Magical thinking

[django]

Hi all
I wonder if any of you have any thoughts on what Wilhelm called "magical thinking" If I could quote from Wilhelm's Lectures on the I Ching,
Constancy and change
It is quite likely that Wilhelm's interest in psychology. particularly Jungian psychology led him to see the Changes as <U> currently relevant</U>. He discussed the psychological implications of the text at various times and within different contexts;and,of course a careful reading of his notes to the hexagrams of the I Ching shows this view clearly. For example, he emphasized that the book's philosophy "penetrates more deeply from the conscious life of the human being..... into the unconscious spheres"...relaying a unified image of Cosmos soul experience
This transcends the individual,and reaches mankind's collective existence.... [Jung's collective unconscious???]
At another time he addressed himself to the psychology of thinking, stating that the notion of of true or false thinking is an erroneous one. Magic Thinking one of the bases of the Changes, when properly practised, is as true as is logical-mathematical thinking. The system of I Ching thought without being primitive....Has captured and developed certain bases of primitive thinking that <U> are now lost to the West</U>.
Django.

 

[django]

Hi Again
If perhaps I could give an example of our difficulty in using Magical Thinking It might make my previous post a little clearer

Many years ago after I had done a series of lectures on the I Ching I was approached by a young student, and he inquired if I could do a reading for him. I declined, as I did not like to mix the Changes with my practise [psychotherapy} He seemed quite "distressed" and agitated [ I learned he was suffering from a very bad anxiety complex.

I relented and agreed to do a reading.His anxiety
manifested itself mainly in religious problems, he was literally being "torn apart" by wondering as to whether The Shroud Of Turin was in fact genuine.Anyway he received the 48th hexagram
with the fifth line changing...... A well that is fed by a spring of living water is a good well.A man who has virtues like a well of this sort is born to be a "leader and savior" of men for he has the water of life. never the less the the character for good fortune is left out here.

Did not Jesus state he was a living well? He who drinks from me will never thirst?
and last but not least the character for good fortune was left out.Here was The I Ching talking about a Savior who would not be born for a thousand or two years and would not suffer "good fortune" on Calvery

But the question you would like to know is did the Oracle blow his socks off?......Well no, it didnt, cause it didnt answer his question regarding the shroud. His mind could not make that quantum leap of "magical thinking" and see the I Ching was trying to broaden his mind instead of the Western linear[cause and effect] thinking. I was certainly humbled and enriched by that experience.While he unfortunately would not let go of the "material"[forgive the pun]world
Django.

 

[hilary]

Very interesting, Django! I think I'm beginning to see what you mean from that example of what magical thinking isn't, though if you could muster a couple more examples of how it works, I would be grateful. (Besides, I'm always greedy for more stories of Yi in conversation.)

I'm surprised to hear that someone who was so devoutly Christian as to be concerned about whether the Turin shroud is genuine would turn to an oracle for revelation. I remember my father giving thought to the oracle, and not saying that it wouldn't work, just that one shouldn't need or require it to work. This makes me wonder how far your student would have felt comfortable in going in listening to an answer from Yi... let alone allowing it to enter his soul and rewrite his way of understanding, like someone shaking a kaleidoscope...

Another thing - I do quite often hear from people looking for I Ching workshops or groups in their area. Are you still offering these things, and if so, where?

 

[candid]

Hi Django,

All I can do is nod along with what you (and Wilhelm) have stated here about magical thinking.

Most western religious concepts are closed to seeing anything which they can not point to outside themselves. God is "out there." Heaven is a literal place, again, ?out there.? The church is a building rather then a social organism or community. Its forbidden to meditate or even contemplate beyond the rigid faith dogma, and prayer is bound to protocol.

