Metaphorical or Literal/Just 'in my dreams'?

[TygerChild]

Ok.
The trillionth relationship question on this site:

How can our deep connection be reactivated and nourished in real time?

Response of I-Ching: 17.3>49 i.e. FOLLOWING > RADICAL CHANGE

line 3: Release the small and unworthy so that you can find what is of great value to you and others.Be firm with your decision to ally with the great/Your better self is starting to gain the upper hand. If you no longer give the inadvisable and impulsive a chance, your luck will definitely change/ He belongs to the adult and loses the boy. By following the former, he gains what he desires....It is desirable to make no move, but to remain determined.../A man must part company with the inferior and superficial..but in his heart he will feel satisfied because he will find what he seeks and needs for the development of his personality. The important thing is to remain firm. He must know what he wants and not be led astray by momentary inclinations.....

Oh, God, why do I always have to be 'good' to get a good reading? when all the time what I'm really needing and looking for is.........Unconditional Love. ?

Well, moving on from such an unreasonable demand.....

Will it be the case, if I followed this obviously admirable advice, that the deep connection would indeed be reactivated and nourished in real time? Or could the reading simply be indicating that my psyche will rise to a new level, and on that lofty height I will not be interested in that human relationship and so will be released from my desires for its good health and duration in real time?

What is it that the I Ching is referring to here? Are things to be understood metaphorically or literally?

Any guidance on detail and objective reality would be welcome!

Thank you.......?

 

[Apech7]

I think the I Ching may be referring to your partner as both and adult and a boy. And that you need to appeal/ focus on the man not the boy in him. This is the way to grow a deep and mature relationship. Some kind of radical change is also implied. So maybe you need to do completely new things together in order to refresh the feelings involved.

 

[moss elk]

17.3 is about growing up, or letting go of someone immature or some immature idea within you.
49 is about a big change, a self metamorphosis, changing the way you are doing something.


what do you think it is saying?

 

[sooo]

I do not interpret 17.3 this way. This is a cyclic wheel. The young starts off as impulsive, spontaneous, foolishly creative, intuitive and not a little bit silly. By losing this, one becomes mature, dependable, and a predictable stuffed shirt. Until one sheds the old shirt and reveals the reborn young child. Is this not the way a relationship remains vital and self-renewing? Yes, maturity is important, and there's a time for it, but if it remains fixed and finished, the relationship becomes traditional and unexciting. Revolution is something cyclic not something static, once and for all. So be the young child when it's time, be impulsive and spontaneous, but also be responsible and reliable when the time calls for it. Enjoy both a stable relationship but don't lose the spontaneity and fun. Following the way isn't like following a routine or always the expected. Times change and with them, their demands (61). I don't know about winning unconditional love - I personally don't believe in that on a personal level - but I do believe in revitalized love, renewed loved, revolutionized love, and the seasons of love.

If you want to settle down, then be mature and reliable, not jumping all around with ants in the pants. Settle down. But I don't read where this is intended to be a static condition, particularly not in a hexagram which is about seasonal cycles of change.

 

[ginnie]

"It is advisable to make no move but to remain determined." I think the I Ching is reflecting you and your ideals back to you so that you can examine them. You want unconditional love and that indicates that you are "leaving lowliness behind." There is nothing impossible about unconditional love. It is quite achievable.

 

[sooo]

"It is advisable to make no move but to remain determined." I think the I Ching is reflecting you and your ideals back to you so that you can examine them. You want unconditional love and that indicates that you are "leaving lowliness behind." There is nothing impossible about unconditional love. It is quite achievable.

Achievable? I can't for the life of me think of why someone would wish to achieve a love that is unconditional from another human being, unless they are a masochist or a mother who spoils they're child rotten, regardless of what kind of human they are. I mean, it sounds lovely, but it's really sick when considering what unconditional could actually entail. If you're speaking of a perfect lover, say for example, God's love or some such, yes, but humans are not perfect, and to love in spite of being abused in any way, that is not love, that is self loathing, as I see it. That is not an example of a mature man or woman, and even most children know better than to love someone who hurts them intentionally and repeatedly. That would be more of an unconditional enabler. There are plenty of those.

