Moderation?

[sistersheba]

Moderating

I have been thinking a lot lately about the prevalence/acceptability of rudeness. No good can come of personal attacks and the more participants who realize those who make personal attacks are up to no good the less "power" rude people will have to waylay a search for clarity. I think the forum users need a way to point out, (flag) suspected personal attacks and collectively shun repeat offenders. I would hope no one person will have to take on the onerous duty of censorship.

 

[bradford]

I think there are some people who need to be attacked, some
contradicted, some ridiculed, some spanked, some removed.
Selection, after all, is half of the process of evolution.
I'm not a big fan of the new age idea that everybody's got
the truth, or of praising little Johnny for being close when
he says 2+2=5 just to inflate his self esteem. There's enough
persistent error in this field already.

How about yet another category, besides open space, to which you could
just drag and drop the posts you find offensive. Open Space is better
used for other purposes. On LiSe's theme, maybe a Doghouse, timeouts
for the bitches and curs. The curious would have to go there voluntarily
to see who's battling whom.

 

[javalava]

My, there has been a lot of heat, hasn't there? It was so good of Hilary to open this window for us . And of all the various reminders that a cool head and a warm heart is better than the other way around :bows: .

But we are discussing what to do about it, and Mike has made a clear suggestion:

HILARY - An idea for you to consider. As well as having the post at the top of teh page outlining you expectations for behaviour within your house, how about emailing all members and all NEW members so that the house rules are clear and visible right from the start. Maybe even in joining there is a sign up to the house rules. All the software companies do this online when you want to use their product.
Remember though, whatever the expectations laid out always expect the unexpected.

I agree with Mike over the need to be clear and public. However, clarity and visibility can be achieved by delineating a perimeter, or it can be maintained by defining a focus at the centre. (Note the implications of "achieved" and "maintained".)

The knee-jerk reaction of making a new law to "fix the problem so it can't happen again" often seems easiest (beforehand). Unfortunately people (yes even awkward adults yelling like pained infants) are not "problems" to be "fixed". Also, a rule is a static, dead thing. No matter how many there are, they cannot hope to control something as dynamic and sophisticated as a community. In the famous words of Jurassic Park's Dr. Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum), "Life will find a way"; especially if our "solution" is to try to plug all the holes by going round the outside.

Some say the harder way can't be done, but I think its worth trying for. For most of my career I was a 6th Form tutor (supervising 17-19 year olds taking exams prior to university entrance). Uniform was the perennial issue, though there were others. Fortunately, the Head of 6th Form understood that her position required a person not a rule-maker. And she carried this "judge" persona well: someone with integrity who understood the need for both justice and mercy, rightness and compassion. So when each year group fomented their grievances, she would listen. And though she'd heard most of it before, she paid attention to the people who were arguing before her.

As a result, these were the kind of "rules" we had. "Uniform had to be reasonable and not draw attention to the wearer." No detail, no reference to 'black shoes' or even style, just an appeal to fit within the ethos of the school. We had one member of staff who couldn't understand any language beyond Bureaucrat, and this drove him nuts. He wanted to know whether skirts had to be plain or was a textured check allowed? But then he also wanted the easy way out: he wouldn't make the investment required to become a teacher, he just wanted the job. (No surprise he was never promoted.) The rest of us solved these issues by talking, a lot. We discussed all kinds of stuff. Sometimes we argued, but we became a team, and over time took on the same viewpoint. So when each of us was confronted with some issue over uniform for instance, we tended to ask the same questions: not "is it against the rules?" but "is it harmful for our school?" There was a School Uniform. Somewhere (I think.) The point was, we didn't need the list as we were (i.e. embodied) the school "rule". And although we were led, even shaped, by the Head of 6th Form, but it didn't all fall on her shoulders.

Although one of Hilary's high scores on the Enneagram Test was for Peacemaker, I suspect from there to Judge is too much of a leap! However, I do think she is superb at setting and maintaining a moral tone. And one of the things that really has my bells ringing is that she does this simply by being herself. But her job is diviner, not policeman. Where Mike's quote (above) appeals for some written constitution, I would suggest using the equivalent of a "Great Person" we can "See"; a mission statement of sorts, something we can rally around as a standard against which to measure day-to-day stuff. In my opinion, an earlier post of Mike's is an excellent candidate...

It looks like they must have had similar problems with the forums back in the times of the Dao De Jing. Here's the rules they came up with

3 ~ How To Rule (Yourself and Others)

Don't place a lot of value on being superior; then people wouldn't have a reason to argue with each other.
Don't hold as precious objects that are hard to come by; then people wouldn't have a reason to steal from one another.
Don't lavish attention on things that are claimed to be desirable; then people wouldn't be chaotic.

