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Meaning of 15.5

marybluesky

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Hilary's translation:

Not rich in your neighbour,
Fruitful to use this to invade and conquer.
Nothing that does not bear fruit.'


Bradford's translation:

"No enrichment by way of these neighbors Worthwhile and useful to occupy and subjugate* Nothing cannot be turned to advantage
15.5x Worthwhile (and) useful to occupy (and) subjugate: To expedite without permission"


Invade, conquer, occupy, subjugate. Does the line always invites us to go out of our comfort zone and take forceful action? Sometimes I have received it and couldn't see what forceful action was possible.
 

my_key

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Hi marybluesky

Hex 15.5 lies at the position in the hexagram where there is a connection to your real purpose. You might gain some insights in reading through 'Hex 15 - The Greek War Horse' thread.

Hex 15 has a quality of 'controlled strength' i.e we are able to be authentic and stand in our power without harming ourself or others. We do not possess an axe to grind and can stand calm and centred without prejudice or favour. However if we need to we can get that axe out and wield it in an appropriate way to counter and overcome favourably the circumstances we encounter.

So the translations by Hilary and Bradford may be pointers towards.

You don't need to listen to others (neighbours) or follow / react to what they are doing. Trust in yourself and your own inner strength to determine what is the right thing to do in this situation and the appropriate level of 'force' to apply.
 

surnevs

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Like in hex. 1 a Dragon is a mythologic creature that can shift shapes also the words used in the I Ching doesn't have a fixed meaning but rather a dynamic ie. like metaphors. But they could as well have the literal meaning like in hex. 2 the Mare. "Weapons" as used in hex. 45, the Image in Wilhelm/Baynes, could as well be a metaphor for example a lawyer who to be renewed for better defence in a lawsuit, as weapons back then were for defence as well as for attacks. Another example could be words used, as weapons could also be a metaphor for words sharpened. What I mean shortly is that the meaning of the text in the I Ching doesn't have a fixed meaning as well as it could have it as the Dragon could be the Superior man as well as the Star constellation "Dragon" etc...
________________________________

PS: I'm glad I was able to edit this posting because when writing it I wrote it spontaneously and now when rereading it I recognized some errors - and maybe I also should have written that to me personally the first hexagram, Ch'ien, with the appearance of Dragons mainly, dragons who are known from ancient times to be able to transform/shift shapes, tell me, or give me a hint toward, that in the same way the words and phrases used throughout the I Ching also can be understood that way, to example the word "superior man" can as well be taken for being the head of the High school. And as well I have experienced too that the words and phrases can speak in their literal meaning.
(Finally, this is not written to make a distance to my_key's example)
 
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surnevs

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Hilary's translation:

Not rich in your neighbour,
Fruitful to use this to invade and conquer.
Nothing that does not bear fruit.'


Bradford's translation:

"No enrichment by way of these neighbors Worthwhile and useful to occupy and subjugate* Nothing cannot be turned to advantage
15.5x Worthwhile (and) useful to occupy (and) subjugate: To expedite without permission"


Invade, conquer, occupy, subjugate. Does the line always invites us to go out of our comfort zone and take forceful action? Sometimes I have received it and couldn't see what forceful action was possible.
Concerning what I've marked in red: This article cope with that aspect. I can recommend the article by Tze-ki Hon where an explanation for it can be found (pdf download)
 

dfreed

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Bradford's translation of 15.5: "No enrichment by way of these neighbors Worthwhile and useful to occupy and subjugate* Nothing cannot be turned to advantage

From afar, it seems that people (and the leaders and rulers) in ancient China were often occupied - and perhaps preoccupied - with war, and with occupying and subjugating other lands. It's no wonder then that the Yi's language sometimes seems forceful and violent.

Generally speaking (and not knowing the specifics), I can see this as a call to take decisive action; and that in this instance, you're the one whom has to do this, and gain from it - having your neighbors do it will not do!

I think the 'who' and 'what' are not as important here - and will change depending on our situation and what we ask about: it could be as simple as deciding to get up, get dressed and go for a long walk; or it could be deciding to not allow someone who is abusive or hurtful into your life, or a myriad of other decisions.

Stretching my divinatory 'wings' a bit, I can see this reflected in the trigrams: with 15.5, Hex. 15's upper trigram Earth give us trigram Water: so, you not only should take decisive, down-to-earth action, but you might consider stretching yourself a bit - take a risk, go with the flow ....

After all, if you went into battle in ancient China, you might end up "occupying and subjugating" or you might end up being the one whom was subjugated and occupied! (Though 15's text indicates your actions will be to your advantage - and you will get results!)

D.
 
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moss elk

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Does the line always invites us to go out of our comfort zone and take forceful action? Sometimes I have received it and couldn't see what forceful action was possible.

No, I don't think it does.
It's not an order or command.

I think if you focus on the first message in the three sentences
'those people suck'
accompanied by groans and eyerolls,
you will be in the place of knowing and
still get to decide for yourself about the punitive expedition part.
Sometimes we can just walk away or take other routes.
 

rosada

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Ordinarily neighbors are supposed to help each other or at least play by the rules but if your neighbor is being a jerk, playing loud music, leaving trash in the front yard etc., then you are not rich in your neighbor and in fact it would not be inappropriate for you to call the cops, or go over and confront them yourself. Modesty does not mean being a whimp. Speak up when you are in the right!
 

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