not, as yet, quite intelligent enough

[autumn]

I am trying to understand this explanation. The idea seems to be somewhat similar to "thought" being compressed like matter is before there is the differentiation necessary for chemical elements. Also, interestingly, seems to be similar to the idea of an "oversoul" in some respects.

This explanation.. that yes, technically, we can know what another person is thinking, because all "thinkers" emerge from the same root of possible thought, and this thought will be replicated throughout time, so the future can be generally understood..in general it's all just going back to the same idea that an interpretation, a reading, takes the general concepts and fleshes out the details, regardless of what they are. Almost like a "prism" understanding, that the details of a specific reality are filtered through the compressed potentials represented in the hexagram. (And of course, by all means correct me if I am mis-interpreting this, because this is different).

But still, there seem to be too many potential variables involved. If this is true, then for any given situation I should be able to apply the general categories of any hexagram to my situation. But there are times when 51 just doesn't fit. You see?

(Now to be chastised for my stupidity in misunderstanding..)

 

[Trojina]

(thanks lightangel, got there in the end)

 

[luz]

Maybe they are supposed to send the answer via e-mail?
It took me a while to find the 'submit' button and then it told me my answer had been submitted, and that it might take a while for me to get my e-mail... a looooooooooong while, because I didn't get to enter my e-mail address anywhere
But this experiment is a lot of fun..

 

[bruce_g]

(water pistol humor)

View attachment 64

 

[Trojina]

Frustrating we won't know the results of the experiment, shame theres no simple way to duplicate it here. I was quite certain which answer was the 'right' one, hmm probably wrong then.

 

[luz]

It would be really nice to know, but I like that.. I like having to choose which one is the right answer...
We could be very wrong, but it makes you think a little bit..
It's also interesting that they make you think about something else when they cast the wrong answer.. maybe you can find the right one by elimination, I mean, the thinking of something else is bound to produce an 'answer' to that. It's like two questions and two answers and figuring out which is which.. unless you don't believe you get an answer unless you ask a specific question..

 

[lightofreason]

I am trying to understand this explanation. The idea seems to be somewhat similar to "thought" being compressed like matter is before there is the differentiation necessary for chemical elements. Also, interestingly, seems to be similar to the idea of an "oversoul" in some respects.

Well done - your intuition is working well and you are starting to 'get it' but just using your terms (and thats fine since we are dealing with different metaphors describing the SAME thing)

To flesh this out a bit more:

In the analysis of self-referencing of dichotomies the main type of dichotomy appears to be asymmetric such that the 'differentiating' element emerges from the integrating element. From the IC perspective, yang, as representing ACTUALISATION, works on patterns in yin serving as POTENTIALS.

The set of POSSIBLE potentials is determined by the methodology in deriving those potentials - i.e. self-referencing of differentiate/integrate aka yang/yin. Thus the standard hexagram forms come out of self-referencing to 2^6 distinctions (and so 64 hexagrams).

Move to 2^12 and we are dealing with higher precision - dodecagrams manifest as hexagrams with changing lines. - note the instinctive compression nature of this in that 6 moving lines are easier to deal with than 12 fixed lines. This is something missed in the traditional material where we are not dealing with 6 lines as we are with 64 possible line combinations (and so one hexagram 'contains' 64 dodecagrams of information - most of which has not yet been delt with but we are getting there! ;-)) - OR - patterns of constructive/destructive wave interferences (and so still 64 expressions etc - see my page http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveInterpret.html )

The point here is that the asymmetric format of the dichotomies, and the self-referencing of such, reflects de-compression/compression dynamics and this IS manifest in one of the dichotomies referenced in the context of information decoding/encoding - RNA/DNA.

The generic properties/methods that come out of self-referencing differentiate/integrate are isomorphic to those that come out of the dynamics of RNA/DNA where the particular gene, in RNA format, is cut n pasted out of elements of the DNA where DNA serves as a storage mechanism.

There is also a reverse process that allows for RNA to be transcribed into DNA to 'refine' or add local modifications to, the DNA. The gene sequence in the RNA is strongly syntax oriented and so rigidly precise and reflects "XOR" characteristics, there is no 'middle' as such, all is RIGHT or WRONG - this reflects the isomorphism to positive feedback dynamics (All or nothing, high or low, no middle - and so the realm of differentiating is very exclusive OR). In DNA the rigour is there but the cut n paste allows for 'variations on a theme' and gets into context-sensitive processes in gene creation.

