jun1 zi3

[dobro p]

Okay, I've taken the plunge and rendered jun1 zi3 as 'noble one'.

It crops up most in hexes 15 and 20. It seems often to crop up when the querent is in a position of not applying direct personal power or will to the situation (or in the case of 15, where the querent is 'humbling' things, levelling them).

No?

 

[hilary]

I call him/her 'noble one', too. I'm not so sure about 'not applying direct personal power or will', though. Junzi appears first at 1.3, creating and creating to the end of the day, and second in Hexagram 2, having a direction to go. Then (assuming you're just looking at the Zhouyi)...
3.3, 9.6, 12.0, 13.0, 15.0, 15.1, 15.3, 20.1, 20.5, 23.6, 33.4, 34.3, 36.1, 40.5, 43.3, 49.6, 64.5.
Several of these seem quite forceful, though I think at his best the noble one distinguishes himself by responding imaginatively rather than automatically.

 

[dobro p]

Several of these seem quite forceful, though I think at his best the noble one distinguishes himself by responding imaginatively rather than automatically.

A noble one can't be noble if he/she responds automatically. If you respond automatically, you're reactive and robotic, and there's nothing noble in being mechanical. Responding imaginatively, yes. Responding with intention and awareness, yes. And yet what's the nature of that intention? My understanding is that the noble one is on the cusp of the human and the divine, exercising a fine balance of self-control and surrender to the higher will. If you try to manipulate or steer outcomes and events, you lose the surrender that makes you noble; if you don't restrain yourself from automaticity and absorption in outer events, you surrender the self-control and balance required of people who want to 'go upstairs'. I could be way off here, but at this point it seems to me that to be a noble one, you have to control your lower inclinations and surrender to the higher power.

 

[heylise]

I agree with your second post, but not with "...when the querent is in a position of not applying direct personal power or will to the situation". Why should surrendering to a higher power mean, that you don't use your own power anymore?

My own experience is quite the opposite. When I surrender to a higher power, I get a lot of power to turn a situation to the better.

I like "noble one" as translation. It is literally nobility by birth, but means also nobility by heart. To me it gives an image of many people and one among them who does things with nobility, "that one over there, he is a noble one, maybe he knows what to do..". But a little while later he disappears again among the masses. Exactly what usually happens in me.

LiSe

 

[hilary]

The noble one drives and drives (or creates and creates) in his first appearance: I can imagine this as alignment with the higher power of Qian. What about the second appearance, where he has a direction to go? Whose direction is this?

I find it interesting that in some of those lines, the noble one isn't doing too well. Sometimes because of the way he stands out from the crowd (12.0, maybe 36.1) - but what about 9.6?

 

[dobro p]

I agree with your second post, but not with "...when the querent is in a position of not applying direct personal power or will to the situation". Why should surrendering to a higher power mean, that you don't use your own power anymore?

Well, because it's not *your* power at that point. It's not your own. It's just power coming through what you used to think was you, but now you know better. It's not *personal* power any more. It's impersonal. It's divine.

 

[dobro p]

I agree with your second post, but not with "...when the querent is in a position of not applying direct personal power or will to the situation". Why should surrendering to a higher power mean, that you don't use your own power anymore?

Well, because it's not *your* power at that point. It's not your own. It's just power coming through what you used to think was you, but now you know better. It's not *personal* power any more, and it's not direct from you or your agenda. It's impersonal. It's divine.

I'm having a hard time here expressing this idea in English because I need to keep using the words 'I' and 'you' to make good grammatical sentences, but with the jun1 zi3, the 'I' and 'you' of things is a lot less dense, a lot more transparent to the will of the Universe, a lot more different to the ordinary 'I' and 'you' or ordinary ego.

 

[charly]

...I find it interesting that in some of those lines, the noble one isn't doing too well...

Hi, Hilary:

You are speaking of the JunZi (Noble One) at the lines, I believe it is different from the JunZi at the Da Xiang (Great Image).

The second is surely the confucian «person of noble character», but the JunZi of which you're speaking is earlier and less perfect.

