Memorizing the I Ching Hex.3

[heylise]

12 can sometimes be comforting, in the sense of "nothing can be done right now. So accept that".

When I get 39, I try to look at things in a new fresh way, because Yi is telling me that I am standing in my own way. Trying to move ahead in an uncreative stubborn way. That I have to turn around and see what is not logical.

And 3, after all that is what this thread is about.. oo, difficult!!

Lise

 

[rosada]

Interesting to note how hex.3 leads to 39 if you don't negotiate 3.1 appropriately. I mean, 3.1 one sounds like a little obstruction but if not negotiated properly it can become 39: Obstruction personified!

3.1
Hesitation and hindrance.
It furthers one to remain persevering.
It furthers one to appoint helpers.

Thus, if you meet a hindrance/obstruction, but don't give up and appoint a good helper, you'll be fine, because 3.1 changes to 8, which I take to mean you appointed just the right helpers.
But what if you don't? What if you didn't pause long enough to understand what was needed before choosing your help? Uh-oh, then it's 8.3, and "You hold together with the wrong people" and then 8.3 changes to 39 you are in Obstruction for sure. Interesting that 3.3, being lost without any guide, says something similar to 8.3. That is, when there is a hindrance, (3.1) no guide (3.3) or the wrong guide (8.3) both lead to 39 Obstruction.
Perhaps we could say then that 39 gives added instruction on how to handle 3.1. If 3.1 is about meeting a hindrance/obstruction and appointing a helper, perhaps to insure one finds the right helper, one ought first do as 39 advises and seek the error within, else the helper might turn out to be one's mirror image and thus just as lost as the seeker?

 

[bruce_g]

Ewald,

I hope that I (or others) don’t discourage you from continuing your thoughts on this and other threads. You do give important things to consider and reflect on. And I hope you don’t mind opposing views. To quote another old metaphor: as iron sharpens iron, so does one sharpen the other.

 

[ewald]

Hi Bruce - It's indeed not always easy to deal with opposing views, I am however aware of the "sharpening" effect. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[bruce_g]

I've been tinkering with that post so much I may have already erased that one thought that was useful.

And I had a gold star for ya! View attachment 60

 

[bruce_g]

Hi Bruce - It's indeed not always easy to deal with opposing views, I am however aware of the "sharpening" effect. Thanks for the encouragement.

I guess I'd ask, what's the alternative to opposing views?

 

[ewald]

Opposing views are a given here, but there are many alternatives in how to deal with them.

Having conflicts about them, in a quest for supremacy. Sweeping them under the table, in order to keep the peace. Cooperating towards a common view. Keeping your views to yourself, not speaking about them. Respecting everyone's view. Disposing of your own view, taking another one as authoritative. Using them as ideas for improving your own views. Not dealing with them, and leaving.

I'm sure there are many more.

 

[ewald]

In 3.1, I take the second sentence to mean "It is beneficial to persist staying put."
What is the difference between "persevering" and "remaining persevering?" I don't see much of a difference, it's both about perseverance. This is why Wilhelm's rendering of this sentence doesn't make sense to me.

The first sentence of 3.1 (磐 桓) is one of the most enigmatic to me in the Yijing. It's taken me quite a while to begin to understand it.
磐 is also there in 53.2. It can mean large rock, foundation stone, cliff, bluff / firm, stable, harbored, rooted.
桓 can mean soap nut tree (sapindus mukurossi) / grave post or pillar, posts to steady the coffin while lowering it / greatly, effectively.
Muller's CJKV-English Dictionary has for the two characters together To waver back and forth, but this entry is by a person who has made several entries of expressions from the Zhouyi into that dictionary, that I don't always agree with.

The meanings of these characters to me invoke an image of great stability, so "To waver back and forth" doesn't make sense to me. I have no idea how Wilhelm got to "Hesitation and hindrance." The second sentence in this line "beneficial to persist staying put" suggests that there already was a "staying put," so this reinforces my idea that this is about some kind of great stability that needs to be maintained.

 

[ewald]

I disagree with 12 having obstruction as main meaning. It can be the result though of worthlessness or something being wrong.
12, Pi: go against, oppose (heaven’s will), bad, obstruct, wicked, evil, clogged, stopped.

But on your website you have in hexagram 12 translated 否 with "obstruction" in all instances except the hexagram name.