BTW this dynamic also reflects properties of singular/particular-general in that our consciousness stems from integration of relationships ( and so differentiates and acts to mediate - as a gene does when transcribed to a protein chain via a decoder - the ribosome)

Given the IDM-identified ubiquitous nature of asymmetric dichotomies, if we zoom-up to our brains and our sensory system management, this RNA/DNA, XOR/AND, relationship continues and is best experienced in viewing sensory paradox - see the examples in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html

Furthermore, the XOR logic operator is a fundamental operator in encryption processes where we seek to reduce redundancies for the sake of (a) security and/or (b) energy conservation. - IOW we seek to compress information into as smallest space as possible and then use decoding to extract some particular - just as RNA/DNA work.

IN observing this dynamic in paradox processing, and the isomorphism with the differentiate/integrate dichotomy present in the dichotomies of RNA/DNA, XOR/AND, Left-brain/Right-brain, front-brain/back-brain, surface-brain/core-brain etc etc etc so it occured to me that the brain extracts PARTS from a complex whole using XOR.- IOW it uses XOR to decompress, decode, etc. I then applied this to the I Ching and it appears to work. This is, BTW, to me, a MAJOR discovery on the properties and methods of self-referencing and is covered in the page http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/properties.html as it is covered for the IC in such pages as http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html (the original IC 'discovery' was more noticing a pattern of meaning for each hexagram when 'flipping' the top and bottom lines - covered in the old ddiamond website - working more with IDM brought this back to my attention and so the XOR focus was shown to be present in the IC)

The application of XOR to the hexagrams has been done before, ALL logic operators have been applied by various people, but no one asked the right question as to what the resulting hexagram ment. From the IDM work on self-referencing and paradox processing in the brain we have discovered what XOR means.

Combined with this sense of the IC being the "WHOLE" and all else are perceived as 'parts' but are more so the whole re-configured to look a certain way given a certain context, comes supporting material of recent research into foreground/background processing in our brains where it is indicated that the 'whole' we experience consciously is but a part of that experienced unconsciously - see comments and references in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/wavedicho.html

Thus in IC+ the 'whole' for any moment is ALL hexagrams where the LOCAL context then sorts that order of 64 into a 'best-fit/worst-fit' ordering (sequence).

Our uneducated singular nature cannot deal with more than 5 to 7 +/- 2 things at once and so will not explicitly sense all 64 - it is in fact more attracted to the 'best fit' and random/miraculous method have been used to derive that fit - IC+ shows a better way, a more consistant way to not only derive the 'best fit' but the whole sequence of 64 hexagrams applicable ( - change resolution and this covers trigram orders or dodecagram orders as well)

Given the PART/WHOLE nature of XOR/AND, so the WHOLE of the IC is encoded in EACH (as ALL DNA is present in EACH cell where LOCAL CONTEXT determines cell expression - cancer being an example of a loss of linkage/recognition of that local context) - this part/whole dynamic reflects the associated dichotomy of metonymy/metaphor where our consciousness will interpret parts as if wholes. This generalisation is a property of induction (particular-to-general) and that is useful but also a source of paradox.

This internal coding of whole in parts allows us, for the first time, to extract a GENERAL description of a hexagram through XOR-ing it with all of the others; IOW we can get the IC to describe itself. Thus 'flipping' the top and bottom lines of a hexagram is akin to XOR-ing the hexagram with hexagram 27. Hex 27, IN GENERAL, covers infrastructure issues - it covers warnings about what you put into this new structure and in so doing shows what that skeletal form is. Thus, as the IC is the whole and the hexagrams its parts, so each hexagram is a whole and we can extract ITS parts using XOR. Since the IC is the language of use, the descriptions of parts is made by ANALOGY to other hexagrams (we see here the roots of all languages where the finite symbolism is supposed to describe 'all there is' and so the potentially infinite - thus all symbols do 'double duty' as literal expressions and as sources of analogy/metaphor)

Still with me? ;-)

As for 51 not fitting - it will ALWAYS fit, but it may be in the 'worst fit' when compared to the others and so the 64th 'harmonic' and so ignorable overall, but there will be some small aspect that will contribute to the whole interpretation.

I will let you ponder the above before going on into 'resonance' issues that can allow, in general, for one to be fully empathic with another.

Chris.

 

[autumn]

How to find out if you chose the right reading

(Chris, I'll read that when I get a little bit of time to concentrate)

There's a pop up that tells you if you chose the primary reading (the real one) or the reserved reading (old one). I chose the right one twice in a row,( but you have to make sure that you know the answer to the question you asked, or of course, how will you know what the right reading will look like,)

http://home.comcast.net/~3bris/reading.html

 

[luz]

Ah maybe we just need to enable pop ups on this site or something..

 

[martin]

Well done - your intuition is working well and you are starting to 'get it' ..

I will let you ponder the above before going on into 'resonance' issues that can allow, in general, for one to be fully empathic with another.

Holy Moses!
Grandpa Chris addresses Autumn as if she is a child of 5 years old, look how incredibly empathic he has become by practising IDM!

Your move, Chris ...

 

[bruce_g]

Holy Moses!
Grandpa Chris addresses Autumn as if she is a child of 5 years old, look how incredibly empathic he has become by practising IDM!

LOL! Yes, but let's give credit where it's due. That's the first time I've heard Chris say "and thats fine since we are dealing with different metaphors describing the SAME thing"

 

[autumn]

And to be treated like a five year old when I've just now turned six and a half...

 

[autumn]

Ah maybe we just need to enable pop ups on this site or something..

After you get to that page where you get the strange message about them emailing you results when they never asked you for your email address, close that window and go back to the experiment. Then hit "continue", and you get the pop up with the results.

 

[luz]

Thank you Autumn, will try that!

 

[annisan]

that's insulting - what are you doing on this site then?

In other words Chris/Lightofreason says:

The people who consult the I Ching (and that is most of the people who visit this website), are:

STUPID.​

my title says it all. Peace - out

 

[pocossin]

Annisan, Chris Lofting is deceased. You can find my attempt at an introduction to his system here:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=12878
Chris Lofting's System

 

[Sparhawk]

I can actually picture Chris giving the one finger salute from beyond the grave...

 

[Trojina]

I can actually picture Chris giving the one finger salute from beyond the grave...

Hey I think that actually was Chris giving the one finger salute from beyond the grave.

I've noticed how its pretty uncanny how every so often some newbie will resurrect an ancient conversation with Martin or Chris. Now what makes them do that ? They don't tend to resurrect ancient conversations in the same way with other living members.

I know a number of times people have had to be told Martin is dead...people who have just picked up on something he said and replied even though the thread is years old.


I reckon our departed members just use a suitable newbies neurological equipment to pass messages on to us. They are just saying 'hi' thats all.

 

[Trojina]

I guess if Chris is communicating he knows by now theres a spirit world and we aren't all computing brains. Martin is laughing saying 'told ya so' and Chris wants to add something to this thread so he utilises the neural pathways of 'annisan' whos a damn fine channel





its good that they are in touch

 

[sooo]

Shortly after Chris departed I asked, what is he experiencing now? 21.6-51 Lot of possible ramifications. I didn't think it was appropriate to share it then. Several months later asked, what is he experiencing now? 30

Maybe it's not the middle finger but a peace sign he flashes now. Maybe in place of refusal to hear there is acceptance and conditional dependence.

 

[chingching]

He certainly wasnt afraid of having an opinion. This is a great thread, I love nicki_p's response. Despite CLofting's disdain for pretty much everyone else POV, his conviction is impressive. But maybe I only admire that because my mind changes every 30 secs.

but wasnt annison pointing out ewald's comment, not lightofreason's...

 

[Tohpol]

Shortly after Chris departed I asked, what is he experiencing now? 21.6-51 Lot of possible ramifications. I didn't think it was appropriate to share it then. Several months later asked, what is he experiencing now? 30

Maybe it's not the middle finger but a peace sign he flashes now. Maybe in place of refusal to hear there is acceptance and conditional dependence.

That's so interesting.

I imagine it would have taken a fair amount of adjustment for Chris to be confronted with these realities of Death and consciousness coming home to roost. 21.6 > 51 is exactly what I would have imagined bless 'im. But now 30: Clarity.

Despite how maddening he could be I do miss his contributions- they had real value.

 

[hilary]

And this - the 30 - reminds me of something I learned at college. I was engaged in vigorous metaphysical debate with a science student who declared herself an atheist. Really putting all my bright shiny 18-year-old faculties to work, trying to get her at least to the point of conceding that she couldn't know there was nothing more. No, no luck, no nothing, not hearing, not budging an inch, nothing doing, do not pass 'go', might as well be talking to the wall.

Then she talked instead about how she felt about what is real, about science and reality and the knowable whole... and suddenly light bulbs came on for me everywhere and I realised she was talking about the same experience I was talking about. Only we were so different that neither of us could possibly recognise that it was the same.

So yes... maybe Chris is experiencing exactly how perfectly right he always was.

Meanwhile in Reading Circle someone's asking Martin for some examples, and I need to answer an email from someone who's disconcerted to find a friend request from Lloyd. Pretty sure everyone's around here somewhere.

 

[sooo]

and suddenly light bulbs came on for me everywhere and I realised she was talking about the same experience I was talking about. Only we were so different that neither of us could possibly recognise that it was the same.

