Jungian parallel's in the I Ching

[django]

Hi all
Hilary...correct me if I am wrong , but I get the impression that you think that Richard Wilhelm translated the I Ching all on his own, therefore as you say, allowed his early 20th century Christian bias to colour his findings. If I am wrong then accept my apologies.However let Wilhelm speak for himself.... this translation of The Book of Changes was begun nearly ten years ago. After the Chinese revolution when Tsingtao became the residence of a number of of the most eminent scholars of the old school, I met among them my honoured teacher Lao Nai-Hsuan. I am indebted to him not only for a deeper understanding of the Great Learning, The Doctrine of the Mean, and the Book of Mencius, but also because he first opened my eyes to the wonders of the Book of Changes.

You seem somewhat derogatory regarding the Confucian influence, maybe you have studied it longer and deeper than I.[ you and mr karcher seem to be in agreement in this]

however regarding this, perhaps I can show that there is no old fashioned way of looking at the Changes, I am, of course, quoting from Wilhelm ... The problem is whether, in view of our means of understanding a contact transcending the limits of time is possible... whether a later epoch is ever able to understand an earlier one. On the basis of the Book of changes, the answer is in the affirmitive. True enough speech and writing are imperfect transmitters of thought, but by means of images... we would say ideas, and the stimuli contained in them, a spiritual force is set in motion, whose action transcends the limits of time. and when it comes to the right man one who has an inner relationship with this Tao, it can be forthwith taken up by him and awakened anew to life. This is the supernatural connection between the elect of all the ages.
Django.[ the above quote is from page 325 "the Great Treatise"]

 

[yellowblue]

Everything has it's time and place.

With 44 the time is that in which strength or power is a gathered attribute to what is usually by nature not strong.

Like any hexagram, the meaning can be literal or metaphysical.

It can literally be a woman who has too much yang/male attributes. Or a woman to which many men are attracted to. An androgenic tribe, etc.

But essentially, it denotes an empowering to what is not by nature powerful or strong.

Just my 2 cents.

Deb

 

[joang]

All,
I think there is no need to take the gender images literally, and hence no need to feel either smug or belittled by them. A man can behave like "the woman" in a given situation; and likewise, a woman can clearly be "the superior man," based on her behavior in the situation. I have seen this play out on countless occasions, as I'm sure you all have. Furthermore, depending on the subject of the inquiry, the lines we receive may not refer to a person at all, but to a notion, idea, or belief that is somehow connected with the question or situation. For example, 44.1 may refer to a powerfully seductive idea that could be detrimental if we place our belief in it, IOW, 'marry' it.

Namaste,
Joan

 

[hilary]

Sorry, Django, I have been writing in haste and losing clarity as a result. I do understand that Wilhelm represents and articulates an honoured tradition. My only point was that this tradition is not always necessarily the best guide to the oracle.

You are of course quite right to imply that I haven't studied Confucianism anything like adequately. I'm not passing judgement, at least I hope I'm not. But there is a relatively easy-to-define Neo-Confucian tradition of interpreting the Yi - for instance with the hierarchies of line relationships that reflect social ideas. So 'de' becomes enacting one's social role to perfection, yin is inferior to yang, we have 'superior man' (implying existence of inferiors) rather than just plain 'noble young one', and so on. I and others owe a great debt to Stephen Karcher simply for pointing out that this is not the only way.

I do differ from him on hexagram 44, though. I think Yi itself is neutral on whether the incoming influence is to be welcomed (Karcher) or fought off (Wilhelm, and the weight of tradition behind him) - only quite clear that this is not something you can seize and master in ordinary ways.

Deb, thank you for the 2 cents. Gold ones, I think.

