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life changing decision and 44

spiralcloud

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Hi all,

I have been living in England for 16 years and after spending a year and a half back at the country I am originally from I returned to London certain that here is HOME. The problem is my daughter is still in the other country and now that she is due to come back home and stay with me I have been having second thoughts.
I was looking at some pictures of her back there with my family and lots of nature around and then it crossed my mind that perhaps that's where we should be. It is a very difficult decision for me to make because England is where my heart is, my chosen home, the values and culture I believe and appreciate; back where my family lives there are only them and nature, I don't agree with how people think or how they do things and hence my decision to return to England in the first place... but then, it's family so I do not really know what to think.
So I asked the Yi what the outcome would be if I went back and got 56.2.5 > 44
And then asked what the outcome would be if I stayed and got 44.6 > 28
Have I become so 'proud and distant'' 'but since active duties no longer hold' me 'to the world, this does not greatly matter.' that I 'know how to bear the dislike of the masses with composure.'??? (hahaha that's actually very me!...)
Also intrigued by 44 in both answers.
Is the Yi telling me it would be better to leave my beloved England?
Oh my... this is the hardest decision ever...

As always I will be very grateful for your insights.

Namaste!
:bows:
 

Trojina

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44.6 says to me you may upset some people by going your way but you need not let that bother you. 'Upset' is perhaps too strong a word, there is often the feeling of distance and aloofness or in 44.6 where the other may think 'humph she'd rather be there than here' and be a bit huffy but this isn't a fault on your part. 44 can refer to quite intrusive elements that come into your life to seemingly make you follow some direction other than your own. At line 6 i think one is saying 'hey I am going my own way like it or not' and Yi doesn't pronounce that as wrong.

56.2.5>44 Well 44, the background is the same as the other question. A new influence comes in and makes you reconsider your path or take a diversion ( I see it this diverting htought /influence you have that you should go back to your own country)..Often it can occur around others presenting something that could potentially derail us. In 44 we are advised not to 'marry' this influence, which means not to incorporate it as a permanent way of life. The 56, well I think that describes you being here, being in travelling mode. But again 56 doesn't describe 'home' or a permanent place. Although you say you feel at home this answer shows still some sense of being a 'foreigner'...but a happy foreigner with a good supportive environment around them which could be work or connections, just general feeling of being in quite a secure place even though feeling 'foreign'. 56.5 hmmmm I have to say I am not clear on the meaning of this line but Hilarys book says its somewhere you get the chance to do important work, to gain recognition, to fulfill some kind of 'mandate'.


Generally I have to say i feel your answers favour you staying here in UK. Not sure about forever though due to that 56. But perhaps the 56 is quite literal, you are from another country, you may always have a certain sense of being 'foreign', a traveller, but the lines certainly show you prospering as such
 
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spiralcloud

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Hi Trojan,

What you said about 44 fits perfectly since the only reason I am actually considering going back to Brazil is because I think that deep down that's what my family would like me to do. And at the end of the day it is a tricky thing to decide, between cultural values and family. I would like my daughter to have both. Over here is just the two of us, and a society I truly admire where people take responsibility for being part of it, respect others, are accountable for their actions and have a critical view about things. Over there, I have my family, a slight better weather :) and that's it. If I could wipe out all the other people that would be around us then it would be paradise!:rofl: But I think I would like her to be English and not Brazilian, no, I know so.

56 really confused me because it came as an answer about me going back to Brazil, and what you said about it kind of reinforced my doubts. You see, before going to Brazil I had a feeling of being a foreigner here, but then I went back and felt more of a foreigner there than I felt here, the first few months were specially hard I did not fit in at all. So when I came back home I came HOME and even if I know I will always be a foreigner here, I do not FEEL like one. Which then made me think of this answer being me as a happy foreigner in Brazil (since that's how I feel when I am there - not really happy but a foreigner!), even what you said about having a good supportive environment fits.

So the Yi could be telling me that maybe going to Brazil wouldn't be so bad, but is it also telling that staying is ok too? Not very helpful...:mad:
Any idea?

If anyone else could shed some light too I would be very grateful.

Namaste!
:bows:
 

Trojina

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Hi Trojan,



So the Yi could be telling me that maybe going to Brazil wouldn't be so bad, but is it also telling that staying is ok too? Not very helpful...:mad:
Any idea?

If anyone else could shed some light too I would be very grateful.

Namaste!
:bows:
I'm confused now :D I think its telling you staying in UK doing your own thing is better. Obviously that didn't come accross in my post.


And anyway if you want to stay in UK then thats your answer. Why do something you don't want to without a strong reason. If the reason were strong enough you'd have no doubts even if you wanted to stay.
 

mythili

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So I asked the Yi what the outcome would be if I went back and got 56.2.5 > 44
I think this is not a really direct answer regarding "outcome" if you went back. I think this is saying instead, you can visit (Brazil) (and you'll be welcomed) but dont make it a permanent home.
 

mythili

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Here's what Lise has to say about 44.6, which gives added support to what Trojan said. See if this resonates with you:

Above 9: The heir's horn. Distress. Without fault.
Growing up – or becoming mature - is not only about getting bigger and wiser. It also means to take risks, to do silly or stupid things, to fall and get up again, to feel how it is to get bruised. A fearful or timid child will not become a good king, he will have too little experience. So if the king keeps his heir too safe, he is not acting in his own or his son’s interest.
(Changes to hex.28).

H28 is also about standing on your own, and its suggesting it wont be an easy situation, probably because you wont have nearby family support, as you mentioned. But its not wrong for you to do this.

Here's the link to Lise's site:
http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/hex_33-48/hex_e_44.htm

Hope it helps. Its a tough decision you are facing.
 

mythili

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Here, 44 may also telling you that you are a strong and capable woman. Live and raise your child in the UK, and visit Brazil whenever you need and want that added family support.
 

spiralcloud

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I'm confused now :D I think its telling you staying in UK doing your own thing is better. Obviously that didn't come accross in my post.
It did, but then I took what you said and applied to my feelings of being a foreigner in Brazil and not here

56 really confused me because it came as an answer about me going back to Brazil, and what you said about it kind of reinforced my doubts. You see, before going to Brazil I had a feeling of being a foreigner here, but then I went back and felt more of a foreigner there than I felt here, the first few months were specially hard I did not fit in at all. So when I came back home I came HOME and even if I know I will always be a foreigner here, I do not FEEL like one. Which then made me think of this answer being me as a happy foreigner in Brazil (since that's how I feel when I am there - not really happy but a foreigner!), even what you said about having a good supportive environment fits.
which then changes the answer...

And anyway if you want to stay in UK then thats your answer. Why do something you don't want to without a strong reason. If the reason were strong enough you'd have no doubts even if you wanted to stay.
:confused: the reason is strong enough to give me doubts, if it was strong enough for a certainty then yes you are right to say I would know what to do and wouldn't need to ask the Yi...:confused::rofl:

Am I just making things more confusing??? :mischief:
 

Trojina

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It did, but then I took what you said and applied to my feelings of being a foreigner in Brazil and not here



which then changes the answer...


:confused: the reason is strong enough to give me doubts, if it was strong enough for a certainty then yes you are right to say I would know what to do and wouldn't need to ask the Yi...:confused::rofl:

Am I just making things more confusing??? :mischief:
well it is always a mistake to take what i said and apply it :rofl:

Yes i understand what you mean now but i think i made the mistake of taking 56.2.5 as answer to 'what if i stay in UK'. I don't know why i did that...probably because I'm seeing you as a traveller foreigner in UK literally even if you don't feel that way. I guess i feel the 56 quite literal


But you know what ? I am getting muddled up here :duh: not your fault.


Thank goodness Mythili arrived
 

tiziano

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Well first of all (even if this is probably of no use for you), I'd say this is one of those astonishing cases of symmetry in two readings about two options for the same choice. It happens so often that even the most sceptical mind has to say "oh my, this thing really works"! :)
I'm saying this because, despite it may be overlooked, the symmetry is here perfect between Hex 44 and Hex 28, which in one case is hidden into Hex 56 as its nuclear.
I generally agree with what has been concluded until here, so I won't repeat.
Hex 44 should represent you in London, Hex 56(<28) you in Brasil. Each scene is once the foreground, once the background of the picture, depending on the considered choice.
I'm not really adding anything to what Trojan and Mythili have already said, but my consideration should help you integrate the two readings. Especially considering this:
H28 is also about standing on your own, and its suggesting it wont be an easy situation, probably because you wont have nearby family support, as you mentioned. But its not wrong for you to do this.
and comparing this with the opposite situation, where Hex 28 is still working "behind the scenes" in Hex 56: you won't avoid its sense of heaviness and loneliness by going back to Brazil, it would just be "hidden" into your "feeling of being a foreigner".

However I have to say it's still a tough choice, the more because the moving lines are more auspicious there, in Brasil. Beyond the rest of your family, I'd ask you something about your daughter: how old is she? (You have been in London for 16 years, so I can suppose she is at least that age.) Above all, what does she really want? because hex 44 could well be a young daughter growing and it may become heavy (28) for both of you if she doesn't feel at home in London... you may be tempted to proceed with your horns, but this could bear more "blame" than it is supposed to, especially if we look at the fan yao, 28.6...
 

spiralcloud

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But you know what ? I am getting muddled up here :duh:
happy I'm not the only one!!!:rofl:

this 56.2.5 is really doing my head in.... it talks about travelling (UK to Brazil), of being a foreigner :)confused: we already discussed that...) but it also mentions finding a home wherever you are, doesn't it? (especially 56.2, see Lise's)

for 56.5 Richmond says: 'He shoots a pheasant,
loses an arrow.
The end brings praise and office.
He gains nourishment (the pheasant) and loses direction (the arrow). His direction was wandering, and exchanging this for nourishment in his present situation is the end of wandering and creates an established presence (office) and recognition (praise).'

putting together what trojan said, with my twist (even if she said I shouldn't apply what she says! :rofl:) and these interpretations I can only see it as being a good thing going back to Brazil, but at the same time as you both said apparently it is good for me to stay, a bit tough but good. And I know you both said that you think 56 is telling me that Brazil is not permanent, that is a place to visit and all but for some reason the more I think and read the more I see what I just explained :brickwall: :mad: very annoying....

So maybe I should ask another question to try to clarify the matter once and for all. I cannot see clearly at all and it is driving me crazy............ to go or not to go...

Thanks for your your patience, time and insights.

and if you think of a good question to help me put an end to my misery please let me know!

namaste!
:bows:
 
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tiziano

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Have you seen my post? I was asking you something. (if this can be of help)
 

mythili

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The thing is, in neither of these hexagrams, 56>44 and 44>28, is there a feeling of coming "home". The 56.2,5 reading is a "softer" one than the 44.6 reading, yet, and I could be wrong about this, I have not known 56.5 to be a coming-home-permanently kind of thing, more like being accepted, but still as an outsider, or someone outside the immediate family. Theres still a transient feel to it. Perhaps someone else has a different experience with this line.

You say you feel really at home in the UK, so perhaps the 44.6 reading does speak about what your daughter needs, which is that she might be better off in the UK, but is it possible that you may have to go against your family's wishes to bring her to the UK to live with you?
 

spiralcloud

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Have you seen my post? I was asking you something. (if this can be of help)
Sorry Tiziano I hadn't seen your post...

My daughter is 9, and one of the main reasons why I am considering the option of going back is because she is very happy there... But she was born here and was very happy here too and children are very resilient, but I am very apprehensive of taking so much away from her. She lives in a country house with lots of animals (she loves them... so much so that she got goats as birthday presents!!!) and on the weekends she goes to the beach where my parents live, so she's surrounded by beautiful things, nature and a loving family. Here she will have me (who probably loves her more than everybody else put together but I am only one) and a flat... oh, and a dog, I promised her that we would get one as soon as she comes.

On the other hand over there she will be influenced by everything that I dislike in society and here she will have better examples to follow (in general, I know well enough that it is not a bed of roses here and that Brazil is not pure evil).

But you see what makes it harder to decide is, well, bottom line: ME. I am happy here.... I love this place, even the weather... If you've ever been to England you might understand what I will say, but to find someone who standing at a train station platform on a rainy morning can look at all this and think how grateful she is for being at that very place on that very rainy morning, it is very rare, people get grumpy, I get happy. See?

So over there she will have lovely family, lovely weather, lovely nature, very bad education and to a certain extend an unhappy mum. Over here a lovely mum, lovely weather :rofl:, occasional nature, considerably better education and a very happy mum.

I don't know, I think I will stop thinking about it for a day or two...:brickwall:

I will report back with a fresh mind. Hope to hear more of your insights then!

Grazie tante!

Tatiana
 

spiralcloud

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I have not known 56.5 to be a coming-home-permanently kind of thing, more like being accepted, but still as an outsider, or someone outside the immediate family. Theres still a transient feel to it.
mythili this is exactly how I would feel if I were to go back to Brazil, I would go not feeling at home and definitely not as a permanent thing.

You say you feel really at home in the UK, so perhaps the 44.6 reading does speak about what your daughter needs, which is that she might be better off in the UK, but is it possible that you may have to go against your family's wishes to bring her to the UK to live with you?
It's not like they are against her coming to the UK but I think ultimately they would prefer that we lived close to them, so they support my decision but deep down I know that if they could choose they would have us there.
It is funny that you see 44.6 as perhaps what she needs I will look at it from that perspective and see what I find, because that's what I am trying to balance out what she needs V what makes me happy. Maybe that's the way out.
Thank you.

As I mentioned on my other post I will have a day or two to not actively think about all of this and just let the thoughts sink in a bit and I shall report back with my findings.
:bows:

Tatiana
 

Trojina

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I think because the answers are so connected it helps to see them together not seperate. I think now why i took 56>44 as about you being here in UK was because the 44 remained a constant feature indicating the idea you should go back to Brazil was a sort of intrusion in your life....oh I shan't confuse you any further since I even confused myself. :rofl:

I think perhaps the next question needs to be about what is best for your daughter. You could start with a really open question...like 'what is my best action for my daughter' or 'where will my daughter be best nurtured and happy' . Sometimes open questions give very easy to undertsand answers, easier than 'what if'.

I personally tend to find Yi doesn't much deal in hypotheticals, I find it cuts straight to the actualities.


Did someone ask you what your daughter wants ? Thats really crucial isn't it ? NIne is no longer a little kid, especially for girls. I don't think 9 year olds just easily forget connections and bonds already made, though it depends upon the individual child I suppose. What does she say what she wants ? Thats what you need to hear isn't it ?


In general I'd think a child would be happiest with its mother...or in later life would wonder 'why did my mother leave me ? wasn't I the most important thing to her ?' but in your case sounds like she has an extended family and you when you visit and is quite happy


Another point though is although she likes nature etc now, it won't be long till puberty and teenage years. Is Brazil the best place for her in her teenage years do you think ?

I admit I know nothing about life in Brazil so don't know....but I'm imagining life has more opportunites here in UK for young girls ?
 
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spiralcloud

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Another point though is although she likes nature etc now, it won't be long till puberty and teenage years. Is Brazil the best place for her in her teenage years do you think ?
Thanks for bringing my grey hairs into the spotlight! :rofl: the few I have and the many more that are soon to come!!!!!
oh, trojan I think now you hit the spot! because as soon as I read your question I knew the answer!!!!!!!!:bows:

In general I'd think a child would be happiest with its mother...or in later life would wonder 'why did my mother leave me ? wasn't I the most important thing to her ?' but in your case sounds like she has an extended family and you when you visit and is quite happy
I wouldn't dream in letting this situation carry on, we haven't seen each other in over a year now and all I want is to be with her, I am her mum and I should be the one looking after her. I only left her behind because I really had to, when I came back to England I did not have a job here, etc, so could not put her through god knows what... but now either she comes or I go, no more time apart!

I might ask the Yi tonight about what she needs just to check if it matches my answer to your question. I really want to do what's right. I will let you know the outcome.

Thank you sooooooo much once again!

Tatiana
 

Trojina

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Thanks for bringing my grey hairs into the spotlight! :rofl: the few I have and the many more that are soon to come!!!!!
oh, trojan I think now you hit the spot! because as soon as I read your question I knew the answer!!!!!!!!:bows:
its likley any spots I hit are purely accidental :D but I'm glad you know the answer ! Hope you'll share later


I wouldn't dream in letting this situation carry on, we haven't seen each other in over a year now and all I want is to be with her, I am her mum and I should be the one looking after her. I only left her behind because I really had to, when I came back to England I did not have a job here, etc, so could not put her through god knows what... but now either she comes or I go, no more time apart!
Thats lovely :)


I might ask the Yi tonight about what she needs just to check if it matches my answer to your question. I really want to do what's right. I will let you know the outcome.

Thank you sooooooo much once again!

Tatiana

Thankyou for sharing :bows: We all learn so much more when people engage with their own reading as you have
 

mythili

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Here's an interpretation from Hilary's book for 56.2 and 56.5 (Hilary, sorry that I havent asked your permission to quote it here, but thought it important enough to resolve what seems to be a real dilemma).
Will quote only for the two lines here: 56.2 - "You've come to a safe resting place, but not arrived home. Like the traveller who keeps his valuables safely on his person, your most precious assets are still those you carry with you, which do not depend on the circumstances or responses you meet in these foreign places. You stay loyal to your own ongoing journey, find good help and support, and continue steadily on your way."
56.5: "If the traveller can demonstrate his skill and take a gift to the local lord, he will gain recognition and employment. Having a "mandate" could be as sublime as a spiritual calling, or as mundane as a job, but it does mean you have useful work to do. This is the time to be as direct as an arrow's flight: see what is needed that you can do, and be single-minded in doing it. This is how you will find security: you are at home where you can be of service."

-Quote from "IChing. Walking your path, creating your future". By Hilary Barrett. c2010.

Hilary's 56.5 does resonate with Nigel Richmond's.

So now, which is the foreign land to you, Brazil or the UK? Where can you be of service - is your job in the UK a steady one, to which you are committed? For you is the "mandate" the spiritual one, or the income/job?

More for the mix, but almost sounds like you have to resolve where your own "loyalties" lie. 56.2 could be Brazil and 56.5 the UK. Or they could both be Brazil, with a gradually changing situation.

Didnt mean to add more confusion, but if these readings dont do the trick, Trojan's suggestion of asking again is a great one, I think. You might ask Yi for its opinion of your decision to settle with your daughter in the UK - I find i get clarification often when asking for Yi's opinion of a decision, or action of mine.

Good luck with this, and I wont add anymore to the mix, so that you can come to a quiet and personal resolution.
 

spiralcloud

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oh my.......... I just asked what I should do to do the best possible for my daughter and guess????
HEXAGRAM 44!!!!! unchanging :brickwall:
:rofl:
 

spiralcloud

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Hi all,

I haven't had the time to process all these 44s. I'll get back to you tomorrow.
:bows:
 

tiziano

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(...) because hex 44 could well be a young daughter growing and it may become heavy (28) for both of you if she doesn't feel at home in London... you may be tempted to proceed with your horns, but this could bear more "blame" than it is supposed to, especially if we look at the fan yao, 28.6...
spiralcloud said:
oh my.......... I just asked what I should do to do the best possible for my daughter and guess????
HEXAGRAM 44!!!!! unchanging
44 is to yin what 24 is to yang. While yang needs yin to grow, but mainly in terms of space and matter, yin needs from yang strength, protection and to be recognised for what it is.
Maybe a tank seems to you the better place for rising a fish, but is it really the best for it? Is it a protective place or a prison? If it were a prison, it wouldn't be fit for a guest...
Your daughter is a gift from heaven and deserves the best willow as her wrapping. She's a thing of beauty still contained, that wants to grow up to be able to fully show.
She is old enough to have ideas about what she wants to do, where she wants to live, with whom she wants to stay. You may have your ideas about society, but are they really fit for her? (note: I'm not saying I'm pro Brazil, I'm just trying to make you weigh out things more evenly).
First thing and most important, you have to talk. Talk and talk again. But you shouldn't "talk to her", you should primarily let her talk and listen. With no preconceptions of yours about society or "what's best for an adolescent" or "what I want for her" things. If you don't empty your mind before talking, it may even be worse... you could involuntarily try to impose your views on her, you won't really be listening to her heart, to her inner needs. She is yin and that yin is buried under five yangs, so how hard to be seen! yet, the yang has the power (and the duty) to come to meet that yin, to acknowledge it, to welcome it and its needs.
Don't proceed with your horns. It may not be a mistake, but it could become really hard to bear for a long time. This is a risk, shown by the fact that you received that line (44.6). A happy mother living with an unhappy daughter isn't a happy mother anymore.
You are a wanderer by nature. Your signature also shows that, and this resonates with your 56.
Be careful: I'm not telling you have to renounce to yourself, it would be just as bad. For her, too: a happy daughter with an unhappy mother isn't happy anymore and would just flee.
I think your decision is made harder by the distance you risk to interpose between you with your personal projections and biases. Your hearts need to communicate from the inside, then everything will be clearer and easier. Maybe an unseen compromise will then suddenly show ...
 

spiralcloud

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44 is to yin what 24 is to yang. While yang needs yin to grow, but mainly in terms of space and matter, yin needs from yang strength, protection and to be recognised for what it is.
Maybe a tank seems to you the better place for rising a fish, but is it really the best for it? Is it a protective place or a prison? If it were a prison, it wouldn't be fit for a guest...
Your daughter is a gift from heaven and deserves the best willow as her wrapping. She's a thing of beauty still contained, that wants to grow up to be able to fully show.
She is old enough to have ideas about what she wants to do, where she wants to live, with whom she wants to stay. You may have your ideas about society, but are they really fit for her? (note: I'm not saying I'm pro Brazil, I'm just trying to make you weigh out things more evenly).
First thing and most important, you have to talk. Talk and talk again. But you shouldn't "talk to her", you should primarily let her talk and listen. With no preconceptions of yours about society or "what's best for an adolescent" or "what I want for her" things. If you don't empty your mind before talking, it may even be worse... you could involuntarily try to impose your views on her, you won't really be listening to her heart, to her inner needs. She is yin and that yin is buried under five yangs, so how hard to be seen! yet, the yang has the power (and the duty) to come to meet that yin, to acknowledge it, to welcome it and its needs.
Don't proceed with your horns. It may not be a mistake, but it could become really hard to bear for a long time. This is a risk, shown by the fact that you received that line (44.6). A happy mother living with an unhappy daughter isn't a happy mother anymore.
You are a wanderer by nature. Your signature also shows that, and this resonates with your 56.
Be careful: I'm not telling you have to renounce to yourself, it would be just as bad. For her, too: a happy daughter with an unhappy mother isn't happy anymore and would just flee.
I think your decision is made harder by the distance you risk to interpose between you with your personal projections and biases. Your hearts need to communicate from the inside, then everything will be clearer and easier. Maybe an unseen compromise will then suddenly show ...
Tiziano I am deeply grateful and humbled by your words. It touched my heart.
Thank you
:bows:
 

spiralcloud

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Just to let you all lovely lot know I will talk to my daughter on Wednesday.
I will keep you informed.
Thanks so much for all your help, it meant a lot.
:bows:
 

spiralcloud

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Hi everyone,

Just a quick update, I still couldn't talk to my daughter, so we'll all have to wait until Friday I think... (she is on holidays:cool:)
But don't worry I'll keep you posted.

:bows:

Tatiana
 

ginnie

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So I asked the Yi what the outcome would be if I went back and got 56.2.5 > 44
I think it's saying to go back there from time to time; that is, go as a traveler. Or if you do go back there, you will feel like a stranger, because, if the truth be told, you now feel more at home in the UK.

And then asked what the outcome would be if I stayed and got 44.6 > 28
If you say in the UK you will successfully rebuff some who seek power over you, and there will be no blame. As you are asking this question you are somewhat over-wrought, which is the context, the 28. But once you realize that you feel at home best in the UK, things will relax. :)
 

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