Murder of the 6 year old beauty queen.

[willowfox]

I saw in the news today the case of the 6 year old beauty queen who was alledgedly killed by John Mark Karr. But the lastest news is that some people already dispute the man's willing confession. Therefore, I asked the question; "Did John Mark Karr kill the 6 year old beauty queen?

I received the following : 44 line 1 >1

Line one mentions a brake of bronze, does this mean handcuffs in this case?
It further mentions that the lean pig has it in himself to rage around and therefore must be curbed(arrested).
Karr is a lean man, not fat at all and not that tall either.

Hex one is positive and therefore I would concluded that the answer to my question is yes he killed the girl.

What do you think?

 

[koanikal]

I think it's just telling you to stop worrying about someone else's problem before it becomes a problem of your own (i.e. a waste of energy).

 

[mudpie]

44.1 is a disturbing (disturbed) influence which is necessarily held in check. Mr. Karr is disturbing for sure, and now he is held in check so that he cannot do anything stupid.
BUt the line one is also pointing to the fact that something will prevent him from carrying on his destructive charade any longer than necessary. And that "something" is the fact that his story is not credible.

 

[dobro p]

"I received the following : 44 line 1 >1

Line one mentions a brake of bronze, does this mean handcuffs in this case?
It further mentions that the lean pig has it in himself to rage around and therefore must be curbed(arrested)."

What you drew applies to you; it applies to you enquiring about things that have little to do with you or what you need to know. It's an abuse of the oracle, basically; that's why the oracle's telling you to put a brake on it.

The oracle operates through *you* when you consult. It picks up *your* state, which includes your needs. Nobody else's needs. *Your* needs. It talks about what *you* need to know. So if you ask a question about something that has nothing to do with you, the oracle will respond in the only way it can, which is the most appropriate way it can: it will tell you what you need to know about *you* right now. In this case, it told you to put a brake on what you were doing.

 

[willowfox]

To Dobro,

Thank you for your enlightening comments but surely the oracle can be used for world events as well as just personal. I know that the question that I asked has nothing to do with me personally but I had a need to know and the oracle gave me an "answer". I certainly don't see my question as an abuse of the oracle, I see it as more of a quest for knowledge, and searching for knowledge is not a waste of energy(koanikal). I don't think that the Chinese of bygone times limited their questions solely for personal use, do you? I know that there are many I-Ching users on this planet who use the oracle to ask all kinds of questions that have nothing to do with them personally, so I do not see it as an abuse when I do it. Senior member Martin recently asked a question about the Israel and Hezbollah conflict did he also abuse the oracle or is this abuse nonsense only applying to new members? People experiment with the I-Ching all the time, one just has to go to a bookstore to see the various publications about the I-Ching that are on sale. In Tsung Hwa Jou's book the Tao of I-Ching, he uses The Plum Flower Mind I-Ching and The Hu Tien Method to answer many non personal questions and he is Chinese, so whats the problem.
Of course *you* can read the phrase "brake of bronze" in three ways, one applying to myself, one applying to Mr.Karr and one applying to the use of the I-Ching. I think that you are putting a personal "brake" on the oracle as to what it can and can't be used for. You did not invent the I-Ching, so how do you know its limits and possibilities, one has to experiment, not blindly follow other peoples short sighted ideas.
If you think that 44 line 1 applies to myself, can you please enlighten me as to the meaning of hex one regarding myself?

 

[sinbaru]

Senior member Martin recently asked a question about the Israel and Hezbollah conflict did he also abuse the oracle or is this abuse nonsense only applying to new members?

Hi willowfox,

I think you can use the I Ching any way you want. I think it probably works to a certain extent, but I often find the answers too obscure to be of much use.

I've noticed that quite a few of the people here are rather pompous and have made the I Ching into an idol of sorts. Off with your head if you dare to approach the idol without the 'proper respect'. Notice that supposedly the I Ching has decided that you don't need to know this information. It knows better than you do. Trust it. Bow down to it.

