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Jungian parallel's in the 38th hexagram[opposition]

django

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In the nine at the top of the 38th hexagram [Wilhelm edition] it states....Isolated through opposition
one sees ones companion as a pig covered with dirt, As a wagon full of devil's first one draws a bow against him,, then ones lays the bow aside He is not a robber;he will woo at the right time


here the isolation is due to misunderstanding; it is brought about not by outer circumstances, but by inner conditions. A man misjudges his best friends, taking them to be as unclean as a dirty pig and as dangerous as a wagon full of devils.He adopts an attitude of defence... and so on.

According to Jung the initial collision between the Self and the ego is the cause of the ongoing opposition [and conflict] in the individual psyche,as the top line[38] states "it is brought about by inner conditions"
In Mysterium Coniunctionis[para 145][ ..The Self is by definition, greater than the Ego conscious personality, embracing besides this, the personal shadow and the collective unconscious. Conversely the entire phenomenon of the unconscious appears so "unimportant" to Ego consciousness. Consequently it is critical and mistrustful of everything "hailing from the unconscious" convinced it is suspect and somehow dirty.[A pig covered with dirt, A wagon full of devil's]?
In Psychology and Alchemy[para 192] A man's unconscious is feminine and is personified by the "Anima" the Anima also stands for the inferior function, and for that reason frequently has a shady character; in fact she sometimes stands for evil itself. It is possible to raise this "inferior" Function to consciousness and thus made masculine.It will however bring traces of its contamination with the inferior function, thus acting as a kind of link with the darkness of the unconscious.

The fourth[inferior]
function now being contaminated with the unconscious and, on being made conscious drags the whole of the unconscious with it. We must then come to terms with the unconscious
and try and bring about a synthesis of opposites
At first a violent conflict breaks out, such as any reasonable man would experience when it became evident that he had to swallow a lot of absurd superstitions. Everything in him would rise up in revolt and he would defend himself desperately against what looked to him like murderous nonsense.

One of the major problems that Jung is illustrating here is that modern man with his Christian upbringing runs eventually into opposition with his "feminine" unconscious in which the deep rivers of Paganism still flow.

In Two Essay's on Analytical Psychology [para120]
In this paragraph Jung is giving advise to those, whose fate it is to plunge over into the abyss clutching their copy of the "Yi"
.... The wordless occurrences which are called forth by regression to the pre-infantile period need no substitutes; They demand to be individually shaped in and by each man's life and work. They are images sprung from life, the joy's and sorrows of our ancestors; and to life they seek to return, not in experience only but in deed. Because of their opposition to the conscious mind they cannot be translated straight into our world; hence a way must be found that can mediate between conscious and unconscious reality.

This last paragraph incorporates not only the 38th
hexagram but is a parallel with the image of the 26th hexagram .

I must apologise for quoting so much out of context which makes for difficulty in "stringing it all together"But if the opposition hexagram is kept in mind then maybe it will make some sense.
Django.
 

bfireman

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Django,

Thank you for the post. It has helped clarify a lot of misunderstanding regarding this hex I have been experiencing these past few months. In trying to externalize the advice of this top line, I believe I was missing the point when it was really talking about inner psychological processes which I needed to pay closer attention (the relationship between conscious and unconscious you speak of.) I think you have touched on a very real level of meaning for this hex. There does manifest a huge amount of opposition, mistrust, misunderstanding when these bits and pieces of our personalities meet. I think this hex is a clue when this may be happening and a wake up call to pay attention.

On another note, I really don't like the word "unconscious". I mean, what is so "un" about consciousness anyway. It only reinforces the minds ability to segregate and separate into separate "things" what are truly just different layers of the same onion. IMHO. Peace - Brian
 

django

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Hi Brian
Thanks for you input.Perhaps we Could take your "opposition" [forgive the pun] to the use of "un"-conscious,If you dont mind, that is? .

Well as Jung himself said.."any psychological system that does not base itself on opposition is only a makeshift idea" and the tension of opposites[ and its synthesis] between the unconscious and consciousness make for psychological growth.As a matter of fact this is what makes us conscious.