It's just natural for a wise person to cure problems by:
Emptying their hearts;
Satisfying their stomachs;
Weakening their determination;
Strengthening their bones;
Constantly reminding people to accept ignorance and not crave more.
Making knowledge something that doesn't have to be foolishly sought after, that doesn't require any actions, and end there.
​

Follow that procedure and there will be nothing that doesn't cure problems.
Mike

Beyond that, what do we do?

Most of the flame wars I have noticed or found myself involved in seem to involve some one or two folks feeling aggrieved for some reason and needing to vent about it, generally in a way that clearly indicates they are having some internal problem of their own.In due time they get to another place and life goes on quietly.
Frank

I would suggest letting things take their course. Its ok for storms to happen from time to time. They will only destroy us if we are already lost.

 

[ruschel]

If someone else has suggested this, please overlook this. I didn't read all the responses. But . . .

Has anyone put these questions to Yi?


One of my favorite aspects of Clarity is the freedom to develop, explore, communicate in a safe haven. With the only limits being one's personal convictions about appropriate behavior.

That being said, to the people who engage in vicious personal attacks - I am a huge believer about openly discussing differences. But I think we are making a mistake by not displaying the detachment and spiritual development the Yi epitomizes in airing our differences. I don't mean to preach - I have a horrible temper and have had to work for years for any semblance of control. But if we don't try to epitomize the spirit of the Yi even in our worst moments, what's the point? What would the Yi observe about arguments ostensibly centered around the Yi?

Thanks for considering my opinion. If I sound preachy it's as much to myself as anyone - trust.

 

[my_key]

Where Mike's quote (above) appeals for some written constitution, I would suggest using the equivalent of a "Great Person" we can "See"; a mission statement of sorts, something we can rally around as a standard against which to measure day-to-day stuff. In my opinion, an earlier post of Mike's is an excellent candidate...

Hi Chris
I agree with the sense in much of what you have written here, there is a strong connection between the issues being shown here and teaching 6th formers. Just to be clear, so that I am not thrown in the same basket as your Bureaucratic teacher I am not advocating a written constitution more a clearer definition of boundaries. Something that outlines what is expected /acceptable behaviour. To my mind it steps a bit beyond a pure mission statement.

The Dao de Jing verse makes a good straw man to be shot at with other suggestions. Maybe Bradford could contribute his translation.He has a great gift for turning ancient Chinese into meaningful modern parlance.

Although let us bear in mind that it also says somewhere something like when you set a load of strict rules in place some people will work their damndest to find a way over and under and around them. The stricter the rules the harder they try.
Life, indeed, will find a way and of course we need to expect that.

Mike

 

[Trojina]

How about yet another category, besides open space, to which you could
just drag and drop the posts you find offensive. Open Space is better
used for other purposes. On LiSe's theme, maybe a Doghouse, timeouts
for the bitches and curs. The curious would have to go there voluntarily
to see who's battling whom.

Thats a funny idea I have the sense it would be the most visited area as soon as people log onto the site...there could also be 'amnesty corner' where arguments are taken when used up and dispensed with to save them cluttering up the threads

 

[AltVis8D]

Hello all,

I'm here at Hillary's urging to take this poll. I voted for no change, or for moderate moderation. I'm not a frequent contributor here. To the point of the poll, which being a poll offers nothing in the way of nuance, I wonder if the people who urged Hillary to increase moderation are themselves 'victims' as such who participate in offensive behavior (other than but including taking offense).
Without commenting on what others have suggested - I frankly know too little about the particulars of the issue - I'd like to suggest a 'flag'-button, right down next to 'quote' & 'reply', which would anonymously flag a post for all to see as well as bring it to Hillary's attention particularly.
This addresses Hillary's other poll, over the relative moderation of Open Space. I think Open Space is well purposed presently. I suggest 'open' or no moderation in Open Space.
So what I'm really saying is that with the addition of a flag-button there might be the relative additional moderation of Hillary's review and if necessary removing flagged posts to Open Space.
'Removal' would be at Hillary's discretion, so something flagged might not necessarily be removed. Similarly 'Flagging' would be at forum-members' discretion, with the understanding that only the most egregious and flagrant, purposefully disruptive 'offenses' will be - anonymously - flagged.
So, a little more work all around, but just a little, and the moderation mechanism would be anonymous. "Ignorance is bliss", isn't it? (but then, what is denial?).

