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Memorizing the I Ching Hexagram 8. Holding Together

rosada

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Hexagram 8. Pi / Holding Together (Union)

THE JUDGEMENT:
HOLDING TOGETHER brings good fortune.
Inquire of the oracle once again
Whether you possess sublimity, constancy, and
perseverance;
Then there is no blame.
Those who are uncertain gradually join.
Whosoever comes too late
Meets with misfortune.
 
L

lightofreason

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IC+ : with/from devotion (to another/others) comes control.

This is the hexagram for line position 5, as hexagram 07 is for line position 2. Combined we have hex 29, bringing out the containment/control issues covered in 07 and 08.

The infrastructue of 08 is described by analogy to prpperties of hexagram 42 - there is a sense of 'increase' of 'augementation' serving as infrastructure.

08 gets it nourishment from a source desribed by analogy to hexagram 46 - it feeds off getting more entangled, pushing upwards. (the passive attraction of 08 reflects its representation of the court/king - people come to the court, the court usually does not go to them - the devotion to the king and the attaction reflects the control element present (water in top position))

On the outside 08 presents, looks like, properties described by analogy to hexagram 37 - a 'family' (rigid, hierarchic, structure that elicits tension release)

Look inside and it is described by analogy to hexagram 40 - relaxed structure. (as we have when we move into the family, past its exterior and do experience tension release)

etc etc etc

Chris.
 

rosada

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Very interesting, Chris! I can understand your getting 29 out of 07 and 08, but I don't see how 08 is "analogous" to 42,46, 37 or 40. Can you discribe how that works?
 

rosada

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8.0

THE IMAGE

On the earth is water:
The image of HOLDING TOGETHER.
Thus the kings of antiquity
Bestowed the different states as fiefs
And cultivated friendly relations
With the feudal lords.
 
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lightofreason

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rosada said:
Very interesting, Chris! I can understand your getting 29 out of 07 and 08, but I don't see how 08 is "analogous" to 42,46, 37 or 40. Can you discribe how that works?

tsk tsk, you have not been reading the IC+ XOR material!?

for a focus on the IC read:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html

For as focus on XOR from self-referencing in general see:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/properties.html

TO summarise it all in the context of hexagram 08 - the method used to create hexagrams from yin/yang is called recursion or self-referencing - what is recursed is the yin/yang dichotomy to 6 levels of recursion (and so 2^6 hexagrams = 64)

The METHODOLOGY actually encodes the WHOLE in all PARTS such that a hexagram is interpretable as the whole with some special configuration applied to bring out a biase in expression - e.g. hexagram 08. This being the case, ALL of the other hexagrams are 'in' 08 by way of serving as describing the whole. Thus 08 has its unique nature as well as finer details described by analogy to all other hexagrams.

For example, the 27-ness of 08 is where we use hexagram 27 as the 'key' to unlock a description of hexagram 08s infrastructure in that 27 covers this issue of infrastructure. The method used to extract the '27-ness' is found to be using XOR of hexagrams - here we XOR 27 with 08 and that gives us the description of 08 in the form of a description of how it expresses infrastructure; and it does this through analogy to hexagram 42. (XOR looks like this:

000010 (08)
100001 (27)
-------- XOR
100011 (42 - augmenting) )

As 42 is the 27-ness of 08, so it is also the 08-ness of 27. IOW the XOR operator is symmetric and so works both ways.

These are all GENERAL in meaning, vague etc due to them having their origins in the 'universal' method of self-referencing.

The other hexagrams I used were to derive:

The source of nourishment of a hexagram where we XOR the hexagram with hexagram 48 - the well, the foundation setter. here we get 46.

The 'outside' look of a hexagram where we XOR the hexagram with hexagram 22 - the facade, external 'enhancments' that serve to distract focus from looking 'inside'. here we get 37.

The 'inside' look of a hexagram where we XOR the hexagram with hexagram 47 - the 'forced enclosure' with a focus on internal dynamics. Here we get 40.

I just gave a few examples, but for each hexagram, all 64 can serve as sources of analogy in describing the hexagram as a whole. I have vaguely summarised these in my web pages for each hexagram - e.g. for hex 08 we have:

