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Is the Yi pulling my leg?

marceline

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Hi Folks,
This is my first post but have been reading with interest for a few weeks. I find the Yi very useful and it's answers either right on the button or totally baffling!I have an ongoing relationship issue which I ponder rather than taking action on. Put simply, I adore someone who is already in a relationship, although we get on like a house on fire, he hasn't worked out yet I'm the cat's pyjamas. The Yi consistently advises not taking any action, obstacles etc. Lots of receptive devotion going on for me but I'm running out of ideas how to move forward. In sheer desperation I asked 'What would be the result of sending X a love letter?' Response Hex 14.5> Hex 1. I have read interpretations of the line that warn against being too accessible but others are unreservedly positive. What do others think of this line? This one has got me really confused. Also, what are these really positive readings that pop out of nowhere? or out of a series of less encouraging readings? I'd love to know others experience.Best Wishes to all.
 

gsirek

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First I need to tell you I am fairly new to I Ching. I use this forum to help me with my own castings. I think your answer is in the text for the transforming 5th line. The Wilhelm/Baynes translation I have says, "Six in the fifth place means: The person whose truth is accessible, yet dignified, has good fortune." I would say go ahead and send the love letter. You are the fifth line, this is a place of honor for this hexagram. There will be difficulties to overcome but nothing that is insurmountable. Good luck.
Gordon
 

rosada

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I think "DIGNIFIED" is the key word here. If you are accessible to your friend he should be able to figure out for himself if he wants to get anything started between you - no need for you to do anything that might be questionable.
 

mudpie

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You say a really positive reading pops out after a series of less encouraging readings? I think that is key, and my advce is to go back to the very first reading and ponder it. Because YES, I do think the Yi will "pull your leg" if you dont accept the first
"unencouraging" readings and keep throwing coins hoping to be more encouraged. I have found this to definitely be true.....and 14.5 is like an ultimate encouraging line.

Consider that
Maybe the I Ching is saying....LOOK, I gave you the truth (14) now USE IT (1)
 

Trojina

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Yes from my personal experience with this line i think Rosada is right, dignity is important here. Consider your own dignity in how accessible you make yourself to this person in the letter. This seems to be a fundamental issue in your decision to send the leter or not - and of course what you decide to put in the letter.

Maybe some reserve is a good thing here.
 
B

bruce_g

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Hi Marceline,

Rather than try to interpret this for you, I’m going to interpret it as though I was in your position and received your 14.5-1 reading. I’m also going to consider that several readings leading up to this one were: “The Yi consistently advises not taking any action, obstacles etc.”

In short, 14.5 would represent my conscience. Hex. 1 would be the active or activating force behind my conscience.

I say this because it’s been my experience with 14 to require my purest effort; not that which necessarily is most immediately pleasurable or rewarding. Quite the opposite of this has been true: feeling somehow sad over not having what I’d like. 14 comes along and taps my shoulder, saying “What is it you really want, more than anything else?” When I’m completely honest with myself, I know it isn’t something of a transient nature, but something of an innocent nature, something free of remorse. That is 14 to me.

Wilhelm 14: Thus the superior man curbs evil and furthers good, and thereby obeys the benevolent will of heaven.

Bradford 14: The noble one, accordingly, suppresses bad and promotes the good. Accepting heaven's terms and higher laws.

LiSe 14: The noble one by terminating evil raises good, by yielding to Heaven relaxes in fate.

To interpret this for you I'd say, follow your conscience.
 

willowfox

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Well, this suggests that sending the letter would be a good idea but be wise in how you word your letter, so that he does not lose his respect for you, don't grovel or debase yourself. So be sincere in what you write and you will win a follower.
 

marceline

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Thank you so much for all your responses. This is fascinating! The two layers of meaning brought by bruce and listener have highlighted really relevant points. This idea of conscience is really interesting as I respond very much to the older translations which can have a moral tone which is more emphatic.
Thinking about this love letter...I quickly think of his current girlfriend and what an appalling intrusion this letter would be from her perspective. I would dearly love to send it but deep down, I don't think it would be right. I'm sure others my think life is what you make it and it's worth taking risks, but I think I may be constitutionally incapable. mmm....but it's still 14.5 though isn't it...?