I've been interested in tarot for a long time and I have not found this stance among tarot readers. I think most card readers understand that the cards are not to be worshipped, and are just a tool.

 

[martin]

Hi Willowfox.

I don't think Dobro's comment has anything to do with 'junior' or 'senior'. And these titles don't mean anything, it's just the forum software that counts your posts and will call you 'senior' if there are 100 or more, or something like that.

It's Dobro! He sometimes likes to use, how shall I call it, strong language?

 

[rosada]

When friends have been surprised by some of the questions I've put to the I Ching - "Can you ask THAT???" - I explain that once or twice I have had a volume burst into flames before I could read the answer, but 9 times out of 10...

I don't believe the I Ching will only tell us what we "need" to know. While it is true, the I Ching can only give us what we can receive, if our inner state is wide enough we can receive everything. Hex.2 "Thus the superior man who has breadth of character carries the outer world."

I agree with Listener's analysis of the hexagram, that this hexagram is only saying that this man has been caught. To say hex.44 - 1 means he is guilty is reading things into the hex that simply aren't there. And this could be the personal message for Willowfox, not that she should not ask the question, but to put a brake on jumping to conclusions. Her answer does make sence in discribing the situation, so the I Ching is willing to answer the question, but perhaps now it is saying a different sort of question - not a yes or no question? - is required to gather further insights.

 

[ewald]

I have a translation of 44.1 that differs from Wilhelm's. I believe it's more pertinent to the question:

Fastened to a firm Ni tree.
Persistence brings good fortune,
have a goal to move to.
Notice misfortune.
A bound swine is sure to step around and trample.
​

According to CNN, John Mark Karr says that JonBenet's death was an accident. The girl was found strangled.

44.1 tells about being bound and fastened. I'd say a rope around someone's neck counts like that. Also, it advices to "Notice misfortune." This is about having a responsibility to make sure that nothing happens to the one being bound. In this context, Karr didn't adequately take that responsibility and got the girl strangled (in a very questionable situation). By accident, as he claims.

So in my view this line says that Karr strictly speaking didn't actually kill the girl, but is responsible. Like he stated, he's not innocent.

 

[willowfox]

Hi sinbaru,
of course I believe that the I-Ching can be used in many different ways both for personal and non personal questions. You are quite right it is not a god/idol that must be worshipped but simply a tool to try and discover the unknown. I am afraid that there are some people that make themselves busy putting down other people.

When I use Horary astrology I can ask any question on any subject that pops into my head, again it is simply a tool or should I say a prop to discover the unknown. In astrology there is no such thing as an abuse of the planets, no rights or wrongs. As the I-Ching is just an oracle it can be used in any way the questioner desires.

To rosada,
I concluded that Mr.Karr was guilty from the final hexagram which is hex one.

 

[willowfox]

Hi ewald,

the girl had been very badly beaten, so bad in fact that her skull was fractured. The police found no signs of rape, so it seems that the girl was killed in a fit of blind rage.
Karr stated the other day that the girl died by accident, could a fit of blind rage be an accident? Or is there more to this strange story then meets the eye? Christmas time and the parents were not in the house with their daughter? All very strange.

 

[ewald]

Cnn has: "massive blow to the head," which, without more details, can come from lots of things, like being beaten, falling in a bad way, someone forcefully moving an object. Do you know of evidence that shows the blow was by violence?

 

[rosada]

Oh, I think I get you now, Willowfox. I was thinking you were saying the I Ching's answer was yes just because it identified Mr.Karr. Like, "The I Ching agree's he was arrested so therefore that must mean he's guilty." Now i realize your dialog was more along the lines of,

Question: Yes or no, did Karr [a lean man in handcuffs] kill JonBenet?

Answer: A lean man in handcuffs [Karr] - yes.
...
Well I guess this proves the I Ching will answer yes or no questions. But is it accurate?

 

[Trojina]

Ascertaining the guilt or not of this person can hardly rest on receiving hex 1 as a relating hexagram ! Its enough to give divination a bad name, like some trashy salacious fortune telling.