00 :: (02) : What is this hexagrams's potential form? :: 8
01 :: (24) : How does this hexagram 'start', express 'beginning'? :: 3
02 :: (07) : How does this hexagram express uniformity, establishment of? :: 29
03 :: (19) : How does this hexagram express approaching the 'high'; defer to the 'low'? :: 60
04 :: (15) : How does this hexagram level things out, keep words close to facts? :: 39
05 :: (36) : How does this hexagram protect its 'light' when not its time? :: 63
06 :: (46) : How does this hexagram become more entangled with something/someone? :: 48
07 :: (11) : How does this hexagram balance/harmonise, mediate? :: 5
08 :: (16) : How does this hexagram express foresight/planning? :: 45
09 :: (51) : How does this hexagram express surprise, enlightenment, shock? :: 17
10 :: (40) : How does this hexagram express tension release through relaxing structure? :: 47
11 :: (54) : How does this hexagram expend early energy, imaturity? :: 58
12 :: (62) : How does this hexagram express overacting to establish unconditional loyalty? :: 31
13 :: (55) : How does this hexagram deal with abundance/overflowing? :: 49
14 :: (32) : How does this hexagram express commitment? :: 28
15 :: (34) : How does this hexagram actively invigorate others? :: 43
16 :: (08) : How does this hexagram passively attract? :: 2
17 :: (03) : How does this hexagram 'sprout'? :: 24
18 :: (29) : How does this hexagram assert containment/control? :: 7
19 :: (60) : How does this hexagram standardise? :: 19
20 :: (39) : How does this hexagram obstruct, go against, stand up to, the flow? :: 15
21 :: (63) : How does this hexagram complete, 'get it right'? :: 36
22 :: (48) : Where does this hexagram get its nutrition, what sustains it, keeps it going? :: 46
23 :: (05) : How does this hexagram wait for opportunity to come? :: 11
24 :: (45) : How does this hexagram celebrate its 'faith'? :: 16
25 :: (17) : How does this hexagram find a faith? What is its faith? :: 51
26 :: (47) : How does this hexagram integrate with the context, be it by choice or otherwise? :: 40
27 :: (58) : How does this hexagram express itself intensely, self-reflect? :: 54
28 :: (31) : How does this hexagram 'woo', express restrained enticement? :: 62
29 :: (49) : How does this hexagram reveal, unmask? :: 55
30 :: (28) : How does this hexagram express excess, go beyond what is required? :: 32
31 :: (43) : How does this hexagram 'seed', spread the word? :: 34
32 :: (23) : How does this hexagram 'housekeep', clear chaff to bring out the wheat? :: 20
33 :: (27) : What is the basic, skelatal form of this hexagram, The mud from which it has emerged? :: 42
34 :: (04) : How does this hexagram learn social skills? :: 59
35 :: (41) : How does this hexagram achieve clarity, concentration, distillation? :: 61
36 :: (52) : How does this hexagram express blocking, discernment? :: 53
37 :: (22) : What does this hexagram look like, how does it present itself to the outside? :: 37
38 :: (18) : How does this hexagram correct corruption, express that correction? :: 57
39 :: (26) : How does this hexagram express 'holding firm' to traditions? :: 9
40 :: (35) : How does this hexagram bring something into the 'light'? :: 12
41 :: (21) : How does this hexagram resolve problems? :: 25
42 :: (64) : How does this hexagram remain 'open', mis-sequence? :: 6
43 :: (38) : How does this hexagram 'mirror', deal with opposition? :: 10
44 :: (56) : How does this hexagram demonstrate conditional loyalty; loyalty at a distance? :: 33
45 :: (30) : How does this hexagram express guidance/direction setting? :: 13
46 :: (50) : How does this hexagram express conversion of the raw to the cooked, transformation? :: 44
47 :: (14) : How does this hexagram manage from the centre? Direct operations? Push ideology? :: 1
48 :: (20) : How does this hexagram elicit admiration and so invigorate others passively? :: 23
49 :: (42) : How does this hexagram reflect augmentation? :: 27
50 :: (59) : How does this hexagram make things clear, dispell illusions? lift the fog? :: 4
51 :: (61) : How does this hexagram express empathy? yielding, soft core, hard exterior? :: 41
52 :: (53) : How does this hexagram express gradual development, maturity? :: 52
53 :: (37) : How does this hexagram reflect rigid structure as a form of tension release? :: 22
54 :: (57) : How does this hexagram cultivate and become influencial? :: 18
55 :: (09) : How does this hexagram express making small gains to be noticed? :: 26
56 :: (12) : How does this hexagram neutralise attacks on its core beliefs? :: 35
57 :: (25) : How does this hexagram stand up to say its piece, ignoring consequences, disentangle? :: 21
58 :: (06) : How does this hexagram compromise, meet half way? :: 64
59 :: (10) : How does this hexagram traverse a path carefully? :: 38
60 :: (33) : How does this hexagram draw-in its enemies, competitively entice? :: 56
61 :: (13) : How does this hexagram express association with the likeminded? :: 30
62 :: (44) : How does this hexagram persuade/seduce? :: 50
63 :: (01) : How does this hexagram express singlemindedness, competitiveness? :: 14

This is all GENERAL and so LOCAL conditions will add 'colour' etc. This work comes out of consideration on how our brains derive meaning and deals with paradox. XOR makes a major contribution to those dealings etc and when we apply the method to the IC out pops all of this detail for further consideration - something NOT covered in the 'traditional', 10th century BC material ;-) (these tables appear in my second hexagram page e.g. for 08 we have http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/010000.html as the first page - click on the hexagram image to go to the second page, OR put an 'x' at the front of the hexagram file name in the URL - thus the above link becomes

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/x010000.html

For on going, and so draft work, on XOR pages see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icspectrums.html

Simply put, we can get the IC to describe itself but in GENERAL.