What is really fascinating, is the link between Jung and the I Ching.
I know this is pretty radical but I am of the opinion that Jung did <U> not</U> discover analytical psychology but in fact,<U> rediscovered</U> it. The Yi completely permeates his collected works and nearly all his major concepts. Jung brought his clients and disciples to the task of
individuation and Tang brought his disciples
to completion in <U> 1766 BC</U>
'Individuation' and 'Bringing to Completion' both point to integration, and to me, this is what the I Ching's main function is, To bring the individual to completion.
I can only say, the collected works of Jung has helped me enormously to understand the deeper meanings in the I Ching and conversly the I Ching has helped me to find that "hidden language" that M. Von Franz alluded to, regarding Jung's work.

As far as Carl Gustaf Jung and Richard Wilhelm are concerned I can only bow my head in deep gratitude that they both had the tremendous courage to"fall" willingly and consciously into the deep alien abyss to retrieve this great psychological treasure.

Well folks, I have really exposed a part of my "soul stuff" so go kindly please.[muttering darkly.. It must be the time of year hmm.
Django.
 

cassandra

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Django,

I would be very interested to know what book you are referring to where M. Von Franz alludes to the "hidden language" of Jung's work.

I am also an avid Jung reader and have grown up with the I Ching and Jungian concepts interwoven as you have.
 

lindsay

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Dear Django,

Thank you very much for these posts. You seem to be addressing a number of very difficult ideas to talk about, but I think they really do go to the heart of the Yi. Pardon me if I simplify and extend some of your ideas, and feel free to correct me where I go astray.

(1) The idea of creative opposition. Django explains that Jung thought any serious psychology must be based on the opposition of fundamental psychic components, an opposition that creates change and growth. Wilhelm also held this idea, and so in fact did Marx and many other Germans. It is one of the great German ideas of the nineteenth century stemming ultimately from Hegel, and it is often referred to as the theory of dialectics.

Basically, the idea is that things (ideas, concepts, world-historical situations and events) tend to engender their opposites. Peace creates the conditions for war, love contains the seeds of hate, stasis makes change inevitable, etc. The tension or conflict between opposites continues until it is resolved in the formation of a new thing, a thing containing elements of both opposites, but also having its own character. This is summarized in the well-known formula thesis + antithesis = synthesis. Of course, this is only the beginning of a cyclical process, since every synthesis generates its opposite in turn and produces a new synthesis, and so on and so on forever. Many German thinkers thought dialectic was the key to the very mechanism of change. Dialectic was universal in application ? it could be used to explain the dynamic nature of history, social struggle, psychology, anything and everything.

So imagine how Wilhelm and Jung felt about finding an ancient system based on the creative tension of opposites (Yin and Yang) which was said to produce the whole world (see Dazhuan, again) and all its contents ? the ten thousand things. TheYi not only used dialectical ideas to explain change, it used them to reveal and predict change as well! It served as a kind of dialectical compass. Of course, the Yi spoke in a strange symbolic language, but its basic premise was absolutely congruent with thinking that put opposition, conflict, and struggle on center stage. And Jung loved the idea that the symbolic representations of the Yi somehow tapped into the mysterious contents of the universal unconscious.

By talking about past ideas, I do not mean to imply that dialectical thinking is in any way old-fashioned or out-of-date. It is still very much alive, and has many proponents. I think it is a very cogent way to organize reality.

(2) The inner Yi. Anyone who tries to use the Yi for self-development or guidance must recognize that it speaks to conditions within us as well as external conditions. If you read commentators like Carol Anthony or Sarah Dening or Stephen Karcher carefully, you will notice they often talk about the querent?s psychological position within the external situation. But it is not necessary to begin with an external context. I believe one can ask the Yi questions purely about one?s psyche and inner life, and receive valuable insights. This is fairly new ground for the Yi, because the Chinese, and presumably also their ancestors, do not share our view of the psyche (or even the individual, for that matter). One must be very careful about making assumptions when looking for traditional foundations.

(3) Jung and the Yi. I think Jung was greatly influenced by the Yi, but other powerful symbol systems also impacted his thought. A very major one was alchemy. My impression is the Yi was a fairly early influence, and other things were more significant for Jung?s later thought. Django, I hesitate to recommend the obvious, but Jung?s autobiographical reflections called ?Memories, Dreams, Reflections? might well prove helpful as well as his published correspondence to clarify the position of the Yi in his thinking. Of course, there is the Wilhelm/Baynes ?Preface? also.

