Long story, a divorce, maybe: 7.1.2 > 24

[Cuddly_Balrog]

Hello all,

My wife and I are getting a divorce. I don’t want one so there is a serious emotional impact associated with this, as expected.

We separated amicably with me hoping that it was a step in healing our relationship, but shortly afterward she sent me a text saying she wanted a divorce.

I did not respond I retained an attorney and we did not talk for 7 months. Then she called me, I nearly let it go to voicemail but I still love her so I answered just before it switched over.

She asked me to go with her to talk to her doctor. I responded with why? She said no one in her family could, or would, go and she was scared because her doctor told her she may have cancer. I said OK (now would be the time to mention her family are awful and part of what pushed her towards divorce).

Afterwards I told her I love her too much to just like her again. That means we are not friends, I am not part of her support structure anymore, by her choice. At this point all I want is a peaceful and quick resolution. I only came this time because no one should face that alone and it was <expletives deleted> that her family put her in that position.

She offered my keys back and I said she should keep them because that door is still open, just not for “a friend”.

The following weekend she stopped at my house unannounced at 9:00am to, arguably, discuss the divorce. Which we did. There was a lot of physical intimacy. All day, that night, and into the next morning. She said “we never had a problem in bed”.

She stopped by the next Saturday in the morning, the same thing except she did not stay the night. The same thing occurred for the next 6 weeks, one or two days a week. She said “companionship was never an issue in our relationship”. She also said I seemed very different. I explained that I had recently been through some life altering trauma. She said “me too”.

While there was a lot of cuddling and discussing our relationship during these visits, there is however little communication outside these times except to ask me if I like this or that hair cut or outfit which she would have the next time we met.

During this time the divorce has stalled. Our lawyers have requested a postponement in the proceedings and everything is waiting on her.

I have been using the IC as a barometer for our romantic relationship checking the current status after each parting. Most of the time I understand the advice I am given, usually it boils down to live in the moment, something I always have had trouble doing. These answers lead up to the 7.1.2 > 24 in the title.

I will start with the big one: “about my current romantic relationship with X” 22.1.3 > 23

Splitting apart is never what you want to see when you are hoping for a reconciliation but we are splitting apart so it could just be giving context for the answer of 22.1 and 22.3.

This seems to say don’t put on a false front be honest with your intentions (leave behind the carriage which is adornment and ease) you will be near adversity (because water is usually adversity and you are moist from its spray) and it will be alluring (like a waterfall is pretty, not safe to touch) but if you persevere you will be rewarded.

Interestingly the carriage shows up only once in 22 and 23. Line one in 22 and Line 6 in 23. So is the carriage being left behind in 22 (in this case) the one from 23?​

Could the reward in this case be the beginning of a new relationship if I don’t give in to complacency? Or will it be a peaceful closure if I don’t give in to the temptation of trying to reconcile?

So I ask: “about our relationship splitting apart (23)” 18.3.4 > 64

This is actually reassuring to an extent: it says the situation is not complete we have not crossed the great river (probably the one that is causing the spray referenced in 22.3).

It seems to say that the outcome depends on how she deals with her family. How she deals with her “father’s decay”. While writing this I am thinking that She needs to choose how to deal with her family, they are not my problem. The temptation in 22.3 may be to try to help, which would only make things worse.

So I ask: “about asking X if she wants to proceed with the divorce” 19.1 > 7

Pretty straight forward: Yes, ask her. It is good to be on the same page. This line’s Fan Yao (7.1) says that the army marching without sharing a goal brings misfortune, and comes into play here in a minute.

I ask: “about telling her I don’t want a divorce” 11.1.3 > 7

This one I don’t quite understand. Even looking through the forums I am not clear.

It seems to be saying that I am experiencing a time of plenty, but times of plenty are always balanced by times of scarcity. Enjoy the up be prepared for the down? The only secure peace is to prepare for war? The army suggests a power play, is it a struggle between me and her family? I am not sure if it is recommending taking this action.

Finally I asked: “about X still wanting a divorce” 7.1.2 > 24 - I am not sure about this at all.

Here, as promised, is 7.1 and that makes sense. It is important that we have the same goal.

What about 7.2: “In the midst of the army. Good fortune. No blame. The king bestows a triple decoration.” - I don’t know how to interpret this line.

What is the return (24) Am I returning alone? Is she returning? Is the desire to return to something merely being acknowledged as context for the answer.

I don’t know, any and all input welcome!

