Memorizing the I Ching 24. Fu / Return (The Turning Point)

[dobro p]

In some ways, 24.6 is not as dire as you might think. I mean sure, 24.6 says you've missed the boat, but it *does* say in 'ten years' you'll have another crack at it. By contrast, some sources say that there are some once-in-a-lifetime opportunities which, if you miss them, don't come again.

Still, I'd rather not draw 24.6 if I can help it.

 

[rosada]

I've gone back and completed the quote from Wilhelm on the previous page so people may want to go back and look at that again.

So 24.6 is about obstinacy.
I think of my three year old friend who knows how to strike a pose when he feels his needs are being run rough shod over by his more hyper 4 year old older sibling. At times it's a good gesture, makes everyone stop the parade and see what he needs. But if he doesn't snap out of it once his needs are met, if he continues to be a jerk and pout we just keep going and he gets left behind.
I also think about our current administration and the war in Iraq.:
Missing the return. Misfortune. (Should have pulled out when civil war first broke out?)
Misfortune from within and without. (Neither Iraq nor the Americans happy.)
If armies are set marching in this way,
One will in the end suffer a great defeat,
Disastrous for the ruler of the country (Bush).
For ten years
It will not be possible to attack again.

Well, maybe this hexagram doesn't apply to Bush, but it certainly shows what happens when one continues with a course of action out of blind obstinacy. The whole lesson in Return I think is about being able to admit mistakes, see where one was off the path, and get back in alignment. Alignment meaning living so that your walk matches your talk. I think of a wanderer who has somehow gotten off the path radioing his co-ordinates to the rescue squad. But what if you're afraid to say, "Well, i'm lost, I'm not sure where I am, but the landmarks are I'm standing outside a bar and I now have a tattoo."? If you're afraid to say where/who you really are, how will you ever be able to Return? But if you don't, if you obstanently insist you don't have a tattoo, will they ever find you? So I think this is why hex 25 Innocence says that if a person is Innocent, that is, if they can just say, "Here I am, standing in the need of prayer," everything will work out. But if they claim to be different from how they really are, if we say, "I didn't have anything to do with this," then we truly are lost and we have misfortune.

 

[bruce_g]

mmm, I don't associate anything wrong r.e. 24, unless one gets out of sync with the time, or if forces aren't in balance.

You're always in the process of turning. Centrifugal force moves the object away from the center of gravity. Picture the object's outward force as becoming greater than the gravitational pull; the "string" breaks, and away it goes - line 6.

I'd say line 6 loses its orbit. Can no longer return. That doesn't mean every time we get 24.6 it's hopeless. But we lose our grip on whatever it was we were holding on to.

One more thing to try to make this idea clearer. If we are always in the process of turning, we are also always in the process of returning.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+

Line 5
"One returns like a warrior, noble in the recognition of one's mistake but finding no need to change one's attitude. [Attitude being an important part of what makes a warrior]"

The link here for line position 5 is to hex 08 and a passive form of attraction - the warrior king as such where all come to serve with/under. The 'return' will attract unconditional admiration etc.

Thus the 8-ness of 24 is expressed in the form of 03, a new 'sprout' emerges.


Line 6
"A deceitful return [spiritual corruption - equivalent to no return]. Unfortunate. It possesses the seeds of disaster and ruin and attempting to complete this pretense (model/imitate - 'shih') will lead to total destruction." OR "A deceitful return. Unfortunate. Changing the ruler to the opposite position [get him to give way] is the right way ('tao') [for development]. [and thus he will lead. One's pretense/deceit is not the way]"

LIne position 6 is ruled by 23 and so the dynamics of pruning, getting back to basics in preparation for re-birth (or more so to make such easier). There is also a sense of being the final bastion of order prior to collapse and there is a suggestion in the line comments re this being 'false', it needs to 'give way' - there is a suggestion of holding on to a position thats needs to be pruned for further development to occur.

This leads us into the 'change' itself and the focus on hex 27 where the 23-ness of 24 is thus described by analogy to 27 where there is a sense of conditional return/beginning and overall covers issues of quality control re infrastructure

Thus in a 'return' or 'beginning' all of the old is removed/pruned despite an 'quality preferences' and so someone/thing refusing to budge (being rigid rather than flexible).

There are two forms of negation, analytical where we are "born again" and dialectical where we "keep the 'good' bits". The issue here is what is considered the 'good bits' where somone/something is trying to stay around when the focus is more on being 'born again' - the pruning needs to be 'total' but part of what is to be pruned is trying to avoid such (deceitful).

(simply put, how is pruning delt with in 24? through quality control of infrastructure(27) (since this IS a 'beginning' and so pre season not post season) with a preference to clearing the decks, being born again rather than allowing any 'good bits' to hang around (something pruning in its pure form DOES allow for, its purpose as such is to 'keep the good bits' - but here, with a 'true' beginning there are no 'good bits', all is fresh, new (bottom trigram of thunder includes a sense of clearing the air, freshness etc)


Chris.

 

[rosada]

Re-reading my last post on 24.6 I can barely understand the point I was trying to make, so I'm going to try agaiin. It's not that I'm seeing anything "wrong" with 24. Rather, it seems to me that if the hexagrams are in a particular order that is defining a universal journey, it seems as if we have come to place here where it is time to admit, recognize, who we really are. There seems to be a feeling about being on the "wrong" path, and the pull to Return to the right path, but then a feeling of uncertainty about what that "right" path would be and ultimately, with Noblehearted Return, the courage to just stand up and say This is who I am, warts and all. 24.6 then, seems to be what happens when one misses this chance, because one can't admit to making a mistake. But the real crucial thing here, I think, is there's a fear, a feeling that if The Other really knew us, we would be rejected, so an obstinancy, a keeping up a lie, even until death, refusing the last rites. The rebirth into 25. Innocence suggests the next life - or the next day - builds on the pattern we have established today. If we have been able to be honest with ourselves, then we recognize what we see in our new world, but if we have been in denial - "if one is not as he should be" - then we meet with "accidents", that aren't really accidents, but blind spots caused by our refusal to see the parts of ourselves that attracted such experiences?

 

[lightofreason]

.... The rebirth into 25. Innocence suggests the next life - or the next day - builds on the pattern we have established today.

IMHO I think the traditional sequence is perhaps leading you a little astray into taking part-for-whole meanings. The notion of innocence is a PART of the nature of 25 and covers disentanglment as its structural opposite (46) represents entanglement. INCLUDED in the sense of disentanglement is the preparedness to assert one' point of view to all - and that act of assertion can include making the assertion from a position of innocence... but it also includes standing up to assert one's point of view regardless consequences - something 'must be said' even though one is aware of consequences, they are ignored.

All odd-numbered hexagrams are the 'lead' element in the pairs of the traditional IC such that there is gap between 24-25 in that the pairings are 23-24, 25-26. The traditional sequence, reflecting as language, has a particular point of view overall that is different to the binary sequence where the focus is on structures, structural opposites etc. (and so the opposite of 23 is 43, the opposite of 24 is 44 and 23 pairs with 02 just as 43 pairs with 01)

if 23 represents dialectical negation (keep the good bits by pruning) and the notion of pruning, then 24 represents analytical negation (born again, wipe the slate clean).

As such the act of hexagram rotation brings out the 'begin/end', 'pure/mixed', dynamic but in reverse (24 begins, 23 ends by preparing for the next cycle; 24 is 'pure', analytical, 23 is mixed, dialectical.)

In 25,26 both cover holding firm to a belief but 25 is to one's own (individual) whereas 26 is to the collective traditions (group)

Note the subtle swap here of 25-26 (individual/group) vs 23-24 (group/individual)

NOW also note the ignoring of consequence in 25 is akin to the 'born again' nature of 24; IOW 25 'wipes the slate clean' (but more figuratively) to express one's point of view where the 'slate' contains all of those consequences and so entanglements - and this attitude is sourced in 24s focus on analytical negation but the vibe of 24-25 is not as strong as that of 23-24 and 25-26 - bringing out the pair focus where the link across pairs (23,24)--(25,26) is vague.

The octets of the traditional cover:

01,02 03,04 05,06 07,08
09,10 11,12 13,14 15,16
17,18 19,20 21,22 23,24
25,26 27,28 29,30 31,32
-----------------------------
33,34 35,36 37,38,39,40
41,42 43,44 45,46 47,48
49,50 51,52 53,54 55,56
57,58 59,60 61,62 63,64

Note the influences of the rotation of 23,24 and the rotations of the other pairs in that last pair column (i.e. 07,08 15,16 etc)

Then note the influences of the rotation of 25,26 and the rotations of the other pairs in THAT first pair column (i.,e. 01,02 09,10 17,18 etc)

Chris.

 

[lightofreason]

Rosada,

in the context of the traditional sequence you may like to focus on the 'zig-zag' form of interpretation (some of which you are already trying to deal with if but intuitively).

Rather than focus on the pairs we focus on the 'gaps' and in so doing come up with alternative pairings. The pattern is:

00 - 01
02 - 03
04 - 05
...
...
...
60 - 61
62 - 63
64 -

Each ROW is meaningful pair as is each diagonal from the right side of a row to the left side of the following row - this diagonal is the centre of rotations and formed the more traditional pairings (01,02 03,04 05,06).


Working around this thread's 24 perspective consider:

22 - 23
24 - 25
26 - 27

The rotations are 23-24, 25-26

the core meaning in 22 - 23 is on 'keeping the good bits' but more so making it all 'nice' - be it through beautifying or pruning (the latter being a form of beautyfying - pruning to look good in the future)

The core meaning in 24 - 25 is on wiping the slate clean.

The core meaning of the 23-24 pair (and so the rotation) is on the TWO types of negation we have in the rows (dialectical vs analytical)

26 - 27 covers issues of infrastructure, be it the old (26) or the new (27).
28 - 29 covers issues of containment.

The other pairing cover for example:

10 - 11 (balance, middle way)
12 - 13 (imbalance, a biased way)

11 -12 (forms of 'balance' - harmonising, neutralising)

etc etc etc These 'gap' pairings are valid but vague due to the gap. By skewing the sequence to give us the zig-zag we bring out more refinement in meanings.

The SAME method can be used for any sequence derived from self-referencing ;-)

Chris.

 

[Trojina]

I've known 24,6 more often than not simply informing one that it is too late.

I once asked about my ill partners chances of work and got 24,6 - he was simply to ill to go back to work. There was no mistake there its just the time had gone by for that.

If a soundtrack comes to mind for this line though its a Pink Floyd one, something like

"And when you look behind you
10 years have gone behind you
Noone told you when to run
You missed the starting gun"

Yes thats a familiar and sickening meaning of 24,6 also i think

 

[rosada]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Chris. Perhaps in your regular postings on each line here you could continue to include a comment on how one hexagram leads to the next.

I'm nursing a cold this week that probably would have been over by now if i had taken more care not to overdo just as health was returning. Now I feel I've missed the return and am in for another round of kleenex. I wonder, Trojan, if that was your friend's experience? Do you remember if he was just sick and couldn't go to work, or was he super sick because he hadn't taken care of himself earlier? Well anyway, I take comfort from debro's pointing out that even though it will be ten years, there will be a second chance.

BTW, I note in the paper this morning Senator Reid is saying Bush is "in denial" about Iraq. I wonder if we could say 24.6 is being in denial?

 

[Trojina]

. Now I feel I've missed the return and am in for another round of kleenex. I wonder, Trojan, if that was your friend's experience? Do you remember if he was just sick and couldn't go to work, or was he super sick because he hadn't taken care of himself earlier? ?

He wasn't well enough to return to work, he died a while later. Obviously though i did not forsee this at time of casting, but the time of his ever working again had passed. I wouldn't like to say this was because he 'hadn't taken care of himself' though. Illness comes to even fitness fanatics.

Hope you soon recover

 

[rosada]

Whoa, I thought you meant he was just having a bad hair day. Gives a whole new intensity to 24.6! And I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

Thanks for the good wishes, my shiffle seems quite trivial now!

 

[lightofreason]

...BTW, I note in the paper this morning Senator Reid is saying Bush is "in denial" about Iraq. I wonder if we could say 24.6 is being in denial?

Bush got it wrong. As such there is a need to wash one's hands of the whole thing, start again, wipe the slate clean etc (traits of 24 negation, analytical form), but Bush wants to keep what he sees as the 'good bits' since any wiping the slate clean includes wiping him 'clean' and that is an issue since it will make his presidency, and the whole republican support team, look crap.

The Democrats want full withdrawal, analytical negation; Bush is into pruning (dialectical negation) - he wants to save 'something' for the future - himself and his party most likely ;-) (but then his 'pals' are all oil people and so they dont want to lose access to all of the oil in Iraq)

The issue with 24.6 is trying to apply pruning to a core state focused on a clean slate to begin/re-begin; the focus is strong on issues on quality control of infrastructure and so 27.

Chris.

 

[hollis]

24 6

recently did an 'open' reading and got 24 6 as one of the lines. (reading was 24 to 37.)

just about had a nervous breakdown. since it was an 'open' reading, what the heck had i missed the return to. panic ensued for days. could have been any of the several catastrophes happening in my life. and who knows. i may not live to tell the tale, after hearing the story of trojan's friend. if you guys dont hear from me for a while, uh....

(open reading, right. i'll never do one of those again. note to self: NEVER give the YJ an open platform.)

 

[bruce_g]

recently did an 'open' reading and got 24 6 as one of the lines. (reading was 24 to 37.)

just about had a nervous breakdown. since it was an 'open' reading, what the heck had i missed the return to. panic ensued for days. could have been any of the several catastrophes happening in my life. and who knows. i may not live to tell the tale, after hearing the story of trojan's friend. if you guys dont hear from me for a while, uh....

(open reading, right. i'll never do one of those again. note to self: NEVER give the YJ an open platform.)

Seems pretty clear, but you're right, these sort of open-reading answers can sure play with our head.

I think it's saying that you may be trying to hard to resolve matters on your own, and currently lack the means to do that. Too much looking outside, not enough caring for what's inside. And too much second guessing yourself.

 

[rosada]

Chris, This is the first time I've seen you give a real life example using your method. I understand you so much better when you ground your ideas this way!

hollis, what do you mean you did an "open reading"? Are you saying you consulted the I Ching without a specific question? Like, "Tell me what I need to know now"?

 

[Trojina]

I see 24,6 as you've missed the possibility of returning in this cycle. To continue, (as you surely will) all the old must be cast off and a completely new cycle begun. This does look and often feel pretty unfortunate in a 23 kind of way - but is a fact of life. Also its good in a 'wipe the slate clean' way.

Guess its important to remember scale with this line - yes if you ask about a cold it could well indicate you missed the point where recovery was imminent and now have the whole cold over again - or with more complications rather.
If you asked about the banging noise in your car could mean time to get a new car.

Don't panic Hollis - maybe theres just something needs a complete new cycle rather than go on with the old ? Whats been your most pressing concern lately ? Maybe it refers to that.

Interestingly I also stay away from these 'open questions' cos for me its a shortcut to complete paranoia The other day i sat down perfectly happy and asked an open type question about my priorities in life and got 60,3, I then tried to figure out what limits I was ignoring - financial/emotional etc etc and after scabbling about trying to work out what it referred to by checking out each area with the Yi and still none the wiser, I decided open type questions can indeed 'mess with your head' as they could refer to anything at all. I prefer to stay with specific questions I think.

 

[hollis]

Seems pretty clear, but you're right, these sort of open-reading answers can sure play with our head.

I think it's saying that you may be trying to hard to resolve matters on your own, and currently lack the means to do that. Too much looking outside, not enough caring for what's inside. And too much second guessing yourself.

Thanks Bruce. Reassuring. I can work with that.

hollis, what do you mean you did an "open reading"? Are you saying you consulted the I Ching without a specific question? Like, "Tell me what I need to know now"?

Yes, exactly Rosada. I had just got the Carol Anthony book mentioned a short while ago in this forum, and was working within her system for a little. She consults without a question seeking the Sage wisdom. I had just gotten the book the night before, was rather overwhelmed by her take on the YJ. So in the spirit of her method, to be fair to it, I decided to ask for the Sage wisdom before asking anything else. Don't remember the exact phrasing, it was more a gesture, of openness, to what the Sage had to say. Panic ensued after getting the 24 line 6. So did frantic emails to a friend for help on the readings.

I see 24,6 as you've missed the possibility of returning in this cycle. To continue, (as you surely will) all the old must be cast off and a completely new cycle begun. This does look and often feel pretty unfortunate in a 23 kind of way - but is a fact of life. Also its good in a 'wipe the slate clean' way.

Guess its important to remember scale with this line - yes if you ask about a cold it could well indicate you missed the point where recovery was imminent and now have the whole cold over again - or with more complications rather.
If you asked about the banging noise in your car could mean time to get a new car.

Don't panic Hollis - maybe theres just something needs a complete new cycle rather than go on with the old ? Whats been your most pressing concern lately ? Maybe it refers to that.

Interestingly I also stay away from these 'open questions' cos for me its a shortcut to complete paranoia The other day i sat down perfectly happy and asked an open type question about my priorities in life and got 60,3, I then tried to figure out what limits I was ignoring - financial/emotional etc etc and after scabbling about trying to work out what it referred to by checking out each area with the Yi and still none the wiser, I decided open type questions can indeed 'mess with your head' as they could refer to anything at all. I prefer to stay with specific questions I think.

Thanks very much Trojan. Very helpful, very true, and yes, I see where the cycle has missed it's return. Your description of the cycle breaking down as it cranks to restart is very apt. And illuminating about the nature of returns, 24.

Simply, missed the return to my family, my tribe, inner circle. Putting what Lise discovers to use, about the resulting hexagram, 24 it's 37. Return, it's Family. (?)

Some people have a gift to understand tone in Yi readings, for these people, open readings may be useful. For me, open readings are best done with a context, as in "What do I need to know about X". In the Anthony method, as you are bringing something unconscious to light, it stands to reason that there is the probability of not understanding the reading. Her three coin method does NOT work for me. I am a person who needs to walk away from a reading, not try to pin it down. Pinning down a reading, using the three coin method, just does not work. for me. It leads to clinging to coins, and anxiety, and fervor about outcomes, and more questions and disharmony; not to the clarity that comes with a simple question from the heart with the YJ.

:bows:

 

[rosada]

I was just noticing that with 24.6 we now have covered all the lines that lead to 2.

23.6 - 2
7.2 - 2
15.3 - 2
16.4 - 2
8.5 - 2
24.1 - 2

Does that seem to signify anything as we are now on the cusp of Innocence?

 

[butterfly spider]

Dizzy is a word I use to describe 24.4 - feeling as if I am being taken along a road - and then returning back again. As Trojina said, there is a sense of sadness about this line - although I sometimes think it has to do with getting on the wrong train - getting your book and coffee out - and finding you have to get off at the next stop, sort of feeling.
Got it today about money - asking why I have none... which is more to do with my current situation - and got this line. Thought I was alright on this track - tht I was getting somewhere financially, but actually nope -

x