ominous lines

[el_2]

I recently got hex 47, moving lines 2 and 3 regarding a situation. However, I'm not seeking help with interpretation here. It just made me wonder (as I've wondered on various occasions in the past) about ominous lines. I'm thinking about 47.3 in particular (as well as other particularly ominous lines I might have got in the past).

My question is this: do you think that if one gets this or any other ominous line, s/he can take it as a warning not to go there at all because of the consequences stated or that this is it, there's nothing you can do about it, it will happen no matter what?

What I think is that, of course, when you get such a moving line, there are serious problems, obstructions etc that should not be lightly dismissed but still you can heed the warning and change your course. This does not mean that you'll necessarily achieve what you hope for, after all there are problems surrounding the situation, but that there's at least some room for manoeuvre there. Additionally, when on the other hand you get a really positive moving line as an answer, this doesn't necessarily mean that what it describes will materialize -just that there's a lot of potential there.

But all this is basically theoretical. I'd be interested to know what other people's experiences are re. not only this line but other ominous lines too. What I find a bit distressing is not the ominous lines per se but the possibility that the whole thing may operate as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I felt the need to post this message now because I got 47.2,3, fine, I didn't expect something easy, I'm aware of the difficulties I'm facing and of the fact that they may not be resolved, but I don't feel I have a broken spirit, I don't feel depressed about the situation, so I thought, what the heck, I'll just not be like 47.3 - I'll take it as a warning.

But as I noted at the beginning of this post, my enquiry here is about ominous lines in general. I hope to get some insight from more experienced users of the Yi than myself.

What do you think?

el_2

 

[Trojina]

I think its important to remeber to scale your answer down to the size of your question - or rather scale your interpretation down. I often see people ask a relatively minor question, well not life and death stuff you know, and because the imagery in the lines is pretty dramatic they suddenly think they are dealing with something with huge consequences. It really took me a long time to understand this myself and many commentaries really don't help saying things like "something wonderful is about to happen" etc which is just silly to take literally as if you are asking about replanting your rosebush lol then the scale of the wonder, well it may be nice but its not earth shatteringly stupendous.

Take a look in the shared readings area and you see people build mighty mountains out of molehills by not scaling the answer to the size of the question.

47.3 is indeed a pretty desolate line I agree but mostly the nub of the message is simply advice not to rely on what is unreliable - it isn't a portent of eternal misery...only in your hour of need you may seek out support in places where there is none.

 

[heylise]

What would you answer yourself if someone asks you for advice?

For example, someone asks if she can go ahead to a place three blocks away in a very busy town. She comes from a tiny village. You can answer "if you don't watch out carefully for the traffic you will be run over".
Or you say "if you take care and look to both sides before crossing, you will arrive safe and sound".

Is one answer ominous and the other full of promise? Or are they just two ways to answer the same question. Of course you can tell her both. "If you don't watch out carefully for the traffic you will be run over, but if you take care and look to both sides before crossing, you will arrive safe and sound". But usually that is not necessary at all.

Some hexagrams talk about easy times and some about hard times, but both are just good advice for that specific situation. "How to reanimate a person" is not more ominous than "How to raise pigs". It is just that the moment when you need it is more demanding.

LiSe

 

[Sparhawk]

It just occurred to me that, for the most part, the Yi is a giant pinball machine. The seemingly random happenings in our life and surroundings are partially controlled by us: moving the machine; pressing the flipper buttons; hitting pop bumpers; dropping targets and scoring points. The fate part of it is the slanted ramp, with pits to both score points and to loose balls (no pun intended). Yi lines like 47.3 are major pop bumpers that can lead a ball/subject directly to the well at the bottom of the ramp or we may have the opportunity to hit the flippers and keep playing that ball and thus the ramp and score more points. There is always a chance that the ball will fly directly to the pit or that we may tilt the machine too much and loose the game altogether. Here is where fate and skillfull control of a situation meet and blur the lines between them...

 

[bradford]

all lines are ominous. that's the point.
the root of the word is omen-ous

 

[fa gong]

Though I doubt I'm a more experienced user than yourself, I have a few thoughts that leap to mind. I hope, as a junior member, I am not too presumptuous :bows:

My question is this: do you think that if one gets this or any other ominous line, s/he can take it as a warning not to go there at all because of the consequences stated or that this is it, there's nothing you can do about it, it will happen no matter what?

The question as to whether you can take any advice or prophecy or precognition as a warning is the easy part. Of course, you can. But, as your question suggests, the point is really rather a matter of whether you should.

I once heard an astrologer say that it is important we don't get too constrained by what "the fates" may have in store for us (assuming we believe they have anything in mind anyway). The phrase she used was simply that "the stars impel, they do not compel".

Another way of looking at it might be similar to a situation where the weatherman tells you it will rain today. Is the issue about going out or staying in? Or is the issue about whether or not you will go out and do what you were going to do anyway, but just be prepared to get wet. Take an umbrella, or don't wear your best suede

Always remembering, that good judgement comes from experience, but experience only comes from bad judgement! A matter of trial and error. Perhaps the valuable lesson isn't in what the Yi tells you, but rather, how you respond and how, over time, you learn from the ramifications of those responses.