 

[Yana-Rose]

7.1 Wilhelm/Baynes: An army must set forth in proper order. If the order is not good, misfortune threatens.
7.2 Wilhelm/Baynes: In the midst of the army. Good fortune. No blame. The king bestows a triple decoration.
Hex 24 Wilhelm/Baynes (Image): Thunder within the earth: the image of The Turning Point. Thus the kings of antiquity closed the passes at the time of the solstice. Merchants and strangers did not go about, and the ruler did not travel through the provinces.

I would say that in your relationship both of you are keeping things for yourself. Not in sense that you are hiding something from each other but in sense that you do not communicate important things to each other. Nobody reads other minds. It is necessary to articulate your wishes and ideas about this relationship, your position, your feelings – everything must be well articulated and on very concrete level. You need openly communicate about problems between you – not about problems that arose like the manifestation of those primary problems (In the midst of the army I see as the entering the essence of things and there lies a good fortune). Maybe she wants that too but doesn’t know how to approach this communication as well so she goes around the bush (asks you about her haircut, calls you to be with her at doctors). Sometimes in close emotional relationships and especially in emotional situations we consider lot of things doesn’t need to be said because we unconsciously expect things to be implied - we expect our army to function without issued commands, but there is no such thing, army always needs articulated commands which is a way to set forth an army in proper order. So, when problems arise they can’t be solved without articulating your thoughts no matter how good you know each other and assume what the other person thinks or wants. Things between you could go in direction of returning but with lot of above mentioned open communication about the real problems between you.

 

[Cuddly_Balrog]

@Yana-Rose

Thank you for your insight. Communication has indeed been an ongoing struggle in our relationship.

I communicate too much and tended to overwhelm her with too much information. I had not, until recently, been afraid of openly discussing how I think and feel about things. Not in an aggressive or rude way or anything like that, just a train of consciousness. So a decision or action may be accompanied by a dialog of why I made that decision. My hope, and I probably expressed this poorly to her, was that she would interject when she disagreed or felt I was missing something.

She communicates too little. Out of fear of rejection, I believe. Probably because of how she interacted with her family growing up. I had always told her she needed to stand up for herself. If she disagreed with someone, even me, thank them for their input and do what you think is best. The people that love and support you can handle well intentioned disagreements.

So that makes sense in light of the rest of the reading.

That would seem to indicate that the 11.1.3 > 7 means the conversation about divorce will not go smoothly. Do you think that means it will end poorly? I fear pushing her away by over-communicating.

11.3 Wilhelm/Baynes: No plain not followed by a slope. No going not followed by a return. He who remains persevering in danger Is without blame. Do not complain about this truth; Enjoy the good fortune you still possess.​

Hex 24 Wilhelm/Baynes (Image): Thunder within the earth: the image of The Turning Point. Thus the kings of antiquity closed the passes at the time of the solstice. Merchants and strangers did not go about, and the ruler did not travel through the provinces.

Do you think this is referring to the actual solstice as a deadline for this discussion? It is only a month and a half away.

Thank you again for your input!

 

[Yana-Rose]

Do you think this is referring to the actual solstice as a deadline for this discussion? It is only a month and a half away.

I tend to interpret the aforementioned solstice as a metaphor for the point in your relationship. In this point you can’t be more distant. But there is the turning point (like in the real solstice) after which you get closer and closer. I think that this can’t be interpreted out of the context of lines you got 7.1.2. i.e. condition for this turning point is open two-way communication.

11.3 Wilhelm/Baynes: No plain not followed by a slope. No going not followed by a return. He who remains persevering in danger Is without blame. Do not complain about this truth; Enjoy the good fortune you still possess.

I would say that the meaning of this line is that there is no solution without trying. So you won’t know how this discussion will end, if you don’t try and according to this line this attempt is (still) well aspected.

 

[Cuddly_Balrog]

I would say that the meaning of this line is that there is no solution without trying. So you won’t know how this discussion will end, if you don’t try and according to this line this attempt is (still) well aspected.

@Yana-Rose That makes sense. I am afraid to do anything that she would feel pressed by.

She says she is happy with things being undefined, and I do not want her to feel pressured into making a decision she is not ready to make. I don’t want her to leave (obviously), I also do not want her to feel compelled to stay.

Are there any questions you would recommend I ask to gain more insight?

I asked: “when is the best time to discuss the divorce to tell her I don’t want one” and the answer was: 58 Joyous (Opening)

I translated this as a simple “you’ve got this, go get ‘em!” or maybe “when she is happy...”

THE JOYOUS. Success.
Perseverance is favorable.​

-Wilhelm​

Thank you again!