 

[ginnie]

Wisewoman didn't say her friend was abusive. I don't know how that idea crept in. I was just saying that I think the I Ching is reflecting back to her her feelings about unconditional love. To love unconditionally is to highlight all the great things about our friend and refuse to dwell on their flaws and faults, which everybody has. I think we all may be not understanding the same things when we use the word "unconditional love."

 

[sooo]

Ginnie, I usually respect your thoughts but I'm on another page entirely on this matter. I wasn't speaking to anyone's relationship in particular. My comment spoke to the entire concept of loving someone unconditionally, which I do not consider to be loving but enabling. I don't think you're considering the breadth of that word, unconditional. I will love him/her regardless of the kind of person they are, regardless of their addictions, their abusive or psychopathic behavior, their criminal activities, their justifications, etc. That, to me, is not love at all, it's enabling, which makes love something sick. I view healthy love as something which is exchanged equally, give and receive equally, and which is very conditional upon the character of the loved one.

Again, I'm not speaking of agape type love but the kind of love from a person to a person in a personal, and therefore conditional, relationship. If someone offers unconditional love to me, I wouldn't trust that person nor what they call love. I'd want someone to love me for who I am, not just because they need an unconditional love object. And I could never love someone regardless of who they are, other than in an agape way, and I'm hardly even capable of loving another person that way unconditionally. I could love a rock or a tree that way, but even a cat or dog would have to be lovable before I could love them.

I think unconditional love sounds lovely, as I said, but that's as far as it goes for me. First, I'd have to respect a person before I could love them, and respect is certainly conditional.

 

[moss elk]

"The young starts off as impulsive, spontaneous, foolishly creative, intuitive and not a little bit silly. By losing this, one becomes mature, dependable, and a predictable stuffed shirt."

Impulsive would be the only thing I think one has to lose to mature.
the other attributes; spontaneous, foolishly creative, intuitive, and a bit silly can certainly exist in a mature developed person. The bad thing with impulsiveness is, when one gives it free reign, one often doesn't know what kind of energy is actually being expressed until it comes and you can see it. (Surprise! Sometimes followed by "oops, that was rather F'd up by me now wasnt it?)

To embrace impulsiveness is to Enable hidden forces (our shadows) that are often....
shall we say "f'd up" ?

 

[TygerChild]

Hex 17.3>49

Maybe I could clarify.

In my studies of psychology when I was in teacher training, I came across the idea of 'good enough mother'. Now for me that simply means a basic acceptance the child for who she or he is. If not actually 'unconditional love' in any mystical absolute sense, it is as near most of us as get to it as humans perhaps.
For many individuals that basic need was not met. Their development can be disturbed, arrested, or whatever term you want to use as a result.
And until those human beings are able to experience a minimal experience of this kind of acceptance,
they may find it very hard to make a normal or conventional way through their lives.....

As a teenager I experienced in a more absolute, mystical sense, Unconditional love ---thereby hangs a tale--but I never experienced 'good enough mothering'.

Hence not only is my personality development rather skew-whiff from a human developmental point of view, it has also remained Unintegrated because of lack of bringing together of different strands of growth i.e. human and if you like, something a bit more beyond......

Presentation of my 'self' as a result of all this,-- and a catalogue of chaotic or/and abusive experiences along the way triggered by trying to find a way through all this--- has been incomplete, confusing and confused.. and rather 'split' resulting in enormous problems with communication etc. (despite some level of eloquence).

Our environment/relationships mirror us. Imagine.

 

[sooo]

Hex 17.3>49

Maybe I could clarify.

In my studies of psychology when I was in teacher training, I came across the idea of 'good enough mother'. Now for me that simply means a basic acceptance the child for who she or he is. If not actually 'unconditional love' in any mystical absolute sense, it is as near most of us as get to it as humans perhaps.
For many individuals that basic need was not met. Their development can be disturbed, arrested, or whatever term you want to use as a result.
And until those human beings are able to experience a minimal experience of this kind of acceptance,
they may find it very hard to make a normal or conventional way through their lives.....