Likewise, the idea of trying to prise out of readings what one wants to hear has also hit the button. Relationship issues can be so deeply felt it's almost inevitable. This is particularly true for the 'you can do nothing but let go' variety of answers. One of the first readings I got about the relationship was 53.3.5. Recently I asked how would the relationship develop and got 53.3, I then asked would there be anything more? Up came 53.5. It is a situation I don't feel I have much control over..I don't want it to dwindle away to nothing but the obstacles are real. Could people suggest questions that might move me forward in my head? I feel as if something from leftfield may shed light on this dilemma. Again, many thanks.
 

laylab

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wow, this kind of situation seems to be the prevailing theme this week hehehe lol

just some practicle advice, do NOT send him a love letter and do NOT persue him..that's basic common sense when it comes to women and men, but especially in this kind of situation. Sit back, talk to friends if you need to get it out but wait for him to come to you.

try asking the i ching, "how should I behave in order to draw him to me?" Because the love letter wasnt the recommendation from the IC was it?

edit:

ok, I will give you some practicle advice but it would help to know just HOW much you "get on like a house on fire" ;)
does this mean you have been physically intimate?

if so,...stop it. (and I am speaking from VERY recent experience here)

actually, if you have been with him, you DO need to write a love letter, but not the kind you are thinking of. I would suggest writing him a dignified letter that breaks it OFF with him. Do not do it in an attacking way or accusatory....
the thing is, you have to be willing to accept that he might agree with you ending things..but I suspect that you will become much more attactive to him when he sees that you love YOURSELF.

treat yourself the way you want him to treat you.

then "standstill"

and wait.... patiently

he will either come or not come..but if he comes, you have shifted his perspective of who you are and how he must interact with you.

hope that helps
 
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Trojina

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Thinking about this love letter...I quickly think of his current girlfriend and what an appalling intrusion this letter would be from her perspective. I would dearly love to send it but deep down, I don't think it would be right. I'm sure others my think life is what you make it and it's worth taking risks, but I think I may be constitutionally incapable. mmm....but it's still 14.5 though isn't it...?

QUOTE]


I'm glad you bought this up, I think its entirely in the spirit of 14. Hex 14 doesn't mean grab what you want regardless, what others have should be respected also. The fact that you feel constitutionally incapable, that deep down you don't think it would be right, is in my view your real wealth here.
 

laylab

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actually, about the intrusion...you say the letter would be an intrusion for his girlfriend. But, honestly, you have already psychically intruded on her without realizing it. think about it.
 

Trojina

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wow, this kind of situation seems to be the prevailing theme this week hehehe lol

just some practicle advice, do NOT send him a love letter and do NOT persue him..that's basic common sense when it comes to women and men, but especially in this kind of situation. Sit back, talk to friends if you need to get it out but wait for him to come to you.

try asking the i ching, "how should I behave in order to draw him to me?" Because the love letter wasnt the recommendation from the IC was it?

edit:

ok, I will give you some practicle advice but it would help to know just HOW much you "get on like a house on fire" ;)
does this mean you have been physically intimate?

if so,...stop it. (and I am speaking from VERY recent experience here)

actually, if you have been with him, you DO need to write a love letter, but not the kind you are thinking of. I would suggest writing him a dignified letter that breaks it OFF with him. Do not do it in an attacking way or accusatory....
the thing is, you have to be willing to accept that he might agree with you ending things..but I suspect that you will become much more attactive to him when he sees that you love YOURSELF.

treat yourself the way you want him to treat you.

then "standstill"

and wait.... patiently

he will either come or not come..but if he comes, you have shifted his perspective of who you are and how he must interact with you.

hope that helps

FWIW I see all that as coming from a hexagram seven place so to speak. You are talking strategies, games, manipulations etc. Thats why you keep getting hex 7 IMO, cos thats how you're treating this whole thing in your own case - as a campaign.

I don't think its that funny - someones stands to get hurt, whats the glee about.
 
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marceline

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Thanks again for your posts,
Sadly I'm all too aware of the effect I might have, that consideration is a powerful element in this dilemma. As to psychic intrusion, falling in love seems to be outside one's control, I was mortified to discover he had a girlfriend, by that time it was too late.
The situation is this - I met this person about 18 months ago. I was completely bowled over and felt an extreemly significant other had arrived, the feeling has settled but the intensity has never left me. The only thing that resonates was reading in Jung about what it feels like to meet someone who corresponds closely to one's anima/animus. We have had exchanges based on common interests(there are many) but not any kind of relationship obviously. It's more like an agonising Victorian unrequited love type situation. I know he is really important and my feeling is to pursue this intuituion. This is where I come a cropper and my interpretations go all skwiffy. My gut is saying this is a totally unique situation, it speaks to my spirituality, creativity and vitality - but my moral sensibilities provide the cold shower. I suppose these two aspects of myself read the hexs so differently!!Oh what to do....? I've embroidered everything in the house!
As suggested I asked 'How should I behave in order to draw X to me?
25.4 > 42.
mmm...another cold shower i guess ???? Any thoughts?
 

laylab

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Trojan,

my advice (that I applied to myself) is actually and was actually the ONLY thing I could do. Break it off. If it is meant to be, he will come back and then we will see what happens.

I also don't think its that funny and never implied that any of it is. In the realm of human emotions, I hardly think that treating yourself, the way you want the other person to treat you is a "game".