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Hilary
Insightful question this-
["So Brad... the chance encounter, with the 'dissipating' force - is it a Bad Thing in your view? What do you think you are meant to do with the queen/whore (whichever) when you encounter her?]
I think the Yi itself deals with it at 44.4 and 44.6 where the effort to stay undistracted has become an unnatural act and has itself become the distraction. [As celibacy itself is the most unnatural of the sexual perversions]. At this pont it seems the wiser course to set one's higher purpose aside and try to relate. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. Speaking metaphorically of course.
The Yi usually advises some sort of middle path.
b

 

[Sparhawk]

If I may add my opinion, I think there is an obvious point that is being missed in the metaphor of the Strong Maiden of Hex 44. I believe that Bradford is the one closest to my personal opinion on this matter.

Of course, in this modern age of sex equality such a statement in the Yi, if taken literally, is not only completely anachronistic but chauvinist. However I believe that it is a metaphor that must be interpreted under the light of the duality inherent in the Yi. The whole book deals with nothing else than the interaction of Yin and Yang in different proportions. When there is little or no balance the Yi usually advises with negative omens and vice-versa.

In the case of Hex44, if we take this in consideration, there is nothing more than a matter of "who's on top" in a given situation. I don't think the Yi cares about who's on top as long as there is a "top" and a "bottom" and that somebody occupies each of those positions. I the case of the "Strong Maiden" the Yi is advising against en elemental energy, in this case Yin energy, at a certain stage of imbalance where it is about to take properties that belong to the opposite Yang energy. This would create a repeal reaction with another Yang element. It is basic physics...

IMHO, If people who studies the Yi is going to start questioning this basic duality in the Yi we may as well be looking for other topics to study...

L

 

[yellowblue]

It's all about balance isn't it? Balance in proportion to timing and the requirements of a given time. Always adding or subtracting with the flux is required to maintain balance. Obviously what is "top heavy" will end up on the bottom or askew.

This has a lot to do with the post by LiSe about dualism and non-dualism.

In a perfect world, it would all be balanced and stay balanced in the flux.

Luis, Why do you think questioning this would distract from Yi? The hexagrams advise how to achieve or maintain the correct balance in any given situation.

IMHO, that's what it's all about-- the duality is in effect the imbalance that is the result of incorrect action and its resultant effect. Non-dualism is the balanced blending.

Deb

 

[Sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Luis, Why do you think questioning this would distract from Yi? The hexagrams advise how to achieve or maintain the correct balance in any given situation.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mean distraction away from the YI. What I mean is that duality is the basis of the Yi. Lack of duality is outside of existence. The "singularity" before the Big Bang. A utopic concept akin to the concept of 'zero' in math. A concept necessary to provide a pivotal center of balance between the two aspects of energy but at the same time unattainable in real life because it is outside of it.

In math it is said that what lies between 1 and -1 is not zero but "infinity".

Yes, I agree with you. Duality IS the imbalance. But, non-dualism is somewhere between 1 and -1, not a balanced blending. It is "nothing". This is why I believe we have the Yi. To properly approach situations whereby we can apply energy interactions and attain something close to the peace of non-duality but without actually falling in it. Is like navigating thru a storm.

Furthermore, what I meant was that women, as well as men, must once and for all accept the attributes pictured in the polarity of the Yi. It is not an ancient conspiracy against women laid down by some unknown sage of antiquity. It is a picture of nature.

What I meant is that if we start to question THAT picture, we are visiting the wrong museum...

L

 

[Sparhawk]

Not to leave any loose ends on my message above and to clarify my position on the whole issue, nowhere in the Yi it is mentioned that Yang is better than Yin or the other way around. So, I'm not taking sides for one or the other. That's not what I have in mind. But I do believe that they are two very distinct sides of one coin and that attributes inherent in the two of them also apply to sexes.

L

 

[bradford_h]

Hi again-
opinion poll on 44.3
When the powerful woman tears the flesh from our poor subject's rear end, is this more likely to be bondage and discipline, sadism and masochism, or something else?
And why is it not such a great mistake?
b

 

[cal val]

Brad...

Rug burn maybe?

Love,

Val


*grin*

 

[Sparhawk]

Val!! I wouldn't think you have such images in your head!