Preconfucian literature uses of JunZi, were:

* Ruler, Prince, noble
* Prince's son, noble by birth, aristocrat
* Cultured people, scribes, ultimate autorities
* Husband (when fiancée maybe better translate Prince?)
* Someone from the pairs community (people from the same brotherhood)
* Future readers (people who can undestand the the message)

Except the last two, all for male persons of high social status.

The ancient character Jun has a right hand holding a stick over a mouth, a person that speaks with authority (the big stick), another version says a hand holding a writing tool over a mouth, persons who give his commands by writing, thus cultured.

The character zi has the shape of a baby, but is used in reference to ancestors (people who have ancestors, well born), as diminutive, as master, as mister and, the most important, something like an egg, something that can become, something in potence.

People who had received the power (the big sick or the writing tool) or who goes to receive it in the future. Noble and Power are inseparable.

In a more esoteric sense I believe that JunZi is the person who was initiated or who is going to be initiated. To be initiated is to receive some power and to get in some brotherhood.

Thus all users of the book are JunZis, all receiving some power, all pertaining to a great brotherhood. The JunZi are you, and the person whom you can become.

Yours,

Charly:bows:

 

[dobro p]

Pretty good, Charly.

My feelings about the noble one in the Great Images are the same as yours - he/she is an ideal or realized type compared to the one in the Yi, who is somebody On the Way.

 

[Sparhawk]

You are speaking of the JunZi (Noble One) at the lines, I believe it is different from the JunZi at the Da Xiang (Great Image).

The second is surely the confucian «person of noble character», but the JunZi of which you're speaking is earlier and less perfect.

This was a great observation, Charly, and one that is mostly missed, as many obvious things are. For all the bad taste the so called "Confucian tradition" seems to leave in many Yi students, it was that school that brought it down to street level and the rest of us.

 

[bradford]

I'm stubbornly sticking to Zi having the implication of youth,
even in the Da Xiang, which was written after Zi became an
honorific in addition to an affectionate diminutive. In this
light the Da Xiang is a manual of ethical instruction for the
young nobility - someone working in earnest at being less
imperfect, but also knowing how long that road is and more
himbled by that that the Da Ren and the Sheng Ren.

 

[dobro p]

'Himbled'? lol

You know, I think you've just opened a door for me. I think you're right - the Da Xiang's a training manual, not an oracle.

 

[charly]

Pretty good, Charly.

My feelings about the noble one in the Great Images are the same as yours - he/she is an ideal or realized type compared to the one in the Yi, who is somebody On the Way.

Thanks, Dobro:

I celebrate we agree about this matters. I have a question that I for myself have not yet solved:

Don't you think that 君子 JunZi is only applicable for men? If it is, what to do with women? If not, what to do with JunZi? Must we be loyal to the text or must we be loyal to the women?

子 Zi, as baby, can be applied to children, male or female. 君 Jun is, I believe, a male ruler, son of prince, knight. How can we apply it to women?

Sears at ChineseEtymology:

君 ...a man who speaks 口 with a hand 又 and a rod 丨 - monarch
... a sovereign / a monarch / a king / a lord / you ( used in addressing a male in formal speech )...
[a 君 bronze character: I don't see very well the hand with the stick, but... ]

From: http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=君&submitButton1=Etymology

A JunZi from [not so] ancient times:

From: http://blogenchine.com/2007/07/12/gentlemen-chinois/


What have in mind this guy? May be the text is a good friend, but better friends are women (1). I prefer to be loyal with women that to be loyal with a text so ancient that sometimes nobody knows what it want to say.

Do you agree?

Yours,

Charly
____________________
(1) reversing «amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas»

 

[charly]

... great observation ... that is mostly missed ... For all the bad taste the so called "Confucian tradition" seems to leave in many Yi students, it was that school that brought it down to street level and the rest of us.

Luis:

Of course Confucius had heavy influence in the commentaries, JunZi-ness (1) can be acquired by learning and hard work.

But in the core text (the ZhouYi) I believe that the use of words is less according to the dominant ideology and more related to ancient repressed or forgotten wisdom or usages.

Maybe we must translate the same words differently when from de core text and when from the commentaries, as Chong Lu-Sheng does (2).

I believe that Confucius would not apply Noble-One (JunZi) speaking of or to women, because he thought that girls and servants were, like children, among the Small-People:

The Master said, "Of all people, girls and servants are the most difficult to behave to. If you are familiar with them, they lose their humility. If you maintain a reserve towards them, they are discontented."
From: http://classics.mit.edu/Confucius/analects.4.4.html

Thus, not all the women were humble and shy in Confucius times.


Yours,

Charly


________________
(1) nobleness?
(2) See: http://barney.gonzaga.edu/~chongls/CP/qiana.htm

 

[charly]

I'm stubbornly sticking to Zi having the implication of youth,
even in the Da Xiang, which was written after Zi became an
honorific in addition to an affectionate diminutive. In this
light the Da Xiang is a manual of ethical instruction for the
young nobility - someone working in earnest at being less
imperfect, but also knowing how long that road is and more
himbled by that that the Da Ren and the Sheng Ren.

Bradford:

I agree very much with you (and with Dobro), I believe that the JunZi is a young in the way of improving. May be the advice of the Great Image is: «you, Gentlemen (1), be like the True Gentleman that ...».

If the JunZi is a model, maybe nobody fits too much to that model, but as model, it remais valid. Maybe when reading JunZi we might think «people in the JunZi way», even «we» [brothers and sisters pursuing that model].

This shirt fits long to me (2).

Yours,

Charly


________________________
(1) also for Ladies: be like the True Lady
(2)...
for a man engaged in the JunZi way → he has put himself the JunZi shirt
for a woman engaged in the JunZi way → she has put herself the JunZi skirt
(the skirt of a scottish knight).

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Charly,

But in the core text (the ZhouYi) I believe that the use of words is less according to the dominant ideology and more related to ancient repressed or forgotten wisdom or usages.

Maybe we must translate the same words differently when from de core text and when from the commentaries, as Chong Lu-Sheng does (2).

Well, I don't think they should be translated differently. The basic meaning should remain the same. I believe Confucius and his school were interpreting and annotating the term as they found it in the original text of the Zhou Yi (whatever they received as even back then there wasn't a standard edition of the Zhou Yi but something that was passed from Master to Students) when they wrote the Xiang Zhuan (Da Xiang) and thus imbuing the Yijing with their humanistic view.

Bradford's theory that the Da Xiang is a didactic addition to the Zhou Yi for instructing young nobles is also very attractive for me. It keeps with the times of Spring-Autumn.

Thus, not all the women were humble and shy in Confucius times.

I know and after so many thousands of years they still resist.

 

[dobro p]

Don't you think that 君子 JunZi is only applicable for men? If it is, what to do with women? If not, what to do with JunZi? Must we be loyal to the text or must we be loyal to the women?

I think there's absolutely no problem being loyal to both text and women if you take the Yi as symbolic. If you see the images in the Yi as symbolic (not literal) then it's the meaning of the line, not the literal sense of the words, that's important. So although the original meaning of jun1 zi3 referred only to a male, I think that if you take jun1 zi3 to mean 'noble one' then that noble one can be a man or woman in today's world. But I think people get into trouble when they start to take the Yi literally. For instance, I've read what Hilary has to say about Hex 44 and I think it's not accurate. And I think the reason it's not accurate is cuz the literal meaning of 44 offends her. I think the literal meaning of Hex 44 is 'powerful women are to be avoided if you know what's good for you'; I think the symbolic meaning of 44 is 'you're dealing with something attractive and powerful which should be avoided'. The literal meaning is sexist and does a disservice to modern women (if not *all* women *ever*); the symbolic meaning does no disservice to anybody. Conclusion: you can be completely faithful to the symbolic meaning of the lines and still honor and respect the women you know and the women who use the Yi.

A JunZi from [not so] ancient times:

From: http://blogenchine.com/2007/07/12/gentlemen-chinois/


What have in mind this guy?

Well if you look at the book the woman's reading, you'll notice it's pornography. You'll notice also that both of them are young and rather good-looking. You'll notice also that both seem to be home alone together. So my guess is that the guy is thinking something like: "Hm. The young lady seems to be exhibiting a certain interest in matters of a physically intimate nature. The young lady in question is also a bit of alright, and I haven't had any for at least a week. On the one hand, my I Ching studies tell me in 52.3 that it's dangerous to stifle energies below the belt. On the other hand, my jun1 zi3 studies tell me it's important to act according to code. So, what's code in a situation like this? Hm. Shall I consult the oracle? No - not enough time. I know! I'll consult the young lady and ask her what she thinks. And if her mind harmonizes with my own, then perhaps we can make beautiful yinyang together."

But maybe I'm projecting. I mean, maybe he thinks the picture in the book she's looking at is purely symbolic...

 

[bradford]

The image of the ultimate junzi that sticks most in my mind is young Cheng Wang, nephew to King Wen, growing up during the regency of the Duke of Zhou until it was time for him to assume the throne. Imagine the training he got. For me this is the Da Xiang model - teaching noble behavior with an illustration that says "this is how a noble would act ..."

 

[martin]

Well if you look at the book the woman's reading, you'll notice it's pornography. You'll notice also that both of them are young and rather good-looking. You'll notice also that both seem to be home alone together. So my guess is that the guy is thinking something like: "Hm. The young lady seems to be exhibiting a certain interest in matters of a physically intimate nature. The young lady in question is also a bit of alright, and I haven't had any for at least a week. On the one hand, my I Ching studies tell me in 52.3 that it's dangerous to stifle energies below the belt. On the other hand, my jun1 zi3 studies tell me it's important to act according to code. So, what's code in a situation like this? Hm. Shall I consult the oracle? No - not enough time. I know! I'll consult the young lady and ask her what she thinks. And if her mind harmonizes with my own, then perhaps we can make beautiful yinyang together."

But maybe I'm projecting. I mean, maybe he thinks the picture in the book she's looking at is purely symbolic...

 

[charly]

I think there's absolutely no problem being loyal to both text and women ...

It's my best whish.

... the original meaning of jun1 zi3 referred only to a male ... if you take jun1 zi3 to mean 'noble one' then that noble one can be a man or woman...

O.K., could be better «Noble-Young»? Of course for somebody who isn't young... but may be symbolic too.

... people get into trouble when they start to take the Yi literally... I think the literal meaning of Hex 44 is 'powerful women are to be avoided if you know what's good for you'...

Of course, nothing must be taken literally, but you're not quoting a literal translation, it's only an interpretation, very extended but not the literal sense!

...the symbolic meaning of 44 is 'you're dealing with something attractive and powerful which should be avoided'...

Symbolic is so plastic that always is true for somebody (and false for some others). Good as interpretation if it make sense with the context of the consult. But in general I don't agree with the avoidance.

Conclusion: you can be completely faithful to the symbolic meaning of the lines and still honor and respect the women you know and the women who use the Yi.

Good conclusion indeed [but I think not from the correct premises]. The symbolic pertain to the interpretative, needs literal basis for working over it. If we accept that «gou» means «dog», we can resolve that it symbolises «loyal» or that it symbolises «dirty», but if an authority tells us that «gou» means «courtesan» our symbolic conclusion may be another, «loyal» less probable.

Literally sense matters, that is loyalty to the text, we remain free for getting the symbolic meaning we want.

Well if you look at the book the woman's reading, you'll notice it's pornography. You'll notice also that both of them are young and rather good-looking.

Oh! It is not pornography, it's only a «Yin-Tao» book. I wonder if wasn't the guy who give it to the girl. Or maybe she acquired it from Amazon?

Young people indeed, good looking and high class, lady and gentleman. I'm affraid that it could be a home scene, they are wife and husband. The guy looks pretty bourgeois, doesn't seem to have climbed walls, crossed gardens, walked on flowers for getting close to the Lady.

...

... my jun1 zi3 studies tell me it's important to act according to code. So, what's code in a situation like this? Hm. Shall I consult the oracle? No - not enough time. I know! I'll consult the young lady and ask her what she thinks. And if her mind harmonizes with my own, then perhaps we can make beautiful yinyang together."

As a good JunZi he isn't fanatic of books. Very euphonic the «yinyang» to designate the ultimate purpose of the JunZi (and why not of the Lady?).

... maybe he thinks the picture in the book she's looking at is purely symbolic...

Quite right, it isn't but about the alchemist work!

Resume: we have more things in common than differences.

Yours,:bows:

Charly

 

[charly]

Ladies & Knights:

From the point of view of moral authority, in ancient China Ladies were more modelic than men, they were depositaries of morality and righteousness they can assume political authority in her husband's absence. Gentlemen instead could be dirty guys, inmoral and dishonest if not traitors.

Ladies may also ride horses (!) and go to the war. If you don't trustme ask to Midaughter.

Source: http://www.cgan.net/book/books/print/g-history/big5_9/images/07/0222.jpg

Although when wives or concubines they were called little sisters. They laught at Confucius and at SunZi, sometimes (the more?) they risk their life.

Charly

 

[charly]

The image of the ultimate junzi that sticks most in my mind is young Cheng Wang, nephew to King Wen, growing up during the regency of the Duke of Zhou until it was time for him to assume the throne. Imagine the training he got. For me this is the Da Xiang model - teaching noble behavior with an illustration that says "this is how a noble would act ..."

Bradford:

Do you say that the Da Xiang (Great Image) reminds you the training of Cheng Wang (1) by the Duke of Zhou? or that the Da Xiang advices to be like Cheng Wang who had as model a JunZi like the Duke?

Yours,

Charly

________________
(1) for people interested in Cheng Wang : http://www.chinavoc.com/history/xizhou.htm

 

[charly]

... I don't think they should be translated differently.

Most people think like you. I believe it's a good idea to restore the old meanings to the core text, as far as the old meanings are known by another sources, included cross cultural background.

The basic meaning should remain the same. I believe Confucius and his school were interpreting and annotating the term as they found it in the original text of the Zhou Yi

Characters can be the same or similar ones, like words and roots in other old literatures, but pronunciation is uncertain and meanings used to evolve accordingly with social, political and economical interests all around the world. Not speaking of meanings purposedly distorted. You said «annotating the term» and «interpreting»

(whatever they received ... wasn't a standard edition of the Zhou Yi but something that was passed from Master to Students)

Most western classics arrive to us through students' notes, maybe the YiJing too. Diviners disciples used to made divinatory carvings for practising. Meanings were mainly transmitted orally and memorized.

Bradford's theory that the Da Xiang is a didactic addition to the Zhou Yi for instructing young nobles is also very attractive for me...

I like it, including among nobles different sort of people from the courts, rulers, militars, scribes, scholars, diviners, etc.(1) who can achieve access to the state secrets.

May be commentaries like images of lines have a didactic intention too, begining as simplified editions when the text radiate to the lesser nobility remaining in part copies, in part reelaborations, in part omissions prior to be intercalated with the core text.

Yours,

Charly
__________________________
(1) Both genres of course.

 

[bradford]

Bradford:
Do you say that the Da Xiang (Great Image) reminds you the training of Cheng Wang (1) by the Duke of Zhou? or that the Da Xiang advices to be like Cheng Wang who had as model a JunZi like the Duke?

I meant that the Da Xiang is very well-adapted to that sort of instructional situation -
the education of a young noble, to help him take his place at the head of society.
The education of Cheng Wang was a perfect example of that, and the association of the Zhouyi with the Duke of Zhou suggests the possibility that this example might even have been on the authors' minds.

 

[dobro p]

BH - I'm going to go back into the Da Xiang and have another taste for myself, but do you think it's more of a pictured ideal, or more of a training manual? Something to live up to, or something to try out and learn from?

Is it possible to try it out?

 

[bradford]

BH - I'm going to go back into the Da Xiang and have another taste for myself, but do you think it's more of a pictured ideal, or more of a training manual? Something to live up to, or something to try out and learn from??

Clearly it's both.
Also, don't forget that more than a dozen times it's not advice for the Junzi but the actions of Xian Wang, the early sovereigns or original kings, to explain why things are the way they are, or are done the way they are done, and that that has merit.