Its no wonder your patient would not allow himself to see the association between 48/5 and the shroud. It quite literally was against his religion. Shame though since Jesus is quoted as saying, ?the kingdom of God is within,? and, ?I am in the father and the father is in me.? To think of oneself as a savior of men is blasphemy. Magic is forbidden accept for those practices which are specifically endorsed in scripture, IE: speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, or ingesting the Eucharist. Only Jesus? magic was legitimate and all magic must be done through him, post mortem.

It is a quantum leap I?ve taken and have never looked back. I don?t say this proudly but, it was the single most difficult thing I?ve ever done in this lifetime. The ?salvation? premise is so captivating and terrifying, one dare not consider anything which could lead away from the doctrine of (external) faith. Ones very soul dangles from a thread over the fires of hell. Strangely, it took two successive dreams to liberate me finally from the bondage of external faith. Quite magical, I thought.

Candid

 

[gene]

Candid

Boy, don't I know it. Being saved and baptized in the Baptist Church, believing Jesus was my savior, I thought, no matter what else, I was going to go to heaven forever. What a shock to find out it wasn't quite the truth. Not quite. Of course, when I first started to get wind of it, and started using the I Ching, Tarot cards etc. What a disaster if my parents or relatives came over to the house unannounced. I must be in league with the Devil. Whether Jesus ever existed or not as an entity is open to serious debate. However, while the literal interpretation of scripture is not correct, there is a thread that runs through, the early mystics knew that by making their teachings too open they were running the risk of being questioned by the authorites, so things were done in code. Anyway, I find the answer quite interesting. While it does not answer directly, it gives a type of information that relates very well. I think, technically Jesus said the water that he had gave eternal life, rather than he was the water, but that may not be a significant difference. To me, Jesus was talking about a way, not a religion. It is a way to follow, not a matter of believing in him. As such, his way sounds a lot more like the Eastern Religions to me.

Gene

 

[candid]

Hi Gene,

Nice that we've shared similar experiences and can relate on it.

Its for certain that Christ wasn't a Christian. Just what he was is still a matter of debate. The Dead Sea Scrolls, or what's left of them to see that the Vatican hasn't stolen, tells of a leader among the pacifist Eseens (sp?) who occupied the valley and caves where the scriptures were found. I believe they called him the son of heaven. His personal goal and calling was to rid the temple of the puppet priests installed by Rome. Its really a rare piece of historical document, as what's otherwise known of the history surrounding Jesus? alleged living ministry is absent. What's left is a testimony and interpretation of Paul, who wrote nearly 3/4 of the New Testament and who never claimed to even meet the man known as Jesus, other than in a vision. Its was Paul who invented the doctrine of salvation through grace. Jesus' own brother, an apostle, turned and left Paul along with several other followers. Paul found a friend in young Timothy and mentored him in this "new" doctrine.

Personally, I've concluded that Jesus may well have been a self realized master. He may even have been a literal manifestation of Chen in human form. That's how I always envisioned him while I was a Christian. Chen Christ, the first born of heaven and earth. There's still something spiritually appealing to me about that image. Recognizing that I just don't know the absolute truth of it makes it safe to visualize at times. The first born son of God - the dragon.

Candid

 

[gene]

Hi again, Candid

Yes, actually I believe there was a historical figure that relates to the Christ figure, however, there is significant debate as to what he actually did and did not do. One thing I am now convinced of that was really hard to take at first. He did not personally die for our sins as the son of God. The Jesus myth is different in very literal respect to the Dionysis myth of Greek mythology, and the saviors of many cultures that existed long before Greece or Rome.