But I got to think that rug burn in a man, laying on his back... hmmm I thought it was a ladies problem only...

L

 

[bradford_h]

Now Luis,
this is a zhuang nu,
of course she'd be on top
b

 

[Sparhawk]

With a strap on???

Oops, did I say that?

L

 

[cal val]

Well we are talking hexagram 44...aren't we?

 

[Sparhawk]

Seriously though, the inference that the lady of the first line is the one inflicting the pain on the subject of the third line is it yours? I do not read Chinese though, but in all of the translations I have (and I have many) there is no direct literal connection between the two lines.

Is this the way you translated that line?

Of course, we can interpret many things based on the structure of the hexagram and the position of the lines, but I don't think this is what you have in mind, right?

L

 

[Sparhawk]

Sorry Val, is Brad's fault...

(Kidding Brad)


L

 

[cal val]

Luis...

Do you see my grin in my "opinion" post?

 

[Sparhawk]

L

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Luis-
The Zhouyi was written with many layers.
I think that this innuendo was at least one of the intended layers. This is as literally as I can translate:

44.3, 9 3rd
A rump with no skin
OneÕs progress (is) second-rate now
Brutal
(But) not a complete mistake

44.3x
OneÕs progress (is) second-rate now:
Advancing (but) now not being dragged

Zhi Gua 06: Song, Contention
Fan Yao 06.3: incorporating long-standing virtue, steadfastness

I also think the rump with no skin in 43.4 has a humorous intent, but it isn't erotic in tone.

Poor Hilary's sleeping in England now. She'll wake to find her list gone bawdy.

b

 

[Sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

I also think the rump with no skin in 43.4 has a humorous intent, but it isn't erotic in tone.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Phew! For a moment I thought I was missing some ancient fun...

You see, that's one of the things that bother me about not reading Chinese. You really miss a lot of meaning. I would have never seen such innuendo if you didn't point it out. Which begs the question: what else have you found that's not available in western translations?

L

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Luis
There's some stuff in my footnotes. Bunches of wordplay, not just rhymes. Puns, double entendres, etc. Maybe not as much as in Laozi.
Clues, like in 17.6, who the sovereign (wang) is - Wu Wang, Wen's son, the name of the Zhi Gua for that line. Clues to the Fan Yao dimension, and some of LiSe's squares, like 43.4 and 44.3. Or the ten pairs of shells in the Zhi off of Zhong Fu (61).
A lot of it is lost of course. Some of the subtleties can be first to go with Time's big eraser. Bunches are still there, just not enough to build a solid or watertight theory.
b

 

[bradford_h]

Hi again Luis-
I wanted to respond to this separately-
"in all of the translations I have (and I have many) there is no....we can interpret many things based on the structure of the hexagram and the position of the lines, but I don't think this is what you have in mind, right?"
I think that this underscores something important in Yixue. We are not all that close yet to having the puzzle solved. It's only been 3,000 years. It is important still that "a hundred flowers contend in the garden." Or, the big picture of the elephant needs all six of the blind mens perspectives, and more. And it does not have a need for any "one true perspective" to eventually win out.
I am definitely not the sort of relativistic new age blissninny who claims that "everybody's perspective is equally true." And the majority of opinions on a given line might just be pure hooey, but the Yi was written to have several layers of meaning in most of its texts and it is important that we continue to explore these clusters of meanings.
I have made it one of my personal contributions to explore for a layer of humor. I only see it in a small percentage of the texts, but even in cases that I consider obvious I am pretty much alone among writers. Nobody, for instance, sees anything the slightest bit comical in 53.4, a great goose with his big floppy webbed landing gear thinking to perch in a tree, looking for a branch that is shaped more like a landing strip. I don't think the fact that nobody sees this means that the authors did not have a good chuckle or two. It wouldn't be many centuries before three very cool religions (Zen, Daoism and Sufism) would learn to use humor to teach wisdom. I don't think the Yi's authors were all That far ahead. They were just the first.
b