This is, IMHO, a major contribution to understanding the IC - but the traditionalists will have 'issues' with it - and that is understandable ;-)

Chris.
 
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rosada

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Thanks, Chris. I just asked the I Ching to discribe your work and received 26.1.3.5>7.
26. Acquainting self with the many sayings of antiquity>
07. And getting them all in good marching order!:)

Anyway, back to 8.0 and Holding Together...
Anyone have any thoughts on the significance of 7.6 and the Image of 8.0 both containing references to the great prince founding states and vesting families with fiefs in 7.6 and the kings of antiquity bestowing the different state as fiefs and cultivating friendly relations in 8.0?
 
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rosada

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8.1
Hold to him in truth and loyalty;
This is without blame.
Truth, like a full earthen bowl;
Thus in the end
Good fortune comes from without.
 

rosada

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Some other versions of this line...

...let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth (1John 3:18)

A plain cup, overflowing with sincerity.
When you meet others for the first time, you may feel lonely and insecure. With simple, pure-hearted sincerity you will attract the others to you. (I Ching Made Easy)

A mistake is not made if an alliance is formed with trustworthy people. When sincerity fills a vessel, there will be unexpected good fortune. King Wen's success in forming alliances was due to his honest intentions, good will, and genuine concern for the welfare of the people. Good things happen to good people. (Idiot's Guide to the I Ching)

You are just beginning and stand alone. The utmost importance is placed in being sincere, which will bring you good fortune from an unexpected source. Holding hidden devious motives brings misfortune. (The I Ching - Guidance from the Book of Changes)

If you are honest with yourself, you cannot be dishonest with others. No worthwhile relationship has ever been based on personal dishonesty, or ever will be. When you speak, speak from the heart. In this way you set up a chain of good karma. (The I Ching on Love)
 
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lightofreason

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IC+

Line 1
"To be capable of unity requires sincerity. This may be all one has at the start."

"With/from uniting comes dificult beginnings (sprouting)"
 

frank_r

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in 8 there is water on top of earth, that's also when you look to the king wen and fu shi sequence. On the lowest point where our awarness is the most yin. Trigram earth is the power of pre haeven and water the one of later heaven. So in 8 we become aware of our deepest powers and fears. It's like in winter when we find our most innner light.
 
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lightofreason

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frank_r said:
in 8 there is water on top of earth, that's also when you look to the king wen and fu shi sequence. On the lowest point where our awarness is the most yin. Trigram earth is the power of pre haeven and water the one of later heaven. So in 8 we become aware of our deepest powers and fears. It's like in winter when we find our most innner light.

hhmmm.... from the binary sequence the elements of the pairs etc serve each other - thus 08 and 20 share the same space other than the top line. The generic focus for the pair covers 'passive' admiration and its motivational factor.

08 is unconditional (devotion to the king/court elicits control) whereas 20 is conditional (and so a particular individual, rather than an 'office', is the source of admiration - standing out from the crowd but no more - being seen elicits admiration.)

That said, the negative forrm of 20 is being made an example of - and so conditional 'control' vs the unconditional form of 08.

The analogy to seasons reflects the 'dark' form of earth rather than its 'light' form - and emotionally the 'dark' form of earth covers fear as water covers rejection and wind covers the anticipation of wrong doing. Exploiting the negative to make it positive turns earth into devotion to others (and so protection in a group t odel with the fear), and it turns wind into cultivation (expecting of 'right' doing) as water covers rejecting to protect rather than being rejected.

Given the dark side, so 08 reads emotionally as "with/from fear comes rejection"

The light side is thus "with/from devotion to another/others comes protection"

The reject/protect nature of water is in the bounding element that differentiates 'them' from 'us' where the boundary serves to protect by contracting, tightening.

Chris.
 

rosada

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8.2
Hold to him inwardly
Perseverance brings good fortune.
 

rosada

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Other versions...

8.2
Instinctively seeking union.
Auspicious
If you keep to your course.

Respond naturally to the desires of others. Do not fawn on them, trying to anticipate their desires. (I Ching A New Interpretation for Modern Times)

8.2
If you are true to yourself under all circumstances, you will automatically attract the right friends. Do not be concerned about whether or not other people approve of you. If you allow yourself to be influenced by such considerations, you will lose your dignity and self respect. (The Everyday I Ching)

8.2
Someone will ask a favor of you. It should not be difficult to fulfill. (I Ching Family Guidance)

8.2
Unity from within oneself bodes well. (The I Ching - An illustrated Guide to the Chinese Art of Divination)
 
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jte

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Inwardly. It's not outwardly. That comes later. In 8.1 the feelings were just coming out, now they've settled/stabalized, but circumstances still aren't right for them to be acted on.