Several of the Pauline epistles are now considered to be forgeries, some of the others, like the letters to the Romans and Corinthians, do have a more gnostic makeup. Although it is really hard to separate fact from fiction. But I think of that old TV show, "Truth or Consequences," where at the end they said..."will the real....please stand up." Will the real Paul, will the real Jesus, etc. please stand up? Interestingly, there is a book out now called something to the effect of "Jesus, the last of the Pharoahs," talks of the authors believe that Paul and Josephus, the historian might have been the same person, and that he acted as a double agent somewhat like James Bond in present day movies. At any rate, thanks to Rome, Christianity really got side tracked. And I'll bet that Jesus used divination something akin to the I Ching if not the I Ching itself. Whatever they had in those days. Anyway, the new testament does clearly indicate a real struggle between Paul and some of the early apostles, a very real difference in opinion, but did Paul intentionally sidetrack the growing religion, or did he just incidentally side track it a little bit, and the events of the early and middle ages caused it to sidetrack much further? All very interesting speculation. I might see if I can find a right way to phrase some of these questions to the I Ching and see what it comes up with.

Gene

 

[candid]

Hi Gene,

One of the events which lead to my unconversion of the faith was when I found two Rabbis online who were kind enough to answer my questions concerning why the Jews reject the fulfillment of their own prophesies of the Messiah. In the weeks that followed it was explained to me that all the prophesies concerning the Messiah had referred to Jacob, who later was named, Israel. It is Israel who they believe was/is the suffering savior. We read through each O.T. prophesy that has been linked by the Christian believers to Jesus, and in each case, Jacob was referred to as both the savior and the saved, or redeemed one. It was O.T. prophecy which originally led me to believe in its fulfillment through Christ. Once that connection had been dissolved, the inner changes began to occur (49), leading to my renunciation of the faith.

I personally doubt that Paul faked his faith to corrupt the gospel. He invested too much of himself in his work for it to simply have been a diversionary tactic. I believe that his misguided zeal was genuine and that his personal conviction was demonstrated throughout his tribulations. His messages, however, demonstrated a confused waffling between absolute grace and adherence to Jewish religious tradition. While I believe he was sincere I also believe his blinding trip to Damascus was symbolic of his unwillingness to truly see the light of eternity of the end. He had supplanted the mistress/master of his house and had married the maiden instead (54).

Candid

 

[django]

Hi all
I wish to thank you all for your interesting points and to "teasing" out the thread in a very interesting way.
Hilary you said you were surprised that such a devout Christian would be concerned as to whether the shroud was, or was not genuine. I am afraid one has to peel back many layers of human personality to get to the roots of an obsession.
You bring up a very interesting point though, that of faith!.It has been my experience that in a certain type of personality the dark shadow of faith<U> is doubt</U>, which refuses to be repressed and thrusts up into their conscious world as something autominous and viewed as demonic. In other words their Magical thinkingis something to be fought with, rather than to be seen as something helpful.... in our student he wanted the shroud to be <U> real</U>... Wanted Jesus to be concrete!.

In many other Christians the doubt is deeply repressed and does not seem to bother them but still manages to manifest itself in digestive problems,bad temper outbursts, and sexual abuse and so on. When 'magical thinking'is viewed as demonic it simply acts accordingly[sorry for the long winded psychological exposition but I simply do not know how else to describe the effects of the dark side of faith.]

You asked as to whether I run workshops on the I Ching, well I am now retired and have withdrawn from "public Life" {Beautifully put by the Yi }
I tried to introduce the Yi into a [jungian] psychological training organisation to which I belonged
and was viewed as almost Satanic by those at the top, although the students could not wait to attend my "ex cathedra" seminars.
Candid.. I really enjoyed your description of "letting go" as Jung said If it is ones fate to go over into the abyss, then go over willingly
It is strange to be talking about divination when Baghdad will be burning in a few hours.Strange days indeed!
Django.