As a teenager I experienced in a more absolute, mystical sense, Unconditional love ---thereby hangs a tale--but I never experienced 'good enough mothering'.

Hence not only is my personality development rather skew-whiff from a human developmental point of view, it has also remained Unintegrated because of lack of bringing together of different strands of growth i.e. human and if you like, something a bit more beyond......

Presentation of my 'self' as a result of all this,-- and a catalogue of chaotic or/and abusive experiences along the way triggered by trying to find a way through all this--- has been incomplete, confusing and confused.. and rather 'split' resulting in enormous problems with communication etc. (despite some level of eloquence).

Our environment/relationships mirror us. Imagine.

Thanks for coming back to your thread with your input.

I relate very well to the experience as you describe it, I think. That is, my own mother (who is currently hospitalized and may not make it) was never motherly in the sense that we typically associate motherly love (though I don't equate that with the word unconditional), and I found this embracing love in ether-realms, such as my love affair with Kuan Yin, with God in various forms, with nature, and with (of all things) dogs. But even my dog, the love of my later life, had a lovable character. I've known dogs who were born out of extreme inbreeding that were nothing but a mess and a pain in the ass. Those dogs I did not love. However, with Kuan Yin, I could project all of my idealism into her, the result being a form of agape love. In a way she was a surrogate for all my mother wasn't. Yet I still loved my mother for who she was and is, because there were still lovable qualities she possessed. But unconditional? No. I could love what there was to love but not what there wasn't to love, therefore my love is conditional and limited. My love of Kuan Yin has no limits and is unconditional, but that is not love of another person, that is love of my own ideals of what is lovable. It is entirely unrealistic to expect that from another human being, or to have the capacity to be so perfect as to give perfect love.

 

[sooo]

"The young starts off as impulsive, spontaneous, foolishly creative, intuitive and not a little bit silly. By losing this, one becomes mature, dependable, and a predictable stuffed shirt."

Impulsive would be the only thing I think one has to lose to mature.
the other attributes; spontaneous, foolishly creative, intuitive, and a bit silly can certainly exist in a mature developed person. The bad thing with impulsiveness is, when one gives it free reign, one often doesn't know what kind of energy is actually being expressed until it comes and you can see it. (Surprise! Sometimes followed by "oops, that was rather F'd up by me now wasnt it?)

To embrace impulsiveness is to Enable hidden forces (our shadows) that are often....
shall we say "f'd up" ?

Impulsiveness is responsible for some of man's greatest discoveries and revelations. It is interchangeable with intuitive reflex. My best song was written while I was walking from room A to room C, and it hit me while passing through room B, where I grabbed a pencil, pad and guitar and wrote impulsively, as quickly as I could, because had I waited for maturity to reason it out, it would have flown out the window. I find it rather sad that you equate this spontaneity necessarily to something dark and destructive. But that's your prerogative.

Of course all those attributes you've mentioned can exist in a mature person. That was precisely my point. One need not permanently cast out the child simply because they also possess mature qualities. There is a time, a season for each. These absolute and final value judgments reflected in these change lines are not intended for all times, they are intended for a season of change and circumstance when they are fruitful.

 

[TygerChild]

Hex 17.3>49

When I referred to an experience of unconditional love I am talking of a mystical/transpersonal thing that happened - no via any human relationship but when I was alone as a teenager in my bedroom! That is why the feeling of total acceptance, total innocence, light, clarity, wonder, beauty, freedom......coming in that way caused me to come to an awareness that skewed my development over all -- even though it was obviously an extremely precious event.
The disparity between that 'knowing', and the realism of 'human' dysfunction of the mothering I experienced left me with an knowledge of one ideal, but on a human level something seriously amiss. it left me feeling extremely lonely, misunderstood and unable ever to feel properly earthed...
Sorry if this isn't making much sense.