- Jeff
 
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lightofreason

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IC+
Line 2
"The desire for unity must come from the heart not from the mind, as may be found in an opportunist."

with/from uniting comes containment/control
 

rosada

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My neighbor, who is 2 and a half, is just learning to talk. Sometimes I can feel him so strongly in my heart. Yesterday I found a favorite toy of his in my yard. I could feel him wanting it. I took it to him. He look streight into my eyes and beamed me a smile that said, "Yep, you got my message!" I wonder if we'll be able to keep this inner link even after he's able to communicate through words?
 

Trojina

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lightofreason said:
Given the dark side, so 08 reads emotionally as "with/from fear comes rejection"

The light side is thus "with/from devotion to another/others comes protection"

The reject/protect nature of water is in the bounding element that differentiates 'them' from 'us' where the boundary serves to protect by contracting, tightening.

Chris.

Mmm interesting to consider the dark side of 8 as fear creating rejection - if thats whats meant ?
 

rosada

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8.3
You hold together with the wrong people.
 

ewald

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8.3 - But what are wrong people?

比 之 匪 人 。

The character 匪 means it is not, no, not / rebel, bandit, vagabond. It is there a lot of times in the Shijing. I've found that in all instances that I checked where it meant something like "not," always "is not" or "it is not" could be read. So if "is not" or "it is not" cannot be replaced for "no" or "not," this is probably not the correct translation, and the meaning rebel is much more likely.

In this context "is not people" or "it is not people" doesn't make sense, so in my view 匪人 can't mean something like "none-people" or "none-person." This is why I translate it with "rebelling person" (similarly in 12.0, btw).
Associating with a rebelling person.
I take it to mean that one is associating with someone who is opposing what one wants.

I find "wrong people" uncharacteristic for the Yi. It doesn't describe clearly enough what the situation is. It is just a value judgment, without clarity.
 

rosada

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I see "wrong people" as people who are wrong at that moment. For example, if business matters have been intruding into personal life, the seeker is advised to make time for loved ones. Perhaps "bandit" could mean someone who steals your time.
 
L

lightofreason

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IC+ Line 3
"There are times when we attract the wrong people. Be sociable but not intimate."
The unconditional passive attraction of 08 can be a problem with its unconditional focus. Thus - with/from uniting (08) comes obstructing (39). (go with the flow, go against the flow (stand up to))

The dark' emotional form is complex - 08 is fear + rejection out of which comes 39 that is grief/sadness + rejection.
 
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rosada

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8.4
Hold to him outwardly also.
Perseverance brings
good fortune.
 

ewald

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Not sure why Wilhelm includes the word "also" in 8.4. There is no character in the Chinese text that means something like that.
 
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lightofreason

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IC+ Line 4
"One's firm relationship with outside people is tested. A favourable result." In ordering the unfamiliar, in uniting things, setting a sense of 'belonging', one must possess the unfamilar, encapsulate it, and through firm actions ensure all you get into the group is the 'wheat'. This action will be to one's advantage.

With/from uniting (08) comes congregating (45)

The emotion aspect for 45 is with/from fear comes joy (joining a collective (outside people, unfamiliar) acts as a sanctuary)
 

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Joining with people outside puts your own ideas/emotions in the perspective of a bigger gathering and bigger cause.
 

jte

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Outwardly. So now the time for actions, not just thoughts and feelings, has come.

- Jeff
 

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I see 8.2 as associating with people from within, so in a kind of intimate way, as one deals with friends.
8.4 I see as not being intimate, as one deals with people one knows only superficially.
 

rosada

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8.5
Manefestation of holding together.
In the hunt the king uses beaters on three sides only.
And foregoes game that runs off in frount.
The citizens need no warning.
Good fortune.
 
L

lightofreason

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IC+ Line 5
"A wise and receptive [trusting] ruler. Those who come and are suited stay. Those who wish to, can leave. These options are controlled by the people rather than the ruler."

with/from unifying (08) comes total trust in another/others (02)
 

jte

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So who is this great ruler, so worthy of union, but who accepts those who come of their own free will and lets others go their own way?

Who undertakes campaigns so wisely in 7? Who contends so successfully in 6? Who waits for his feast in 5? In 3 he's wise enough to know his limits, and he's simple and willing to learn in 4? Radiant in his restfulness in 2 and a flying dragon in 1...

Who is this?

- Jeff
 

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