...life can be translucent

Menu

Is this marriage auspicious? 18.6 > 46

T

tidalwave

Guest
Is this marriage auspicious?

18.6 > 46

Improve yourself and thus improve the world > pushing upward. Progress can be made through strength and will. Cultivate inner independence.

I guess this is saying that the marriage is not inauspicious... but that "luck" will come by the fruits of one's efforts. So perhaps this marriage is neutral. Your thoughts?
 

Lavalamp

visitor
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
1,094
Reaction score
191
"Is this marriage auspicious?" 18.6 > 46

Mostly based on Legge's commentaries on this line, I read this as this marriage serves the personal growth of the individuals, their family. It is not a marriage that serves a broader public purpose, like an arranged marriage between nobles to bring peace between kingdoms, or maybe a political marriage, or one intended as an example to society in some way, perhaps dedicated to a common moral, religious or political ideal or vision, that might always come first.

- LL
 

altair139

visitor
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
181
Reaction score
11
line 6 of hex 18 is about instability. Are you already married or is considering marrying someone?
If it is the latter dont rush into marriage yet, there are more things to be done to settle down.
The corresponding line 6 of hex 46 also predicts a blind advance that has no end, which is a bad omen for marriage (like how near 30 years old women in China rush into marriage and turn out unhappy). The Yi clearly doesn't advise a marriage for you. Spend your time to improve your relationship, then ask the Yi again.
 

Lavalamp

visitor
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
1,094
Reaction score
191
line 6 of hex 18 is about instability.
If it is the latter dont rush into marriage yet, there are more things to be done to settle down.

Jeez, how do you get that from this line, which says serving your personal interests is often a higher calling than serving Kings and Princes? Are you reading the same line? Plus to just jump in and tell someone not to get married is rash for any fortune teller, it is way over the top I think to get so far ahead of the person you are talking to.

I don't think it's cool to hit people with such hard advice when you don't know anything really about them really, just your interpretation of a coin toss.

- LL
 

Juliah

visitor
Joined
May 31, 2014
Messages
340
Reaction score
14
I would say that 18.6 tells about something much bigger than auspicious signs, something what lies beyond this category.

I think that the person who received this line should not be concerned about following any contemporary standards, all these norms and principles determining what should be called auspicious and successful. Apparently, this person is mature enough to follow his/her own way and not to question it even for a second.

The cast was about the marriage... Well, from my point of view, the engaged couple deserves being delighted. (I also admit that this couple faced some external obstacles while uniting in marriage.)
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
Is this marriage auspicious?

18.6 > 46

Improve yourself and thus improve the world > pushing upward. Progress can be made through strength and will. Cultivate inner independence.

I guess this is saying that the marriage is not inauspicious... but that "luck" will come by the fruits of one's efforts. So perhaps this marriage is neutral. Your thoughts?

I agree with Juliah when she said

I would say that 18.6 tells about something much bigger than auspicious signs, something what lies beyond this category.

I think that the person who received this line should not be concerned about following any contemporary standards, all these norms and principles determining what should be called auspicious and successful. Apparently, this person is mature enough to follow his/her own way and not to question it even for a second.

18 has to do with correcting inherited patterns of all kinds. One's own karmic patterns or those coming from one's family or culture. The line says, from Hilary's book

'No business with kings and lords,
Honouring what is highest is your business'


Kings and lords are earthly authorities. So the answer says there is no need to consider how auspicious this is if you are thinking of 'auspicious' as proper to cultural norms and expectations. If any part of the marriage was to satisfy family expectations and so on then the answer says you've gone beyond that, you serve something higher than this. How that would transpire in terms of this particular marriage I can't tell as I don't know enough about the situation. Also it's not clear of who you are asking it's auspicious to ?

If you, or whoever you speak of, didn't want to marry and was marrying because of family/cultural expectation the answer would be telling you quite clearly to go your own way. But if you want to marry and maybe others don't approve it may be saying 'don't worry what others think go your own way, marry if you want to'. So how to take the answer is dependent on your own position here. You are being told not to pay too much attention to any earthly authorities so what does that mean to you ?

I also think it is highly likely the whole concept of 'auspicious' as applied to a marriage is something 18.6 is asking you to transcend, it may not be useful here..
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
The corresponding line 6 of hex 46 also predicts a blind advance that has no end, which is a bad omen for marriage (like how near 30 years old women in China rush into marriage and turn out unhappy).

What you call the 'corresponding line' is the fan yao. It doesn't predict anything so does not come into the answer in this way. It certainly isn't a prediction of any kind. It can be used as a kind of mirror to help one see one's actual answer from a different angle, that's all. So there is no 'bad omen' for marriage here unless you see it in 18.6. I think 18.6 is a fairly enigmatic answer for this question that needs the subjective knowledge of the querent to fully make sense of it.
 

altair139

visitor
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
181
Reaction score
11
Jeez, how do you get that from this line, which says serving your personal interests is often a higher calling than serving Kings and Princes? Are you reading the same line? Plus to just jump in and tell someone not to get married is rash for any fortune teller, it is way over the top I think to get so far ahead of the person you are talking to.

I don't think it's cool to hit people with such hard advice when you don't know anything really about them really, just your interpretation of a coin toss.

The reason why this is usually about "instability" is because this line is talking about a person being offered a job by the King (which is stability), however he refuses as he believes that working alone can serve a higher purpose. The person is adventurous and doesn't care about the stability offered to him. The "higher goal" English translation does not have the negative connotation compared to Chinese texts, because "higher goal" here could be a delusion of a person who can't see his limit, lofty might be a more suitable word.
Yet this line comes out in a marriage question. Marriage without stability (either emotionally or financially) will surely be shattered, so how can this be a favorable line for a marriage? To tidalwave: ask yourself, is one of you having trouble financially? Can your future husband share with you your family's financial problem?
Of course it's my advice to halt (not to completely reject the person), it's still up to her to make the decision. In my opinion it's the fortune teller's duty to tell what's in front of him. If a person dares to ask a big issue, he or she must be prepared to hear negative insights.

What you call the 'corresponding line' is the fan yao. It doesn't predict anything so does not come into the answer in this way. It certainly isn't a prediction of any kind. It can be used as a kind of mirror to help one see one's actual answer from a different angle, that's all. So there is no 'bad omen' for marriage here unless you see it in 18.6. I think 18.6 is a fairly enigmatic answer for this question that needs the subjective knowledge of the querent to fully make sense of it.
I have a different opinion though. Sometimes an issue is really bad (till the point there's no turning back, for example: a person got really sick, asked the Yi about his condition, received a line saying that his condition will get really bad and not curable, however the second hexagram is really auspicious, which makes no sense), the corresponding line will tell you more insight about the thing you asked.

In this case, 18.6 is telling about the instability if a marriage happens. However there's advance afterwards, advance of what? The fan yao gave me the insight quite clearly - advance blindly into marriage.
 
Last edited:
T

tidalwave

Guest
The person who this reading was for has been married for only 5 months. She is an indecisive and anxious person and can never make up her mind about anything. (That is probably her greatest problem, to be honest.)

Thank you for all of the responses. I am inclined to agree with the positive affirmations of the reading. I just read the Wilhelm interpretations, and they seem very promising to me.

As far as "auspicious", I think she just wanted to know if this unconventional relationship that she's in would drag her down financially, lead her into misery because of immobility, or if her intuition to go against convention and to be with this man would serve her well and somehow create a happy life for her. It's not that she believes she has no agency in her own life, but one should never underestimate the influence that our closest companions have on our lives and minds.
 

Lavalamp

visitor
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
1,094
Reaction score
191
Sometimes "auspicious" is understood as a synonym for "good fortune." This line implies perhaps good fortune or one's "way" is comeing from something outside of earthly authorities, from society. I have never really considered auspiciousness to be something that springs from the approval of peers or society in general, but I guess that is something that in practice often influences human lives. I have always gone the way of not caring what Kings and earthly authorities think, but only the duty to higher values, so... I guess that is my personal bias to see auspicious as only what the invisible, spiritual or personal values are in a situation. Family, society, our tribe and the King probably should be taken into consideration in some way in readings, as not everyone is built for withstanding the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

- LL
 

Lavalamp

visitor
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
1,094
Reaction score
191
But since Hex 18's general meaning has to do with repairing virtue, serving something higher than social norms is probably seen as virtuous. Breaking down social rules could have to do with many things - in old China marrying for love, not money and family connections for example - or interracial marriage, inter religious marriages, or marriage that crosses class lines. My parents married across racial lines when it was just not done, and it was not easy. I know a couple of similar families where the marriages did not survive, and my parent's marriage could not be called easy either. I do find it interesting though, how there is a force in the universe pushing humanity towards such changes, What is small between two people, often has a bigger meaning way beyond what we are aware of.
Would it be wrong to see this as the power of love flowing through the sea of humanity?
Happy Thanksgiving by the way, as we are celebrating today in North America.

- LL
 

altair139

visitor
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
181
Reaction score
11
Of course true love surpasses all boundaries, including financial background, classes, and ethnic races. However a marriage is more complicated than that. You will have your own family, have children, and raise them, that's when the financial problems start to increase exponentially. There have been countless couples believing in true love (aka "higher purposes") and failed to make long term plans and the ones who will suffer the most are of their next generation. Making money does not come from "love" alone, it's from the drive to make a better living.

So the picture is quite clear to me now that tidalwave has provided us some background stories: The wife has a better job, probably from a higher class too. The husband however cannot make much money to support the family but she still decided to marry him anyway believing that love will be enough to make everything work. (Thus discarding the stability that she could have found in another man, believing that loving the current husband is the right decision, for a higher purpose: love)

If plans are not made soon (aka letting the situation decay, failed to "fix the evil" like the meaning of the main hexagram 18), the marriage will go no where (just like in line 6 of 46: "Where does this ladder lead to? It has no end")
 
T

tidalwave

Guest
Of course true love surpasses all boundaries, including financial background, classes, and ethnic races. However a marriage is more complicated than that. You will have your own family, have children, and raise them, that's when the financial problems start to increase exponentially. There have been countless couples believing in true love (aka "higher purposes") and failed to make long term plans and the ones who will suffer the most are of their next generation. Making money does not come from "love" alone, it's from the drive to make a better living.

So the picture is quite clear to me now that tidalwave has provided us some background stories: The wife has a better job, probably from a higher class too. The husband however cannot make much money to support the family but she still decided to marry him anyway believing that love will be enough to make everything work. (Thus discarding the stability that she could have found in another man, believing that loving the current husband is the right decision, for a higher purpose: love)

If plans are not made soon (aka letting the situation decay, failed to "fix the evil" like the meaning of the main hexagram 18), the marriage will go no where (just like in line 6 of 46: "Where does this ladder lead to? It has no end")

Having received differing responses to this reading, I wonder if you could suggest a question that the person in question could ask the Yi that would clarify the picture?
 

Lavalamp

visitor
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
1,094
Reaction score
191
"How can I best take responsibility for the commitment I have made?"

- LL
 

gene

visitor
Joined
May 3, 1971
Messages
2,140
Reaction score
88
While I swore I wouldn't do any more readings here, I am going to jump in this one time as this is a fascinating situation. This line is NOT directly answering the question, as there is a deeper question involved here, and it is not obvious except to the person who originally asked. There is a deeper question. That is what is being answered. Since I do not know the mindset of the person, I cannot directly answer the question. But here there is a matter of perspective.

One thing the questioner must do is be honest with him or her self about the facts surrounding this question. That alone would be serving something higher than the kings and princes.

In terms of a simple and direct situation, the answer would be quite positive. But there is an unknown. Why is the question being asked? For, serving something higher could mean "higher than the marriage situation itself." But it doesn't have to. It depends on the context. And that is what makes this so complex.

Then again, serving something higher could mean a greater commitment to the marriage itself. It could refer to the need to get rid of negative emotions and be more calm and accepting. If the person who originally asked the question can read this, maybe they will pick out the answer for themselves. Because so very much here depends on the mindset and determination of the person involved.
 
T

tidalwave

Guest
While I swore I wouldn't do any more readings here, I am going to jump in this one time as this is a fascinating situation. This line is NOT directly answering the question, as there is a deeper question involved here, and it is not obvious except to the person who originally asked. There is a deeper question. That is what is being answered. Since I do not know the mindset of the person, I cannot directly answer the question. But here there is a matter of perspective.

One thing the questioner must do is be honest with him or her self about the facts surrounding this question. That alone would be serving something higher than the kings and princes.

In terms of a simple and direct situation, the answer would be quite positive. But there is an unknown. Why is the question being asked? For, serving something higher could mean "higher than the marriage situation itself." But it doesn't have to. It depends on the context. And that is what makes this so complex.

Then again, serving something higher could mean a greater commitment to the marriage itself. It could refer to the need to get rid of negative emotions and be more calm and accepting. If the person who originally asked the question can read this, maybe they will pick out the answer for themselves. Because so very much here depends on the mindset and determination of the person involved.

I appreciate that you took a break from your break to join the conversation, Gene. I don't know what the deeper question could have been. Although the woman who asked comes from a well off family, she herself has had terrible luck in securing a good job. In fact, she's been underemployed for years and isn't even working at the current moment. So I think her fears stem from her own current lack of earning power and fears about her husband's potential. She's worried if she will thrive in life, because she feels like she isn't and that the future will simply get worse. I wonder if any of this extra information could add depth to your interpretation? I'm intrigued by your post and would love to hear your thoughts on what the Yi is saying.
 
T

tidalwave

Guest
62.3 > 16 clarification

To clarify the Yi's answer, we asked the Yi what counsel it would provide for the woman in question regarding her marriage. Since 18.6 > 46 could suggest abandoning outdated values (or it could suggest stagnation and loss), I thought that asking the Yi for counsel on what to do regarding the situation might help clarify the original answer.

So we got 62.3 > 16.

From Wilhelm: "there are dangers lurking for which they are unprepared"... which then becomes Enthusiasm.

Man I just don't understand what this is saying either, and it seems very foreboding and unsettling.
 

gene

visitor
Joined
May 3, 1971
Messages
2,140
Reaction score
88
I appreciate that you took a break from your break to join the conversation, Gene. I don't know what the deeper question could have been. Although the woman who asked comes from a well off family, she herself has had terrible luck in securing a good job. In fact, she's been underemployed for years and isn't even working at the current moment. So I think her fears stem from her own current lack of earning power and fears about her husband's potential. She's worried if she will thrive in life, because she feels like she isn't and that the future will simply get worse. I wonder if any of this extra information could add depth to your interpretation? I'm intrigued by your post and would love to hear your thoughts on what the Yi is saying.

Yes, that does help, although it is much like what I expected and was hinted at in one of the earlier posts.

For now, let's just say that the main thing is to overcome her fears. It is her fears that are causing disharmony in the marriage and making her concerned. (And as an aside, is the husband someone that is loved? Or just a means to an end?)

