Need your interpretation!

[sandor]

Hi, friends!
Asking why I still was on earth, meaning what the reason was for me to still be alive, having felt rather depressed and not really enjoying life for the past 5 years... My question was to "claim" the Universe an explanation that would probably throw light into my mind as to what my task is, if there is any at all.
I got Hex 25.1.2.5 turning into Hex 64.
Thanks for sharing! Any idea will be very welcome.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Based on your questions they seem to cover issues of:

(1) values
(2) what could be/is not/could have been
(3) being reactive.

This gives us an overall focus on hexagram 02 where there is a need for identity of some form. In this realm the identity will be achieved THROUGH the surrounding context, not directly from you - IOW you need to get involved locally - be it community aid, politics, club, church, etc etc and through that involvement with the context, with devotion to 'another' shall come your sense of identity and so of personal achievement.

Chris.

 

[stuart]

I think that this means that you should procede inocently forward not looking for any future reward.The world is not an ideal place for anyone.I think you will endure your fate through the obstructions.Line 5 seems to say you have fallen ill(depressed)-but will recover.Are you being to hard on yourself ?.Hex 64 could be lifes journey crossing the lake carefully like an old fox.
As for your task or vocation.line 2 of 25 seems to say looking for future reward before you have time to allow the seed to come to frutation.My guess is your life will change at some stage if you just move forward inocently trying not to change anything before it is ready for change.I often think that when we arrive at a certain age and look back we will see that it was necessary for some things to be the way they were.
May the sage go with you

 

[void]

I sympathise having asked similar questions myself and getting very similar answers. I guess it means its enough just to be living your life for its own sake, being who you are pure and simple is value enough. Some people seem to have a clear mission in life, like a very strong sense of direction and purpose. Others don't, we just live on the planet not quite sure exactly what we are supposed to be doing here, lol. Well I've pondered these answers alot having cast such them so often lately - all i can think is that scheming and looking for the great 'mission' is not required, just live your life out. I agree that when life is not such fun it makes you wonder why you should go on with it. However it may turn out that once we let go of our desire to make some meaningful storyline out of our lives it may spontaneously become more joyful ?

Sounds like the Yi says you are on the right path whether you know it or not (line 1) and I agree with Stuart line 5 is acknowledging you have been depressed but that this will simply pass. Line 2 can stump me a bit..uum just living for the sake of it I suppose, doing the next thing that presents itself or needs to be done without analysing where it will get you or anything like that.

 

[sandor]

Thanks Chris, Stuart, Void... I simply read and re-read your feedback and words make sense and let me feel better, more confident.
Void, I think you are right. Life is meaningful itself.
What about complementary Hex 64?? Any ideas? Sandor.

 

[rosada]

Hi Sandor,

I see 64 as emphasizing that the "Innocence" of 25 is to be continually renewed, tand he importance of not becoming discouraged as we seem to repeat the same lessons, the same cycles yet again. I also see it as meaning it is valuable to celebrate milestones along the way, that even though the journey is never ending it is still right and appropriate to give ourselves a pat on the back for having made it this far.

Rosada

 

[micheline]

25...your life is as it is now, no need to have anxiety or try to fix anything. be innocent of judgement.
64....it ain't over yet, there are things yet to unfold. the mosiac is not finished, the missing pieces will create the full picture, and later it will all make sense

 

[taqiyya]

You still look for a cure, but use no medicine, there will be joy. There is nothing to do, for you. It is done without your toil.

 

[bruce]

Agreeing with all of the above.

If life has no meaning, it can still live. Meaning of life isn't as big as living. If there is no life, then be curious and creative and make life, even in small things.

A subtle value of 64 is to observe what is becoming, life unfolding, not yet having or needing a meaning.

 

[sandor]

Thanks, friends. Rosada, Micheline, Taqiyya, Bruce, from my heart, thank you very much.
My mind is getting the idea and conveying it to my heart...
Best wishes to you all and thanks for sharing, Sandor.