 

[ewald]

Brad has 'impasse' for 39 , which I like a lot. And a whole bunch of meanings, of which obstruction is one. But when you look at ALL of them, and I think that should be done when you try to translate Chinese, then it comes closest to this hindrance thing.
Just a few I found myself: lame. crippled, feeble, slow, difficult, hard, trouble, danger, haughty, lofty.

Muller also has To suffer, have difficulty in functioning. Mandarintools also has unlucky for 蹇. When I decided on "trouble," I thought it was a perfect summary of all of these meanings.

 

[hilary]

(Way too late with this post, just a small aside not meant to sidetrack things. Rosada makes a distinction between 'sublime success' in W/B 1.0 and 2.0 as against merely 'supreme success' in 3.0. Bruce likes the distinction, too. Yes, it is a nice one, but sadly it is not in the Chinese, which uses the same words in all three. End aside.)

 

[bruce_g]

(Way too late with this post, just a small aside not meant to sidetrack things. Rosada makes a distinction between 'sublime success' in W/B 1.0 and 2.0 as against merely 'supreme success' in 3.0. Bruce likes the distinction, too. Yes, it is a nice one, but sadly it is not in the Chinese, which uses the same words in all three. End aside.)

It doesn't make me at all sad that it's not in Chinese, nor does it make me like the distinction any less. But thanks for pointing that out.

Ewald, I agree with your alternatives. I think they boil down to: agreement, apathy, aloofness and/or fear of voicing ones opinions.

 

[ewald]

This "sublime success," or "supreme success" or "works supreme success" is there in 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 14.0, 17.0, 18.0, 19.0, 25.0, 46.0, 49.0, and, like Hilary says, it's all the same Chinese: 元亨.

I started a thread a year or so ago about the first character, 元. I'm not convinced this is about supremacy or sublimity.
I have as possible meanings for it first / first day of the year, first year of an era / primary, beginning, origin, foundation, original, source / head, chief, eldest. (It also means Dollar nowadays.)

In all contexts 元 is in, I think "A source of" (good fortune or fulfilment) fits best. It is about changing a situation thus, that it becomes thriving. The situation is improved, not so that there is temporary good fortune or progress, but a lasting improvement. (I know some see this as the same as "sublime" or "supreme," but to me those seem just value judgments, that are not really describing the situation.)

 

[bruce_g]

I think hex. 1 is indeed seamless (circle), while hex. 2 is “the best we can do” (square). I think that was Wilhelm’s and Rosada’s point. It isn’t translated directly there, fair enough, but it is clearly suggested through the texts of 1 and 2.

 

[heylise]

But on your website you have in hexagram 12 translated 否 with "obstruction" in all instances except the hexagram name.

Ewald, you are completely right! I have obstruction there. There is a lot in my website, which I have to change, improve, correct, whatever. It is a process which is going on all the time. And one of the reasons why I love it. Sometimes people ask me, if I would not want it printed. No way! Then the fun would end.

I still don't know, which (other) word I can use in the lines. I took 'obstruction' out of the title, but in the lines it is difficult to find one, which is as useable in a practical way. Simply using 'no' is not really handy. Maybe 'clogged', which is kind of in between 'no' and 'obstruction'. 12.6 "temporarily clogged". Mhm. I do like "a relaxed no" for 12.5, but it narrows it too much down. So for the time being, I keep 'obstruction'.

Muller also has To suffer, have difficulty in functioning. Mandarintools also has unlucky for 蹇. When I decided on "trouble," I thought it was a perfect summary of all of these meanings.

My trouble with trouble is, that it defines the situation as being 'trouble', but I think the hexagram is about the way, how to deal with trouble, or even with situations which are not necessarily 'trouble'. There are many times, when things are lacking inspiration, joy or drive. Many people even have a habit of dealing their entire life with everything in a 'limping' way. They live but only half, they work, but half, they enjoy themselves – half. As if life is everywhere limited and narrow, but very often life itself isn't - it is only in the person. It is a pair with 40, where things are (or are made) open and free. In 39 things (or the querent) are dragging, and it gives the advice how to deal with that.

So in 12 things don't work, either in the situation or in the querent. How to solve that.. make an end to it, or accept it, or whatever else. A very black-white hexagram. In 39 no such clarity. Everything seems like covered with syrup, nothing goes smooth, but it does not entirely stop either.