 

[gene]

Hi again, Candid and everyone

I will try to not let this get too far from an I Ching discussion, but I did want to respond to a few things. Candid, I too, have spent some time with the Jews, and most Christians would be very shame faced after spending a little time with them and finding out how deep their knowledge is. I went to the synagogue a few times, til I mistakenly called the Torah the old testament. An investigation was done, it was determined I was not Jewish, and was asked not to come back. I still talked to a few of them after that though in private. Many of the Jews were truly looking for a messiah, but a military one, not a religious one. The Jews have systems of codes, in which they can, with the help of some of their other books, I believe called the Tanauch, though I have forgotten, decode some of the codes. And on the basis of that, they have determined Jesus was not the Messiah. "Houston, we have a problem." Jesus did not fit the criteria. Or did he? The problem is, the early Christians knew Gematria and Kabbalah too. The gospels however, have a lot of writings in them which, when compared to the Torah texts they refer to, show that the writers of the gospels did not have a good knowledge of Hebrew. But some one else comes along, and says, yes, but many passages in the New Testament have been tampered with. The original texts were more accurate. All of this would be over the head of the average Christian. The dead sea scrolls are throwing another wrench in the works. My own feelings? The story of Jesus is not literally true, but is a symbol of a deeper meaning. In ancient times, mystery schools were available to those who showed a high degree of maturity and morality. Those schools over the years though, have been infiltrated by agents of darkness, and confusion reigns, purposefully and planned. The sun rises in the East, and the spiritual sun does too, and I believe we have to look further and further to the East to get to the truth. Nevertheless, under the surface of the lies planted into the gospels, and I am coming to conclude more and more, into the Torah as well, there is an element of truth there. It takes an awful lot of research to get to it though. To a certain extent a great deal of research is necessary with the I Ching too, to get to the deeper truths.

Django

I think you are right on about the doubts.

Gene

 

[cal val]

Gene...

The Jewish criteria, as told to me by my rabbi, is...when the Messiah comes, the lion will lay down with the lamb. On the eve of an unprecedented war, I can safely say, with great sadness, the criteria has not been met.

I'd love to know what sect of Jews you were studying with. Though they do not proselytize, most Jews welcome non-Jews to learn about their religion including observing...unless you start to consume a good deal of the synagogue resources...at which point they ARE going to want 10% of your gross income and require that you buy tickets for the high holy days services...*grin*

I'm intentionally being simplistic here...to make a long story short. If any other Jews reading this want to elaborate...or debate anything I've said, that would be great. The Jewish religion does not have a lot of dogma. It leaves room for magical thinking. A lot of Jewish learning is through discussing and debating or pilpul. It makes the religion very exciting.

There once was a guy who predicted when the Messiah would come. I don't know that he used a code though. His students made their prediction. It got crazy. Lots of false messiahs started turning up, so the prediction of the coming of the messiah was forbidden. If there was a code involved in the sect you studied, I suspect they might have been Kabalists. Most Jews don't focus on the coming of the Messiah. They're not waiting and hoping. When he gets here he gets here, meanwhile life goes on. Their main focus is on 'one god.' It's the Jewish way to live in the here and now...to live life to make it a better world now and for generations to come rather than to live life for reward in the hereafter.

The Torah is a combination of books. Genesis alone is a combination of four different books. When the Jews were being dispersed from Israel into the diaspora around 700 BCE by the Babylonians, the elders got together in the library and went through all the books, dividing them into two groups...truths and un-truths. Truth did not mean true stories. Truth meant "this one has a good moral story."

After the books were divided, the elders edited all the books in the truth pile into one edition called the Torah, and they memorized it. When the tribes were sent in different directions, each tribe had an elder who had memorized the Torah. And for many generations the Torah was passed down verbally until it was finally written down again. It's utterly amazing how close the Torah today is to the original Torah those elders memorized.

The Old Testament is the Christian version of the Torah. Don't forget that the Christian bible has been translated through the ages, and the books were interpreted according to the belief system of the time. Much of the ancient Hebrew was misinterpreted. For instance, the original Hebrew word that was translated to Adam, a name, actually meant mankind. And the word that became Eve, a name, actually meant "she who brings forth." IMHO, Genesis, when properly translated, is an excellent case for evolution. It's a good moral story at any rate...*grin*

Paul was Saul, by the way, before he went to Greece proselytizing. There might not be a religion called Christianity today if it weren't for the fact not a lot of Greeks were keen on the idea of being circumcised. He was just trying to spread the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who had a lot of insight and wisdom, and in order to gain adherents, he had to make some changes to the rules. The new rule, no circumcision required, was rejected by the Jews, so he got resourceful and started his own thing.