 

[pushpaw]

Hello,

May I offer a few ideas? This was such a heartfelt question, so, just another thought about the reading.

There is the possibility that as long as you remain innocent, you will not be complete. As long as you maintain your original nature, as long as the second line continues to be your path, and as long as you have the illness of being without blame, this unsatisfactoy feeling, this dissatisfaction, will follow you.

The cure may be in the illness. The bitterness, the sorrow, is medicinal.

You ARE innocent, and this keeps you entrenched in the Changes.

 

[rosada]

Love this idea, Pushpaw. I'm playing with it here using the hexagrams surrounding 25..

22. Innocently beliving life is forever bliss.

23. Finding out it's not.

24. Okay, start over again.

25. (Claiming to be) Innocent.

26. Innocent? Whatdoyamean "Innocent"?! Did you learn NOTHING from all we went through with 23? Don't go claiming Innocence here, Friend, unless you also want to admit you're a complete fool too...
--

So what I'm saying is that getting 25. Innocence is perhaps not a confirmation that one is indeed Innocent, but rather a poke that still being naive at this stage of the game means it's time to renounce Innocence. Means you gotta start paying closer attention, get more involved in the game. risk being wrong, Being "without blame" is no longer a virtue. Your Beginner's Luck has run out and from now on the only way you're going to learn is to recognize you're where you are because of choices you did or did not make and the only way you can improve your situation is to start making more concious choices, and taking responcibility for the results of those choices. Then instead of just endlessly being tossed up and down be The Changes, perhaps one can recognize one's connection to them and flow with them.

I don't know if this has anything to do with Sandor's situation, but it's advice I needed to hear! Thanks!

 

[void]

Nowhere in 25, except maybe line 6 does it say 'renounce innocence'. On the contrary it says if one is not innocent then one falls into error. You can make choices and still do so with innocence, not trying for a particular outcome.

The nature of the time is that maybe you seem to have less choice as the unexpected happens. I think the last two posts refer to 4 more than 25.

Interesting ideas but I don't agree.

 

[lightofdarkness]

The skeletal form, the infrastructure, of 25 is described by analogy to 45. The focus of 25 in particular is to rise in a congregration and 'say your thing' ignoring known consequences or not even thinking of consequences in that 'what needs to be said must be said'.

I am sure many of you have experienced doing this first hand or have been in a congregation where someone has done it. The expressions can at times be 'out of context' for the congregation (or showing a lack of understanding and so association with innocence) but is very much 'in context' for the speaker - they are expressing a part of their 'small world network'.

The trigrams read "with enlightenment comes singlemindedness" where the 'enlightenment' can be one's personal 'mind blowing' experience that is announced to the congregation where in fact it is not new and many 'already know'.

OR it can be the expression of enlightenment that no one yet understands such that the expressee is considered naive, immature, a 'left fielder', outsider etc etc

IF we focus on the '24-ness' of 25, and so 'flip' the bottom line, we get 12 in that the 'beginning' of 25 is from a perspective of experiencing some form of 'attack' on one's beliefs etc and so the 'need' to defend against that attack (or just promote that belief in a context where it has not been covered as yet - as far as the expressee is concerned!)

This moves us into issues of problem solving mixed with issues of identity seeking.

The 'correct sequence' of 25, its 63-ness is described by analogy to 56:

101010 (63)
100111 (25)
------
001101 (56)

This shows a focus on issues of loyalty to someone/something when in a context that is 'not' that someone/something - we are 'far away' from our place to which we are loyal.

The act of standing an expressing 'X' is thus associated with loyalty to that 'X' and we see the 'drive' than can force someone to suddenly get up and let loose with something where it can be interpreted as lacking understanding by the others in the congregation (and so smirks, smiles, frowns etc can meet the expression)

Chris.

 

[lightofdarkness]

BTW note that structurally, 25 shares space with 17. 17 is unconditional in 'finding' someone/something to follow whereas 25 is conditional, there is a particular established.

 

[waveringdragon]

Hi Sandor,
I read your question but I have'nt read any of the other responses to it so a lot of what I say, if not all, has probably been covered already. I just find I respond with greater clarity of mind this way.
To me 25 is very similar to 42. 42 to me very much represents a blessing. A gift from the divine if you like. Whereas 25 represents the innocent nature that we are all gifted with at birth. To me 25 is very often about attuning to that inner spiritual nature. It's about responding to life on that innocent level rather than responding to life from within the mind. It's about responding to life as an infant responds to it's mother rather than according to the dictates of our thoughts. In my experience it is very often about getting beyond wants of the mind. What I very often find is that once I get beyond these wants and leave them behind I realise how meaningless they really are in the context of my life. Very often I just attune to a peaceful feeling within and go with that feeling. Anything that disturbs that peaceful feeling, that peace of mind is the wrong way to go. It is very difficult to hold on to for long but it has led me into some very interesting experiences. 25.5 to me is nearly always about getting beyond these wants. Very often they are wants that are imposed upon my mind according to the enviroment in which I live. Possibly prevailing attitudes or attitudes that prevailed in my upbringing which don't have any real meaning in my life but which others around me may attatch importance to.
25.1 and 2 would be saying to you do what you do because you feel from within yourself that it is the right thing to do without looking for any particular respose or result but let what you do be enough in itself. It is always important to keep in mind the distinction between a spiritual feeling and a spiritual feeling.
64 in the context of your question would say to me to possibly think of myself as a work in progress, something not quite defined. it would say avoid striving for specific definitions of being but be a verb rather than a noun.
All the best,
Paul

 

[bruce]

Chris, would you say that 17 is aimed toward the ether realms, whereas 25 is aimed toward simple and practical living?

 

[lightofdarkness]

Hi Bruce - some reflections:

If you review the sequence of thunder-based hexagrams we have:

24, 27, 03, 42, 51, 21, 17, 25

In this realm, using the binary sequence and so allowing us to 'fold' opposites, so we have:

dampended/balanced - exaggerated

24 - 25
27 - 17
03 - 21
42 - 51

What is indicated here is following being an exaggeration of infrastructure - in 27 the focus is on 'filling' after the infrastructure has been set up; in 17 this 'vagueness' is exaggerated where we put more energy into mediating that 'filling', that infrastructure, through 'following', we have found something to follow. 25 IS more personal, more particular and comes with a competitive 'top' (heaven in top - singlemindedness) as compared to a more cooperative top of 17 (lake in top - intensity in expression)

The energy differences in the sequence of hexagrams reflects movement from a 'balanced' state (24) to increasingly mediation-driven states and so show the different aspects of a thunder-base. IOW there is an overall bias to 'return or 'begin' or 'begin again' etc. In 24, the hexagram of basic potentials in this octet, we have "with/from enlightenment comes dewvotion to (absolute trust in) another/others"

The singlemindedness of 25 reflects a more personal perspective and so issues of mediation going on; there is perpetual wrestling as such ;-) but the reaction to the 'enlightenment' is "this is RIGHT" and so the singlemindedness develops (from/with enlightenment (thunder bottom) comes singlemindedness (heaven top) and so the push to say things.

As 45 is the 'skeletal', 27-ness, form of 25, so 12 is the skeletal form of 17. Given this skeletal form so 17 does appear to cover more 'ether' realms than 25.

If we put all of the pairs of the binary sequence (02,23 to 43,01) into a column of pairs, then 17 'fits' under the column of 02, 25 'fits' under the column of 23 so there is a 'general' description here associating 17 with unconditional devotion to another. 25 gets more into the actions of 23 with the focus on removing the chaff from the wheat and so a conditional approach to a faith/belief etc - a more personal focus (in 23 the focus spans 'housekeeping' to the high priest/priestess asserting the 'one true' faith) ... note the general sense even here of "this is RIGHT" and so a sense of a particular over the 'general' of unconditional devotion etc of the 02 column.

