North Korea

[jesed]

Hi

In case anybody could be interested in this topic.

I asked to the Yijing "how is the best way to handle the North Korean nuclear crisis?".

The answer was Excess (28) wich tends to Influence (31)

My conclusion is:
The best way to handle the tension this crisis produces is avoiding coercitive measures, but implementing a fine work of diplomacy. This could release some tension, and made the storm doesn't start.
The question is: our leaders have the moral superiority to achieve this Path?

(Full analysis in http://changesonpolitic.blogspot.com/2006/10/north-koreas-nuclear-crisis.html)

What do you think?
Best wishes

 

[autumn]

This is the same hexagram Rosada got when she asked about overpopulation;

I just asked the I Ching, "What is Mother Nature's responce to this perceived over population problem?" I got 28.4.5 - 46.

 

[stevev]

How about ...


......... ===============
....... ==================
.......... ============
........... ==== ====
........... ==== ====
........... ==== ====
......... 12.1.2.3.4.5.6

.............. ->

........... ==== ====
........... ==== ====
........... ==== ====
......... ============
...... ==================
........ ===============
.............. 11

 

[jesed]

Hi Steve


Somehow, I feel "tension" fits better than "stagnation" (stagnation seems good description of the nuclear crisis with Iran).. but of course I can see the relevance of going from stagnation to peace.

What would be your conclusion about 12>11 in practical terms?

Thanks for comment

Best wishes

 

[jesed]

Hi autumn

Indeed. Overpopulation is another "tension" issue nowadays.

Tendential 46... achieve a higher point of view about it?

Best wishes

 

[stevev]

Hello Jesed

Somehow, I feel "tension" fits better than "stagnation"
<snip>
but of course I can see the relevance of going from stagnation to peace.
<snip>
What would be your conclusion about 12>11 in practical terms?

Of course my post was a joke, and "tension" doesn't look as much like a mushroom cloud as "stagnation" does. My conclusion is that it is still the case that we live with the M.A.D stalemate which in a strange way has bought nuclear peace, well at least we ain't launching ICBMs at each other.

There's two choices, laugh or cry !

 

[rosada]

What is the best way to handle the North Korean nuclear situation?

28.2 Reanimate
31. Negotiations

I understand there was an agreement in place that Bush broke less than a day after it was authorized having to do with ecconomic sanctions or something with North Korea, and that this test is to attract the world's attention to their ecconomic situation in hopes the agreement that was broken will be reinstated.

Sorry to be so blurry about the details. Picked it up on the news. Perhaps we'll hear more of this later.

 

[willowfox]

I asked to the Yijing "how is the best way to handle the North Korean nuclear crisis?".

The answer was Excess (28) wich tends to Influence (31)

hex 28.2 this bang has certainly given new life to the N.K. nuclear debate.

hex 31 the world (USA) has to try and persevere with the bozos in N.K., but in a peaceful manner, the use of force would be counter productive. The US has to encourage N.K. to talk with them but the US should be free from any ulterior motives. Of course, this will take time, so the US should stay still and not make such a song and dance of this affair, not provoke Kim into any further stupid actions. Otherwise, this tit for tat situation could well and truly get out of control. The world has to show N.K. how to follow, and to politely teach it not to try and lead, ie. showing off like a spoilt child. N.K. has to learn to repond to public opinion, if peace is to be achieved. Of course, if Kim continues to ignore good advise, then the world (US) will get absolutely sick and tired of him, which is happening at this very moment. If the US wants to influence N.K. then it has to be done by the US taking a more passive role, teaching as opposed to ordering, being receptive as opposed to being bossy, courting N.K. has to be done through ritual and debate. This relationship will take time and alot of care and attention.

 

[rosada]

There is a very clear discussion of North Korea's nuclear history and our options now by Jimmy Carter in the New York Times this morning.

 

[jesed]

Thanks Rosada and Willowfox for your comments

Best wishes

 

[autumn]

I looked at what Bradford says about this line, thinking it might be appropriate given its contemporary style.

"The withered poplar sprouts a new shoot. An older gentleman finds himself a maiden to marry. Nothing cannot be turned to advantage." The commentary describes deeply-felt, free-flowing life forces being awakened again in the older man.

Because the line describes the relationship between the renewal of energy in the older gentleman and the seduction of his new bride, I am inclined to think that political relationships between nations are represented relationally. Who is the older gentleman? The world? The US? North Korea? Or, is the bride North Korea, who should be influened?

I'm not sure; but from the point of US politics, one reading might cast the US as the older gentleman, and its "cause to stop nuclear proliferation", the new life and new political energy that it might use to its advantage politically throughout the world, to attempt to convince the world that the US supports peace instead of war. The "cause" of stopping nuclear proliferation is much more likely to draw the support of nations than our current international fiasco. So, new life is breathed into the political climate as nations come together to influence North Korea and other nations not to develop, test, or use these weapons.

 

[rosada]

NYTimes.com will let you read their headline news stories for free. The article by Jimmy Carter explains alot about what is going on with North Korea. He diplomatically points out that both sides felt last September's non-proliferation agreement had been compromised, but when you find out the details the clear impression is that Bush promised certain things and then renigged. N Korea is doing this to attract attention to their impossible situation. It is the US, nor North Korea by the way, who is refusing to talk, negotiate.

 

[stevev]

Who is the older gentleman? Or, is the bride North Korea?

Maybe Kim is the old man, and the new bride is a real hot bomb.

 

[autumn]

Maybe Kim is the old man, and the new bride is a real hot bomb.

That would make sense if the reading were an overview of the situation. Here, asking for advice on how the world should handle the crisis, I'd kind of doubt the advice is to celebrate the resurrection of the nuclear crisis. But then- I don't know what political party the I-ching belongs to. It's an interesting way to look at things.

 

[willowfox]

Hex 28.2 represents the time now I think. The *old man* would fit kim nicely and both *the withered poplar* and *old man* also fits North Korea nicely as well. North Korea is a much older nation than America and I don't think anyone calls the US an *old Man*. *Takes a young bride* could mean that this new game, the bomb, has given Kim/North Korea a new lease of life, a new way to carry on the fight, something to live for. The bomb is new, thus immature, this feeds the ailing North Korea and its leader, it gives them new vigor. Kim's/North Korea's new marriage to the bomb could give birth to a new and hopeful future for North Korea and its leader. They hope that the child will usher in a time of new prosperity for them.
If Kim/North Korea do indeed learn not to be so provocative and be more willing to listen and open up their country more then they would greatly benefit. It would also help everyone if the US was more receptive to N.K.'s needs and less busy trying to bring down its communist leaders. Left alone, communism will die out on its own and in its own time. The US should see that being passive will go much futher with N.K. than being aggressive.

 

[derek]

Hello Jesed, and Friends,

I’m a newcomer to this group, and I’m late in joining your thread (due to initial technical difficulties.)

The delay gave me time to mull over the ideas of H28 from various versions of the Yi. This hexagram sharply characterises North Korea’s top heavy governmental, and social structure. Over all is the sagging roof of an oppressive yet inherently weak government. From the top floor down, there is a massive army, a stupefied middle class, and a starving country population.

The threat of wide-spread starvation is also implicit in the paired sequence of H27, 28: Nourishment has been displaced by Excess. (That idea could also relate to Rosada’s question about overpopulation.) It suggests to me that imminent starvation is the real crisis in NK, not the event of its letting off a firework inside a mountain.

We generally expect the UN to do something meaningful when crises emerge, but H28 seems to apply equally to the UN’s groaning structure of heavy rhetoric, procedures, protocols and ineffective resolutions. The Yi’s metaphors often run through all aspects of a situation (as a fractal theme.)

What use, therefore, is there in hoping for a good outcome when the UN, characterised as Excess, faces up to an intransigent state, similarly portrayed? H28’s nuclear (!!) hexagram, H1 no less, seems to support this negative idea: H1 is not here in its overt and majestic role as The Creative. Rather, it suggests the belligerent attitude of all parties – a testosterone fuelled blast down the drag strip of military bravado.

Even if the UN were to be restrained in its response (unlikely,) that would shore up just one end of the situation’s creaking ridgepole. How is the world-that-cares to get access to the other end? I feel that the answer lies somewhere in that moving line 2 and the resultant H31. But I don’t see it at all clearly yet, and must mull things over some more. I do believe that the Yi takes into account the reality of human affairs in its answers. In other words, it won’t recommend that pigs should be given flying lessons.

 

[derek]

H28.2 proposes a marriage of opposites, but who the bride, who the groom? ‘This connects what belongs together.’ (Stephen Karcher) The resultant H31 continues the marriage theme but now the groom is rejuvenated as the youngest son. The ancient pictogram includes an axe. So the thought is let that which has been severed be re-united. H31 advocates the reunification of Korea as one nation, so rescuing the benighted people of North Korea. A long process, maybe, but an enduring solution.

In the short term, I don’t think the Yi is being dismissive with H28. H1 is still the heart of the hexagram. The W-B translation has a telling phrase in H31 – ‘prevent … excess and hold it within proper bounds.’ There is a place for strong action within proper bounds. And there’s that axe symbol in H31. For axe read Tomahawk missile. A duly authorised pre-emptive strike on the nuclear sites in NK, by the USA, would be a useful tactical venting of the West’s belligerent stance. Then let all sides work strategically and without belligerence for the reunification of the Korean people.

I give H31’s image the last word: cloud over mountain. The Japanese name for Korea, the old Korea, is Land of Morning Cloud.

 

[jesed]

Hi derek
Thanks for your comment

A Tomahawk as the best way?.. i don't think so

And how, after an "preventive attack", you could expect that all sides work without belligerence?

The quote from Wilhelm you use is interesting. Wilhelm talks that those propper bounds are what is right (fair). And (except for some belligerant peole), it is recognized than the "preven-attack theory" is not in accordance with International Law. It is not within propper bounds, in Wilhelm's sense.

Best wishes

 

[derek]

Hi Jesed,

I’m not personally advocating the use of Tomahawks against the nuclear sites, but I believe that the Yi can be disturbingly pragmatic and amoral on occasions. Besides, it is no stranger to war and must have supported aggressive acts many times in its history, depending on its own view of the right cause. I read the hexagrams and that’s what they meant to me .

You’re right to question how “all sides” could then work together without belligerence. Not all could, I grant you. Only the USA can deliver the pre-emptive strike, and I can see how the Yi might countenance that as a one off act. If, having put a stop to the immediate danger, the USA were to step back to let others lead, a more peaceful approach could then be pursued.

As I write, there is news of the UN Security Council’s resolution for sanctions and condemnation against North Korea. John Bolton for the USA has spoken forcefully. China’s representative has spoken less aggressively, so has Russia’s and Japan’s. The South Korean statement was strong in support of sanctions but balanced. Already some differentiation of attitudes is happening. A leading caucus of China, Japan, and South Korea, I suggest, could find an authoritative yet non-belligerent approach to the longer term problem. And fittingly it’s their part of the world.

What intrigued me about the “within proper bounds” quote was that the Yi appears not to ban ‘exuberance’ but seeks only to limit it. Does ‘proper’ mean strictly lawful to the Yi, or just appropriate to the situation? I favour the latter view of it.

Peace and best wishes