 

[AltVis8D]

Hmm... just noticed the 'report post' button. It is different than what I've suggested. I suggest replacing this button with a public and anonymous 'flag'-button.

 

[bamboo]

I suggest another kind of moderation esp in shared readings...and that is, to have a person ( or various people at different times) play the role of welcomer to new voices. sometimes new voices go unacknowledged, and not because others are unfriendly ...but it can perceived that way. also a moderator can guide the newcomer thru the first posts, explain things, even be the moderating voice when opposing methods are presented.

as far as moderating insults and bullies and that stuff, i like the flagging idea....

 

[meng]

I think there are some people who need to be attacked, some
contradicted, some ridiculed, some spanked, some removed.
Selection, after all, is half of the process of evolution.
I'm not a big fan of the new age idea that everybody's got
the truth, or of praising little Johnny for being close when
he says 2+2=5 just to inflate his self esteem. There's enough
persistent error in this field already.

How about yet another category, besides open space, to which you could
just drag and drop the posts you find offensive. Open Space is better
used for other purposes. On LiSe's theme, maybe a Doghouse, timeouts
for the bitches and curs. The curious would have to go there voluntarily
to see who's battling whom.

Very interesting idea.

 

[cyberlight369]

Not Again!

(sigh) tsk, tsk, tsk. The same, old, tired and exasperating issue. Flaming and attacking. I thought at least in a forum given to the I Ching, which I consider the "clothing" of The Oracle, which I consider radiation from Heaven, there would be behavior corresponding to the subject matter. Virtue, courtesy, etc.

But people are people wherever you find them. I say give flamers and attackers short shrift. We have a saying here: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." So I say, "flame and attack once and you receive a warning. Flame and attack twice, sorry pal, you're out of here!"

I vote for more moderation.

 

[meng]

To the point of the poll, which being a poll offers nothing in the way of nuance

Thank you. It isn't if but how, when and why.

No one can escape the fact that it is always a subjective call, no matter what.

One other thing, I'm really tired of the word "attack" being used so loosely. What you consider an attack, someone else will consider to be a justifiable defense, or a statement which needed to be said. Someone else with see it as abusive. Two people get into an argument, who decides which one is guilty of attacking? You might choose one, I might choose the other.

There's no escaping that the only way rules and laws work is if there's someone making the final judgment call, and that's always going to be subjective. People will still get pissed and say un-polite things. What are you going to do, ban them all, lock them all up in a time out?

 

[ionacaddy]

Hello everyone!

Like most of you I am here because Hilary has asked us all to participate in this vote. I am usually a lurker here, but to this I feel I should comment.

I voted to leave the moderation the way it is now. I have read the majority of the posts here and I have to agree with what Javalava said, which is,
"I would suggest letting things take their course. Its OK for storms to happen from time to time. They will only destroy us if we are already lost."

I think everyone should be allowed to express their thoughts, tactfully and without cursing, one would hope, because opinions are like buttock's, everyone has one and some people just feel the need to show there's more often.

Of course, we could do a thumb's up/thumb's down vote on the people to exhibit bad behavior and just vote them off the island!

 

[hilary]

Wow... ever so glad I thought to send an email about this. Thank you, everyone.

HILARY - An idea for you to consider. As well as having the post at the top of teh page outlining you expectations for behaviour within your house, how about emailing all members and all NEW members so that the house rules are clear and visible right from the start. Maybe even in joining there is a sign up to the house rules. All the software companies do this online when you want to use their product.
Remember though, whatever the expectations laid out always expect the unexpected.

Mike

Yes - I'll do that. An unfortunate side-effect of the way the membership software is set up here is that I can't use Vbulletin's built-in 'agree to forum rules before joining' thingy. But I can add to my introductory emails and to the 'thank you for joining' page.

How about yet another category, besides open space, to which you could
just drag and drop the posts you find offensive. Open Space is better
used for other purposes. On LiSe's theme, maybe a Doghouse, timeouts
for the bitches and curs. The curious would have to go there voluntarily
to see who's battling whom.

The Doghouse.
Limbo.
Timeout Corner.

(Still... is this a serious suggestion? It would be easy enough to do, and I sort-of like the idea. Keep Open Space for UFOs and lolcats.)

I agree with Mike over the need to be clear and public. However, clarity and visibility can be achieved by delineating a perimeter, or it can be maintained by defining a focus at the centre. (Note the implications of "achieved" and "maintained".)

Noted!

