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Later Heaven hexagram explanation

nina1609

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Hi everyone,

I have studied the book "The Astrology of I Ching" from the author W.K. Chu and edited by W.A. Sherrill.
I calculated my natal hexagram (62) and this year it will change into later heaven hexagram number 21.
I read the explanations od the hexagram 21 in some I Ching books but I am a little confused.
Can someone explain the simple meaning of hexagram 21 to me?

thank you,

Boris
 

Liselle

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From Hilary's book:

Oracle
‘Biting through, creating success.
Fruitful to use legal proceedings.’


Image
‘Thunder and lightning.
Biting Through.
The ancient kings brought light to punishments and enforced the laws.’


As you can see, both the Oracle and Image are full of references to laws and punishments. Are you involved in any kind of court case? (It wouldn't necessarily mean that's a bad thing...court cases do benefit people, and the line in the Oracle says it's "fruitful.")

The legal references could also be metaphorical. Is there any part of your life where you feel like you're arguing a case in court? Or it could mean chewing and gnawing on something to try to get to the bottom of it (maybe trying to figure something out), or trying to find out the truth about something, as they do in court. "[Bringing] light to" punishments could mean understanding why something is the way it is, or why something is happening, maybe particularly something unpleasant.

Or maybe if you're in any kind of position where you have to enforce rules or maintain discipline, you might find yourself doing a lot of that?

I got 21 unchanging once when my cat was clearly unhappy with the blankets in his bed, which I had (gasp!) rearranged. (I had good intentions in doing this, but he did not appreciate it.) I then tried to get the blankets back the way they were, and asked Yi how satisfactory that would be. A few minutes later, my cat was asleep in his bed, and I have a note that maybe 21 here meant "righting a wrong," which might be a positive example of something like legal proceedings.

There is an entire thread about hexagram 21 in its unchanging form, which might be helpful for you:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie...eriences-with-Unchanging-Castings-Hexagram-21
 

nina1609

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Thank you very much for your answer.

I am not involved in any court case and I am also not in a position where I have to enforce rules.

After reading your answer for a few times I thought there might be some areas where my understanding might help me clear the obstacles that I have. (or biting through them)

(I have health problem that I would like to solve, I can say that at work many times I do feel like I am arguing a case in court. I am often being accused of doing something wrong while I did my best with my best intentions, I have to calm down my mind or emotions in order to be more succesful in my life,... )

I will try to look at my life from this pespective and see what will happen.
 

Liselle

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Hi Nina,

I should have mentioned that while I listed a few things that hexagram 21 could mean, I don't know a single thing about the methods you used. I've seen the term "Later Heaven," but I don't know what it is nor what it means. Thank you for mentioning the title of the book, in case someone else wants to read it.

I think it would be interesting to all of us to know how this turns out. Would you be willing to come back and update the thread with your experiences? Thanks! :)
 

Trojina

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Hi everyone,

I have studied the book "The Astrology of I Ching" from the author W.K. Chu and edited by W.A. Sherrill.
I calculated my natal hexagram (62) and this year it will change into later heaven hexagram number 21.
I read the explanations od the hexagram 21 in some I Ching books but I am a little confused.
Can someone explain the simple meaning of hexagram 21 to me?

thank you,

Boris


I did this years ago but now think the very concept of a 'natal hexagram' is, well, questionable to say the least. The I Ching, Book of Change, for navigation of change, rather than a book of classifying oneself with a hexagram for one's entire lifetime. If you aren't familiar with Yi it's even less of a good idea. So my advice is forget both 62 and 21 as telling you anything at all about your entire life. A book of changes is not a book of staying the same. I feel the same about yearly casts. So if 21 is for this year...well how can everything that occurs in one year come under the auspices of 21 ?

My unsolicited advice is just start consulting the I Ching with actual questions about what is happening for you now. Get to know the oracle and then, if you are still interested, go back to studying the concepts in Sherrill's book. I just think if you do it that way around you'd be better placed to understand the casts for 'natal hexagram' and so on.
 

Liselle

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Thanks for the link, Svenrus. I downloaded the program and put in my data, but obviously I don't know what it's doing and it all seems very complicated. Whether I spend enough time on it to understand it is a good question. (It won't be today, at the very least.) Have you found it helpful? Would you be willing to tell us what you've learned from it and so forth?
 

Liselle

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Trojina, you make a good point ("A book of changes is not a book of staying the same," etc.) And I'm not sure about the value of elaborate schemes of correspondences between systems (e.g. I Ching and astrology, I Ching and tarot), rather than just using each system for its own strengths. There are commonalities and overlaps (e.g. hexagram 51 and the Tower card in tarot, maybe), but there are bound to be because all of these systems are describing human traits and human experience. Correspondences might help to flesh something out, maybe?

I've never been very disciplined about daily or weekly readings. Mostly out of laziness, also because I had some experiences with daily readings where they scared me for what seemed like no good reason. I figure I have enough to worry about already. Or, at the end of a day, the defining moment didn't seem to be related to the reading I'd gotten.

HOWEVER, readings can be so nuanced and work in so many different ways, and maybe I haven't given these enough of a chance? Made-up example - suppose I had a car accident, and my reading for the day did not obviously scream car crash or tell me not to leave the house. My first reaction might be to wonder why the I Ching hadn't warned me. But maybe what it did tell me, if I'd taken it to heart in the right way (whatever that might be), could have helped me go through the day in a way which would have prevented the crash? Not sure.
 
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svenrus

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Thanks for the link, Svenrus. I downloaded the program and put in my data, but obviously I don't know what it's doing and it all seems very complicated. Whether I spend enough time on it to understand it is a good question. (It won't be today, at the very least.) Have you found it helpful? Would you be willing to tell us what you've learned from it and so forth?

I linked it because nina1609 in #1 referres to the basics of this program

4pi.jpg

(Screenshot from the page. I have drawn the red circel to point it out)

and maybe nina1609 could get a better idea about the whole thing mentioned.
No, I've had it installed for a year or so and wouldn't claim to have a deeper insight in it yet. I guess - or rather I know that there are some members here who knows better than I.
 

Trojina

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Trojina, you make a good point ("A book of changes is not a book of staying the same," etc.) And I'm not sure about the value of elaborate schemes of correspondences between systems (e.g. I Ching and astrology, I Ching and tarot), rather than just using each system for its own strengths. There are commonalities and overlaps (e.g. hexagram 51 and the Tower card in tarot, maybe), but there are bound to be because all of these systems are describing human traits and human experience. Correspondences might help to flesh something out, maybe?

Personally I'm not a fan of schemes of correspondences between divination systems. However now and then a correspondence arises spontaneously in my mind....for example the 4 of cups in tarot reminds of the 47.2 or 47.5. I'm currently learning about runes but I'm not going to try to map them over the I Ching, yet no doubt there will points of correspondence, bound to be because all these systems work with human experience/divination/nature.

I've never been very disciplined about daily or weekly readings. Mostly out of laziness, also because I had some experiences with daily readings where they scared me for what seemed like no good reason. I figure I have enough to worry about already. Or, at the end of a day, the defining moment didn't seem to be related to the reading I'd gotten.

I often do daily casts, but take them quite lightly. I kind of enjoy them because a day is a short and defined unit and so often it's easy to see what the reading referred to. Sometimes it isn't and I don't mind because I don't take them so heavily. Often it is one's own mind frame that's referred to or a meaning that comes to the fore, something I learned about that day.

HOWEVER, readings can be so nuanced and work in so many different ways, and maybe I haven't given these enough of a chance? Made-up example - suppose I had a car accident, and my reading for the day did not obviously scream car crash or tell me not to leave the house. My first reaction might be to wonder why the I Ching hadn't warned me. But maybe what it did tell me, if I'd taken it to heart in the right way (whatever that might be), could have helped me go through the day in a way which would have prevented the crash? Not sure
.

I enjoy daily readings for their own sake. I would never let a daily cast stop me leaving the house...that would seem daft to me. I don't think I'd wonder why the IC hadn't warned me either since ....well I just don't see it that way. I don't wholly rely on the IC, I've got my own intuition, gut feeling, inner vision etc etc and also I'm aware I could have a car accident at any time anyway and when my time is up it's up. Days are often unremarkable in themselves. One might often simply be going through one's daily chores, work and so on. So I never do daily casts for some big prediction. I wouldn't recommend daily casts unless you have a fairly light attitude to them and also use your common sense and innate animal intuition to get through the day or not.....even the most intuitive animal runs into trouble some time
 

nina1609

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Yes I will certainly do so.

I did not even know about the free program. Thank you for this info.

I read the book and it took me quite some time to calculate my natal hexagram.
As I understood from the book there are 10 different kinds of energies from Heaven and 12 different kind of energies from Earth. A specific combination of those two groups of energies is present at the moment of one's birth.

These energies are in us and subtly influence us in our life. (It is similar like in western astrology)

Natal hexagram is therefore calculated by puting gender, year, month, day, hour and precise east or west earth longitude of place of birth into a calculation procedure.

Natal hexagram lasts from 36 to 54 years (depends on the yang and yin lines - yang line represents 9 years and yin line lasts 6 years) then it changes into Later Heaven hexagram also called post-natal hexagram.
Natal hexagram therefore consists of 6 subcycles where each lasts 6 or 9 years.
These subcycles can further be calculated into yearly and even weekly cycles. But I did not go that far and I do not have an interest in going so deep.

Natal hexagram therefore has nothing to do with I Ching divination method we all use in specific situation because it is part of one branch of chinese astrology.

This is so far. I hope I helped a little.
 

Trojina

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Natal hexagram therefore has nothing to do with I Ching divination method we all use in specific situation because it is part of one branch of chinese astrology
.

I know....so I wondered why you posted in the 'shared readings' section. It would probably be more helpful to you to post in Exploring Divination since this area is for sharing actual casts about questions.

Also, having done my own calculations with the Sherrill book back in 1980s it doesn't make sense to say it has nothing to do I Ching divination since the book itself is a version of the I Ching. You get your natal reading then you look it up in the usual way. So if your natal reading is 54.2 you look up 54.2 in the book and it gives the usual translation more or less...except as I recall there are horrifically general commentary predictions under each line for the kind of life you might have and so on.

You came asking what 21 meant for you.....but if you don't know anything about 21 how is useful ? What does the Sherrill book say for 21 ?

If what you have cast as your natal hexagram has nothing to do with I Ching divination how can you have come up with hexagram 21 and moreover why would you ask about what it means in the I Ching readings section ......


Surely if you are using an entirely different system, which you aren't, then that would have it's own meanings.


I read the book and it took me quite some time to calculate my natal hexagram.
As I understood from the book there are 10 different kinds of energies from Heaven and 12 different kind of energies from Earth. A specific combination of those two groups of energies is present at the moment of one's birth


Yes I read it and made the calculations 30 years ago and consider it a colossal waste of time. That's why I was saying if you want help from the I Ching don't bother with all these calculations just ask the questions you need. I wasn't saying I don't know what it is.

If you think it has a function then surely you'd find the meaning of 21 within that system you say isn't the I Ching. I don't know but if it isn't I Ching divination why would you be asking us what 21 means
 
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Liselle

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I often do daily casts, but take them quite lightly.

Ah. Sometimes I need the obvious pointed out to me :eek:.

I would never let a daily cast stop me leaving the house

Well...if I got 60.1

"Not going out of the door and the courtyard
Is without blame."
(Wilhelm)

I think I'd at least ask a follow-up to try to see if Yi meant it literally.

I mean, sometimes Yi does actually mean the literal thing it's saying, doesn't it? If I got that line as as daily reading, and ignored it, and ended up in the hospital...I mean, the only conclusion to draw is that Yi did warn me. If I was somehow "meant" to end up in the hospital, would Yi circumvent that so directly? (I realize this is a whole can of worms...if someone does a reading about killing someone, and somehow they were or were not "meant" to kill that person, what would Yi tell them, etc. etc. etc.)

I'm actually not trying to get that deep. But if staying at home when Yi gave you a daily reading which told you to stay at home would seem daft to you, then aren't you limiting the oracle?
 

Trojina

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If it was a day where I wanted to stay at home but felt I should go out, I'd likely be happy to get 60.1 as a good affirmation that my feeling to not go out was a sound one. However this would have nothing to do with warnings..but to do with inclination. If I had to go out I'd still go out of course since 60.1 need not be literal. 60.1 can mean you don't go beyond the familiar or whatever. If I was inclined to take daily answers as warnings of disaster I had no reason to expect I wouldn't do them. If I lived in a war torn dangerous place on occasion I might take it literally but in the way I currently use daily readings I just go about what I had planned to do, sometimes taking note of warnings not to overdo things and so on.

Well...if I got 60.1

"Not going out of the door and the courtyard
Is without blame." (Wilhelm)

I think I'd at least ask a follow-up to try to see if Yi meant it literally

Well then don't do daily casts. I don't think they'd suit you. No I certainly wouldn't do a follow up. I'd think about how I felt, what I wanted to do, more than anything. How could you do a follow up to find out if it was literal anyway ? As I say I'm not Yi dependent and nor should anyone be. You can feel if it's literal with your feelings and if you misinterpret then you misinterpret...

Daily readings for me are FUN...like daily horoscopes, and often an opportunity to learn about the I Ching. Did you see Moss Elk's example of 22.2 in the AHA section ? That is what daily readings are for IMO. Not for limiting your life by handing your destiny over to an oracle in a fearful or superstitious way



I mean, sometimes Yi does actually mean the literal thing it's saying, doesn't it? If I got that line as as daily reading, and ignored it, and ended up in the hospital...I mean, the only conclusion to draw is that Yi did warn me. If I was somehow "meant" to end up in the hospital, would Yi circumvent that so directly? (I realize this is a whole can of worms...if someone does a reading about killing someone, and somehow they were or were not "meant" to kill that person, what would Yi tell them, etc. etc. etc.)

Yes it sometimes is literal...but really it would be absurd not to go out one day when you wanted to because you thought 60.1 meant you'd go to hospital :confused: It could mean so many things. I don't think much about accidents and hospital but ordinary daily life. If I had the mind frame where I thought in those terms I wouldn't do daily readings since I'd be placing the oracle in a position in my life above and beyond my own will, intuition, common sense and wotnot.

So you're saying if I cast 60.1 on a day I had to work or meet a friend or do some errands then I'd need to consider not going out ??? If I started doing that I'd be limiting my life by handing my agency over to an imagined authority. Not the way to use Yi. If I had these things to do I would do them, possibly quietly, within my own sphere.


Apart from anything else in the overall picture of one's life some accidents may be helpful in some way...not bad. We don't feel that but we don't always see the whole picture. What if I went to hospital unexpectedly one day and learned a great deal about kindness or something. Yi might have given me 42.5 but I'd never figure in advance that would mean going to hospital.

I am definitely not using daily readings for predictions only but for things to be aware of in terms of what they mean for me. Today I cast 33.5 and I'm not doing a good job of it since I'm sitting here engaging in debate ! What is interesting is not to act in anticipation of the reading but just see how the day turns out in relation to the reading, sometimes slightly adjusting work loads or whatever. A 62uc day for me would be a signal not to over do things for example. I think doing daily readings is mainly for interest and fun....if you have your mind on car crashes don't do daily readings
 
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Liselle

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So you're saying if I cast 60.1 on a day I had to work or meet a friend or do some errands then I'd need to consider not going out ??? If I started doing that I'd be limiting my life by handing my agency over to an imagined authority. Not the way to use Yi. If I had these things to do I would do them, possibly quietly, within my own sphere.

I do see your larger point about the proper place of divination in life - it's a good one. But what you also seem to be saying is that you wouldn't even allow for the possibility that Yi might directly warn you about something. I think that is limiting the Oracle, which is usually something you remind people here not to do.

What if Yi really did want to deliver a message to stay at home, or some other very direct instruction? How could it say that, so that you would accept that message?

There is a difference between waking up every single morning and asking, "Is it safe for me to leave the house today?? Oh dear what will happen to me if I go out???" and asking an open-ended question.

If I got 60.1 on (for example) a workday, I might remind myself it could mean something light and more trivial, but I might also take note that 60.1 is one of not-terribly-many lines which could be very direct instruction, and that is the line Yi chose to give me. So I might follow up with "Stay home from work?" and see what Yi said, and go from there. If the follow-up seemed like I was on the wrong track, or if I couldn't make sense of it at all, I'd shrug and go to work. But if I really thought the follow-up was confirming "stay home," I don't think it should be ignored. What is the point of asking, if you'd purposely ignore the answer?

but really it would be absurd not to go out one day when you wanted to because you thought 60.1 meant you'd go to hospital It could mean so many things.

Of course - I don't think 60.1 would always mean I'd end up in the hospital, or any other single thing, or even necessarily anything bad.

Apart from anything else in the overall picture of one's life some accidents may be helpful in some way...not bad. We don't feel that but we don't always see the whole picture.

Well, yes, but that's not what we're talking about.

I mean, now I'm nitpicking about a theoretical discussion, which I'm pretty sure you've said you don't like. It's just that you seem to be saying you wouldn't even consider these sorts of possibilities for readings, and that doesn't make sense to me. If the I Ching can say anything at all, then warnings and such are part of "anything," aren't they?
 

Trojina

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It's up to you how you use the I Ching and what place it has in your life and your relation to it and all that.

I've been consulting for 38 years and never perceived the oracle to be ordering me "DO NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE, WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE" where I intended to leave the house. Even where I left the house and met misfortune for various reasons it wouldn't have connected in any way for me with Yi telling me not to go out since one cannot avoid life outside and will make errors of judgement at times anyway. Perhaps I've been very lucky as Yi has never issued dire warnings to me about leaving the house because there never has been a dire reason not to leave the house in my entire life. A few mishaps, accidents,,,,,etc etc and so on but that's life.

I dunno...I just do daily readings how I want to. I haven't said 60.1 can't mean 'don't go out' if that is what you think it means for you at some point, I just said I wouldn't not go out if I had it as a daily cast and neither would I ask again. In fact I don't think any answer from Yi would stop me leaving the house unless I had consulted specifically about how dangerous something might be. Sometimes going out when ill hasn't been a good idea and maybe Yi might reinforces a common sense idea of rest but not going out because one thinks there will be some unknown danger...? No I've never done that and hope I never will


What if Yi really did want to deliver a message to stay at home, or some other very direct instruction? How could it say that, so that you would accept that message?

The idea of Yi wanting to deliver a message to someone to stay at home is just very alien to me for all kinds of philosophical reasons I don't much want to go into. Maybe Yi warns you not to go out, I don't know, but you're right I'm not interested in discussing it further

Well, yes, but that's not what we're talking about.

It is or rather it was precisely what we were talking about....but here I think your idea of what Yi is and mine are so different in some respects we'd be here all night typing posts and get nowhere. So I'm off and doing 33.5....(apart from anything else we are entirely off topic)
 
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Liselle

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For the record, no, I haven't ever gotten 60.1 where I thought it was directly telling me not to leave the house. The 60.1 thing was a hypothetical example to address a broader point.
 

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