And who is playing the game? The man with the two women or me? or her?

It is also not manipulation to say, "hey, I am not willing to play second fiddle, if you want to be with me, it's got to be real and exclusive".

This relationship is not perfect, and the situation is also not perfect. But your post above was entirely too judgemental. And quite an unfair assessment considering I am only trying to survive here, I as am terribly in love.

The same goes for Marceline. She has every right to intentionally position herself in order to protect both her dignity and heart.
 

laylab

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My gut is saying this is a totally unique situation, it speaks to my spirituality, creativity and vitality - but my moral sensibilities provide the cold shower.

Marceline,

This "cold shower" is exactly what I was going through, so I understand completely. For days I couldn't sleep or eat right. This forum really helped me interpret the i ching and here the input of others.

What is the situation now? Are you still seeing your Mr. X?
 

willowfox

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"As suggested I asked 'How should I behave in order to draw X to me?
25.4 > 42."

Hex 25.4 says that you don't have to behave in any particular way because if this relationship is meant to happen, then it will happen, so don't worry. Also, don't listen to what other people think you should do or how you should act.

Hex 42 this then leads to this hex which says that things will go your way, so now is the time to take action, don't hesitate any longer or you will miss the boat, you can succeed here if you try, so think positive and leave any negative thoughts behind.
 

marceline

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Ahh...Posting this issue and getting your replies has really helped me find direction with this dilemma. I realised, by commiting it to a post, that I feel very strongly equally about yes! wanting a relationship with this man and also that I must behave with the utmost integrity.

I have asked two more questions today and had these answers.

What would be the outcome of contacting X?
24.1.4.>16

How will the relationship now develop?
2.5 > 8

It would be great to have your thoughts on any nuances...I'm not sure about 24, would this be returning to following the heart, being returning to one's way?

2.5....Isn't the I Ching absolutely amazing????

Also I'd be interested in advice about something if possible. Can anyone recommend a translation that has a neutrality that would balance Wilhelm's moral tone..(I usually go straight to Lise's site after W) I feel I need something to balance this bias in my own interpretations. I was brought up by a vicar's daughter you know!:blush: Many thanks.
 

willowfox

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"What would be the outcome of contacting X?
24.1.4.>16"

Hex 24.1,4 suggest that you follow your conscience and do what you feel is right, don't worry what other people think because you have to decide this issue by yourself.

Hex 16 says that the outcome will be one of happiness, so you must prepare the way forward now by first, making contact with him.

"How will the relationship now develop?
2.5 > 8"

The relationship will have to be low key and discreet in the beginning and this will lead to a successful union.
 

magictortoise

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Marceline,
I think it unfortunate the way you framed the question. The way you asked is more like fortune/future telling. To use the oracle this way is, to my mind, to demean it. Better had you asked about the timeliness of revealing your feelings to this person.

But you asked and it seems the oracle is telling you to retain your individuality/dignity. Wilhelm's commentary adds "by his trustworthiness he kindles the will of others." I think the orcale is telling you to abide in the virtues of dignity and trustworthiness. This may have a better influence on the other than a love letter revealing our feelings.

The upshot of behaving in this manner is a revitalization of energy and potentiality. (Hexagram 1)

Best regards,

KgW
 

rosada

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Dear Magictortoise,
You still worrying about how other people frame their questions? Boy, you are experiencing a tough Saturn return.:rofl:
 

magictortoise

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Rosada,
I harp on this because framing the question is very important. And I believe that to ask 'what will happen if' is a poor use of the oracle. Better to ask about a line of action, ones relation to oneself, or timeliness of action. In the Bhagavgita the reader is told to have his mind on the action and not the consequences. In the commentary to hex 41 it says "all that matters is that things happen at the right time". But we want assurances before acting. This to me is bad faith with Tao.

KgW
 

Trojina

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Magic in some ways I agree with you but in another way I don't.

I partly disagree with your rules on how to form a question because it is my own experience that the Yi can get to the heart of the question, as if it knows the real issue, even if my question is a mess. I find this quite amazing - I may be asking with certain words in my head but the Yi answers the real issue at stake which I may not even as yet articulated for myself. I think when a person has been consulting the Yi for a long time they form a relationship with it and its like a friendship, formalities can be dropped a bit - because there is an understanding there.

On the other hand I partly agree with you in that poor questions can undoubtedly lead to confusion about the answer - especially in relationship questions - or questions about what other people feel etc.

I also feel the Yi is predictive often, much more than I used to think - sometimes i think it does give one quite a clear glimpse of the future so questions like 'will this or won't this happen' are not so useless as you think IMO.

For absolute beginners formulating good questions is more important but the relationship with Yi grows organically, its different for everyone - so my point to you is if a person has been consulting for years and finds their answers from the Yi accurate why would you tell them they are wrong to do it such and such a way . I really don't think its that cut and dried.