 

[sooo]

Hex 17.3>49

When I referred to an experience of unconditional love I am talking of a mystical/transpersonal thing that happened - no via any human relationship but when I was alone as a teenager in my bedroom! That is why the feeling of total acceptance, total innocence, light, clarity, wonder, beauty, freedom......coming in that way caused me to come to an awareness that skewed my development over all -- even though it was obviously an extremely precious event.
The disparity between that 'knowing', and the realism of 'human' dysfunction of the mothering I experienced left me with an knowledge of one ideal, but on a human level something seriously amiss. it left me feeling extremely lonely, misunderstood and unable ever to feel properly earthed...
Sorry if this isn't making much sense.

Oh, you're making total sense to me. We're singing the same tune, darlin'.

 

[moss elk]

Hey sooo,

Language is a funny thing ain't it?
A word means one thing to one person, something else to another.

My understanding of impulsive includes the negative connotation like this one:

Impulsiviness ..a tendency to act on a whim, displaying behavior characterized by little or no forethought, reflection, or consideration of the consequences Impulsive actions typically are "poorly conceived, prematurely expressed, unduly risky, or*inappropriate*to the situation that often result in undesirable consequences,"

I think you may associate the word with spontenaity, intuition, and inspiration.

I play gee tar too. Do you prefer a pick or fingerstyle? (Im a finger noodler)

 

[moss elk]

I forgot to mention. My niece got 17.3 when she asked how should could persue her dream of becoming a veterinarian.

Background: she stays up all night drinking a dozen or so cans of beer and hangs out with people of questionable character. (Who get drunk and beat each other up, oh and one of them likes to touch people without permission.)

So, again i think it is about parting with someone or something immature.

 

[ginnie]

My comment spoke to the entire concept of loving someone unconditionally, which I do not consider to be loving but enabling.

I think we do differ on this, So.

When I met my husband, he was a smoker and so was I. I don't remember him ever pressuring me to quit, but he joined Nicotine Anonymous and became a group leader. I attended his group and I attended other groups, too. He was successful in quitting and later I quit, too, when I decided to. You could say we were both addicts but nowadays we are both smoke-free and neither of us has residual cravings. There is something to be said for toleration and acceptance as providing a ground for sheltering what is best in ourselves. It's as if unconditional love creates a space in which people can grow. Yet I know that there are types of people I find to be 'beyond the pale' and whom I have no sympathy for. So I guess we're all different when it comes to whom we might tolerate and accept in an unconditional way.

 

[sooo]

Hey sooo,

Language is a funny thing ain't it?
A word means one thing to one person, something else to another.

My understanding of impulsive includes the negative connotation like this one:

Impulsiviness ..a tendency to act on a whim, displaying behavior characterized by little or no forethought, reflection, or consideration of the consequences Impulsive actions typically are "poorly conceived, prematurely expressed, unduly risky, or*inappropriate*to the situation that often result in undesirable consequences,"

I think you may associate the word with spontenaity, intuition, and inspiration.

I play gee tar too. Do you prefer a pick or fingerstyle? (Im a finger noodler)

Hey Moss Man

Funny but I have no problem with those definitions, until it gets to the personal judgments of what they mean, such as 'poorly conceived, prematurely expressed, unduly risky, and so forth. Those are someone's personal judgments on the word impulse, which has the same meaning only without the "ive". Let's open open ole Wiki to see what it has to says about the word.

Science

Impulse (physics), in mechanics, something that changes the momentum of an object; the integral of a force with respect to time
Specific impulse, the change in momentum per unit mass of propellant of a propulsion system
Impulse function, a mathematical function of an infinitely high amplitude and infinitesimal duration
Impulse response, a system's output when presented with the impulse function in Electrical Engineering
Impulse (psychology), a wish or urge, particularly a sudden one
Impulsion, a thrust of a horse

hmm, no moral implications there. Let's continue..