I just don't get why this thread is even happening, its merely idle speculation on how this child was murdered. You are not going to find out by asking the Yi and why do you want to ? Maybe you find it an entertaining puzzle ?

 

[mudpie]

It's merely an opinion that the I ching will not answer questions about such matters. If you read the Sorrells I Ching, they have a running commentary on every hexagram and answers they have gotten through the years to questions they asked.... some of them were about world affairs, etc. and the answers were spot on, as subsequent events proved out.
Interpretation may be the tricky part......I think it is stretching things a bit to say that 44.1 is describing the cause of death in this case. This "raging pig" - Karr- could NOt have killed JB because he was held back! Obviously he was held back........he wasnt even in colorado! and he said he picked her up at school when this happened on Christmas Day (no school...duh!) I think the response was so perfect. He is a disturbing guy who probably has the rage and motivation, but he didnt/couldnt have done this crime.
BTW, when Oj Simpson was on trial, I asked if he was guilty...and my response was 23.4
Which to me meant, YES, he totally lost it and killed his wife and the young man.

I'd like to know where "It IS Written" you can only ask the SOME questions and you can't ask others. Bulltwat. YOu can ask whatever the hell you want, and there is no cosmic hand-slapping. geez.

 

[Trojina]

Who said anything about 'cosmic hand slapping' ? No one. But the day people start judging others guilty by asking the I Ching is the day I join Chris Lofting in calling all this childish delusion. Preferable isn't it to rely on courts and judges and jurys and lawyers, maybe where a person might get a chance of a fair trial, than some individual tossing 3 coins !

Interpretation can be difficut and sometimes we get it wrong so when it comes down to asking if someones guilty of murder, then actually believing you know the answer from the Yi, wow that is worrying.

No one here said that people can't ask what they like, of course they can, there is nothing to stop them. Whether their answers are meaningful is a matter of opinion as it always is and this being a public forum some of us have doubts. I think it is okay if we express those doubts.

 

[rosada]

Ah Listener,
So you are saying the hexagram is telling us Karr is the lean pig and he was held back from committing the murder. Okay, that fits. But then what do you make of hexagram 1?

 

[mudpie]

Trojan, BY cosmic hand-slapping I mean when someone suggests to someone else that their yi response is telling them to "put a brake" on their questioning....because "you are not supposed to be asking those questions."

You dont have to believe me- or agree with me - that the Yi can give you accurate answers about anything at all.....and I certainly dont thnk it is "worrying" to interpret any answer for oneself....even if it IS about someone's murderous guilt. I am not putting anyone on public trial much less annoucing their guilt to the world. I just asked the question. That was my answer and I interpreted it for myself. It said "he lost it-disaster"
and my response to THAT was ...hmmmm, interesting. I dont lose my common sense, and I dont lose my balance. I dont hold my Yi response in a very tight hand, either.

I didnt know questions of that nature were off limits or suddenly made the use of yi childish and delusional?? You may have those guidelines, but I do not. Sounds like you are putting me on trial ; )

Rosada, I dont make anything of hex 1 in this case....other than maybe a definitve underline to the response, a response which seemed perfect to me. I dont always take into consideration the relating hex. An answer can make perfect sense without it, and sometimes it is a very impt corollary. I dont analyze responses too much, just go with my gut. That works for me : )

 

[rosada]

Perhaps hex 1 here stands for The Clear Path and 44 is Delusion. So 44.1 says clamp down on this delusion before it obscures our clarity and once we do, the clear path becomes obvious.

I don't feel uncomfortable discussing this question. If weren't for this sort of interest, a lot of crimes would be allowed to go unsolved. Further, Karr has confessed to the crime on camera, so he's basically asking to have his story be food for the public trough. And I don't think we're just saying, "Okay, six tails, he's guilty," We are sincerely trying to apply what we know about the I Ching. I guess the thing to consider is, is there a better use for our time right now? For me, I'm really getting value seeing how these hexagrams can be meaningfully interpreted in such a variety of ways. So I think Im using my time wisely, but hey, if somebody has a different interesting example we could put up on the blackboard, I'm ready to switch.

 

[willowfox]

Hi ewald,

in the news report it states quite clearly that the girl's skull was factured as a result of being violently attacked. She was then strangled with a nylon cord. The killer completely lost it, killing her in a fit of blind rage. Why the anger, why the rage, nobody knows yet.


Hi rosada,

I have found that the I-Ching, like any other oracle will answer yes or no questions with a very high degree of accuracy. In this case we can only await the verdict of the court to see the outcome. I am not stating that Mr.Karr is guilty, I am only putting my question that I asked on the web to see what other people make of the answer that I received. I fully believe that the question that I asked should indeed be asked because society must catch and lock away the pigs who commit these awful murders.


To trojan,

my question has nothing to do with giving divination a bad name, you will find, if you read history, that divination has always had a bad name. I asked this question because I do indeed consider it a puzzle, I think entertaining is not the correct word to be used here. This thread is happening because there is certainly a need to know about this very strange murder case and the I-Ching has provided an "answer", thank you. I suggest you go join Chris Lofting and let the rest of us enjoy asking the I-Ching our childish questions, and by all means express your doubts but please don't become overbearing and arrogant. I do rely on the judges and the courts for an answer, thats what they get paid for, even if they do make mistakes sometimes.

Hi listener,

I never said that 44 line one described the cause of death, I only said that this line describes Mr.Karr very well. My personal opinion is that Mr.Karr is the killer, so we will have to wait and see the courts verdict. I totally agree with you, you can ask the I-Ching any question that you want and about anything that you want but you will always receive an answer. I just cannot understand why certain people try to tell us ordinary folks what we can and cannot ask the I-Ching, better for those people to use their time more constructively.

 

[sinbaru]

I'm going to vote for "No, he didn't do it". I think 44.1 sounds like a perfect description of what's going on though:

Karr is the "inferior element" that has come to meet the strong, the authorities, who are now tempted to believe him. He is the "lean pig"...

isn't this a perfect physical description of the man?

...must be put in his place immediately lest he get out of control and start "raging around" and doing damage.

 

[ewald]

Hi ewald,

in the news report it states quite clearly that the girl's skull was factured as a result of being violently attacked. She was then strangled with a nylon cord. The killer completely lost it, killing her in a fit of blind rage. Why the anger, why the rage, nobody knows yet.

I see.
Perhaps your question was more about Karr than about the situation where JonBenet got killed. As you identify Karr with the swine in 44.1, the "step around and trample" is important here. (There is no mention of "rage" in the original Chinese.)

This article in the Independent about Karr cleared a couple of things up for me. I think Karr got entangled in this situation by his weird identification with it. His confession is some kind of "trampling around," it is not the truth. But we will know in a couple of weeks, when his DNA has been compared to that found on the victim.

 

[Trojina]

Funny how 44 is to some about how one deals with 'unwanted elements' and here Willowfox says "...I asked because society must catch and lock away the pigs who commit these awful murders" Interesting use of the word 'pigs' in this quote ?? Meaning human beings who commit horrific acts ? I presume this use of the word 'pigs' was meant to reflect the pig in line 1 of 44. Or it might mean she thinks these people are not like the rest of us, that they are not human ? Maybe such an attitude might need checking with a 'brake of bronze' ?

Just a thought. I'll leave you in peace to solve this crime.

 

[rosada]

Just for the record, I applaud Trojan's expressing her protest. Over and over the I Ching urges us, "Think what you are doing, think what you are doing," every step of the way. We are free to follow her advice or ignor it, and I am glad to know where she stands.

 

[Trojina]

Thanks Rosada I appreciate that.

