Line 4 of hexagram 33

[etiram]

Dear all:

I have a friend that has gone through a really tough time at work. My friend’s supervisors have treated her very unfairly (I do not want to go into a lot of detail). These supervisors are very successful people. I am very sad for this friend, and I feel angry at the injustice. I asked the Yi the following question,
Why these supervisors that have behaved so badly with my friend, and I believe they have done the same with other people, are so successful? And I received hexagram 33, with changing line 4. Can you help me interpret this answer? Are these supervisors the inferior people referred in the line? And how the relating hexagram (53) can relate to the question.


Thanks to all of you for your help,

ET

 

[cassius_clay]

In a nutshell the answer is probably pointing to how you/your friend should react to that situation. Being at peace and not emotional about the situation. A gradual planned out retreat. So 53 is is saying the retreat should be gradual. Either a retreat like not paying attention to what they do or say. Maybe even leaving the job. If its leaving the job. They shouldnt leave the job immediately. They should plan it out and make sure things are in order. The 4th line is saying that the person who will lose in the retreat is the immature person. Dont indulge in negative emotions. That's all for now. Peace.

 

[rosada]

Do I understand your question? You are asking why these people who have treated others so badly have been so successful? 33.4 says it is because those they abuse put up with it, let them get away with it. Those who feel abused should withdraw, but since they do not, the abusers are allowed to continue on and since if no one stops them, they will 53. "Gradually Progress" amassing wealth. In other words, it's not God rewarding them, it is the natural consequence of nobody stopping them. Perhaps a more helpful question would be why do people allow themselves to be abused?

 

[etiram]

cassius clay:

Thanks for your interpretation, it does make a lot of sense.

rosada:

Thanks for your help. What I meant by successful was that these people are successful in their careers, and are in high power positions, not that they are successful in treating people badly. Actually, my friend spoke up about her problem to other supervisor. However, the system is such that it is very difficult to take action against these people. So it is not that she let herself be abused, it is more like she is powerless.

Thanks a lot,

ET

 

[dobro p]

What cassius clay said, yes.

 

[jesed]

Just in case the comment could be useful

In the way I see this, the answer is not talking about etiram's friend, neither about the supervisor. Is teaching an old knowledgment TO etiram.

1.- This question is a macrocosmical question. "Why evil people has success?" Is an old question, actually (you can find it in the Bible several times, with diferent aproximation of answers; you can find it in Popol Vuh; you can find it in Mahabarata...and so on). So the answer should be understand in that level.

2.- 33 shows that it is a fact of reality that evil forces has a time for grew; to have influence. That is a fact. One need to accept this. Historically had been probed several times. Related to Yi Jing' history, this same question (why evil people has success; why Heaven allow this) was asked when fang-shi movement achieve influence at the Court and kill traditionalism scholars and sages. The answer to that situation was Retirement: the keepers of traditional teachings go and hide to preserve the wisdom (and we are starting to face a similar situation, nowadays).

3.- The objective cause of 33 is 64. A time for desorder, after a long time of evolution, the end of a cycle and the preparation for a new one. But the objective effect of 33 is also 64 (there are few cases when the objective cause and the objective effect is the same hexagram). 64 is linked, in macrocosmical analysis, to Karmatic issues. So, the fact that evil people can achieve success in some ages is part of the Karma Law and part of evolution of Humanity (this is hard to accept, but needed to accept)

4.- The Judgement advices us about this old question from humanity: a) Don't believe that evil achieving success is for ever; this success is for some time only, it is not a definitive situation; b) Don't fight evil when it is not time to fight evil; c) only free of emotional attachment one can face this kind of situations, if you are emotional attached (and the question itself shows some level of emotional attachment) you cann't face this situations

5.- The image points the inner actitude to deal with this question, and this fact: yes, evil people can achieve success.

6.- Line 4: No matter how it seems in the microcosmical realm, evil people atract ruin to their karma, and noble people atract blessings for their karma. One must not forget this when facing microcosmical manifestation of evil success. 33.4 has it's cause in 54.4: if one acts propperly, even if it could be interpreted as a lost, finally achieve real success; 33.4 has it's effect in 53.4, when is time for evil influence, the best thing to do is find a secure place to let this time pass (and this time will pass) until the time for Noble people returns.

