My View of Motherhood

[marybluesky]

I have a negative view of motherhood. I see it as an invasion of female body and locking the woman down for the rest of her life.
Plus, I think it's such a disadvantage for women to undergo all the suffering while men only enjoy and have their children.
I'm a feminist by the way.
I asked "How my view of motherhood changes if I keep on going through my current path?"and got 23.5 >20.
Hexagram 23 talks about something being torn (my aversion to the female role?).
The changing line 5 refers to "gaining favor through palace ladies" according to several descriptions (getting more in tune with one's feminine side? benefiting from good female companions?)
Hexagram 20 invites us to put aside any prejudices and get ready to see the truth as it is- as if there are false judgements that obscure the reality.
My opinion: If I try to be present with life- as I'm already doing- and not to judge it by my established thoughts, I'll discover something about the femininity that softens my view.
I've tried to be more positive but I can't help myself considering motherhood as a huge injustice.
I'll appreciate your comments.

 

[becalm]

Hello, I'm really not understanding your question to be honest. However my opinion on motherhood is one of joy, which part do you think is unfair?

 

[marybluesky]

Hello becalm!I'm trying to be open and undestand the truth, so my question is: "If I keep on searching for the truth, how my view toward motherhood will be?"My opinion of motherhood is the exact opposite of yours: I see absolutely no joy in it.The unfair partsregnancy: physical and mental suffering- losing your shape.Child labor: Horrible pain.Nurturing: physical suffering and losing your shape+ losing your body's calecium.The whole process of child rearing: losing your life, not being able to enjoy the things you enjoyed once, having a parasite....While men just enjoy sex and lose NOTHING. NOTHING.Too unfair.

 

[MeltingPot247]

Hello again Marybluesky...First off, both posts I've read of yours so far - I relate to...wow! I am a young mother of two, and I totally see and agree with the 'unfair' comment you have made about motherhood in terms of the mostly mental and physical sacrifices we go through - however I don't agree that children are parasites, but if a parent thinks a child is, then they will likely treat the child like one, and that child will always appear to behave like one if you hear what I am saying.Although my stomach area is physically unappealing to me, I work with what everything else I've got to attract others to me, namely my personality - and I am saving for surgery for my own peace of mind, as no one man really gets to see that area in the meantime.I had my children young (they are both girls) - before I knew anything about men, relationships etc but as I've grown up alongside them...I've learned from them and taught them so many things. I've personally tried to discourage them from natural child birth and suggested they adopt if they want to have children in future- to spare their bodies the damage I see and show them on mine, except they think my scars aren't ugly enough so it hasn't put them off unfortunately lol.Motherhood is just another thing in life, one can learn how to balance - self care is paramount. I still have a lot of independence because I have a supportive family/network of friends...I hope you have the same now and in future, should you ever find yourself in the role of mother and that you gained some positive perspective from me sharing my story with you.All the best.

 

[marybluesky]

Thanks MeltingPot247 Glad to read your comment. While I can't be happy for the hardship you've gone through, at least someone agrees with me. Most women just say "children are sweet... what's wrong with you???"

 

[Trojina]

Hello becalm!I'm trying to be open and undestand the truth, so my question is: "If I keep on searching for the truth, how my view toward motherhood will be?"My opinion of motherhood is the exact opposite of yours: I see absolutely no joy in it.The unfair partsregnancy: physical and mental suffering- losing your shape.Child labor: Horrible pain.Nurturing: physical suffering and losing your shape+ losing your body's calecium.The whole process of child rearing: losing your life, not being able to enjoy the things you enjoyed once, having a parasite....While men just enjoy sex and lose NOTHING. NOTHING.Too unfair.

There aren't any stay at home dads where you live ? Or dads that share the childcare ? Where I live I'm almost as likely to see a dad pushing a buggy as a mum. Also there are dads who are single parents.


I think the point about losing your body shape is an irrelevance - you will lose it anyway and then you will die. Also I know a lot of women who look better after birth than before.


It's not clear or rather you haven't distinguished between it being unfair of Nature or unfair of the social reality/system of it.


As far as nature goes calling it unfair is like arguing that the sky looks blue. All species on the planet have a carrier and birther of the infant plus an impregnater -possibly some kinds of animals don't but even in plant life there's male and female.


I think it would help you to separate out into strands the different aspects here rather than just lump it altogether as unfair. That might actually be seen in your reading. I mean generally with this line one finds oneself in a situation of collapse of some kind but is pulled out of it or through it via connections. I wonder here if the string of fishes is a series of things or issues you've connected up that could be, with some thought, separated out for your benefit. It's an auspicious line so I think working steadily through your thoughts and feelings on this is good for you. Detaching form your views is also good (20) you have some very different concepts all crammed into one bag. If you take those different ideas out of that bag and look at them you maybe won't feel so overwhelmed by your refusal of all this.


I wonder if you are arguing a case for not having children for yourself but doing that by saying there's no joy, they are parasites etc. Now anyone can surely see just by glancing around that people do experience huge joy in their children and that children whilst dependent when adult become the care givers to the parent. Not always full on but they are there to offer support to the parents hence children are regarded as one's future insurance policy in some cultures indeed often in this one.

But does that mean you have to have children ? No. Too often people who choose not to have kids are thought of as 'selfish' when actually having children can be far more selfish. People are in part having children just to satisfy their own emotional needs, to give them status, because their friends are doing it and so on and so on. Too often it is just assumed to be the 'next thing to do'. Also the planet is over populated and we don't actually need more children in the world so when people make out their have children as such a great sacrifice to the world I think well generally speaking no one forced you - If every woman in the world had kids we'd we even more over populated.

So if you don't want kids right now that is an absolutely valid and responsible choice for you. I can't imagine though where you see 'no joy' - I mean you've seen parents, fathers too, delight in their kids surely ?

But you should feel okay not to have them and that can be difficult as I think childless people get patronised a lot by some parents who can assume everyone wants what they wants and feel threatened by people who don't use children to validate their existence.

I'm not sure about the cast except I do think you need to separate your objections out in your own head as in


1. The role of nature - well in a matriarchal society the ability to give birth might be celebrated as the greatest achievement. Indeed some have said men were jealous of a woman's capacity to birth they took all other creativity for themselves.


It's a trial of course but also a massive gift to bear children because that bond between mother and infant simply won't be known in any other relationship. People say the quality of love is something they have never known before, that they would willingly die for their children and even mediocre parents say things like that which makes me think knowing that strength of love elevates a person to selflessness they may not otherwise have experienced.


2. Your point of ruining the body. Well in a sense it is what your body is totally designed for - even your moods are directed by hormones. My personal view is that it is a great evil this slavery to the perfect form - it doesn't bring happiness only competition and envy and I must say I find it a heinous crime to see healthy bodies butchered for the sake of a bigger backside or a bigger chest - it's terrible, I'm not even sure why it's legal except for deformities in young people and so on.


3. Parasites. Another evil in our society that you have fallen prey to believing is that dependence is to be scorned, is wrong but we all started dependent and we will end as dependent and we will all be dependent through illness or other things in our lives. That's not being a parasite that is all part of the human experience of caring for one another in the most intimate ways.



So I think for you you maybe need to make this an intellectual exercise, you know stop just lumping things together that don't belong together and come to think of it that is reflected in the relating hexagram, hexagram 20, viewing. I also suspect you are trying to justify not wanting kids to yourself but it is actually fine not to have them -


And finally thank you for bringing this question which is hard to share but is a question of great substance and depth.

 

[rosada]

"How my view changes?"
23.5 Talks about fish being strung together - perhaps this refers to further life experiences linking up and ultimately giving you...
20. a larger perspective.

One thing I've noticed in the last couple of years now that I'm at the age where many of my elders have died and grandchildren and great grandchildren have come on the scene, is that it is frekin' uncanny how the looks and characteristics of the older generation are appearing in the younger kids. I mean, it's enough to make you wonder if little Suzie isn't in fact Great Aunt Mary reincarnate?
Motherhood may not be a stroll through the park but consider that the life you give birth to may literally be your own...

 

[Trojina]

"How my view changes?"
23.5 Talks about fish being strung together - perhaps this refers to further life experiences linking up and ultimately giving you...
20. a larger perspective.

One thing I've noticed in the last couple of years now that I'm at the age where many of my elders have died and grandchildren and great grandchildren have come on the scene, is that it is frekin' uncanny how the looks and characteristics of the older generation are appearing in the younger kids. I mean, it's enough to make you wonder if little Suzie isn't in fact Great Aunt Mary reincarnate?
Motherhood may not be a stroll through the park but consider that the life you give birth to may literally be your own...

I think that's a really good angle on 23.5, that would be good for wikiwing . Are you going to put it in there ?

 

[radiofreewill]

Hi marybluesky,

"If I keep on searching for the truth, how my view toward motherhood will be?"

23.5 to 20 ~ To your isolation (not-knowing the truth) comes penetrating clarity ~ be watchful for a gift of insight (into truth).

You asked how your 'view' of motherhood would change if you continue to pursue the truth?

My reading is to stay open to whatever unfolds in your life ~ seeing it for what it is in the present moment, as it happens ~ versus looking to confirm how you feel about it speculatively, in advance?

Hold open the possibility that things might change?

For instance, you might undergo a change of perspective and decide that the only meaningful life is a shared life, and suddenly having a child becomes the gold standard of the shared life experience for you, despite the downsides that discourage you today?

Or, or, or...your experiences might also serve to confirm that your intuition was right all along ~ you were meant to be child-free ~ now you know it ~ and so you're totally at peace with it?

In either case, imho, the yi is saying that you will get the benefit of 'knowing' the truth with clarity by simply observing your experience from the witness position without filtering it through preconceived notions?

That's how your 'view' on motherhood can change as you continue to pursue truth.

I hope this helps!

 

[marybluesky]

Nine months have past since I started this thread... and very fast. Can't believe it somehow!

Anyway, I can't help myself seeing motherhood as a symbol for woman's destruction; annihilation.
Having a prominent Artemis archetype doesn't help either.

 

[radiofreewill]

Thanks for the update, marybluesky!

You seem to know ~ for the time being, at least ~ that you won't be going down the path of Motherhood anytime soon?

So, what to do now? Romance is easy! What goal would be truly worthy of your focused energy now?

I have a suggestion for your consideration: Why not call-up Artemis and slay the beast that splits us all apart, men and women, alike ~ Ego ~ and then see what truth remains? 23.5 to 20?



Of course, this is not easily done! However, imho, it is do-able...

Here's a brief, but complete, "Guide to the Hunt" from the great Indian sage, Ramana Maharshi, as summarized by one of his students, the great translator Maurice Frydman ("I am That"):

Ramana's Teaching

If you can be the hero of this story, then you will have given birth to your own Freedom.

May the Force be with you!

 

[rosada]

Interesting that you are so aware of the down side of motherhood, the negatives that so many of us would consider minor compared to the positives. Perhaps you are on the cutting edge of consciousness here, perhaps you are seeing the reality of what’s ahead that so far the mainstream has refused to acknowledge. We live in a time where overpopulation is destroying our planet and yet even discussing birth control is discouraged. Indeed it’s unthinkable to say anything other than “Congratulations!” when someone announces the arrival of yet another mouth to feed. The joys of parenthood are real but until the negatives are acknowledged they will continue to build until finally the reality that in this day and age where women must work outside the home and schools have become holding cells, motherhood frankly sucks. Your viewpoint that motherhood is over rated may seem extreme but maybe you are simply ahead of your time and seeing a truth yet to be acknowledged.

 

[marybluesky]

Thanks rosada! I find your comment complimenting So you see my aversion to motherhood, as indicated in the reading, metaphorical: nowadays bringing a child doesn't create life as it did before, but contributes to the earth's destruction. I hadn't seen it in this light- maybe it indeed carries such a message in an unconscious level.

My more conscious reasons are so personal, although I can't explain this hatred completely, as other women, too, see what I see but don't feel this way. I've never met a girl with such a dark perception of motherhood- in fact I see no positives in it. Maybe it's strange, but I don't even find young mothers happy. They seem more stressed and nervous, whether they work outside home or not (I live in a traditional society where many mothers are housewives). To be honest I don't know what is joyful about child rearing. Breast-feeding is ugly in my eyes. So is potty-training, changing diapers, nursing. And all are the female role. I know I'm not forced to choose this path in this age and day, however can't disregard the fact that if a baby is to come, it's the woman who carries all this burden, naturally or socially.

Then there is the huge injustice that the child ruins the woman's life and body but not at all the man's, as I mentioned in the initial post. I can't imagine how frustrated I would be if I'm pregnant and physically disturbed while the baby's father can run, climb the mountains, hang out with his friends wherever they go, drink... and I don't talk about sex and orgasm. Even thinking about it infuriates me.

 

[friendlysquirrel]

Hi marybluesky,

I'm a 48 year old woman and i want you know know I've pretty much felt the same was as you all my life. I had 2 abortions early on - no grief, just relief. It's the anti-abortion movement that scares me.

I've never desired children, and I don't think many women are prepared for what they are getting into and once they are there - they just have to deal with it. Women in Canada- where I live - still sadly do bear the brunt of the raising duties - although this is changing. I think about 1 in 10 parents do seem sincerely ready and excited to be parent though. They should be the ones to do it - with lots of community support.

There is a lot of pressure on women to have babies. I know my own mind but I've constantly had to rebuff other people telling me they know better my whole life.

I think we need to work hard to reach out to other to preexisting humans - to create bonds and care for these people - not make new humans - if we are able.

Other women/parents I think want to fix something they didn't like about their childhood. I get that - but I am doing it in the form of home renovations I always wanted to do - but didn't know how to do or didn't have money to do - as a child.

In the past people had children as farm labourers or heirs. It's not all sunnyshiny childhood/parental love all the time.

And I think environmentally we need to cut down on the population - so that's important too. We all have a 100 year (approx) expiry date.

 

[legume]

Nine months have past since I started this thread... and very fast. Can't believe it somehow!

Anyway, I can't help myself seeing motherhood as a symbol for woman's destruction; annihilation.
Having a prominent Artemis archetype doesn't help either.

thank you for the update after 9 straight months, this is a very interesting take on this topic so can't help but join in

personally never saw this as unfair, actually more of a gift to women in a sense of being given innate ability to create life. and actually having a choice how and when to use it. i remember being happy as a kid to be born a girl, not a boy on the other hand, my last relationships hit a rough patch when we came to a weird realisation that everyone has different vision for the future. i always saw myself with a child, but not necessarily married, while, although he wanted kids, he also wanted to know there would be at least a "civil sacrament" behind it, i guess.
there were other reasons for which we grew apart, but as i went on this single journey i noticed myself seeing some social roles as quite unfair. i come from a culture, where women working full time are still, in a way, expected to take care of the house, groceries, cooking, cleaning and children... there are of course cases of responsible single dads or even responsible couples that managed to establish true partnership, yet in most cases i still come across this masculine mentality of "helping" with the chores, rather than sharing commitment. and i sometimes find myself wanting to have a wife rather than a husband

i think, as Trojina wrote and Rosada pointed out, the bottom line is the reason why people choose to be together and have children in the first place. more often than not, relationships are formed on the basis of fear of ending up alone, and similarly comes up the decision to have children. this of course is not a rule, but i see it as an undeniable part of reality.

also, as time went by in my singlehood, i realised that what i took for an "inborn" vision of my future - me and my prodigy - is, first of all, not inborn at all (can any of the ideas or visions we have be inborn?). and second of all, when i felt completely ok with the idea of possibly never having an offspring, another thought came. why not, if it doesn't happen in, let's say next 10 years and my life is not anymore in chaos then adopt a child? and this felt even more ok than the previous thought.

i'm letting my mind flow, in hope it's somehow relevant. seeing motherhood as a symbol of destruction reminds me of someone very close to me who is in a commited relationship and says she really wants kids but every month is angry at the unfairness of the universe that she has to endure discomforts of her period. maybe for as long as we have trouble accepting some part of oursevels, in this case our femininity, be it menstruation or childbearing, we are blocking this feminine energy from free flowing?

i'd like to see men and women as equal, but not in the way of equalizing or uniformity, but rather each as equally unique and valuable with their own inner compass balancing the inherent inseparable yin and yang qualities that make us individual. in that sense, the idea of childbirth becomes just a concept pertaining to the yin energy, from which yang is born.

going back to your original question and reading, i believe I Ching might be telling you that staying on your current path will help you find inner peace and shed some light on the "shadow" of the soul, or the inferior elements of it. all this by contemplation, attaining or maintaining the "correct view".

i find it interesting how specific I Ching appears to be in giving just one line answer and placing it in a context. considering that the next line of 23 would mean completely splitting apart from the inferior element, then in a broader sense, i'd see this reading, specifically line 5, as a stop on a journey (changing the bus or means of transport and noticing how the view - hex 20 - outside of the window changes) from 23 to 24, where the turning point can be understood as a new beginning.

from Bradford: Fan Yao 20.5: observing our own lives, a noble does no harm (related line of resulting hexagram from the reading)

in the Secret of the Golden Flower, the next hex, 24 can be understood as stepping on a path of self-realisation or awakening in the process of "turning around the light", here's a website that can much better illustrate what i mean, with the pictures of spiritual embryo in buddha's belly