary store of health and wisdom" but this is of little help when you're confronted by someone who is incapable of seeing or chooses not to see such a concept because s/he believes s/he can do no wrong or that his pathology dismisses any kind of reasoning in favour of persistent deviousness and manipulation. Such new "tools" are just internalized and used as more ways to pull the wool over our eyes. I know from my own experience and from others this causes huge suffering and it is still a hugely underestimated phenomena.

Topal

 

[mudpie]

I think both sides of the argument have merit. Surely the people who come into our lives and who trouble us are reflecting something about us back to us......but that doesnt mean tit for tat....e.g. people who are practiced at care-taking with dysfunctional others will attract the "vampires" ( loose term) who feed on that.

I agree with Topal that it is right and good to name the dynamic. Once you can bring the dynamic to light, you can begin to take responsibity for the part you play. Justa seems to be doing this. The Course in Miracles emphasizes that evrythng we see/experience is a construct we have created. Then it emphasizes forgiveness......and forgiveness is not a process of being "kind" or one of "lovingly accepting" toxic behavior, it is coming to know that what you are seeing/experincing is not real in the truest sense , but a construct of your own, and that you can transform this construct.

When you can accept and see that you are colluding with perceived "victimizers," you forgive yourself for creating such a concept. It doesnt mean you have to amputate the person from your life, but it DOES mean that you can become very clear on what you do want, for yourself. It is never about fingerpointing or blame actually. It is just reaching the point where you can peacefully say to people or events that "you are not working for me anymore, and I bless you and wish you the best, but this situation doenst work for me."

If you are truly clear about this (and mostly clear on your own worthiness) then the person or situation will most likely fade from your life, even if there are times when you need to keeping being clear. No blame, no guilt. In truth, neither you nor her are "damaged" just miscreating a concept togther which has happily provided the opportunity for YOU to transform . The other person has the opportunity too, but she is not the focus for you. She will either rise to the opportunity or fade from your life. You can't "fix" a person but your own clarity is a lamp. Darkness will either join the light or slink off into the shadows. they won't subsist together.

 

[doingnotdoing]

This is great and certainly has validity - I'm all for it. However, it fails to address the endemic manifestations of narcissism and forms of psychopathology which are far more prevalent then people have been led to believe. The above is fine for basic emotional misunderstandings; blocks and childhood conditioning etc. but the vast majority of serious problems we have in society are not going to met by people thinking that "we are all basically fine" (even when in spiritual/philosphical sense we surely are).

Sure, everyone does have an "extraordinary store of health and wisdom" but this is of little help when you're confronted by someone who is incapable of seeing or chooses not to see such a concept because s/he believes s/he can do no wrong or that his pathology dismisses any kind of reasoning in favour of persistent deviousness and manipulation. Such new "tools" are just internalized and used as more ways to pull the wool over our eyes. I know from my own experience and from others this causes huge suffering and it is still a hugely underestimated phenomena.

Topal

There’s no doubt that egomania is the source of many problems Topal, but I think some clarification is important. No one that I’m aware of who’s involved with HR/IH would ever suggest that the idea is to just “think we’re all basically fine”. They are not advocating a new spin on the ‘power of positive thinking’, or a new tool to learn and apply.

HR/IH suggests that we learn to become aware of our own thought processes and evaluate HR ideas from an experiential standpoint, not an intellectual one. There are actually many parallels between Health Realization and Eastern philosophy, IMHO. Understanding HR has been tremendously helpful for me personally, which is why I shared it.

I’ve often felt that the mechanism of the I Ching involves bringing our innate wisdom to our conscious awareness. The goal of the Health Realization approach is to help people align with their wisdom consistently throughout their lives. (So is the Course in Miracles, IMHO). HR’s not about believing that one has a store of wisdom within, it’s about living from that store of wisdom, which is of great help when confronted with all kinds of dysfunctional people, in my experience.

It’s not an approach that can be hijacked by narcissists, because I think we’d all agree that wisdom is incompatible with narcissism.

 

[Tohpol]

It’s not an approach that can be hijacked by narcissists, because I think we’d all agree that wisdom is incompatible with narcissism.

Thank you for your lucid clarification DND - I appreciate it. I also think that such a system sounds very useful indeed. In fact, I might have a look! Nothing against such ways of bettering ourselves. My point was to draw attention to the fact that psychopaths and narcissists don't have the same nature of interpreting reality as we do and if we are not fully cognizant of their ways, we can fall into their trap very easily indeed.

Unfortunately any system of self-help and spiritual understanding can be and has been hijacked, most frequently within the New Age philosophies which, IMO is riven with often very subtle twists and distortions. Wisdom is indeed incompatible with narcissism and any other pathology. However, it doesn't stop such people utilizing such tools and mimicking the results for continued self-aggrandizement. Which is why I stress the importance of seeing the signs and educating ourselves as to the pathologies along with the whatever self-help system has been adopted.

Until you actually go there and immerse yourself in the literature and have been on the sharp end of how such people operate I think it's really hard to grasp the sheer cunning that can be apparent in such dynamics.

Anyway, I'll shut up now.

Topal

 

[doingnotdoing]

All good points above, Topal. I just hate to see the 'baby tossed out with the bathwater, especially when it appears to me that the HR folks are on to something important, an understanding of the relationship between Psychology and spirituality.

Now, I too will shut up!