Impulse (1954 film), a thriller film starring Arthur Kennedy
Impulse (1974 film), a thriller film starring William Shatner
Impulse (1984 film), a science fiction film starring Meg Tilly and Tim Matheson
Impulse (1990 film), a thriller film starring Theresa Russell
Impulse (2008 film), a thriller film starring Angus Macfadyen
Impulse (2010 film), an apocalyptic thriller film starring Chris Masterson
"Impulse" (Star Trek: Enterprise), a third season episode of Star Trek: Enterprise
Impulse drive, a fictional form of propulsion in Star Trek

hmm... no negative connotations there either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse for other related associations. Now let's add that morally judged three letters: ive, which only turns the noun into an adjective or adverb.

Impulsive may refer to:

Impulsive (song)
Impulsivity
Impulsion
Impulse function

Disambiguation icon This disambiguation page lists articles associated with the same title.
If an internal link led you here, you may wish to change the link to point directly to the intended article.
Categories:

Disambiguation pages

Still nothing negative said. But I'm certain that if we search enough we'll find some negative moral attachment to the word. Yes, to me it's kin to spontaneous, inspired action not acting according to established laws but by a sudden blast of vision. I think it's probably safe to say, the Big Bang acted impulsively rather than predictably, as something that was calculated.

Oh, nice, a fellow guitar picker. When I was doing it 'seriously', about 80% was finger picking, coming from a folkish influence, but I also played a Gibby ES330 a great deal; wore the frets off it and made gouges in the rosewood board. I played a lot. These days it's purely a hobby and all electric stream of consciousness stuff (impulsive heh heh). Presently playing Fender Teles and Strat. What about yourself? What's your style(s) and do you play out or with a group?

Bruce

 

[moss elk]

http://www.goodallguitars.com/concertjumbo.htm



Im not playing with a group now.
If i ever have enough change in my pocket i'd like to get a Goodall concert jumbo with an engleman spruce top to record with.

amazing instrument. So darn sweet.

 

[sooo]

I've only heard good things about them but never played one. Don't want derail WW's thread too badly but if you ever feel like posting something you've recorded it would be most welcomed in Open Space. :bows:

 

[TygerChild]

I think we do differ on this, So.

When I met my husband, he was a smoker and so was I. I don't remember him ever pressuring me to quit, but he joined Nicotine Anonymous and became a group leader. I attended his group and I attended other groups, too. He was successful in quitting and later I quit, too, when I decided to. You could say we were both addicts but nowadays we are both smoke-free and neither of us has residual cravings. There is something to be said for toleration and acceptance as providing a ground for sheltering what is best in ourselves. It's as if unconditional love creates a space in which people can grow. Yet I know that there are types of people I find to be 'beyond the pale' and whom I have no sympathy for. So I guess we're all different when it comes to whom we might tolerate and accept in an unconditional way.

Yes, I know what you mean ginnie about some people seeming to us to be beyond the pale. I think though that our degree of acceptance of another (anyone in fact) relates to our development along the trajectory of Unconditional Love (I only learnt that word last year and I cant stop finding uses for it now). After all, the universe itself offers us unconditional love if only we could step into that stream? the more we are aligned with that Reality (for that is how it ultimately is), the more truly healthy we are, the more real we are, the more at peace we are. This is because we are acknowledging and embracing what Jung calls our 'shadow selves' if you like (but in the end it is all words and concepts, this)... I love what you said about Unconditional love and 'sheltering' and the way you put it. Exactly what I feel about it.

I have just had this feeling pop into my head: 'this is such a wonderful site. You are all wonderful!'

 

[sooo]

Well, we each set our own limits, tolerances and what we accept as our conditions for a relationship. I haven't ever experienced unconditional love from another human being, nor would I feel I could trust that. I have, however, unthinkingly acted as an enabler, and no good ever came from that in the end. I do think there's a world of difference between reasonable tolerance and being supportive toward positive habits and states of mind, but none of which I view as unconditional. Even the universe presents consequences to our actions, such as self destructive behavior. It may send an angel or helper to our aid, but that helper, if truly a helper, will guide us toward the changes we need to make to reverse these self destructive traits and attitudes. It doesn't wave a magic wand and say it's ok to continue on in a self destructive habit (such as smoking - good example, I think) and to expect our respiratory or heart disease to magically disappear. No, it set limits, and some tough love, and we will pay the consequences of our actions sooner or later. That's doesn't sound like unconditional to me, but the setting of clear limits to be followed in order to better own our lives.

In human life too the individual achieves significance through discrimination and the setting of limits. Therefore what concerns us here is the problem of clearly defining these discriminations, which are, so to speak, the backbone of morality. Unlimited possibilities are not suited to man; if they existed, his life would only dissolve in the boundless. To become strong, a man's life needs the limitations ordained by duty and voluntarily accepted. The individual attains significance as a free spirit only by surrounding himself with these limitations and by determining for himself what his duty is. - Wilhelm h60

 

[TygerChild]

Otherwise known as 'karma' methinks. yes. One main question about this remains. That through the circuitous route sometimes you can learn more, and this may involve crossing boundaries that ordinarily would be frowned upon. It might well entail suffering, but I am not sure that that in itself makes the action wrong, or unwise... Take LSD for example. Some who took it believe it gave them vision which could then be seen as useful pointers regarding spiritual realities....others did and still would be very sceptical and negative about the experiments. Where do we set the limits? (Hex 60 Measurement) is the ultimate quest, the Holy Grail really about 'becoming nothing', becoming indeed 'boundless'?
Good and evil/bad? Life and Death? Duality..... two sides of the same coin.. What is Value?
Having said all that, no, I do not wish to suffer any more! And you are right, limits are important if we want a life in this world that is reasonably workable. And in ordinary human experience I could not tolerate anyone coming into my home and raping me or burglaring my abode could I? And I don't want to be attacked on the streets by robbers either. We need the police or we would have chaos and destruction all round...
Yes, we do have to set our limits for ourselves and to others or we could not survive in this world, and neither could be have the peace and space and safety to achieve any goals at all.

Thanks sooo for your interesting post. I continue to cogitate, and to dance the jig; to burn egg'boiled saucepans, and to scrub the dog. :bows:

 

[sooo]

My beloved canine and teacher is still alive in me and to me, in the many lessons that only a dog can teach. Our backyard was made mostly of desert dust, which matched his color. He not only became adapted to being vacuumed before being allowed inside at night or during hot desert summer days, he'd deliberately roll around to get a nice thick coat of the dust covering him, so that he'd get a thorough 'vacuum massage' every evening before his bed time (grumbling under my breath). Smart dog, making his master his servant, using his master's limitation to provide for his own luxurious pleasure. Now if that isn't mastering ones fate, I don't know what is.

Happy jig dancing.

 

[Trojina]

He not only became adapted to being vacuumed before being allowed inside at night or during hot desert summer days, he'd deliberately roll around to get a nice thick coat of the dust covering him, so that he'd get a thorough 'vacuum massage' every evening before his bed time

it's not for nothing that 'dog' is 'god' backwards. I expect god would like a bit of a vacuum now and then too.

 

[iams girl]

If it’s ok to respond a little late…

This conversation reminds me of, at one time, struggling with people who answer, “I’m fine” to the question, “How are you?” being a lie if they weren’t actually fine. That was my literal, letter of the law interpretation. I eventually settled on the exchange being ok as a common courtesy extended by two people acknowledging each other’s presence in the form of a greeting. That was my spirit of the law interpretation.

Re unconditional love, the letter of the law interpretation is like the “lofty height” interpretation that humans can’t attain. The spirit of the law interpretation is like the interpretation providing the “shelter” of a forgiving nature that allows another room to progress on their path. Imo, “enabling” comes from an entirely misguided interpretation of unconditional love that makes caretakers feel guilty if they rightly communicate to the other that abusive behavior is inappropriate. Those caretakers should be commended instead for all they sacrifice, frequently including marriage vows, in order to do the right thing to help the other get better.

what I'm really needing and looking for is.........Unconditional Love.

I say keep it simple. If I understand correctly, the true question of your heart is whether you will find this love in the here and now. Imo, Yi’s answer is therefore right there with you in the spirit of the here and now. 17.3>49 and your recent 35.1.6>51 on the other thread, to me, say the same thing. "Yes, a little time and tweaking needed maybe, but yes."

IG :bows: