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arabella

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Knowing full well that "if" questions aren't the best, I just asked one anyway, simply because I couldn't think of another way. I'm contemplating the whole earth these days: where to live, work, you name it. It all runs in a big circle around the room, out the door, and back in again. Today I'm up to asking whether the man in my life -- well maybe halfway in my life -- would give a care if I moved away for better employment. We seem to be in better contact these days, but nothing earth shaking.

The casting: Hex 30.5 becoming Hex 13. Can we safely assume he would care -- or is that me weeping great mournful tears?
 

willowfox

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Well, the question was about him, so line 30.5 would apply to him, so surprise, surprise.
 

arabella

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Right Willow Fox, astonishing. He would be gutted. Well, that's encouraging. And the Hex 13? Are we pals -- or what? Fellowship with men isn't entirely what I had in mind to be honest, unless the definition has changed recently.
 

Trojina

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Right Willow Fox, astonishing. He would be gutted. Well, that's encouraging. And the Hex 13? Are we pals -- or what? Fellowship with men isn't entirely what I had in mind to be honest, unless the definition has changed recently.

No, I do not think we can confidently take the answer to mean 'he would be gutted'. He may be...or he may not be, we cannot tell for sure. IMO Yis answers will mainly pertain to ourselves, not giving instant access to the inside of someone elses mind (which isn't to say it never does...) Your answer maybe referring to you, to your sorrow, your mourning.

The only way to tell what it refers to is your instinct about the answer. If your instinct truly tells you the 30.5 means he will be gutted then it could be so. Noone can really answer this for you...if the 30.5 refers to you or him

You said in your first post "can we safely assume..he would care or is it me weeping tears" My answer to that is no 'we' can't assume anything as its your reading. Though we can chuck out ideas about readings to help others, as Luis once famously said, "Yi is not a team sport" ...or something like that anyway.


I noticed you seek group consensus on some of your readings before but it really doesn't work like that IMO. Group consensus means nothing with readings as the brilliant thing about Yis answers is they can mean one particular thing to one particular person at one particular place and time and noone else might even see that meaning or ever think of it because they don't stand in your shoes at that moment

I reckon if you tune in to the reading on a gut level you'll know if that 30.5 refers to him or you...no need to ask us....we don't know


Personally i think if hes gutted he can show that to you...can't he ?


BTW i think an easier way to understand the answer would be to ask how to orientate yourself in the relationship right now....like "shall i be encouraged, shall i look to a future in this relationship etc etc". No use in feeling encouraged if 30.5 is consoling you in your loss....but as i said some part of you will know if it is 'true' to feel encouraged or not
 
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arabella

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Trojan, you are right about the consensus business. It's not possible to obtain, nor desirable, and several people -- I think Gato and Peter in particular, readily pointed to the fallacy too when I cast about trying to straighten out a misunderstanding and the possibility of sending an apologetic letter. If the Yi were a "sport" it would be a really personal one.

In relation to this casting, I don't have a convincing instinct and this was a reason for the casting, and for this thread.

Something is changing in this relationship, that I can feel -- which is one reason I asked about the move for employment, more or less as a barometer, because I'm not sure where we're going now, and that might be an indicator. If I left here for different employment I would have resolved within myself that it is worthwhile, so I was actually joking suggesting I might be the one in tears. I'd have to be well past that point for the move to have the purpose it would need as it's a rather extreme situation to go into for a job.

The second reason I referred the casting to here is that I was surprised by it. If he had a reaction, I wouldn't have expected one that strong but, then again, I think there's something afoot and I'm just seeing the "edges" so far. I should probably say, ALL of the readings I've done about him lately are surprising and would indicate a major change in his view of our connection. But I don't see that in our personal communication, which is puzzling.

Having said that, he has no idea I could be leaving -- that certain conditions could make it critical to go. So that isn't in the discussion now and I can't observe any reaction he might have to that idea. I can only cast for inspiration/information on that score.
 
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arabella

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I muse from time to time on whether the Yi would give information about someone else's thoughts. Why wouldn't we have access to that vibration -- when you think how many factors a casting can rely upon, including other's ideas, attitudes, thoughts and decisions. If we can only divine about ourselves, that's a fairly limited oracle isn't it? I realise I've just popped the lid off the worm can here -- but at the heart of it, why wouldn't we have a resonant connection with people close and "sense" their state of mind [in sutble ways we can't define perhaps] and be able to enquire about it?
 