 

[dobro p]

For the last few months on this site, I've tried this approach: whenever it seemed to be that somebody was seriously off track with their approach to the oracle, I've told them, as directly as possible (I've been *really* direct, but I don't think I've been insulting; some people have felt insulted, I think, but that's more about their egos than mine, I think.) Almost without exception, the people I've addressed my comments to (plus others who have felt it important that I hear what they think about my comments) have rejected what I've said. It's been interesting for me to have done this, in order to see how often people are willing to question their own approach. There are only two conclusions I can draw from this: first, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Second, my approach is all wrong, and directness accomplishes nothing but to create resistance in the person I'm addressing.

I think I'll take a new approach in the next few months, in order to see if there's any difference.

 

[mudpie]

Maybe it is not so much your approach that is wrong, Dobro, but your assumption that you know when someone else is off-track in their relationship to the oracle. Maybe it is you who is unwilling to question your own (rigid) ideas.
Maybe

 

[bruce_g]

Paul, rather than trying this or that approach to see what works on people, or by using trickery and baiting so that others’ responses can amuse you as your guinea pigs, maybe just try being sincere.

(edit)
Paul,

That sounded harsher than I intended it to. One of the pitfalls of typed words over voice. I was referring to your string of posts about ‘what pizza should I order’ and other such pranks. It seems you do like to push people's buttons and jerk their chains. But if that’s your sincere personality, you have to be true to it. Same with your pov of people asking “stupid questions” and such. If that’s your way, sincerely, that’s just your way. But I wouldn’t expect others to always respect that pov, or you for having it. Be that as it may, to thine own self be true. People and teachers come in many forms. Not all are polite, gentle or tolerant. But I do think all great teachers are sincere.

 

[dobro p]

Listener: you think I have rigid ideas. Okay, I can see why you would think that. I'm pretty didactic in my tone, after all. But I think it's my style that's rigid, not my ideas. See, I think a lot of the people who post here are using the oracle in a much less than skillful fashion. I think a lot of the people who post here use the oracle for questions they don't need to ask, or ask questions in ways that are almost guaranteed to produce ambiguous results. And when I say that, many of the people (not all) who object to what I say seem to be pretty newage wishy-washy to me. But the reason I say what I say is that I really truly perceive a lot of the posters here to be far from efficacious in their approach to oracle use. I base this on personal experience of the oracle, nothing else.

Bruce: you're one of my most persistent critics. You say: "I was referring to your string of posts about ‘what pizza should I order’ and other such pranks."

It wasn't a prank. It was a tongue in cheek portrayal of some of the idiot questions I've read here. Really. People here ask a *lot* of stupid questions, so I was taking issue with that by taking the piss. The fact that so many people took that thread seriously or thought I was being weird (or thought I was playing a prank) is a pretty telling indication of where people's minds are at. I lampoon something, and most people don't see it as a lampoon. To reiterate: it wasn't a prank. It was a serious lampooning of some reapeatedly less than intelligent behavior I've seen a lot on this board. And hey, if you didn't think it was funny, well okay. But if you didn't realize it was a lampoon, well that's too bad.

Now, maybe you'd like everybody here to be polite and accepting of each other's foibles and all have a good time. But it really disturbs me when I see people wasting their time asking the oracle things that they should either be asking themselves or asking somebody else, or which they have no business asking. The arrogance of some of the questions I've read here astounds me. And that's why I tell people what I think will improve their use of the oracle.

Finally, as to my style. Well, first of all, I've employed the style I have not because I want to push people's buttons (gee, you're paranoid lol), but because I want people to take what I say seriously. I want them to wake up a bit. And *that's* because I think using an oracle demands sensitivity, skill, intelligence and heart. Secondly, as I said above, I tried out the 'direct' approach to see how effective it would be and I've learned what I could from it. Now I'm going to take a different approach, in order to see how that compares in terms of results. And in future, I look forward to your getting the wrong end of the stick again and again in your self-appointed crusade to straighten me out, or at least show *others* where I've gone wrong. I know you'll love it.

 

[bruce_g]

Paul,

I don't like your style, you don't like my style. No big deal.

:bows: