Next step - hex 18, line 2 is confusing me

[lilian]

Dear all,

I asked the Yi for advice: What step next? and got Hex 18, lines 1,2 and 4 moving. I'm still brooding over it, mainly line 2, about the "divination" or "determination".

The key to the translation/interpretation seems to the word Zhen or Chen: test by ordeal; inquiry by divination and its results; righteous; firm; separating wheat from chaff; the kernel, the proven core (Ritsema&Karcher)

How do I apply this to my question? Do I have to go about the work in a yielding way (Wilhelm)? Asking the I Ching for help won't work (Karcher and Wu Jing-Nuan)? Move and live (LiSe)! Or am I completely off?

Wilhelm:
Setting right what has been spoiled by the mother.
One must not be too persevering.

Wu Jing-Nuan
The business of the mother's, poisened.
Unable to make a divination.

Karcher:
Managing the mother's corruption.
This does not allow a divination.

LiSe:
Stem-mother's decay. No determination possible.
(You exist, you live, but if nobody sees, then you almost cannot see it yourself anymore. So make them hear, live visible, audible, touchable. Don't just happen to be on the world but live. Make everyone see and hear, make yourself see and hear. Move!)

K + R. Huang:
Taking up the mother's work.
Inappropriate.

Happy and grateful for any insight
LiLian

 

[gene]

LiLian

I am not sure I understand the question. #18 is usually a hard one for me too. Don't get it too often. But when I do, it is somewhat puzzling. If you are asking the question, do I have to do my work in a yielding way?...what does yielding mean to you in this respect?

Gene

 

[louise]

Lilian, I take the lines here to mean how you approach rectifying some situation that has been deteriorating for some time. Each line giving a different emphasis on how rigorous you need to be.
Line 2 I take as advising you to be fairly gentle and sensitive in your correction - like a mother.
It appears there is a situation needing reappraisal, correction and work - you can't leave it (line4 and 1) or it will get worse, but you need to do it in a gentle way, not be too harsh in making good whats gone wrong. Hope that makes some sense ?

 

[lilian]

Gene

Thanks for your answer. Maybe I don't understand "yielding" the right way, and the word fell into the language gap? I mean passive, receptive, feminine, soft, not too much vigour - or maybe, as Wilhelm puts it "not too persevering".

Meanwhile I found a comment of Hilary from Nov. 2001, answering a question of Kestral:
-----
Line 2: ?Ancestral mother?s corruption. Constancy is not possible.?
(It seems that the word usually translated as ?managing? or ?dealing with? actually means ?ancestral?. It doesn?t make all that much difference, as having found the source of the corruption it will evidently need dealing with.)
The difficult part of this hexagram (at least in my experience) is finding what it is in your own inner depths that corresponds to the moving lines. At line 2, the problem is with the mother ? with nurturing, gentleness? A lot depends on what you associate with your mother (or even with the whole idea of the feminine). Constancy means the divination (the answers you hear when you listen?) and your consistent, determined response to it; something of a test of your persistence. Yet this quality is somehow not in harmony with the time: perhaps it is too single-mindedly determined, even too righteous. I think this implies that the problem is too close to you to be dealt with through detachment ? the Step of Change (created when just this line changes) is 52, suggesting that sitting with this quietly rather than seeking to grasp and analyse it could bring results.
-----

Since you say, it's a hexagram hard for you to understand too, maybe this is of help to you too.

LiLian

 

[lilian]

Louise

Thanks for your help. Yes, maybe - as usual - I got lost in details of the different translations and need to see the overall picture.

For me it is new to understand several moving lines neither as single choices nor as a sequence of steps, but as a combination of advice. And it makes sense to me like that.

Could you please explain to me, what the word "reappraisal" means?

Thanks to both of you
LiLian

 

[gene]

Hi Lillian

i guess my question about the meaning of yielding had more to do with how does that relate to work? Because to me work is by its very nature an active thing and not yielding. So it seems to become somewhat of a contradiction in terms to speak of yielding and work in the same context. To me, problems with either the mother or father, both being ancestry, means to me trouble in times past, and now it is time to correct the error. I do have a hard time sometimes understanding the difference between problems caused by the father and problems caused by the mother. Although it could refer sometimes to problems caused by overexertion, versus problems caused by laziness or unwillingness to take adequate action.

Gene

 

[lilian]

Hi Gene

As you stated in an earlier post to a different question of me, you seem to be good in seeing the general picture rather than details.

I'm always better with examples, so I tell you of my own (female) ancestors - maybe you'll see the overview as well as the relation to the I Ching.

> time to correct the error. I do have a hard time sometimes
> understanding the difference between problems caused by the
> father and problems caused by the mother. Although it could
> refer sometimes to problems caused by overexertion, versus
> problems caused by laziness or unwillingness to take
> adequate action.

Hmmm, "laziness or unwillingness to take adequate action" is not the right expression to me - often there is no possibility in social conditions.

My mother is 80 now. She was a very unconventional, creative, powerful young woman. As probably most women, despite this she still had a strong desire for an intimate relationship and family. Because she didn't know how to balance the nurturing of the family and the nurturing of her Self, she slowly denied her Self. From where could she have known better? My grandmother couldn't be a role-model. Also 50 years ago, woman were (much more) financially dependent on their husbands.

So my mother passed this "pattern" on to me. I rebelled in different ways, often choosing the opposite, which means that this balance was/is not natural and easy. Also it's easier to overcome such role-models in the head than in the heart. To me, that's: problems caused by female ancestors.

If you want to comment on this, I'll appreciate it!
LiLian

 

[gene]

Well, LiLian, I don't know exactly what to say. When I said something about translations, I wasn't referring to any particular person or persons. It's not meant to be a literal statement. And it is not meant to referral to male versus female. Only the concept of it and nothing more. And also, I wasn't aware, and maybe that's not what you mean anyway, that the question might have anything to do with actual ancestors. I would never knowingly do anything on this board that would disparage anyone or anything important to anyone. Hopefully it wasn't taken that way either. Just as a side note, my mother and my sister did not get along. They were both headstrong, much like each other. My sister used to always say, "I am never going to be like my mother." But as she got older, she once said, the older I get, and the more I try to not be like my mother, the more I find I am just like her. I am a lot like my dad too in many ways. My brother took after my grandfather. We were all similar but different. It is just human nature. And you know what? It runs in the family. Not only did my sister turn out just like her mother. My mother was just like her mother, and family members, (none alive now), have told me in the past, my mother's mother's mother was the exact same way too. I don't know. Says something about genes I guess. I mean, DNA genes, not this gene. Well, maybe this gene too

Gene

 

[lilian]

Hi Gene

Thank you for your answer. I know that you didn't mean to refer it to any particular persons.

For me, the Yi has several layers of meaning. So I took the next to me - my actual ancestors. You seem to see another layer. If you think it has nothing to to do with actual ancestors - what ancestors are meant?

BTW, I can feel with your sister. When younger, I also never wanted to be like my mother. Today I see her positive traits as well as her weaknesses.

Lilian

Are men like that too? Don't want to be like their fathers?

 

[hilary]

Thank you very much, Lilian and Gene, for carrying on quietly with what Yi is about while fires rage elsewhere.

I think this one can have a lot to do with actual ancestors - one reason why it is so awkward to interpret for someone else. Whole patterns of behaviour and thought can travel through families - the spiritual equivalent of DNA, maybe? - and perpetuate themselves unexamined. 18 takes them out and looks at them!

Of course, 'the father' can also mean 'everything about how you run life' and 'the mother', 'everything about how you sustain life' - just for an example. But quite a lot about how I run my life comes from my father. (And my reading for the year is 18 changing to 57.)

I would say follow your instincts on what this one is about, even more than usual.

Have to run (sorry!)

 

[gene]

Thanks Hilary

And LiLian, well I think it could refer to ancestors. I think so much depends on the question. I like Hilary's thoughts on it too.

As far as men not wanting to be like their father? I really don't know. There a few things about my father I would not want to emulate. For example, he had an extremely poor self image. I think I did too growing up because he was my role model as a very young child. On the other hand he was very humble. I can understand why he was that way, because his parents died when he was at a very early age. Or at least that is what he says. We have evidence now that his real name wasn't even what our name is. He is a mystery man. Lots of Scorpio in him. That part of him I am not like at all. Lots of things that just don't add up. But he is gone now. I guess I have a way of seeing both the good and the bad in a given trait. I have often said, if you want to know someone's strengths, look at their weaknesses, and if you want to know their weaknesses, look at their strengths.

I liked the show, "The Breakfast Club," I think it was called that. The sports guy who's dad pushed him to the limits, telling him, "you've got to win, I will accept no losers in this house." Or Johnny, who's dad gave him a pack of cigarrettes for Christmas, and said "Smoke up, Johnny." Yeah, I think our dad's can really push our buttons sometimes, but for me, why I just remember my dad sitting on the chair reading the newspaper, day after day. Never talked to us much. If I asked him for any kind of advice, he would just say, "I don't know."

Gene

 

[lilian]

Sorry for my late answer, I was out of town for a couple days.

Thank you Hilary, for your thoughts on the ancestors.

Yes, I think too, the traits we inherit - may they be "positive" or "negative" - that we are aware of, we can handle. But if they are unknown, they handle us.

Gene, maybe because your father was such a mystery man, saying "I don't know" - you are striving for knowledge and wisdom now? So he pushed the button for you, but just in another way...?

Thanks to you all for helping to lift the top of the can o'worms
Lilian

 

[gene]

Hi LiLian

That is very possible, I don't know. And there, I guess, I sound like my father. And, unlike my father, who just sat there reading his newspaper, I have always been a seeker of spiritual truth, which in an uncanny way, I may have partly gotten from my mother, but in a different way... she was very religious, but eventually I saw through that and saw the deeper path. But like my father, I read, not the newspaper, I could care less about that, except the comic strips, but on average, two books a week, often right in the bookstore, without buying them. Although I've spent a fortune on books too. Anyway, like father like son? When I first came home from the navy, I saw my father's army picture. What struck me was, we looked like twins. It amazed me.

Gene

 

[candid]

Hi Lilian,

Just a brief comment.

The objective here, I believe, is defining yourself and your own course. That is why the 'no divination' theme arises. No divining from your mother, father, friends or Yi. This is something which only you yourself can determine. The decay comes about when we look too much to other sources to determine what is right for us. This opens up LiSe's "can o worms" too. Life becomes terribly complicated when we look to our outside influences to determine a proper course of action for our own lives.

To achieve this view point requires both, the nurturing quality of a mother and the directive influence of a father. In order to find this balance requires stillness on your part. Hence, the relating 51. To find peace in your own decisions aside from relying solely on outside influences.

I believe this is what your reading is telling you.

Candid

 

[lilian]

Thanks Candid. I needed a day to "digest" your comment. Because you put into words what was beginning to dawn on me.

In the past, I had an eating disorder. I put 50 pounds between me and my emotions, my inner voice. Although I lost the weight few years back, It still was hard to connect with my inner voice, let alone trust it.

Now looking back, I realise it was not because I didn't hear it or it was too low, but because I was still looking for the answers at the wrong place - outside of myself.

So I will sit still until I know for certain what my inner voice is telling me. Thanks for teling me.

Gene, I can very well relate to your reading. For me, reading is not something I _want_ to do or not - it just reads. And when the bookshelves are full and my wallet empty, I go to the library.

Thanks to all for the tremendous help!! I'm very grateful!
Lilian

 

[willow]

Lilian, combining Candid's thought and your response... Actually, the relating hexagram is #30, not #51, (I think Candid misspoke there, although the emphasis on attending to yourself is still very appropriate), and #30 is The Clinging, or Fire.

The "clinging" concept for fire is the emphasis on the necessary relationship between the flame and the fuel. "Digestion" is an excellent analogy - it is a slow fire that only you can do.

When you say "So I will sit still until I know for certain what my inner voice is telling me," maybe it would help to see this sitting down as a process, not a one-time sit down with an outcome. After all, digestion is something you do every day. Assessing whether something is rotten meat or good food is something you do every day. And listening to your own inner voice, the quality of your personal fire is something you oftentimes don't just "get" but rather become familiar with over a long period of time.

 

[lilian]

Hi Willow

You are both right with the relating hexagram - Candid was referring to the relating hexagram of line 2 - #52 ( I guess 51 was a typing error).

I used the picture of "sitting down" because that's what is used in #52. Meaning the stillness of an inner focus to look for the answers. I'm aware that this will be an ongoing process, and there is probably not "one" answer. Maybe several, maybe changing.

As you stated, with _all_ the changing lines, the relating hexagram is 30 - I like your picture of the flame and the fuel, that have to be in balance. I like it better than my "digestion". It's something "to take along" with me.

Thanks for your thoughts
Lilian

 

[candid]

My apologies, both. Yes, I meant 52.

 

[willow]

And my apologies for missing the actual point due to the typo! Yes, sit and meditate on the balance of flame and fuel.

 

[lilian]

No need to apologize - the typo provided an additional insight!

Lilian