So yes... maybe Chris is experiencing exactly how perfectly right he always was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin
Holy Moses!
Grandpa Chris addresses Autumn as if she is a child of 5 years old, look how incredibly empathic he has become by practising IDM!

LOL! Yes, but let's give credit where it's due. That's the first time I've heard Chris say "and thats fine since we are dealing with different metaphors describing the SAME thing"

 

[hilary]

 

[water 0n earth]

Chris is awesome! He has a great way of thinking but too bad he never get a chance to learn the real I Ching like he supposed to.

His signature is Chris; Ch = 2 = ☱; ris = 3 = ☲, 2+3 equal 5 the Changing line.

☱
☲ Hexagram 49 Cach (gé), Revolution, changing, looking at thing in a different way... Internal Li is knowledge, intelligent, good heart, unbound; External Dui is joyous, happy, also a mouth, tough speech, argument, sharp tongue.

☳
☲ Hexagram 55 Phong ((fēng), abounding, fullness, progress, improvement, advancement of knowledge...

This is a name of an intelligent, good heart man and likes to change, moving forward to progress and advancement of knowledge. For those who like to improve or progress will love to read his materials and does not matter it is wrong or right, it is the readers benefit. For those do not like to change for better will hate the way he talks (☱). However, to him the more he talks the more he learn (☱) is changing to (☳) External Wood feeds Internal Fire (☲) which is he - himself. That is why he loves to share his ideas.

The bad thing is Chris picks a terrible nick Lightofreason, which is true for him when he reasons he see the light but Lighto = 6 = ☵, freason = 7 = ☶; 6+7 = 13/6 = 1 is the Changing line.

☵
☶ Hexagram 39 Kiển (Jian); limping, obstruction, stuck, goes nowhere...
☵
☲ Hexgram 63 Ký Tế ( (jì jì); already complete, little success, minor success or success with little thing...

He is facing great obstruction, limping back and forth with little success to get the point across.

If I were him I would pick Light Of Reason. It then becomes Hexagram 20 - viewing, contemplating... changing line 1 to Hexagram 42 - augmenting, benefiting... (20.1 to 42).

A name of a person, a signature, or a nick is no accident. It tells a lot about a person if we want to know.

Water 0n Earth

 

[Sparhawk]

Hey, try "Elvis"!! Try "Elvis"!!!

That was another one of his nicknames (he had like four or five, over the years, at last count). Seriously, are we going to analyze Chris, as a person and his understanding of the Yijing and comment about it when he's not here to "comment" back? I don't care how fancy or elaborate or how pretty the numerological pIay is. I've seen, pretty much, what's out there already. I am glad it works for you but don't think, for a second, that it is "how it should be done, you all!". I try hard to keep my peace but I already have to stomach Yi Messiah down in Chile that thinks his "way" is THE WAY and that he's paving the path for the Second Coming with a Jesus Christ sporting a Bagua in his tunic (and believe me, he's as much of a "Yijing Master" as they come)...

Let's stick to readings and interpretations for and about the living, please.

 

[water 0n earth]

SparHawk,

I am very disappointed that with all the years you have learned I Ching and still ask me a very funny question of Chris other nicks. As you know that if you have no reason to ask Yi you just DON'T. When you need to know then you ask! Sometimes using his name, nick, license plate, or even a sentence when he speaks... There are uncountable ways to cast a Hexagram!

For instant, now I want to know SparHawk - Luis Andrade compare to Chris; Spar = 4, Hawk = 4.
Hexagram 51.2 changing to 54. You can look at the general meaning of the two Hexes. (And I believe you are still living)

Now I want to know more about your Signature Luis Andrade, Luis = 4 = ☳, Andrade = 7 = ☶.

☳
☶ Hex 62; Small Exceeding, preponderance of the small, and small surpassing...
☷
☶ Hex 15; Khien is humbling, modesty...

Being Humble - small progress, small surpass... (do not want to change much), compare to Chris changing constantly for great progress!

Water 0n Earth

 

[Sparhawk]

SparHawk,

I am very disappointed that with all the years you have learned I Ching and still ask me a very funny question of Chris other nicks.

No, that wasn't a request, that was sarcasm. I suppose it was lost in translation, somewhere.

As you know that if you have no reason to ask Yi you just DON'T. When you need to know then you ask!

I certainly agree with the underlined. So, who asked you to inquire the Yijing about me, even if you are not "asking" but using other methods to tag hexagrams to me? Did you have the "need" to do so? I remember a couple of instances, in this forum, when people inquired and tried to use the Yijing (and other mantic methods) to put me publicly on the spot...

 

[sooo]

Lu is an-drade spar hawk = Luis is an android eater.

(as translated from ancient new age universal secret code of the wacky weed cult)

And don't deny it either! It's infullabull.