7.- 53 as tendential invites us to follw the right, fair and gradual Path, no matter if this can be seen as "slow" development related to evil people's development.

Best wishes

 

[rosada]

I'm feeling misunderstood, although it's probably not so important. Still, for the record, I do understand your question, ET. You were asking why these people are successful in their careers. I was trying to derive an answer with what the I Ching is saying in line

33.4,
"Voluntary retreat brings good fortune to the superior man and downfall to the inferior man."

and it was a bit of a stretch. Let me restate my thought process....
First, this answer can certainly be seen as advice that your friend leave this job, as Cassius noted. I'm just saying that it can also be interpreted as a reason why unethical people in general can be successful. You have to sort of twist your thinking to reach my conclusion, but I'm getting from this line that if ethical people withdraw from working with - shoring up, supporting - unethical people, then the unethical people will fall down. I am suggesting this line is pointing out the reverse is also true, that if ethical people do continue to work for - support - unethical people, they, the unethical people will move along and have success. It brings to mind the expression, "All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to remain silent." So if 33.4 is the answer to your question, "Why do evil people succeed?" It is because people of goodwill go along with them and do not withdraw their support. I make a point of restating my interpretation because I think it is important to note that the I Ching is - I believe - saying more here than just Karma will reward the good and derail the bad - but rather that we are NOT to just go floating along until that time. Rather, as people of goodwill we must do something. Even if we are so powerless that all we can do is Retreat, that is a most powerful responce - one which will eventually topple evil.

 

[jesed]

Hi Rosada

Rather, as people of goodwill we must do something.

If "Do something" is like "fight against evil" (that was the sense of the prhase you quoted, about evil and goodwill- people's silence, in the context of nazism arise), that is the opposite to 33.

Best wishes

 

[rosada]

I'm not sure we have a real issue here, it may just be semantics. But let me see if I understand your position correctly. You are saying that 33.4 means that in the ebb and flow of time it may appear for awhile that evil prospers, and that during the hard times a person of good will should find a safe haven and wait until good times return. Correct? Whereas I am saying that 33.4 in answer to the question, "Why do evil people prosper?" that it is because people of good will do not withdraw their support. So I see 33.4 as advising more than simply finding a safe haven. I am interpreting 33.4 as saying that one should withdraw support from the evil doers. Thus, while one might find a safe haven working for an unethical boss, say in an office in the backroom where you never bump into the guy, a superior man would "do" something more - that "doing" being to refuse to do anything at all, to withdraw all support and Retreat from the job altogether.

 

[jesed]

Hi Rosada
I think i desagree with you in 2 points (not only in semantic)

1.- You are assuming that a) evil-people's influence is arising because good-will people support them (even with silence); and b) good-will people must do something to abort this evil-people influence.

In my point of view, some times this is correct, but other times it is not. Some times evil people doesn't get support (not even with silence) and even so, their influence arise. In this case, if you say to good-will people: you are supporting evil, you are "revictimizing" the victims (something like the case when, facing a rape, one acuses the woman because she provocate the raper).

In the same way, some times one need to fight against evil, but other times one need to retreat from evil, some times one need to allow evil sorround and hit oneself...

2.- The basis of your interpretation is only (or at least mainly) the changing line.
For me, the hexagram as a whole is the main answer, and the changing lines are particular advices to the subject within that situation.
If one see the answer in this way, 33 (as a whole hexagram) points that evil influence arises as an objective-cosmical fact. And then the changing line is just a particular advice for the subject within that objective situation.
So, the cause of success of evil people is not in the changing line (good-will people are supporting evil people), but in the hex as a whole (there are times when evil influences arises as a cosmical fact)

Best wishes

 

[rosada]

Ah! So one might say that in the I Ching's view of life there are simply those "times when hostle forces are favored." (Wilhelm, 33. Judgement)
I think the entangling folly here has been the attempt to answer two questions with one toss. Perhaps 33 answers the original question, "Why have the supervisors who have treated people so badly, been able to be so successful?" (Because there simply are times when hostle forces are favored) And then 33.4 answers the unspoken question, what is the right course for the friend? (Voluntary retreat.)

Thanks for talking me through this,
Rosada