We could write a book for EACH of these pairs but that could get 'lengthy' when we get into the XOR stuff as well! - I think the above gives enough general 'vibe' to aid in pinning-down the differences across the sameness of 17,25.

Chris.

 

[bruce]

It does indeed. Thanks, Chris.

 

[pushpaw]

Hi Rosada, Hi Void,

Like very much both of your entries. To clarify my twisted position, 25 changes into 64, a dynamic hexagram of danger and peril, a small move determines starting again. What could be more natural, more innocent, than a fox to relax his tail? How could one possibly blame a fox for such a natural impulse? To relax our guard, to return over and over, seems it must be our nature. Line 6 in 64 allows us it is not error to drink, to celebrate, but to do so sends us into loss of reality.

Sandor has all the best lines in 25. If he does not let his guard down, if he is firm, if he takes the bitterness of this sorrow, owns it. It is his.

 

[rosada]

Thank you for your thoughts, Pushpaw. I love the insight on the little fox "innocently" relaxing his tail!

I have to acknowledge, that as Void points out, 25 says nothing about "renouncing" Innocence. It's just that sometimes it feels like holding to the idea of "going with the flow" and letting It happen without effort etc. etc. actually manefests that you're sitting on the sidelines watching life pass you by....

 

[void]

'Going with the flow', 'letting it happen' might be viewed as laziness or indifference, but I think this situation is expressed elsewhere in the Yi JIng 16,3 for example.

I don't think 25 is just about sitting back doing nothing. Being 'innocent' may mean actually 'doing' quite alot, if thats what ones nature and the moment requires. Line 2 infact urges you just 'to get on with it' without too much thought.

 

[rosada]

Yeah, Void, you're right. Actually you could say 25 encourages getting out in the world and experiencing life. I was refering more to the over all feeling I get from the I Ching, the constant admonishments to calm down and be patient. Where are the hexagrams that say, "Run up your credit cards, you're worth it!" or "You're right, gosh darn it, speak up!"? They're probably in there somewhere, I just don't usually toss them. LOL, maybe this could be the begining of a new translation, "The Why Wait Watcher's Guide to the I Ching!"

 

[sandor]

Thank you, Friends. Thanks to you all for the time you?ve shared with me so far. I could not even foretell that my tossing the coins at this question would develop in such a deepening of the I Ching.
Thank Pushpaw, Rosada, Void, Chris, Paul, Bruce...
From the bottom of my heart, best wishes to all of you! Sandor, from Buenos Aires.-

 

[void]

Yeah Rosada you're right it does seem the Yi Jing counsels non doing more than doing, (I think someone bought this up before here)or maybe its just the way we interpret it ? Non doing might not be 'doing nothing' as such but allowing self to fall in with the natural flow of things (which as I said may be being busy) Anyway I know what you mean, waiting seems a strong theme in the Yi Jing. Mind you I think busyness is so over rated in our culture, its almost become a kind status symbol in itself, as if running yourself ragged was virtuous in some way.

 

[heylise]

I think the relating hexagram is the 'sea', or the time. And 64 is a very good description of Sandor's "throw light into my mind as to what my task is, if there is any at all."

The positive side of 64 is its potential for creation, nothing 'is' yet, and everything is possible if you let it become. But the negative side is, that you can feel totally lost in this nothing.

The way out is not by finding motivation, or changing 'things', it is in simply living. Living like they say about the truth, but changed a little bit: living, living wholly, and nothing but living. Which is very much hex.25

LiSe

 

[bruce]

Shirt-tailing LiSe's comments on 64:

There is a difference here between depression and feeling lost. But feeling lost can lead to depression if you convince yourself that you're depressed.