The line says, "Does not serve kings and princes, sets higher goals." The kings and princes are the fears that are controlling her, like a king controls his subjects. The king is also external. She is looking to things outside of herself and trying to figure out how to control her external environment instead of looking within and finding her strength and power within, which is the real king of everything. The only person or thing we can control is ourselves. If we view the problem as external, (the king) we give up our power, and in trying to control the people around us we find we cannot, which just leads to more fear and frustration. By going within we find our own inner power, and can control ourselves, which is the higher goals mentioned in the oracle. I would suggest that she is trying to control her husband as well, and force him into a package that is right for her. In the long run this can only result in resentment and withdrawal. Love for the sake of love is the answer. True love does not try to control anybody or anything. It just loves. The key here is to let go. Stop trying to force and accept, and allow the "higher goals" to control us, rather than us controlling. The whole inspiration of the I Ching and Taoism in general is to "follow the natural way," which means surrendering to the universe, not controlling it. When she gives up, she will find the "natural way," which are the "higher goals."
 

altair139

visitor
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
181
Reaction score
11
To clarify the Yi's answer, we asked the Yi what counsel it would provide for the woman in question regarding her marriage. Since 18.6 > 46 could suggest abandoning outdated values (or it could suggest stagnation and loss), I thought that asking the Yi for counsel on what to do regarding the situation might help clarify the original answer.

So we got 62.3 > 16.

From Wilhelm: "there are dangers lurking for which they are unprepared"... which then becomes Enthusiasm.

Man I just don't understand what this is saying either, and it seems very foreboding and unsettling.

You have to brace yourself now. Damage has been done.
Things were good in the past but it's no longer true today due to overconfidence. Your confidence (could be the confidence in the marriage, or the hope that it can work out) is misplaced and no solution can be given in the query.
Like line 3 of hex 16 suggests: You have to do what you think is right. No hesitation allowed. You know the answer. Overindulgence in joy (16) is ominous.
Dont give up to the circumstances. Nothing is too late and you can always turn the course. A warning is not for giving up, it's for making plans to fight against the upcoming storm.
 
T

tidalwave

Guest
You have to brace yourself now. Damage has been done.
Things were good in the past but it's no longer true today due to overconfidence. Your confidence (could be the confidence in the marriage, or the hope that it can work out) is misplaced and no solution can be given in the query.
Like line 3 of hex 16 suggests: You have to do what you think is right. No hesitation allowed. You know the answer. Overindulgence in joy (16) is ominous.
Dont give up to the circumstances. Nothing is too late and you can always turn the course. A warning is not for giving up, it's for making plans to fight against the upcoming storm.

Do you think this could refer to overindulgence in substances like alcohol, bad food, and cigarettes? Because the person in question lost her mother to ill health last month, and she has since overindulged in just about everything to numb the pain, despite her own tendency to get sick easily. I also wonder if it refers to overindulgence in money and frittering away finances.
 

altair139

visitor
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
181
Reaction score
11
I think it's both. Because of her tendency to indulge in order to get over the sadness, it will add up on emotional and financial problem later on. Her husband should be her support pillar during this time, not alcohol or any kind of drugs.
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
Going back to the original cast

Is this marriage auspicious?

18.6 > 46

It occurred to me this isn't about your marriage I presume but someone else's. Therefore this answer may be telling you not to concern yourself with it.
 
T

tidalwave

Guest
Going back to the original cast



It occurred to me this isn't about your marriage I presume but someone else's. Therefore this answer may be telling you not to concern yourself with it.


well, full disclosure, the reading was, in fact, for me, and i am, in fact, already married. my husband is sweet but has inherited some bad tendencies from his uncultured, emotionally indifferent, and intellectually null family. naturally, he is better than that, which is why i was drawn to him, but it's not hard to see how his parents' vastly negative traits sometimes pull him down. we're working through it. he couldn't even admit that they had a bad influence on him until almost 9 years into our relationship! but that said he's slowly going through a personal renaissance right now. i guess i was wondering if he would really be able to overcome the negative influence of that upbringing (he has relapses every once in a while) or if it would simply drag me down.
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top