Trojina

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Something is changing in this relationship, that I can feel -- which is one reason I asked about the move for employment, more or less as a barometer, because I'm not sure where we're going now, and that might be an indicator. If I left here for different employment I would have resolved within myself that it is worthwhile, so I was actually joking suggesting I might be the one in tears. I'd have to be well past that point for the move to have the purpose it would need as it's a rather extreme situation to go into for a job.

:confused: you were joking it was you mourning ? I don't understand what you mean since to me it seems like you already mourn in your way. I don't mean weeping and wailing but theres a degree of resignation on your part that this relationship isn't really bringing what you wanted...at least thats what you said in other threads ? The way i see that note of resignation in your tone is a kind of mourning so i see it quite possible 30.5 refers to you so don't understand why it would be a joke

The second reason I referred the casting to here is that I was surprised by it. If he had a reaction, I wouldn't have expected one that strong but, then again, I think there's something afoot and I'm just seeing the "edges" so far. I should probably say, ALL of the readings I've done about him lately are surprising and would indicate a major change in his view of our connection. But I don't see that in our personal communication, which is puzzling.

no need to justify posting...only with a question such as this where you really seem to be asking if 30.5 refers to you or him noone else can really answer that with certainty





I muse from time to time on whether the Yi would give information about someone else's thoughts. Why wouldn't we have access to that vibration -- when you think how many factors a casting can rely upon, including other's ideas, attitudes, thoughts and decisions. If we can only divine about ourselves, that's a fairly limited oracle isn't it? I realise I've just popped the lid off the worm can here -- but at the heart of it, why wouldn't we have a resonant connection with people close and "sense" their state of mind [in sutble ways we can't define perhaps] and be able to enquire about it?

I haven't said the Yi does not ever give us an understanding of anothers position...infact I made a point of saying i was not saying that :confused: yet people always read it as that...I have not said we can only divine about ourselves :confused: only that you posted here because you didn't know if the 30.5 referred to you or him...at least thats how i understood your first post but now you say you were joking about it being about you so if you were sure it was about him why did you ask us ? Did you just want it to be confirmed that he was 'gutted' ? I thought you were aware when you asked the question that there is always the possibility when asking of anothers feelings etc that the Yi will tell you all about yours instead....since by and large our own are what what we work with. I thought you were aware of the possibilty it was about you and that you were asking us if it were about you or him. In my experience FWIW i would say Yi generally places us in the answer somewhere ...how can it not... it can hardly leave us out of the picture since we ask from our own stance and all perceptions of the other are seen from that anyway

Confused because from what you say now you never did think it might be referring to you....you were only joking when you said that ?



You say hes 'halfway in my life' and you ask if he would care if you went ?...well to my ears theres quite alot of sadness in those statements/questions......which would fit 30.5 pretty well IMO, which make it a reasonable interpretation that 30.5 could refer to you rather than him
 
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arabella

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It is somewhat "tongue in cheek" to say, are those my tears, as I did ask about him. I'm assuming in that case, the moving line can't be about me -- it shouldn't be anyway. But then, considering what this line says, I'm a bit incredulous, yes, if he suddenly turns up with uncontrolled emotion, as bottled up as this man has been. So I want to know that there isn't some esoteric meaning for the line that I'm missing either.

As already said, I've been fairly incredulous on all the readings I've gotten lately about him. Rather unbelievable that this has taken a new turn. Meanwhile, I wanted some confirmation that I'm reading these lines correctly and not exaggerating his potential reaction either. And, I'd like to know that Hex 13 isn't just a large wonderful group hug or something, because that's not what I'm talking about either. Also, if the mourning is mine then -- what is Hex 13 supposed to be?

I think the preferred methods of phrasing questions in relation to someone else's thoughts is relatively pervasive, most everyone who has given an opinion on this seems to think you can't "intrude" in somebody else's mental domain -- so I wasn't particularly referring to you Trojan or some philosophy that I imagine you have. You said sometimes it works. I think it does too. And I am questioning why it's so pervasive and somewhat frowned upon. Why we assume it isn't so effective.

And, sometimes I really resonate with the readings I get -- and sometimes I don't. My instincts can be great, or just awful. Sometimes other's interpretations don't resonate either and then it comes down to seeing what happens and try to discover which castings and interpretations did hold the truth up to the light. It's a learning process, that's certain.
 

Trojina

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It is somewhat "tongue in cheek" to say, are those my tears, as I did ask about him. I'm assuming in that case, the moving line can't be about me -- it shouldn't be anyway. But then, considering what this line says, I'm a bit incredulous, yes, if he suddenly turns up with uncontrolled emotion, as bottled up as this man has been. So I want to know that there isn't some esoteric meaning for the line that I'm missing either.

oh i hadn't realised you had assumed that. In my own readings I keep it really open how the oracle may answer particularly if I'm asking about how someone is feeling towards me. I don't think Yi answers each question exactly as we put it but tells us what we need to know. Its possible one is incredulous for good reason...i can't see why it 'shouldn't' be about you. You are your main business, your development is what the oracle addresses consistently even via the most mundane questions...



As already said, I've been fairly incredulous on all the readings I've gotten lately about him. Rather unbelievable that this has taken a new turn. Meanwhile, I wanted some confirmation that I'm reading these lines correctly and not exaggerating his potential reaction either. And, I'd like to know that Hex 13 isn't just a large wonderful group hug or something, because that's not what I'm talking about either. Also, if the mourning is mine then -- what is Hex 13 supposed to be?

How can someone else confirm you are reading the line correctly ? If i had this answer to this question and was incredulous I'd allow a bit of room to manouvre...Yi is no slot machine as you know. When people stick fast and hard to believing their exact question is being answered they end up later saying 'why did Yi lie to me i had all these great relationship readings and it didn't work out'...I think sometimes Yi asks us to take a slight shift inperspective....but its not cerebral I think we feel our way into it..so its hard to describe really. Don't understand yur question underlined...what do you think 13 is if the mourning is his ?


I think the preferred methods of phrasing questions in relation to someone else's thoughts is relatively pervasive, most everyone who has given an opinion on this seems to think you can't "intrude" in somebody else's mental domain -- so I wasn't particularly referring to you Trojan or some philosophy that I imagine you have. You said sometimes it works. I think it does too. And I am questioning why it's so pervasive and somewhat frowned upon. Why we assume it isn't so effective.

Because surely consulting Yi is largely about finding our way more harmoniously, with greater understanding of our own position in the whole picture at any time. Following our own path, our own way, isn't especially enhanced by figuring others private motives is it which is why so often Yi returns an answer directed at us. But also its often just so ineffective a way to ask a question abiout a relationship ...doens't help. For one thing you often can't be sure who it refers to and also it gives you no guidance yourself...

Think of what was behind your question'''will he care if i leave' What did you really want to know from that question ? Obviously you don't feel he seems to care much and you would like that he did. You get an answer you think says he'd mourn if you go and you like that answer but has it really helped you in anyway ? Where has this question actually got you ?

I do ask about others feelings sometimes but i have noted over and over and over again the Yi nudges me, patiently back to where I am with the relationship, what I'm doing. Afterall its my life I'm living not theirs.
 
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Trojina

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And, sometimes I really resonate with the readings I get -- and sometimes I don't. My instincts can be great, or just awful. Sometimes other's interpretations don't resonate either and then it comes down to seeing what happens and try to discover which castings and interpretations did hold the truth up to the light. It's a learning process, that's certain.

Yes well one thing many have learned i think is that lots of 'good' I Ching readings on a relationship don't always culminate into what the person thought it meant...something else is often going on...often a truth much bigger than the truth about any particular relationship....
 
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gato

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Trojan, you are right about the consensus business. It's not possible to obtain, nor desirable, and several people -- I think Gato and Peter in particular, readily pointed to the fallacy too when I cast about trying to straighten out a misunderstanding and the possibility of sending an apologetic letter. If the Yi were a "sport" it would be a really personal one.

if you change your perspective from passive ( what will happen ) to active ( how do i get there ) and use Yi as a guide you will be amazed.
 

rosada

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Maybe you both sigh and lament.

Looking at 30.5:

First, 30 is the hexagram made up of two trigrams of fire. Like two jogging partners, 30. suggests two strong individuals who are heading in the same direction but who are not dependent on each other. 30.5 "Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting. Good fortune" describes one of the two leaving. As is often the case when people are together frequently, the fire had been taken for granted. Now that it is going out this leads to "Tears in floods" for the missed opportunity.
So a very close description to just what you were asking in your question. When a hexagram seems to clearly mirror the question I take it that you can interpret the answer literally. Thus I would say the I Ching is confirming that if you were to leave, your friend may very well be sad to see you go and regret they did not appreciate you more when you were close by. I think it's also possible that you will miss your friend more than you expect to too.
The change to Fellowship with Men seems to be saying that although you may both come to appreciate each other more after you part ways, it appears if you do decide to make such a move you would not then change your mind. You might regret leaving and he might regret not having spent more time together when you were close by but Fellowship with Men sounds like you both move on and this budding romance gets down graded to Friends.

rosada
 

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To me Hex 13 is like the guys in the three musketeers, "all for one, and one for all", sort of thing where the people not only watch out for each other but they also work together as a unit.

But Hex 13 indicates that someone has to take the lead, so Arabella is the unofficial leader here, she has to lead by example.
 

arabella

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Yes, I'm definitely the leader of this and when I lead I seem to have a willing follower who is enjoying the ride which always leaves me feeling we are in this together and it's very worth doing. I won't say there haven't been spontaneous moves by him, because there certainly have been, but I still sometimes wonder where we are headed and have to careful not to predicate my entire existence on a few dinner invitations and friendly visits in a year.

Rosada's image of the fire being washed out with tears is probably what I do imagine -- everyone's loss if I toss this in the air -- but I don't know how to change this cycle [if it can be changed] and feeling like I'm doing what I can to inspire development of this relationship, but the response is consistent and measured.

I think it would be a missed opportunity to leave, yet there has to be a good enough reason to stay, not a lifetime of "measured." A pal is nice, but not what I had in mind. And you're right, Rosada, if I made up my mind to cut the cord and go, I wouldn't change it back. It's my nature to throw everything into the next development, so I know turning that corner is a big choice and anything to consider about this relationship has to happen now.

Back to the drawingboard with Gato's idea in mind. What can I do to influence this situation for the best? is the question I asked. And I cast: Hex 28.2.4.5 changing to Hex 15. Oh boy, an inadequate framework sounds accurate. Everything overloaded. Something withered sprouting flowers -- which I never quite understand whether that's the present situation improving or a new one arriving.

Hex 15 appears to be the story of my life since it turns up about every other reading and I interpret that to mean, no matter what the occasion or situation you have to remain as level, sensible, and consistent as you are able; try not to simply react, make a real decision or take a real direction molded from the best you have to give. Which is what I'm trying to do, I believe.
 

arabella

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Second casting: What's the best thing that I can do in this relationship? The result is Hex 45, judgement. Gathering together with like-minded people is one element that comes to mind, but that can denote a myriad of places and conditions, including the one I'm in. Again, this is a situation requiring a leader as well. AAaaaah, I seem to be going in circles.
 
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arabella

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Based upon an earlier discussion I had followed Gato's advice to hold a Yi conversation; to cast a flowing sequence of questions and record the answers, then look back and pay attention to the pattern. That had seemed to reveal, in this instance I'm consulting on now, a change in how we are communicating, a forward direction, that has inspired the idea this is a consideration as I change all of life now and maybe leave the country -- again. From a personal point of view, I'm great at leaving things. I'm terrific at looking to the NEXT rather than refining the present. Knowing that as I see some of the waste that produces makes me think longer now before I push something, or someone, to the side.
 

arabella

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Last casting: "Can I find success in this relationship?" Result: Hex 54.2.4.5 changing to Hex 3.

Background here, if you aren't aware, this man lost his wife a few years ago and that was devastating for him as they were a wonderful match. He recently seems to be recovering and regaining his sense of self. I also lost my spouse, some years ago, which is what attracted him to speak to me, but my husband was a problematic person and it was confusing for a number of years to be glad he was gone, for both me and my children, so the "connection" with this man of losing a spouse is a somewhat tenous one. In his case, another relationship must seem risky in relation to the first one.
 

arabella

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I've read over what you have written Rosada, quite a few times, and it rings true. This is the exact dilemma. You've put your finger on the pulse. Now I have to figure out -- what to do?
 

arabella

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So I asked the YI: "What to do with a relationship that is taken for granted." Casting: Hex 23 judgment. Alright. Fair enough, and obvious when you think of it. So another approach: "What to do to avoid the tears in this case?" Hex 17 judgment. Naturally. Getting nowhere fast and feeling really stupid. Think I'll take a nap when I've stopped laughing.
 
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gato

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keep in mind H8.1 whenever you do a conversation with Yi. "Truth, like a full earthen bowl. " It helped me alot.

(p.s. and skip sinlge hexes)
 

arabella

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Gato, I get your meaning of course to do with the sincerity needed to consult and have a meaningful answer. What about expectations? It may seem a fundamental or academic discussion, but in your experience what is better -- to keep your agenda in mind, or no particular expectations. As Trojan was saying, the Yi may answer something you didn't ask. Which implies -- no expectations. Or maybe it doesn't matter -- the Yi will say what it wants to regardless of what you are thinking you'd like to know.
 

gato

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Gato, I get your meaning of course to do with the sincerity needed to consult and have a meaningful answer. What about expectations? It may seem a fundamental or academic discussion, but in your experience what is better -- to keep your agenda in mind, or no particular expectations. As Trojan was saying, the Yi may answer something you didn't ask. Which implies -- no expectations. Or maybe it doesn't matter -- the Yi will say what it wants to regardless of what you are thinking you'd like to know.

To me , Yi works in this way : when i'm concerned about something he start describing the situation and best actions to take ( including emotions or change in attitude ). I usually do not ask specific question I just focus on the subject ( if you are not focused or clear minded you will not get clear answers. remember that old image: you can't see yourself in lake full of ripples ). so i don't ask specific questions i just let myself drawn but i'm constantly aware of my thoughts ( which is the hardest part ). the next hard part is to understand what is he saying. the light of superior man is true :mischief:

after awhile the connection is so strong as if I was really talking with someone. "the imaginary friend" . weird.
 

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What about expectations? It may seem a fundamental or academic discussion, but in your experience what is better -- to keep your agenda in mind, or no particular expectations. As Trojan was saying, the Yi may answer something you didn't ask. Which implies -- no expectations. Or maybe it doesn't matter -- the Yi will say what it wants to regardless of what you are thinking you'd like to know.

If you don't have a question in mind then how will you know what the answer is referring to?

If you get an answer that is meaningless to the situation, then it is meaningless because you don't have a clue what it is trying to tell you.

Therefore, all questions receive a valid answer pertaining to the question asked, it is up to the querent to see that answer and how it fits their situation.
 

willowfox

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Second casting: What's the best thing that I can do in this relationship? The result is Hex 45, judgement. Gathering together with like-minded people is one element that comes to mind, but that can denote a myriad of places and conditions, including the one I'm in. Again, this is a situation requiring a leader as well. AAaaaah, I seem to be going in circles.

Hex 45 suggests a meeting between you and him, to talk about birds and bees and what comes after. To ask whether he is going to dance or forever sit on the sidelines.
 

gato

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If you don't have a question in mind then how will you know what the answer is referring to?

the 8.1 earthen bowl cannot be filled if it's already full of your questions.
 

arabella

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I compose a question as a focal point, and when I'm casting I try to get as a clear a mental image of the situation I'm enquiring about as I possibly can. There is definitely a quality to me about the casting process and whether it feels "legitimate" or not. If it's not solid I might abandon the question, the casting, or both, and start over again later on. There really is a conversational quality Gato, definitely, when you get the feeling you're in synchronisation with the Yi. Amazing, isn't it? I've heard of people casting coins with no question in mind, or in a "neutral" state about a question. I think I can't do it. I don't know how. Even when I used the "conversational" method you were talking about I still felt like my side of the discussion was question, question, question. Maybe as with friends, mentors, there are different types of conversations with the Yi as well.
 
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gato

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I compose a question as a focal point, and when I'm casting I try to get as a clear a mental image of the situation I'm enquiring about as I possibly can. There is definitely a quality to me about the casting process and whether it feels "legitimate" or not. If it's not solid I might abandon the question, the casting, or both, and start over again later on. There really is a conversational quality Gato, definitely, when you get the feeling you're in synchronisation with the Yi. Amazing, isn't it? I've heard of people casting coins with no question in mind, or in a "neutral" state about a question. I think I can't do it. I don't know how. Even when I used the "conversational" method you were talking about I still felt like my side of the discussion was question, question, question. Maybe as with friends, mentors, there are different types of conversations with the Yi as well.

keeping still, clearing your mind is the foundation of all divination systems and the gate to spiritual realm... self-willed man cannot be helped too much, so you got a good point to start.

and no mental images as they can be deceiving. focus your energy on your chest.
 
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