 

[Cuddly_Balrog]

We spent most of Saturday together (6-7 hours), enjoying the weather and talking. The closest we came to discussing the either our relationship or the divorce was when she brought up difficulties in her current living situation and about her hesitation in moving back in with her family because that would not be a better situation.

I did not try to solve the problem, I did not give my opinion on her family situation, although I did say she still had the key and we could make a space that was just her’s if she wanted. She said she appreciated the offer, but did not outright reject it.

At the end, she said she had a very good day.

It occurred to me one thing I did not ask was about waiting until she brings up the the divorce to discuss my wants and feelings about the matter. She may not in a place where she is comfortable discussing the divorce, or she may not have made up her mind.

It is also possible that I am using that as an excuse to delay the discussion further out of fear.

I asked: “about waiting until she brings up the current state of our divorce” the answer: 60uc

This seems pretty straight forward. Acknowledging this limitation is good BUT not if I let it persist too long. Which is true because if I let it persist too long the legal system itself will force the issue, and the choice will be taken from both of us.

LIMITATION. Success.​

Galling limitation must not be persevered in.

- Wilhelm​

Or, is this instead saying that the limitation of not discussing the matter has already become galling?

 

[moss elk]

Finally I asked: “about X still wanting a divorce” 7.1.2 > 24 - I am not sure about this at all.

Hi,
Were you thinking:
1-you wanted a picture of her intentions?
or
2-you wanted advice for you?

Line 1- Going by all the rules.
Line 2- Being in the center, making it happen.
24 returns home from the mission, campaign, hangs up the hat.

What do you think?

 

[Topher]

18.3.4 was the advice that told you to fix the mistakes of the past rather than doing nothing do something... (talk openly about the issue that lead to this, if it is too difficult then approach it in a subtle way, and if you are being judged perhaps keep the calm, if you are at fault assume the mistakes, but dont stay focused on the problem but rather the way to fix it)..

 

[Cuddly_Balrog]

@moss elk , thanks for your reply!

Generally asking about what other people are thinking or feeling isn’t really useful for me. I get caught up in a game of guessing who is being referenced at any given time.

When I ask questions like “about X still wanting a divorce” it’s more like asking a friend at a pub if that girl is into you. They can give you a different perspective, but not read minds.

(for future reference the answer is always yes, because either your friend is a bro, or they want to laugh at you. I’m looking at you Felix)

So my mindset would have been “an impression of her intentions.”

From that point of view:

Line 7.1 “going by all the rules”. - Following the formalities of the divorce. Proceeding with the divorce.

Which is what was trending until the medical issue (misfortune threatened) and she had second thoughts. - “the order is not good, misfortune threatens.”

Line 7.2 “Being in the center, making it happen.” - This is an interesting take on the line. Was this based upon any particular interpretation or is that an Elk original?

The question is “who, or what, is in the center of making it happen”?

All of the other readings seem to indicate a need for communication, and indicated that communication at the right time is favorable. Maybe it is the communication that is at the center.

Hex 24: “returns home from the mission, campaign, hangs up the hat.” - I like this interpretation of 24 in this context. It works regardless of the interpretation.

I still can’t shake the feeling that the solstice is in play here. We will know more in a couple of weeks as far as that goes. I’m not saying wait until then to bring things up, just a feeling I can’t put off.

Regardless if it was advice for me, or a commentary about her intention, it hangs on if the order, and our communication, is good.

At least it did not scream “The woman is too strong. Do not wed” or “Splitting Apart” (although 23 did come later)

 

[Cuddly_Balrog]

@Topher thanks for responding!

The reason, and only reason, I thought her family is because of ongoing issues she has had with them. The references to the “Father’s illness” drew my mind to her family. It was something we talked about a lot during our drive.

Although that does not mean it could not have been referring to my own “illness” that lead to issues in our relationship. I had not considered that.

I had considered that I had issues in the relationship, I had not considered that Fathers illness could have been me

I am not solely at fault (obligatory I’m not the bad guy) but everyone played their part. I have been trying not to bring up our history and the, parts we both played, in conversations with her. I try to avoid them when talking about them to anyone so as not to feed the disease.

It is really hard not to do.

I have addressed some of the issues we had, she has mentioned I seem different. I wonder how much of that is strictly her perception.

I will keep trying to move things forward, rather than just waiting for them to move on their own.

Thank you.

What do you make of:

I asked: “about waiting until she brings up the current state of our divorce” the answer: 60uc

 

[moss elk]

So my mindset would have been “an impression of her intentions.”

From that point of view:

Line 7.1 “going by all the rules”. - Following the formalities of the divorce. Proceeding with the divorce.

And to add perhaps;
Letting the lawyer direct pace and rythm of things,
maybe she follows their directions with all legal proceedings including delays.