(4) Individuation and bringing to completion. Django, it think your idea that the two processes are similar is very insightful. Here there is a bothersome problem of what version of the Yi to consider. Personally, I do not find the Zhouyi (the oldest strata of the Yi) very compelling intellectually. I think it was only later in the Warring States Period and the early Han that the Yi was invested with its amazingly sophisticated philosophy of change. A very interesting exercise might be to test your individuation theory against the Daxiang (?Image? or ?junzi? or ?superior man? sayings), which clearly sets out normative behavior patterns for the fully-developed person.

Talking about Jung is like trying to spoon the ocean into a teacup. There is always more. Also, I think anyone who consciously tries to navigate the unconscious in a non-representational way - poetry, music, visual art, drama, and so on being time-honored representational methods ? anyone who seeks to apprehend the unconscious directly, is on a very dangerous voyage. Be careful.

Lindsay

Oh yes, Marie von Franz collected a series of interesting lectures in her book ?On Divination and Sychronicity: The Psychology of Meaningful Chance.? She does talk about the Yi, but it?s been a while since I read it ? is that where you got your ?hidden language? quote?
 

louise

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Hmm that was interesting Lindsay. Pardon me for interrupting {i shall keep very quiet on Jung - knowing not much} but one point struck me rather forcibly as I had not really considered it before. That is point 2, where you say the Chinese{and their ancestors} view of the psyche and of the individual is very different to ours, so we can't make assumptions when looking for traditional foundations. Thinking about it thats probably why I tend to go for the most unpsychological, basic interpretation of Yi when reading for myself.

Anyway what I don't know is what the Chinese view of the psyche is/was ? I'm assuming obviously the individual is seen more in terms of value to society as a whole (now anyway). But is there a Chinese view of the psyche - or was there ? Can anyone enlighten me ?
 

django

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Hi Cassandra you set me a fair task, I have spent a couple of hours trying to pin down the Von Franz book quote with no joy I am afraid.

I dont think the book was from the public library so it will be in mine's, somewhere!I am quite sure it[the quote]was in one of her seminar books which unfortunately, quite a few have no index and a bibliography only, however I will try and track it down I think, if I remember rightly she and Jung were having a conversation regarding the difficulties, academic's and intellectual's have fully understanding and assimilating the "deeper" meaning of his works, as they always seem to trip over their intellect.Maybe somebody out there will save me a long search.

Well thought out post Lindsay, and you are right on the ball with the last sentence of your post "anyone who seeks to apprehend the unconscious directly is on a very dangerous voyage, be careful." If I could quote from ML Von Franz's "On Divination And Synchronicity" Whilst looking for Cassandra's quote "Almost all oracle techniques should be used like the I Ching, that is, for serious questions" in other words not to be used for an amusing parlour game.

How many people have got the 20th hexagram with the fourth changing line[Wilhelm's] "Such a man must be given an authoritive position, in which he can exert influence, he should be,so to speak, a guest- that is, he should be honoured and allowed to act independently" "and should not be used as a tool"
To whom is the YI speaking ??
Is it speaking to someone who is playing parlour games??
or is it being aimed at a more dangerous or sinister psychic entity?
If I could quote from The Zarathustra Lectures page 231...You see, the instincts always come up from the unconscious and give us a hint, perhaps in a dream.For, suppose I am Identical with an Archetype; I dont know it and of course the Archetype wont tell me, because I am already possessed and inundated by the Archetype. If it is "the wise old man", he will seek only to express himself, and the human instrument he is using. Just as I pay no attention to the hammer I use; I use it then I throw it away That is the way the Archetype uses man, simply as an instrument as a tool of the transitory.

Well are you "using" a tool.. or are you "being used" as a tool??????
Django.
 

lindsay

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Dear Louise,

Thanks for your interest. How people thought and understood themselves at various times in history is one of my favorite subjects. Unfortunately, I?m on the run with very little time. Just enough time to set Django straight (ha, ha). I hope to get back to your question.

Dear Django,

Three quick comments:

(1) Obtuse intellectuals. I have read a similar passage in a book by arch-Jungian Jolande Jacobi taking intellectuals to task for not being open to the full (Jungian) meaning and significance of symbols. This is all too often the kind of rhetoric used by partisans who feel they are losing an argument. After all, who were more died-in-the-wool intellectuals than von Franz, Jacobi, and Jung himself? Jung and the Jungians were always under attack by rival psychologists from other schools (Freud and the Freudians, for example), but it was the shift from theoretical, ?talk?-centered psychology to scientific cognitive and bio-chemical research that put Jungian psychology out of business. Today one barely sees Jung mentioned in psychology texts as even a footnote. Once again psychology is a branch of medicine, and Jungian psychology is pretty much a shrinking cult. (Don?t forget to take your pills!)

(2) The Yi as parlor game. We?ve talked about this issue before in this forum, and I?m not so sure it is necessary to sanctify the Yi in order to take it seriously. I think the Yi gives you the answer you deserve. If you come to it expecting nonsense, you will find it. If you think it is just a game, then you will not see its value because you are in a shallow frame of mind. On the other hand, if you save it for strictly momentous occasions, then you won?t be able to take advantage of its practical utility.

(3) Tool or fool. Who?s using who(m), the Yi or me? Is it a tool or am I its fool? I don?t even need to think to answer that question ? no way the Yi is going to run my life, thank you very much - but let?s talk about Archetypes for one minute. As you recall, Plato had a similar theory about Ideas. According to the garrulous Greek, every object within a class is an imperfect manifestation of the Idea of that class. Dogs, for example. Any particular dog (my dog, your dog) is an imperfect copy of the perfect, quintessential Idea of a Dog. Therefore, the ideal Dog is more real than any existing representation. Angel?s dog Dam is just a pale and imperfect copy of the eternal, perfect Idea of a Dog.

At some point, everyone has to decide what is real. (1) Are the things we perceive outside ourselves (smell, touch, hear, see, etc.) in the material world real? (2) Or is reality to be found only in our minds, do we in some sense create reality? Plato and Jung more or less opted for Number 2. Personally, I?m a Number 1 man.

A well-known idealist (Number 2: only ideas are real) was the philosopher Bishop George Berkeley (1685-1753), who argued that matter as such does not exist, only ideas. One of his opponents was the writer Samuel Johnson (Number 1: matter is real). When questioned about his refusal to entertain Bishop Berkeley's philosophical theory of the non-existence of matter and asked how he would answer it, Johnson kicked a large stone very hard while exclaiming, "I refute it thus." I still find that a pretty convincing argument.

Back to Archetypes ? are they more real than their collective representations? Jung thought so. I don?t. So your dilemma never comes up for me.

Right now my very real watch is telling me I?m very late in this dream we call Life!

Lindsay
 

heylise

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Lindsay, I read your mail several times, because it was so nice to read my own ideas, but now explained. I often feel down-to-earth and a bit simple-minded for not being able to discuss these things. I think an imperfect dog is a great dog and a perfect dog-idea is a pale thing. I am very happy to be my own imperfect stumbling-around person making mistakes all the time. I love others for their imitations and impossibilities, and I never knew how to tell them why. So now I can explain: ?it is because it really hurts (and teaches both me and you) when I bump into you. If you were perfect I would not even be able to kick you because there would be nothing there, just a pale idea?.

I don?t dislike the abstract ideas, because they make the mind a bit loose from too much reality. But they are not good to live with seriously, at least not for me. I am always surprised when people look beyond their own life, even looking beyond our own planet, gods being astronauts and such. I have my hands full with this life, all the time finding new beautiful things I never met before.
LiSe
 

django

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Hi Lindsay
Good post for a man in a hurry,I am pleased that my dilemma never comes up for you.Got a feeling you are of an intellectual bent[ nothing wrong with that] But.. just maybe,.. a little part of my post just "snuck" in below your radar[if truth were told].Tis true Jung and Von franz etc had strong intellects, but their Logo's never excluded the Eros factor, and therin lies the secret. ie to remain, and to retain a child-like wonder at the secret core of a Grimm's faerie
tale for instance and this is a bit difficult for an intellectual who uses his/her intellect like a shield .[C'mon Lindsay "sharpen thy quill"]

However, we seemed to have drifted away from the core of the thread [ my fault.] ie Jung and the I Ching I would like to draw you attention to the the 57th Hexagram and especially the 2nd [nine] changing line.[Wilhelm]
Nine in the second place means;
penetration under the bed.
Priests and Magicians are used in great number.
Good fortune . no blame.
At times one has to deal with hidden enemies, intangible influences that slink into dark corners and from this hiding, affect people by suggestion. In instances like this It is necessary to trace these things back to the most secret recesses in order to to determine the nature of the influences to be dealt with. This is the task of the priests; removing the influences is the task of the magicians. the very anonymity of such plotting requires an especially vigorous and infatigable effort, but this is well worth while. For when such elusive influences are brought into the light and branded, they lose their power over people.


This line, if one removes the words 'priest' and 'magician' and inserted analyst in their place
could have been straight out of Zurich[or Vienna] at the beginning of the 20th century, but [and this is truly amazing] this <U>analytical psychology</U>was being practised 1500 years before Christs sandals kicked up any dust in the Middle East.

I am sorry, I wont have access to a computer for four or five days so will not be able to comment on any points for that time. but all the best wishes for the festive season and a special thanks to Hilary for setting up such an interesting web/board, I really enjoy my visits here.
Django
 

louise

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Telepathic message received from Angels dog, Dam -
(chanelled by Louise)

"Oy, who are you calling pale and imperfect mate"

Lindsay, i feel you may have unwittingly insulted Angels dog who is already depressed.
 

lindsay

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Dear LiSe, Louise, Django, and everyone,

Louise, I apologize to poor Dam and all dogs everywhere for questioning their reality and perfection. Even my own dog was deeply offended when she read my post! (The cat thought it was funny.) I believe wholeheartedly that all animals are perfect in their innocence.

LiSe?s post was wonderful, and I loved every word of it. I wish I could be as down-to-earth as she is, but people have always told me I think too much ? and I do.

When I reread Django?s post about using a hammer, I couldn?t help thinking about a car bumper-sticker I saw a while ago: ?When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.?

I?m off for a week, but I?d like to wish Hilary, all the Friends, and everyone else the very best for the holidays!

Lindsay
 

hilary

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I wish I had either the time to take all this in, or Lindsay's kind of brain to be able to understand it all in one reading!

Another great LiSe quote:
'If you were perfect I would not even be able to kick you...'
Yes, I know, you didn't mean to be taken out of context like that - it just made me grin.

Having spent much of today talking (mostly about biscuits) with an elderly dachshund who is reputed to be able to identify her own reflection in a mirror - a Jung among dogs! - cheerful greetings to all the dogs who have recently joined the forum. I trust you will enjoy the parts of the Yi that talk about hamsters and other rodents especially.

Hm, do I have anything even remotely serious or intelligent to say?

Django's first post actually made me think quite a lot of Hexagram 44 - anyone else? It's fascinating to see this insights into hexagram patterns from new angles - thank you, Django!

I've never liked to speak of 'using' Yi as a 'tool'. The thing with tools is that you direct the end result, at least in theory. Hands up who has ever got this oracle to say what they wanted it to...

Django, are you quite differentiating between Jungian psychology in the Zhouyi and ditto in Wilhelm's 20th-century commentary? Acting as devil's advocate for a moment and grabbing my copy of Richard Rutt, what if Hexagram 57, line 2 actually just says
'Food offerings set out before an altar.
Use large numbers of diviners and shamans. Auspicious.'
?
It doesn't have to mean what Wilhelm said it did.

Isn't it the case that ancient Chinese beds didn't have spaces underneath them where one could penetrate?
mischief.gif
 

django

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Hi Hilary
Thank you for your interesting insights and questions, firstly I must declare I find the Wilhelm edition nearer to my soul than any of the other of my translations .I enjoyed reading about the special relationship between Mr lao Nai-Hsuan [eminent scholar of the old school] and Wilhelm.
Wilhelm being the translator <U>not the author.</U> Lao also"approved" Wilhelms translation just before he[Lao] died.

Which translation is the truth?... I would think it is the one which vibrates for you. I was a Jungian therapist {now retired} so naturally I was drawn to the Wilhelm edition... It is so Jungian!

Regarding below the bed, I think if I remember rightly reading a book about chinese medicine and what "dwelt" below the bed was the source of all nightmares.[ An ancient symbol of the unconscious perhaps]
also Chinese cabinet makers made their own coffin
this was placed under the bed and was drawn out a little every year[ a gentle reminder?] .
Off now for a few day's holiday.
God bless....Django.
 

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