Kalachakra and the three wheels

[Annamaria]

I wonder How you perceive/understand / feel about the Kalachakra's three wheels , and moreover if you see any correlations with i ching?
http://www.dalailama.com/teachings/kalachakra-initiations

 

[sooo]

Initially at least, I see the Hinayana path as being related to the Yijing. However, that may be because it is the path I feel called to. The destruction of self was once attractive to me, to become one with all, but compassion is too compelling a force to abandon self at this time; my self or someone else's self. If there's no purpose to individualism, there would be no creation or Maya. Maya is the great mother. That there is suffering in the individual incarnation is just part of life. In the most absolute sense, Mahayana seems not only selfless but ultimately selfish. Perhaps both can exist in one, and perhaps this is the goal the Yijing ultimately leads to.

Thank you for helping me understand my dream. :bows:

 

[sooo]

I like the inner/outer wheel concept of Kalachakra. I do see these things as early ritualized visualizations, which today might be described in terms of physics, which doesn't take anything away from the early conceptualizations, it just doesn't limit them to the early ways of addressing them; in fact it makes physics more colorful.

 

[Annamaria]

Hi sooo

First of all thank you for your comments and i am glad that i could help you with understanding your dream ( and it is not a mockery)
Secondly, because this thread is still here it is the meaning that i continue with it. That is fine with me, i wanted to learn and instead of fighting it by putting shades on My eyes and pretending not being able to hear i choose myself that i want to see and hear, and with some of luck maybe even admit i can feel.
Now thirdly, sorry for this long introduction , but i need to be clear from the beginning that i started this thread in order to find more about Kalachakra, not meaning that i want to choose this as My path or
experience it , i do not want to take the divination too lightheartedly.

There is some information on kalachakra that i could Google, also the terms. With some ability to discern i can understand them at my beginner level what i am mostly interested in finding out is your experiences with it, this i would appreciate if you and anyone else would be so kind to compassionetely share here. I have more specific questions but i wait to ask them depending on the answers i am hopefylly be getting.
Thank you!:bows:

 

[Annamaria]

Hi sooo

First of all thank you for your comments and i am glad that i could help you with understanding your dream ( and it is not a mockery)
Secondly, because this thread is still here i Will continue with it, i wanted to learn and instead of fighting it by putting shades on My eyes and pretending not being able to hear i choose myself that i want to see and hear, and with some of luck maybe even admit i can feel
Now thirdly, sorry for this long introduction , but i need to be clear from the beginning that i started this thread in order to find more about Kalachakra, not meaning that i want to choose this as My path or
experience it , i do not want to take the divination too lightheartedly.

There is some information on kalachakra that i could Google, also the terms. With some ability to discern i can understand them at my beginner level what i am mostly interested in finding out is your experiences with it, this i would appreciate if you and anyone else would be so kind to compassionetely share here. I have more specific questions but i wait to ask them depending on the answers i am hoppfully be getting.
Thank you!:bows:

 

[sooo]

My apology, Annamaria. The first part of the article so grabbed my attention that I didn't address your specific question, mainly because of the relevancy to something I've been questioning, and brought it to top of mind. The two forms were already familiar but the timing seemed too synchronized to let pass by. Then I read further and was interested in the two inner/outer aspects of the Kalachakra wheel, but I still did not address your specific question. Because I have no prior knowledge or experience with Kalachakra, by that name, though I don't put much stock in identifying something as being exclusive because of a name, as I'd also mentioned, I'll read up on it more, though time will be limited for the next few days, before I may have something more specifically to say directed toward your question.

Wish you better luck in finding someone to discuss it with.

 

[sooo]

This is more or less what I was trying to say.

The purpose of the Kalachakra version is quite different. It is to provide the Buddhist equivalent of a unified field theory that explains the structure and workings of the cosmos, atoms, the human body and the experience of rebirth in a parallel manner. The need for this unified theory is to provide a comprehensive basis, covering as much of samsara as possible, at which to aim the meditative practices of alternative Kalachakra for gaining liberation and enlightenment.

One of the most interesting points from the Kalachakra description of the universe is its description of space particles. The Kalachakra Tantra speaks a great deal about atomic particles and the six elements – earth, water, fire, wind, space and consciousness or deep awareness. This last element is not physical and corresponds to primordial clear light mind, the basis from which the other, grosser elements manifest and on which they rest. Corresponding to the five grosser elements are five types of atomic or subatomic particles – earth particles, water particles and so on – each more subtle than the last. The most subtle are space particles which constitute the smallest building blocks of matter. When the four grosser particles are manifest, space particles are the space between them.

In Kalachakra, these space particles are intimately linked to the origins of a universe. This presentation has aroused the interest of scientists, as it suggests certain points that can be related to modern ideas about the structure of the universe. All universes are made of atomic particles. According to current scientific theory, the universe starts with a big bang, expands by means of particles and atoms becoming increasingly complex and compounding together, and then contracts and ends with a big crunch. Similarly, Kalachakra describes eons of formation in which atomic particles also join together, followed by eons of endurance and eons of disintegration.

What is of particular interest is the period in between these cycles. Buddhism calls these periods "empty eons," while the closest equivalent in modern science is the period in which a galaxy contracts into a black hole. According to the abhidharma description, during empty eons the basic elements exist merely in potential form. The Kalachakra teachings, however, say that in this period only a space particle exists. In this context, a space particle consists of a trace of the grosser elemental particles of a universe which are no longer joined together. In scientific terms, this is a situation in which the ordinary laws of physics do not operate, as is the case with black holes.

Although the Kalachakra material, with its external, internal and alternative cycles, abounds with symmetry, it is important not to be a slave to order and expect that everything in the universe be neat and regular, or that we can always be in control. As one of my Tibetan mentors, Sharpa Rinpoche, once said, "Symmetry is stupid." Although many things in this world are indeed analogous to each other, if we insist that everything is inherently symmetrical and therefore controllable, we are living in a fantasy of false expectation. Just because there are five of this, does not necessarily mean there are five of that. Unexpected exceptions always occur.

It is important to not be seduced by one culture's way of embracing and explaining these phenomenon, but rather to see the phenomenon as universal. The gods and goddesses of these ancient religions beautifully and eloquently depict what today's cutting edge physicists depict, which is also beautiful, just as deep mathematics is a thing of beauty to a mathematician. The principles resurface according to the utility required by the time. Though there's nothing wrong with the study of these ancient rites, one can lose oneself if they believe they are something in and of themselves. Carl Jung repeatedly warned of this kind practice and of psychological damage it could inflict. Joseph Campbell taught that in order for a myth to be relative to the age of technology, it must include that technology in its mythology. To fail to do this is to take the axle off the wagon. One can study or even worship the wagon but it can't take them anywhere.
26.2 The axletrees are taken from the wagon.
(It's noteworthy that 26 deals a great deal with historical knowledge)
Contrast this with 14.2
14.2 A big wagon for loading.
One may undertake something.

Three circles of Kalachakra can be likened loosely to other forms of trinity, though it has its own cultural, historical and mythological symbolic references. They are not the same, but their symbolism is not so different.

The two dancing deities of Kalachakra are none other than the dancing deities found in ancient Egyptian culture, Hindu pantheons, Yin and Yang, or the Yijing's Heaven and Earth. To bring it to modern simplified engineering terms, they are the hot wire and the ground wire found in every electrical appliance in our homes.

This is what I've found and what I have to offer on the subject. I'll leave its relevancy to your question to you.

Respectfully,
Bruce

 

[Annamaria]

Hi Bruce,
Firstly, I do appreciate and thank you for your comment! And most of all for thank you for letting me decide its relevancy.
Secondly, I’d like being nourished at the source that is why I would like to ask you to send/give me the sources of your excerpts, please.
Thirdly, concerning the excerpt no 1 and the notion of samsara; I recall Joe Campbell talking in one of his videos about the three bonds, that is the burning passion of desire, jealousy as well as ignorance that prevent one from reaching nirvana (which to me it means to be united with the Creator after the death of the physical body). Yhe knowledge of that once they are overcome one can escape the karmic wheel of birth, death and rebirth is very reassuring to me.
As for the Shri Kalachakra deity I can discern her two faces, the peaceful one and the wrathful one. As one, as a whole I perceive her more as a black hole, there I agree with you that even the modern era scientist have no really much to come up with in order to describe what it really is. In a Swedish scientific magazine about cosmos I found however that every black whole has its counter part - a white hole, and what disappears in the black hole manifests itself in the white, there to me the symmetry law works pretty.
As for excerpt no 2,3 thanks to the time I spend on this forum I realized that there must be more to what Kalachakra Tantra Energy (the Wheel of Time) described in the link I attached to my first comment as well as what is being said in The Brief History of Kalachakra, by John R. Newman, that I was compelled to ask myself what am I missing here? And I found some criticism regarding Kalachakra, which I would like to share with others; The Shadow of the Dalali Lama – Annex: Critical Forum Kalachakra by Victor and Victoria Trimondi, www.trimondi.de
I do not have a mentor or a guru I follow, except my breath, the inhale/exhale, coming and going that comes from my heart. And that I am very greatful for. So I do not concentrate on the dualities in concepts like symmetry, finding them neither wise or unwise, they just are, like compassion, kindness and respect. As for the beauty of phenomena you describe I have learned as you to see through that veil too, the simpler things are the more its true essence shines through them. I totally agree with you that practising Kalachakra is not desirable for a person like me who wants to stay healthy and sound.
The YiJing cast you share, what was the question you asked?
I am asking because when I asked Yi about my situation here on this thread I received advice to equip the metal wagon I arrived with here with some axle straps to make it move more swiftly  - Yijing really is amazing, I do feel I am learning all the time.
Finally I could not resist sharing with you this poem I found it on the Inner Frontier website:

The Seeker
Adapted from Rumi

After years of inner work,
A seeker found the door of the Beloved and knocked.
A voice asked:
“Who is there?”
The seeker answered:
“It is I.”
The voice said:
“There is no room for me and you.”
And the door stayed shut.
The persistent seeker engaged in ever deeper spiritual practice,
And then returned to the door of the Beloved and knocked.
The voice from within asked:
“Who is there?”
And the door opened,
And the seeker opened
And said:
“It is You.”

With respect,
Anna

 

[Annamaria]

Hi Bruce,
Firstly, I do appreciate and thank you for your comment! And most of all for thank you for letting me decide its relevancy.
Secondly, I’d like being nourished at the source that is why I would like to ask you to send/give me the sources of your excerpts, please.
Thirdly, concerning the excerpt no 1 and the notion of samsara; I recall Joe Campbell talking in one of his videos about the three bonds, that is the burning passion of desire, jealousy as well as ignorance that prevent one from reaching nirvana (which to me it means to be united with the Creator after the death of the physical body). Yhe knowledge of that once they are overcome one can escape the karmic wheel of birth, death and rebirth is very reassuring to me.
As for the Shri Kalachakra deity I can discern her two faces, the peaceful one and the wrathful one. As one, as a whole I perceive her more as a black hole, there I agree with you that even the modern era scientist have no really much to come up with in order to describe what it really is. In a Swedish scientific magazine about cosmos I found however that every black whole has its counter part - a white hole, and what disappears in the black hole manifests itself in the white, there to me the symmetry law works pretty.
As for excerpt no 2,3 thanks to the time I spend on this forum I realized that there must be more to what Kalachakra Tantra Energy (the Wheel of Time) described in the link I attached to my first comment as well as what is being said in The Brief History of Kalachakra, by John R. Newman, that I was compelled to ask myself what am I missing here? And I found some criticism regarding Kalachakra, which I would like to share with others; The Shadow of the Dalali Lama – Annex: Critical Forum Kalachakra by Victor and Victoria Trimondi, www.trimondi.de
I do not have a mentor or a guru I follow, except my breath, the inhale/exhale, coming and going that comes from my heart. And that I am very greatful for. So I do not concentrate on the dualities in concepts like symmetry, finding them neither wise or unwise, they just are, like compassion, kindness and respect. As for the beauty of phenomena you describe I have learned as you to see through that veil too, the simpler things are the more its true essence shines through them. I totally agree with you that practising Kalachakra is not desirable for a person like me who wants to stay healthy and sound.
The YiJing cast you share, what was the question you asked?
I am asking because when I asked Yi about my situation here on this thread I received advice to equip the metal wagon I arrived with here with some axle straps to make it move more swiftly  - Yijing really is amazing, I do feel I am learning all the time.
Finally I could not resist sharing with you this poem I found it on the Inner Frontier website:

The Seeker
Adapted from Rumi

After years of inner work,
A seeker found the door of the Beloved and knocked.
A voice asked:
“Who is there?”
The seeker answered:
“It is I.”
The voice said:
“There is no room for me and you.”
And the door stayed shut.
The persistent seeker engaged in ever deeper spiritual practice,
And then returned to the door of the Beloved and knocked.
The voice from within asked:
“Who is there?”
And the door opened,
And the seeker opened
And said:
“It is You.”

With respect,
Anna

 

[sooo]

Hi Annamaria,

I'm up briefly in the middle of the night. I don't want wake up my brain too much, treating it like a baby who woke in the night, so I'll only be brief and a bit shallow, as much as I enjoy these areas of conversation. Better to be gentle at this time. Much work awaits tomorrow and my chi is limited these days.

I'd searched several sources, and this one caught my attention. It'll take more than a brief search to relocate it. Perhaps in the daylight. I think it was from one of the links of this site. http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/n.html_554862326.html . Oh, here it is. Scroll down to Space Particles and the Origins of a Universe. http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/e..._initiation/pt2/kalachakra_initiation_03.html

I asked Yi nothing about this topic yet, as I've dealt with it on the fly, between my chores and clients who can't make up their minds about their horse's diet. Horses and dogs are easy, humans, particularly women horse people can be maddening! My references were only from the Yi texts regarding utilization or function of the wagon, the wagon in this case being Kalachakra, since that was the point I wished to make: practical utilization. No point in offering already dead sheep and baskets of rotted fruit.

I wonder if the Campbell video you refer to was in his Mythos. That is my source of his technology/myth quote, or reference to it rather. He covers enormous ground in that series, it would not surprise me. I've viewed it at least a dozen times so far.

The Seeker poem is very much in accord with my view, where ultimately there is no me and thou, there is only this.

While our focus may not be identical, I don't think we're too far off. I'm neither traditional nor literal, but more a seeker of practical modern day applications of ancient esoteric texts and symbols. I think a wagon is not only more functional with its axle trees, but more ascetic as well. I don't expect our Bardo will the same as ancient Tibetan ones, nor their symbolic deities. They are after all foreign to our psyche. We have our own demons and angels to teach and guide us, as they are still us, as the ancient deities were to those wanderers.

Time to put the baby to bed.

Until the sun rises again. :bows:

 

[Annamaria]

Hi again Bruce,
Thank you very much for your comment.
I just hope that you have not misunderstood the main point I wished to make that is: I am more into the Christ consciousness than buddism, and achieving oneneness with the Divine/ Beloved Through simple meditation NOT rituals with tantra like energies.

This is very important to me , and if you can accept that then I am ready to continue our conversation.
With respect,
Anna

 

[sooo]

Hi Annamaria,

I'm lost as to what point you are making or seeking through Kalachakra. I've tried to share thoughts with you about and around the subject, but seemed to have failed or offended, or something; I'm not quite sure what.

Anyhow, the stalls and corral need cleaning. That's my meditation. It quite deep, since it's rained all night.

 

[Annamaria]

Hi Bruce,
This is what i tried to point your attention to in one of my first comments:
"but i need to be clear from the beginning that i started this thread in order to find more about Kalachakra, not meaning that i want to choose this as My path or
experience it , i do not want to take the divination too lightheartedly"

So I am absolutely NOT seeking or making any points through Kalachakra. I just wanted to find out what is YOUR experience of it. My apologies to you if I was not clear about it.

Here on the contrary it is still very dry, I do not know when it is possibly going to rain, can be a long waiting
Thank you once more for an interesting conversation.
Take care,
Anna