Btw, I love this exchange. It inspires me to search again for better ways to render a character into English. Only when you are very definitely saying "this is how it is", I get an irresistible urge to go against it. I don't think Chinese has anything definite, everything is wide and multi-faceted. Which is what I love so much about it.

LiSe

 

[rosada]

Interesting this discussion on dealing with opposing points of view has cropped up here at Hex.3. I mean, that's sort of what hexagram 3 is all about, what happens when the opposite energies of yang and yin collide, and how should this potential be navigated?

The new idea (hex.1) energizing the old (hex.2) creates something never seen before and thus unrecognizable, confusing (hex 3). The inner hexagram (is that what you call it?) of 3 is 23. Splitting Apart. The original sublime vision split apart by the interjection of a new vision which is not yet actualized? Like all the pieces are there, but now they need to be arranged differently?
I think of the scene in the Apollo movie where the astronauts have to create some life saving air device out of the various equipment that was never intended for that purpose.

I'm seeing a little dialog developing with just the first lines:

Hex.1.1
Hidden dragon. Do not act.
"This universe is an electrical energy grid made up of hidden intentions and reactors. You don't understand how it's all interconnected so DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING."

Hex.2.1
Where there is hoarfrost underfoot,
Solid ice is not far off.
"Yeah, but if I don't do something soon I'm going to freeze to death here outside the grid."

Hex.3.1
Hesitation and hindrance.
"Hmmm...if I interject my point of view I may get hammered, but if I don't my ideas might just as well not exist. Damned if I do, damned if I don't...""
It furthers one to remain persevering.
"Well maybe I should just sit and watch for a little while longer"
It furthers one to appoint helpers.
"Where's Mikey? Hey Mikey, come over here and touch this wire..."

 

[philippa]

re: "trouble"

One agony I go through as a bilingual speaker is that the different languages bleed into each other as time goes by. I often have to look up the dictionary of one language to get the appropriate word in the other language. What I discover from using Mandarin tools (or any bilingual dictionary) is that the translation correspondence between Chinese and English (or even between any pair of languages) is very fuzzy. The translation process (not just a word-by-word translation) requires a lot of massaging to get the sense closest to the intended meaning.

Nevertheless, the discussion here on the near-synonyms of "trouble" is a lot of fun.

Philippa

 

[philippa]

The first sentence of 3.1 (磐 桓) ...
The meanings of these characters to me invoke an image of great stability.

Here I also agree with Ewald on the meaning of "stability." Ewald's description conjures up the image of a tree growing firming in between big rocks. In fact, I remember seeing many Chinese sculptures showing exactly that but I'm having trouble finding any such pictures online.

Anyhoo, to compare to WB's translation, Alfred Huang also translate this line as "lingering and considering." The "trouble" meaning is not expressed.

Philippa

 

[ewald]

Philippa - That's interesting that you interpret this as a tree growing firmly in between rocks. I had actually been focussing on the other meaning of that character, "grave post." In the text of Karcher that I have, he has "A large rock and a grave post."

I do like the image, it is invocative. I'm just not sure why this tree is sapindus mukurossi. All I could find about it is that its nuts can be used as soap, and that it has medicinal properties. A related species lives 70 years, which is long, but not uncommon for trees.

 

[rosada]

A nut tree? As in "a hard nut to crack"? Sounds alot like "Stuck between a rock and a hard place."

 

[rosada]

3.2
Difficulties pile up.
Horse and wagon part.
He is not a robber,
He wants to woo when the time comes.
The maiden is chaste,
She does not pledge herself.
Ten years - then she pledges herself.
---

Oh my, this must have been a doosey to translate!
What is the actual feeling behind 3.2? I get the image of an oily banker offering to give you an advance on your paycheck - the sence that sure, help is available now, but you'll be in hock forever.

 

[nicky_p]

I get the image of an oily banker offering to give you an advance on your paycheck - the sence that sure, help is available now, but you'll be in hock forever.

Hi Rosada,

I know what you mean about the feeling that if you give in and accept the easy way out of a whole set of difficulties then you're left with the feeling of owing at least part of yourself to someone. But I don't get the feeling that the judgement falls negatively on the helper - afterall they aren't a 'robber'. Something just doesn't feel right about the situation so you hold back. It may mean that it's more work and more difficult but better that than to give yourself away lightly to someone you don't know yet.

For example, say you're at work and have a really big job come in for a prestigious client. You also have a new apprentice starting on that day. It seems like the easiest option would be to share the extra workload with the new apprentice but you don't yet know the exact quality of their skills and so leave them to make the tea or something . It's not the fault of the apprentice - just that the situation means that you can't risk giving so much responsibility to someone so soon.

So, maybe the feeling is just, 'caution'?

Nicky

 

[jesed]

I know you have good intentions when you offer me your help.. I apreciate it, and maybe I would accept it later, but right now I need to be sure that accept your help is not a risk to my self-development and self-responsability.

 

[rosada]

Yes, this sounds more like what the hexagram is saying. Indeed, it specifically tells us the intentions are good, he is NOT a robber.

Sometimes a person trying to be of assistance takes over a project. If I ask my friend to teach me how to do something on the computer it usually results in him just doing the task for me. Then when he leaves I still don't know what to do and I'm 3.3 lost without my forester..

 

[rosada]

hexagram 3.3

3.3
Whoever hunts deer without the forester
Only loses his way in the forest.
The superior man understands the signs of the time
And prefers to desist.
To go on brings humiliation.

 

[ewald]

My rendering of 3.3 is almost completely different from Wilhelm's:

Being close to deer unexpectedly,
thinking about going into the midst of the woods.
The noble one is almost unlikely to stop.
Going on is inadequate.
​

I think this is about being tempted by a special opportunity to pursue it, however not being ready for it.

 

[rosada]

"Midway through the journey of our life,
"I found myself within a dark wood,
"for the right way had been lost."

-Dante

 

[rosada]

Hex 3.4

3.4
Horse and wagon part.
Strive for union.
To go brings good fortune.
Everything acts to further.

 

[rosada]

So what do we make of this line? Wilhelm gives us tips about the fourth position corresponding to the first position and thus the maiden now being courted by the suitor (which confuses me because I thought in line two, the suitor, line one, wasn't suitable and we were to wait for line five - whatever that means), but what is this all about Developement of Conciousness-wise? Seems like there is some of Field Guide to the Soul's Journey emerging here. Hexagram 1 and 2 give some sort of overview to the whole process. Hexagram one is a nice streight arrow developement from dragon underground, to emerging, to flapping his wings, to lift off, to flying, to (crash) landing. Hexagram two is not so obvious, but it seemst to discribe the dragon's journey in retrospect. First one realizes the ride is winding down, enjoys the free fall, tidies up loose ends, puts any remains out with the trash, and smiles content with a job well done - only to be disturbed at 2.6 by some new energy entering the scene wanting to start the cycle all over again. And it does, and so it goes. Okay, that's the big picture. Now with 3.0 we get the instructions for how to conciously enter, experience this cycle. First, 3.1, we don't even realize there is a cycle, we just know we are no longer asleep but we are not fully awake either. At this point we realize we need help/helpers. But 3.2 There isn't any suitable help available. Why not? Why on this earth isn't there help available as soon as we want it? Maybe I've misunderstood the meaning of these lines. Or maybe this is telling us that in our initial confusion we are unable to recognize help? Anyway, 3.3 does seem to be the dark night of the soul, alone without a guide. Insidentally, I came accross the above Dante quote when I opened a book "at random" yesterday, after putting in quite a bit of time brooding over 3.3. It is the opening line of his Divine Comedy, another book discribing the soul's journey. So now, is 3.4 about meeting one's guide? Or the struggle to reconnect the conscious mind - horse - with earthly experience - cart? Or, as The Portable Dragon suggests, is this when we team up with fellow seekers to share our stories - knowing that no one person has all the answers?

 

[martin]

I think that we (or our chariot, this could be our personality) are in line 4 temporarily disconnected from our drive or driving power (the horses), represented by the lower trigram thunder and especially the first yang line.

In other words, we don't feel much drive or motivation at the moment. Perhaps we are tired and somewhat discouraged because the journey has been difficult sofar and more problems are to be expected ahead.

But the advice is to reconnect with our driving power or drive and continue the journey.
A temporary stop (at an inn along the road to rest and feed ourselves and our horses? a good peptalk might also be welcome ) is okay but the adventure is not supposed to end here.