Line 7.2 “Being in the center, making it happen.” - This is an interesting take on the line. Was this based upon any particular interpretation or is that an Elk original?

The question is “who, or what, is in the center of making it happen”?

She is the one in the center,
directing things.

I sent you a PM.

 

[Cuddly_Balrog]

@moss elk

I have not received your PM. Weird.

She is the one in the center,
directing things.

According to my Lawyer, her lawyer is waiting on her. Our lawyers have agreed on all the criteria for the divorce. Her demands, as it were, have been fulfilled. The last thing remaining is her to give the order.

So that does put her in the center of things.

Since she had not given the order for three months it had made me wonder if she still intended to go through with the divorce.

There could be a great many things that are preventing forward motion, the medical condition among them. The delay and the change in her behavior enough for me to question her intent.

 

[moss elk]

I can see both of our PM's.
So, look again.
They are there.

 

[Cuddly_Balrog]

@moss elk

Found em!

When I said I did not see it, I was not intending to imply that you did not send it. I apologize if that was what it sounded like.

The conversation notification was not there, and the conversation did not show up until I switched devices.

I blame my phone.

 

[Topher]

@Topher thanks for responding!

The reason, and only reason, I thought her family is because of ongoing issues she has had with them. The references to the “Father’s illness” drew my mind to her family. It was something we talked about a lot during our drive.

Although that does not mean it could not have been referring to my own “illness” that lead to issues in our relationship. I had not considered that.

I had considered that I had issues in the relationship, I had not considered that Fathers illness could have been me

I am not solely at fault (obligatory I’m not the bad guy) but everyone played their part. I have been trying not to bring up our history and the, parts we both played, in conversations with her. I try to avoid them when talking about them to anyone so as not to feed the disease.

It is really hard not to do.

I have addressed some of the issues we had, she has mentioned I seem different. I wonder how much of that is strictly her perception.

I will keep trying to move things forward, rather than just waiting for them to move on their own.

Thank you.

What do you make of:

the Father illness is not related to her family, it is about the cause of the problem.

18 might require actutally trying addressing the issue directly or in unchanging form giving it time, but still will require direct action.

60 maybe talks about setting limit for that how long you will wait, set a reasonable not too far date/time to wait or starting acting. make a plan on what to do on that time. 60 is about limits I think. so set one you can wait but dont leave the problem without fixing. also dont think all is your fault. just focus on fixing the problem once you see things objectively you will realize whether or not the problem involved you, but if you were not the only one that led to this problem you should talk about it, maybe you could ask again about the cause of the divorce and see if it has changed(from hers point of view)

 

[Cuddly_Balrog]

@Topher I am going to try to address the topic in a more direct way soon.

The last time I we were together we made dinner and chatted then watched a movie. We were not very affectionate I asked if she was not feeling it, she said she was not, I asked if she was not feeling it at all in a forever sense, or rather “I’m cold and hungry and not in the mood...” she said the latter. We had a good time. She said I gave good hugs and went home it was a 6 hour or so date.

I was concerned because she was getting her results back and she was going to tell me, and she was supposed to stop by to see me after a small procedure I was having. She did neither. Now I have not seen, or even really talked to, her in the past two weeks. When she texted to see if the hospital bill came to the house was the first time we had talked it was very brief. She said she was fine, and sorry she did not stop by. There could be any number of reasons for that, not being communicative I mean. I find it difficult to believe someone could be so exhausted they could not send a text, but I only know what I am told.

My point being I think you are right and the limit has been reached.

I did ask “About my current romantic relationship with X” and was told 45.5.6 > 35 Gathering Together and Progress.

My first thought was this is great news! Except I think it is about the conversation itself. (45.5) Making my position known (45.6) Facing a difficult conversation and (35) making progress.

I am hoping this progress is towards reconciliation. Any suggestions in questions to ask?

 

[Topher]

she was supposed to stop by to see me after a small procedure I was having. She did neither. Now I have not seen, or even really talked to, her in the past two weeks

what happened the last time you saw her and this? maybe it is related to the problem, if nothing happened is probably easy to deduct has to do with an external event, maybe you could ask the iching if you arent sure

this is the reason why she changed the behavior, I cant tell what happened but i can pinpoint a root also it could be she would be busy but if you didnt know she would be busy then it isnt likely,

I am going to give my experience with 45,5 it isnt the rule, in line 2 there is someone who will allow the gathering, for me it is a female person, which could serve as a bridge. also could be showing that there is a need to change the male behavior in 45.4 to allow the gathering, not sure what is in your case I cant tell(this paragraph is/might be biased because I got 45.5 I am extrapolating with my own understanding, so better read it yourself from 1 to 6 http://www.iching123.com/45_text.htm ),maybe you should ask:

what should I do to accomplish the gathering in hexagram 45 line 5 (though for me it is clear that 45.2 explains what is required,though that is my own perception in yours it might be different, and also dont always take the text literally(as you did with hex 18),take it figuratively aswell literally, maybe taking male and female lines in consideration either as behaviors or persons)

ps. the reason made me reply this thread was that you said

I did not try to solve the problem, I did not give my opinion on her family situation

and iching told you the opposite(the problem isnt the family unless you are 100% sure that is the cause or "the father"..)

 

[Cuddly_Balrog]

@Topher the only reason I did not solve the problem was because at one point she had said one of the issues she had was that I did not allow her to solve her own problems, to show her own strength.

I would simply take care of whatever the problem was and say “Done! Issue resolved!” Which she said she grew to hate (although she never told me that until later).

This behavior was something her mother used to say I was controlling her by “not letting her do anything”. Which is obviously untrue in that she could do whatever she liked, I just dealt with problems so she did not need to worry. If she had said “I want to do X” ok, do X. If she says “X is a problem” or “X needs done” Done, issue resolved!

I am 100% sure her family (particularly her mother) contributed to the problem. My wife even said her mom was bragging to her friends about “making them get a divorce”.

That being said the hex does talk about the father, so maybe it is talking about something else. I am not 100% sure it is talking about her family (now).

I am going to need to go over the link you have given me.

I appreciate the help, and will ask about line 45.5.

 

[Cuddly_Balrog]

@Topher I asked: “what should I do to accomplish the gathering in hexagram 45 line 5” and was answered with Line 8.2.6 > 59 Uniting to ispersion.

Which seems to say that without a leader the relationship will lack direction. In order for me to be a leader I should be centered in myself and sure of what I want.

8.2: The second line, magnetic, shows the movement toward union and attachment proceeding from the inward mind. With firm correctness there will be good fortune. - Legge​

8.6: The sixth line, magnetic, shows one seeking union and attachment without having taken the first step to such an end. There will be evil. - Legge​

I have been looking at the link you provided and it is interesting, although I am finding it a bit confusing. I have been looking at 45.2 and it seems to say, if I am understanding correctly, that she is waiting for someone to provide her direction. If I am not providing that direction someone else will, and she will follow.

That seems would be related to my 8.2.6 answer, which also speaks to the need of taking a lead but only if I am sure of what I want to accomplish.

I have not heard from her even though she said she would stop over. I had confirmed that I would like to see her, but have not heard anything since. So this may be the end of things.

I would love to hear your interpretation.

Thank You!

 

[Topher]

@Topher I asked: “what should I do to accomplish the gathering in hexagram 45 line 5” and was answered with Line 8.2.6 > 59 Uniting to ispersion.

Which seems to say that without a leader the relationship will lack direction. In order for me to be a leader I should be centered in myself and sure of what I want.

​

8.2: The second line, magnetic, shows the movement toward union and attachment proceeding from the inward mind. With firm correctness there will be good fortune. - Legge​

​

8.6: The sixth line, magnetic, shows one seeking union and attachment without having taken the first step to such an end. There will be evil. - Legge​

I have been looking at the link you provided and it is interesting, although I am finding it a bit confusing. I have been looking at 45.2 and it seems to say, if I am understanding correctly, that she is waiting for someone to provide her direction. If I am not providing that direction someone else will, and she will follow.

That seems would be related to my 8.2.6 answer, which also speaks to the need of taking a lead but only if I am sure of what I want to accomplish.

I have not heard from her even though she said she would stop over. I had confirmed that I would like to see her, but have not heard anything since. So this may be the end of things.

I would love to hear your interpretation.

Thank You!

yes 45.5 is about a king who gathers people together but. only with the help of someone (in line 2) otherwise it isn't possible, also the meaning can be removing behavior form line 4 onto a more female like similar to line 2. you can achieve the gathering. that is my own interpretation, if the person was in line 2 the site describes that you have to be empathetic to said person, and their current situation they are facing, and offer the gathering, in the nearby future they will have to choose if you are REALLY expressing your inner trust(hex61)

8.2
Wing: Trust your inner mind, maintain your integrity, and follow the demands of your convictions. You will be sought after by others. If you chase after the approval of others, you will lose your dignity.

you could try to introspect in the situation, then look on what is really required for her to improve your current relationship, be yourself and the person who she said she loved.being someone else is not probably going to work.