The knee-jerk reaction of making a new law to "fix the problem so it can't happen again" often seems easiest (beforehand). Unfortunately people (yes even awkward adults yelling like pained infants) are not "problems" to be "fixed". Also, a rule is a static, dead thing. No matter how many there are, they cannot hope to control something as dynamic and sophisticated as a community. In the famous words of Jurassic Park's Dr. Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum), "Life will find a way"; especially if our "solution" is to try to plug all the holes by going round the outside. Some say the harder way can't be done, but I think its worth trying for.

Yes, those pesky velociraptors do keep on showing up. (Some people come up with dog training analogies; Chris raises the stakes...)

What you and other wise people seem to be saying is that a community is a centripetal thing. What I'm thinking of writing for us, now, is a simple statement of intention for the forum, followed by ways for all members to support and foster that intention.

Where Mike's quote (above) appeals for some written constitution, I would suggest using the equivalent of a "Great Person" we can "See"; a mission statement of sorts, something we can rally around as a standard against which to measure day-to-day stuff.

Ah yes. We're coming to the same sort of idea. A friend was advising me just the other day to see people at their best and just not engage with anyone other than that best self - she does this, she says, with her teenage son. I said - I know what you mean, there's an expression in the Yijing that can refer to that...

Beyond that, what do we do?
I would suggest letting things take their course. Its ok for storms to happen from time to time. They will only destroy us if we are already lost.

Mm. I suppose the bottom line is that I'm finding I'm not OK with the storms - or not with the way I've been responding to them (or failing to) up until now.

... I think the forum users need a way to point out, (flag) suspected personal attacks and collectively shun repeat offenders. I would hope no one person will have to take on the onerous duty of censorship.

...I'd like to suggest a 'flag'-button, right down next to 'quote' & 'reply', which would anonymously flag a post for all to see as well as bring it to Hillary's attention particularly.
This addresses Hillary's other poll, over the relative moderation of Open Space. I think Open Space is well purposed presently. I suggest 'open' or no moderation in Open Space.
So what I'm really saying is that with the addition of a flag-button there might be the relative additional moderation of Hillary's review and if necessary removing flagged posts to Open Space.
'Removal' would be at Hillary's discretion, so something flagged might not necessarily be removed. Similarly 'Flagging' would be at forum-members' discretion, with the understanding that only the most egregious and flagrant, purposefully disruptive 'offenses' will be - anonymously - flagged.
So, a little more work all around, but just a little, and the moderation mechanism would be anonymous. "Ignorance is bliss", isn't it? (but then, what is denial?).

Hmm... just noticed the 'report post' button. It is different than what I've suggested. I suggest replacing this button with a public and anonymous 'flag'-button.

That would mean hacking the software - big expensive perilous thing to undertake. But I think we can use the 'report post' button perfectly well for what you're suggesting. I see who sends the report, but no-one else does. You can't see which posts are flagged/reported, though. Is that particularly important?

I suggest another kind of moderation esp in shared readings...and that is, to have a person ( or various people at different times) play the role of welcomer to new voices. sometimes new voices go unacknowledged, and not because others are unfriendly ...but it can perceived that way. also a moderator can guide the newcomer thru the first posts, explain things, even be the moderating voice when opposing methods are presented.

I like that

There's no escaping that the only way rules and laws work is if there's someone making the final judgment call, and that's always going to be subjective. People will still get pissed and say un-polite things. What are you going to do, ban them all, lock them all up in a time out?

Moving the un-polite posts, if people 'flag' them, seems a good option. And maybe suspending people who are going through such an 'un-polite' patch that it's hard for anyone else to be heard.

It's certainly going to be subjective, and some people are bound to want to shoot the police, which is one reason why I'll continue as the only moderator to start with.

...opinions are like buttock's, everyone has one and some people just feel the need to show there's more often.

 

[meng]

Originally Posted by ionacaddy View Post
...opinions are like buttock's, everyone has one and some people just feel the need to show there's more often.

Hilary -

Now was that humorous or offensive? How was it intended? How was it interpreted, and by whom?

 

[hattah]

You can't see which posts are flagged/reported, though. Is that particularly important?

IMO the reason I would want to "see" which post(s) had been flagged would be so that I could run away if avoidance were my intent.

On the other hand some might view it as "Here's where the action is" and want a ringside seat. I suppose that could have a positive or a negative effect.
I never realized until yesterday what the button we have for flagging was...now I'm glad I did not click it.

So many of the posts (I have been in the archives) that were problematic have to do with "methods" that I wondered if it would be worth the effort to have a room when people could explain their way of working with the Yi so others would understand what they were doing.
However I would make this a "no comment" room.
What you see is what you get.
It is what it is.

 

[hattah]

Now was that humorous or offensive? How was it intended? How was it interpreted, and by whom?

I never hear the word buttocks now without thinking of Forrest Gump.

 

[hilary]

Now was that humorous or offensive? How was it intended? How was it interpreted, and by whom?

Doesn't matter - it wasn't aggressive.

So many of the posts (I have been in the archives) that were problematic have to do with "methods" that I wondered if it would be worth the effort to have a room when people could explain their way of working with the Yi so others would understand what they were doing.
However I would make this a "no comment" room.
What you see is what you get.
It is what it is.

We already have a place to explain ways of working with Yi - it's called 'Exploring Divination' . Last time all this came around, I suggested that when someone was using a method/approach that others weren't familiar with, they should add a signature linking to an explanation of this method so everyone could follow along. That might be a good idea to dig out again.

 

[hilary]

(By the way... sooner or later someone is going to wonder where Twilight's posts went. He asked me to delete the whole lot along with his membership, and I did. I don't have any published 'terms' about granting me a license to publish your posts, or anything, so I couldn't refuse. Sorry about the archive-mangling.)

 

[emc2cme]

good wine or what

It may have just been the nice glass of wine I had with dinner, but I see this whole thread as a microcosm of the Yi--the good, the bad and the ugly. I recognize those kind souls, and those micromanagers out there. I think we all do. I don't think Hillary needs any more work. I just love this beautiful field she's created for us to play/work/tussle in. Viva you, Grey Rat!

BTW, I wondered where Twilight went. Thanks for explaining it.

 

[hattah]

Ha ha your right!

We already have a place to explain ways of working with Yi - it's called 'Exploring Divination'

lol at myself! I knew that.

:bag:

 

[Sparhawk]

Now was that humorous or offensive? How was it intended? How was it interpreted, and by whom?

Yeah!! Offensive, I'll say. I summarily object to any hairy male buttocks showing up more or showing at all.

 

[Sparhawk]

(By the way... sooner or later someone is going to wonder where Twilight's posts went. He asked me to delete the whole lot along with his membership, and I did. I don't have any published 'terms' about granting me a license to publish your posts, or anything, so I couldn't refuse. Sorry about the archive-mangling.)

Wow! If anything, the guy was thorough... Nice to know you must grant others the same wish.

 

[Trojina]

I never realized until yesterday what the button we have for flagging was...now I'm glad I did not click it.

We have a button for 'flagging' ? You were glad you hadn't clicked it ? Please tell me what is this flagging button ? I don't know what it is or what it means or if i ever pressed it (now Bamboo can call me 'clueless')...all these years here and i never encountered this 'flagging button'...

 

[Trojina]

(By the way... sooner or later someone is going to wonder where Twilight's posts went. He asked me to delete the whole lot along with his membership, and I did. I don't have any published 'terms' about granting me a license to publish your posts, or anything, so I couldn't refuse. Sorry about the archive-mangling.)

Pity, I was enjoying his contributions in Shredded Readings and trying the method he used for multiple moving lines on previous old readings of mine. I definately feel theres something to that method, even while it seems somewhat arbitrary. I think its likley to be something i will always consider for multiple line answers from now on....working through multiple moving lines one by one just doesn't feel at all right to me and never has

 

[Trojina]

Wow! If anything, the guy was thorough... Nice to know you must grant others the same wish.

lol if everyone does that this place will disappear in a puff of smoke

 

[jonny]

freedom of speach,, ? as long as we are sensible and debate with each other not attack..

 

[heylise]

We have a button for 'flagging' ? You were glad you hadn't clicked it ? Please tell me what is this flagging button ? I don't know what it is or what it means or if i ever pressed it (now Bamboo can call me 'clueless')...all these years here and i never encountered this 'flagging button'...

You're not the only one. I never knew either. It is the traffic sign at the top right of all posts. The triangle with exclamation mark.

 

[maremaria]

I came across and found what that button is some time ago. I use it some days ago. It is easier to use it than send a PM or an e-mail. You push it , a text box appears, you can write a comment if you want and.. Ready !!! But there was always tools to say ”this post has a problem. Please take care of it ” What happens after reporting is what concerns me.

But how many times one will use it if the results are not satisfying ? How many times one will push it before s/he will say “why to bother ?”

 

[hilary]

I can't answer that. The 'report post' button means I will come look at what's happening, and decide what to do, if anything. I can't promise it'll be what you expected/wanted me to do.

At the moment that little triangle lives in something of a vacuum, since I haven't really said what to report or what to expect. And where I have said what to expect (eg that Open Space isn't moderated at all), this isn't necessarily very clear, or a very good idea. These things will be changed, hopefully even improved.