Besides I think it helps for a person to use their own language, way of thinking when asking just like they would another person - when we talk to another person we don't always used set ways of speaking.

Sometimes however formulated questions are a very good idea - for example Jeseds questions for relationship issues can bring alot of much needed clarity -
 

magictortoise

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Trojan,

My reply about framing questions is of course general because I do not know the experience of the readers. Because this is an open forum I am giving my opinion based on over 35 years of experience working with the oracle. I am a bit zealous, but only because I learned over the years the follies of not framing questions properly, and even worse, not following through on the counsel.

As for framing the questions in ones own words I did this at first for many years and then found that using the language of the I Ching itself brought clearer answers. Like: Ought I to undertake so and so, ought I to persevere in such and such aciton, or would it further me to take such and such action. A blessing when you receive answers like undertakings bring good fortune, perseverance furthers. I am not saying that this is the ultimate way to word a question. I am just stating that wording the question in the language of the oracle for me brings clearer answers.

I agree that the I Ching, or any other oracular insturment for that matter, can operate as a predictive tool. I think, however, that it is not the wisest use of the oracle. To utillize the oracle as a tool for personal growth and understanding is to lift it out of the realm of fortunetelling, a practice with no moral/spiritual basis. So the I Ching predicted that the romance won't work where does that leave the querant? They go on to the next relationship and another barrage of questions awaits the oracle, instead of asking what ought I to do or what is the lesson for my passage that this relationship has to offer. For the person who doesn't care about personal growth and self-development then the predictive tools I suppose are adequate, but you won't find that attitude in Legge or Wilhelm. Why then would they go on about character development and assign certain hexagrams as insturmental in the growth of character: Hex 41, 15 to name two? If prediction were the best use then they would leave out all commentary but the good fortune/misfortune stuff. But few are intrested in this aspect of oracular use so I won't be surprised if this view meets with a lot of flack.

Thanks for you reply . I appreciate the stance you have taken. The middle way, for sure. Forgive me my zealousness.

Best regards,

Ken Wanamaker

BTW in criticiziing the framing of questions I don't think I ever stated that the replies were invalid because of the framing of the question. Correct me if I'm wrong. I wouldn't go that far unless I had a letter form God saying so. ;)
 
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Trojina

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Hi Ken some interesting points in your reply - interesting that you began using the language of the Yi such as persevere and further etc so you could receive reply in same language. Hmm except this isn't necessarily the language of the Yi but the language of Wilhelm isn't it - other translators use quite different wording. Anyway if you found it helped I can't knock it :)

Re your point about predictions I agree consulting the Yi only for that is not best use of the oracle - more often I find it comes as a by product of another question. For example if I ask 'how shall I handle my friends behaviour today' the Yi may give me an answer that shows the meeting is not going to happen - which renders the question I asked irrelevant. I'm not keen on people making definate predictions for others though, I've ranted on that many times :mischief:

However many people start consulting the Yi for simple predictive purposes and find they learn from it despite themselves - to my mind its good they even start to consult for whatever reason, eventually they learn more about the Yi anyway - mmm well some do I guess, its true many seem to go on and just get into another similar situation and ask the same question over and over without appearing to have learned anything - but then isn't that true of us all sometimes - the Yi is very patient fortunately - alot more patient than me anyway :D
 

rosada

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KgW
Certainly the framing of the question is an important part of the consultation. I was just pointing out that posting one's own rules on everyone else's threads is appropriate behavior for someone dealing with Saturn, the planet representing Law and Order.
Personally, I find the I Ching will give an answer to any question I ask, ;-)
 

magictortoise

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I didn't mean to come across as arrogant or infer that my way of questioning is the 'rule'. I was merely suggesting what over 35 years of experience has taught me. I think we have a duty to give the best interpretation possible and remarks about framing of question are part of it. Suppose after reading the suggestion the querant thinks 'that's a good idea. I think I'd like to give it a try. It may lend better clarity." Then not to suggest re-framing would be a disservice to the querant.

As for the Saturn Return remarks I was adamant of forms of questioning long before Saturn return so I think it is more a part of character though, of course, Return residuals do probably figure in. Astute observation, BTW.

Best regards,

Ken wanamaker
 
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lightofreason

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KgW
Certainly the framing of the question is an important part of the consultation. I was just pointing out that posting one's own rules on everyone else's threads is appropriate behavior for someone dealing with Saturn, the planet representing Law and Order.
Personally, I find the I Ching will give an answer to any question I ask, ;-)

If framing a question is a concern then let the IC ask YOU questions. It will then give a generic representation of what is pushing your buttons and so what is getting you to try to ask a question in the first place. Given the context one can focus better re what is going on.
 

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