There is, of course, a lot of debate about just how Christianity started, who said what to whom, when and why, and that would be due to the fact there's not a lot of written history to give us a clear picture of actual events. We keep digging stuff up, but no videos have been unearthed yet (to my knowledge), and videos would be the definitive documentation...*grin*

Ciao for now,

Val

 

[gene]

Val

It was only the rabbi who wanted me to leave. Not sure which sect he was from, I don't remember. But a stricter version. The ironic twist was that he liked me at first because he thought my ideas were more akin to his own. There were a couple people who had ideas different from his and he suspected they were not Jewish. He wanted them to leave. When he found out I was the one that was not Jewish he about had a heart attack. The one he least expected. Nobody else in the synagogue would have cared. There is further irony. The ones he expected were not Jewish were not Jews by birth but by conversion. This particular Rabbi, and he was a very highly respected Rabbi among the Jewish people, had flown in from New York to spend some time in the little Synagogue in, well, I won't say, just in case someone might remember the incident. Not likely, but who knows. Anyway, this particular Rabbi may not have been too keen on converts either. I don't know. And even more ironic, the Jewish converts were atheists who did not believe in the Jewish religion at all, or the Kaballah, or anything like it, but loved to study it because they were highly intelligent, very cerebral type people. The Kaballah gave them something to stimulate their minds, etc. One of them was a very good chess player, who learned in a very short period of time, and started beating established players, tournament players, friends of mine, who got so discusted about being beat by a nobody they broke their boards and vowed never to play again. But that's the kind of intelligence he had.

Gene

 

[gene]

Val

There were lots of self proclaimed messiahs at the time of Jesus too. Many of them, I believe got themselves crucified or arrested at any rate. And of course, there was the leader at the fortress at Mesada, whom I believe thought of himself as a Messiah. When he learned of the ingenuity of the Romans, and that the battle was lost, he was astonished, and declared that perhaps after all this was only a small part of the battle against the forces of evil, and there would be another battle at another date. (By the way, Saddam Hussein believes himself to be a reincarnation of King Neduccadnezzar of Babylon, who in turn, believed himself to be a reincarnation of Nimrod, the builder of the Tower of Babel. I suspect George Bush believes himself to be a reincarnation of someone too, and believes this battle has been fought before. A couple stories from the Torah come to mind. The conflict betwen Isaac and Ishmael, and the conflict between Jacob and Esau.)

Well, the Lion shall indeed lie down with the lamb, someday, but not literally, both Iraq and Britain have as their symbol the Lion. And Jesus was the lamb of God. To the Christians, the lack of peace can be explained away by the second coming. However, when Jesus talked about the signs of the end times, There was an indication that his feet would once again touch the mount of olives, to the Christians the second coming. But there are hidden symbols there. The Son of man in some circles was considered to be a code for the constellation Orion. And when do the feet of the constellation of Orion once again touch the mount of Olives at Sunrise? Well, how about the year 2012 as depicted in the Mayan calendar? Everything was done in code.

Gene

 

[candid]

Facinating stuff, yall!

 

[bfireman]

Saw a bumper sticker the other day that said, "Jesus hates war, you moron!"

Peace - Brian

 

[pedro]

Nice thread

Im was raised in a catholic environment, and to the maxim "he who's not catholic is not a good family man", but still very young my rational mind wouldnt cope with all the dogmas. In my view, and as Candid said, Jesus was not christian, much less catholic. Jesus was one enlightened man, just like Buddha, the Boddhisattva, and many others. Jesus words, whats left of them anyway, can always be interpreted in the light of Buddhism. Think about it, catholicism is as a simplified version of some buddhist concepts, the divine trine being the three refuges, heaven and earth a short view of karma and reencarnation, etc. Besides I find it plausible there would be no reason for omiting all references to his life from a very young age to his early trhirties, should he not have been travelling the far east and learning the "pagan" doctrine of buddhism (shame on him).
The criticism I have towards church in general and catholic in particular, is that they who should provide the example, are the ones who most often egotistically manipulate the so called truth to serve their interests.
And I must say, my real admiration by Jesus only developed when I started thinking of him as a man of flesh and blood, and conceived in the traditional way (which I must add is still the best). What merit is there in a person that is perfect cause he is the son of god? C'mon, if he is the son of the boss he already has it all without needing any effort.
That a man of flesh and blood, with the same weakenesses as you and me, can reach that enlightened state, now that is admirable.

 

[gene]

Puts a little different light on it, doesn't it Pedro?

Gene

 

[anita]

According to the spiritual tradition I follow which is at least 5000 years old, Jesus underwent the ceremony of the opening of the third eye too (along with Prophet Mohammed and Gautama Buddha and many more) in India perhaps and then came his preachings that turned into Christianity. No wonder Buddhist views are similar to his. In the Bible somewhere there's mention of baptism by fire in the future and this is what the ceremony is. One is initiated via the flame.

Lovely man Jesus. I was brought up more or less as a Christian, devouring a magnificent bible in pictures as a child. I saw Christ more as a human being when I read 'The Last Temptation ' by Kazantzakis. by the way, although I never dedicated myself to Christianity ever (or to any other religion), I had a vision of Christ a s a child. I suppose that's because both of us had something in common -- the ceremony which of course I was to discover in later years. Not to say I am anywhere near his level of enlightenment! At the time of Christ, the path was only given to one Guru at one time. It is only because of the kailyuga now that ordinary people like me can receive it.

Best for your Quest
Anita

 

[gene]

Anita

I have found more and more that when the teachings of Christ are considered in a more esoteric, or more metaphysical or you might say more allegorical manner, they come closer and closer to Buddhism, at least what I understand of Buddhism. If I were forced to describe my religion, so to speak, I would call myself a Christian Buddhist Taoist. Although, in their purest form, none of them are in my view, a religion. There is a debate going on in this country, among some scholars anyway, as to whether Jesus ever truly existed. There is little record of him outside of the Bible. However, many of the ancient texts were burned or destroyed. And yet, the ones who burned and destroyed, were those who were interpreting a literal interpretation of Jesus as God, and having to believe in him through the Church. It gets very complex. There are some records that could be interpreted to say that Jeus spent the 18 unexplained years of his life, in mystery schools in India, Egypt, and elsewhere. If he did exist, I wonder if he ever studied the I Ching? The ancient people got around the world much better than modern man would like to believe. I have heard that the Chinese ideogram for the number 5 is a cross. I wish I knew more about those things. But as Solomon said, "of the writing of books there is no end..." How does anyone ever learn it all?!

What is the ceremony like?

Gene

 

[anita]

Gene,


The Ceremony has nothing to do with meditation. The belief is that this is not the era for attaining enlightenment through meditation. Action is important here. The ceremony is basically an opening of the Third Eye through the holy touch of a Guru. The third eye is the gate of the soul and through this opening we are once again connected to our divine orgin. That is much power both to body and soul. This ceremony enables one to transcend the wheel of rebirth for when one dies the soul leaves through this correct gate (instead of escaping through the eyes, ears, nose, mouth, ears, navel or the top of the head) and returns to its divine origin -- impossible unless this gate is opened.

Interestingly, the Buddha passed on this great message or initiation to his disciple Mahakasyapa by just turning a flower in his fingers during a discourse. The only one who understood this strange silent discourse happened to be M.

So what is this action the path recommends? Being vegetarian, accepting one's troubles as one's own karma and not laying the blame for them on others, doing divine work and a whole lot of prayer which further cuts bad karma and brings us realisation as well as health and mental peace.

The ceremony is performed while three flames are lit -- and this is the 'baptism by fire' I'm told is mentioned in the Bible.

Best for your Quest

 

[gene]

Wow,

Sounds like it is a ceremony that is exactly what I would like. I know a few Buddhist people here. I will see if I can find out about this ceremony here. Yes, the esoteric Christian foundation has the same concept, I don't know about any such ceremonies though. They were probably enacted at one time however, until the literalist Roman Church began to hunt down and destroy any aspect of the more gnositc christian community.

Gene

 

[anita]

Hi Gene,

You certainly wouldn't know of any such ceremony -- since this has been a secret tradition for over 5000 years and has no scriptures or written tradition. Only since the past 60 years or so it's been made available to the unenlightened, ordinary people like me because this Kaliyug ais the age of disaster -- we expect 81 disasters in this what we call The White Sun Period. The ceremony is necessary to protect body and mind in this era and good karma is the only prerequisite.
We just discussed the way Christ received this in the Himalayas from Bodhidharma the creator of Zen Buddhism who was South Indian and carried it to China from India. He was one of the Great Masters of this Path, but Christ was not. He was simply given the transmission because of his great deeds.

Why not come down to India to receive it? I can promise it will be worth it.

Best for your Quest

Anita

 

[binz]

Anita, Gene

the thread with the address is

"I am desperate for some help"

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/525.html?1044282243

Binz

 

[gene]

Hi Anita

I would love to come to India. However it is not possible. Since I lost my last job my finances are almost depleted. I am not planning on going back into the corporate world. I do plan to go into business for myself. I expect to start teaching some serious Tai Chi classes in the near future which may help me survive. Right now I am teaching some senior citizens who have Parkinson's disease or other infirmities, but the reimbursement is very small. If I make these classes work, and able to find other business adventures that work for me, that would be a very serious consideration for me. I am doing some other very serious things. If you are aware at all of Sir Laurence Gardner's teachings about the Holy Grail, etc... well, I won't say too much, except some very interesting things have come to light lately about the technology behind the Ark of the Covenant and the Israelite tabernacle. There has been throughout history a secret alchemy, which involved turning base metals into gold. Well, that may not be what it is exactly, but they are finding certain substances involving gold and platinum that have a high spin rate in their electrons, and properties that are amazing. I won't say anything more right now, but he and two others are having seminars in France and Ireland, where relics are supposedly buried etc....Another thing I would spend my money on if I had it. Who knows, maybe I will win the lottery next week. What you describe with the ceremony sounds very, very interesting to me.

Thanks,
Gene

 

[gene]

Thanks Binz, for the address. I went to it, but my computer seemed to mess up when I got there. I will check it out again a little later.

Anita, There certainly is cause for concern about this time period being a time of disaster. According to the Mayan calendar, this present age ends on Dec 22. 2012. That does not mean the end of the world however, only the end of the age. It is commonly known that we are ending the age of Pisces and becoming atuned to the age of Aquarius. The sphynx outside of the great pyramid is an image of a man/woman, and a lion. This refers collectively to the age of aquarius and leo. They are polar opposites. Speaking of polar, it appears to be in these two signs generally that the magnetic field of the sun changes, which changes the polarity of the earths magnetic field, and the poles shift. There is still speculation however, as to what specifically will happen, but it does seem to me we are living in the end times in a number of ways.

Gene

 

[anita]

Hi Gene,

End of the Age...hmmm. Same belief here after which begins Heaven on Earth.

Have you noticed how often the Yi refers to Heaven's Way? After all, both Lao Tzu and Confucius were masters of this path.

Sure I've been interested in legends about the Holy Grail and have read a couple of books on the subject. What you say is amazing. Hope you can find a way to turn base metal into gold. Then you can come here and receive something which is far, far more precious. I will look after your stay if you do. All mysteries are highly fascinating, aren't they?


Best for your Quest

Anita

 

[gene]

Hi Anita

I will certainly look toward the possibility of doing what you are recommending. If it becomes possible I will let you know.
The stuff I am looking for will do a lot more than turning base metals to gold. It has to with refining and redefining the physical and spiritual body.
I have always been on a spiritual quest you might say, though in my earlier years in quite a naive way...but now...the gospels have an interesting story about a man who found a pearl of great price and went and sold all he could to buy the field. The pearl being the deeper spiritual truths in my understanding. Well, I believe I have found that now, Anita. However, so far it is only in an intellectual way. I practice daily to make it become a part of me spiritually. And I will say this, coming to India for a time does sound intuitively to me a part of my path. We will see.

Gene

 

[anita]

Great Gene!
As Guruji says, no matter where people are in the world, if they have the connection they will receive the holy transmission.

Best for Your Quest
Anita

 

[malka]

Jumping in here...I am Jewish and at no time in my education have I ever, ever heard of Jacob referred to as the Messiah. Not at all! Jews also do not reject our own prophecy of the Messiah! Here is an excellent link that describes the Jewish understanding of the Messiah (in the Hebrew, "Moshiach.")

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

The story of Jacob very simply is that he struggled all night long with the angels of G-d, and in the morning he was given a new name, Israel. The Hebrew translation of the name Israel is, "one who struggles with G-d." While Israel is now the name of a country, the word Israel is often used to mean, "the Jewish People."

By the way, Jews never spell out the word G-d on anything that could be destroyed (hence the "-") because the word is considered very sacred.

Other links:

http://www.aish.com/

http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/

http://www.aleph.org/html/aleph.html

 

[gene]

Hi

I am too lazy to go back through the thread and see what was said about Jacob. And I will be the first to admit, I am not Jewish, although I have studied with them on a limited basis. I suspect though that the conversation might have revolved around "types of the Messiah." That is not necessarily a Jewish concept, but the idea was prevalent in ancient times that the stories were not necessarily a linear progression of events, but often allegories describing metaphysical truths. As such, it was considered that mythological or historical figures given prominent places in the Torah were allegories or types of many different things at the same time, and one would be a picture of what the Messiah was like. By studying the figures and their attributes and characteristics it was assumed that one would be able to recognize the messiah by those specific characteristics. Jacob in another sense might have been an allegory of the man who, seeing the horrific terrors and horrors coming upon the world demanded of G-d that he do not leave the world in its present state, but return as Messiah to get us out of a mess that might destroy all of society, all societies. "I will not let thee go except thou bless me." And another saying, henceforth thou shalt not see me til thou sayest, blessed is he that cometh in the name of the lord. Only by a great cry, of the inhabitants of the world who are not the oppressors, but the oppressed, saying, we all perish lest thou come, does the Messiah come. It would appear that the world was in that mess during the time of the Roman rule. For that reason, many saw Jesus, as well as others, as the Messiah. However, whether he was or not, at that time, he only pointed the way. For the Jews of that time they would have been like the person in hexagram 20:2, which says that one only sees things in the perspective of how they relate to him/herself. The whole world was not in jeopardy at that time, only the middle east and western europe, and even they were not subject to nuclear holocaust. Not arguing here that Jesus was or was not the Messiah, but recalling that Jesus himself said, "when you see a man carrying a pitcher of water, follow him into the upper room." A man bearing an urn of water is the symbol for aquarius, so what does that tell us? And the upper room? Perhaps that is the heavens, I don't know. The only way though, very possibly to escape the holocaust is to go into the heavens. On a space shuttle possibly? Disaster may strike, if not from nuclear weapons, perhaps from another pole shift in the year 2012. I don't know. One thing I am firmly convinced of, this planet is headed toward a very rocky road starting somewhere between three and six years from now.

Gene