But all this is basically theoretical. I'd be interested to know what other people's experiences are re. not only this line but other ominous lines too. What I find a bit distressing is not the ominous lines per se but the possibility that the whole thing may operate as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think that the risk of creating the self-fulfilling prophecy increases in direct proportion to the degree that you hand over your "power" to the direction or advice of the Yi. If you do create some negative situation based on a "fear" generated by a divination (the self-fulfilling prophecy), then perhaps the Yi has been given a power it should not have. On the other hand, perhaps your own self-created problem was already taken into account by the Yi!

Is it fair, though, to suggest that your question finally ends up revolving around the broader issue of "fate" versus "free will"? Is an ominous line fated to be, without means of modification or recourse? Is it possible to work around an "infallible decree" of an ominous line? Does an ominous line indicate an immovable situation, or is it simply the self-created "fear" of that situation that causes any eventual difficulty?

Excuse the meandering as I think out loud, and also the fact that I tend to find that the best questions only lead to more questions

Amitofo!:bows:

Fa Gong

 

[bradford]

As a general rule of thumb I'd have to say that going into a reading with a preconception that any particular line, or hexagram, is heavy, ominous, bad or negative - or lucky, happy, good or positive - is a really bad way to do things. You should clear you mind of all of these preconceptions and instead try to relate the words of the oracle directly to the specific question you asked.

 

[el_2]

Well, you people have put down some very interesting thoughts on the matter.

I don't have much time to respond as I'd like now - maybe later in the day. Just a couple of points perhaps.

Another line that comes to my mind, which is not gloomy but predicts an unfortunate outcome, is 43.6. Is the situation it describes inevitable? I can't remember the exact wording of the line right now but I remember it is stated in a matter-of-fact kind of way (by Wilhelm) while other lines predicting unfortunate outcomes are formulated more as an advice not to go there because of the consequences. I should add that when I look at other interpretations of the two lines I've mentioned (or of any other such lines) the phrasing points more to an advice and less to something that is unavoidable. Still, I'm puzzled.

As for the self-fulfilling prophecy thing, I agree with Fa Gong that it depends on how you use the oracle. I personally don't think that I have to follow every advice I'm given - I use the Yi more as a way of trying to understand the dynamics of a situation and it is wonderful in that respect. And I usually try to follow the advice. But when you get a line like 47.3 when your 'spirit is not broken', well, it affects you internally to some extent, doesn't it? In such situations, I try to see different angles or different ways to interpret the same line but then I start wondering if I'm not being deluded and only want to get the most positive take on the line I can. I think then that it comes down again to the question of being open when you consult the Yi. But it's hard sometimes because we are not purely rational beings not affected by our emotions and wishes.

OK. To sum up perhaps. I believe that it is more a matter of how you respond to the answers you get and that within certain limits there are always things you can do -basically because this agrees more with my disposition. But the inevitable still puzzles me.

BTW, no one has mentioned any experience counteracting the ominous message of a line due to his/her response to the situation.

el_2

 

[fa gong]

Another line that comes to my mind, which is not gloomy but predicts an unfortunate outcome, is 43.6. Is the situation it describes inevitable?

Bringing us back to the big question. Fate or free will? To answer the question of whether a prophecy is inevitable demands an answer to another question first. That being, is the future/fate/karma set in stone and unchangeable? The former question depends on the answer to the latter.


BTW, no one has mentioned any experience counteracting the ominous message of a line due to his/her response to the situation.


Allow me to be entirely TOO pompous and maybe answer that with the Bard's most famous quote ... (and a direct response to just such a question).

To be, or not to be, that is the Question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them

You can accept the vagaries of fate, and get either a great or disastrous outcome. Or, you can "take arms" against them ... and still get either a great or disastrous outcome!

Either way works, and/or doesn't. The point is more ... what is "nobler in mind"?

Again, another question

Amitofo! :bows:

Fa Gong

 

[meng]

This is an enjoyable thread!

Luis, your pinball imagery is interesting to think about. I occasionally play the Windows XL version, as a sort of meditation devise - observing the degree of attachment/detachment, finding the sweet spot between caring and indifference, and how that mindset effects the score. I can see the association you're making with interpreting the IC. And I think it's relevant to el_2's questions.

LiSe's example is the kind you can fold up, stick in your pocket or wallet, and carry with you everywhere.

The thing I've learned about the intensity of a reading is to find the middle of it, and work from there. W/B is especially notorious for dramatizing, often doing nothing more stirring a tempest in a teapot, getting us all worked up for nothing. At the same time, minimizing every aspect of the reading will overlook a great deal of potential for deeper insight, and it may possibly fail to avert a pitfall.

The exaggeration of images are what provides us the room to find our specific meaning. How big or small the image is is pretty much left to us to determine. I remember, once getting so completely bent out of shape over receiving 2.6, that I made it, as Fa Gong mentioned, a self fulfilling prophecy. But, that said, a line may indeed forewarn, if not foretell, a life changing or life ending event.

 

[el_2]

"I think its important to remeber to scale your answer down to the size of your question - or rather scale your interpretation down. I often see people ask a relatively minor question, well not life and death stuff you know, and because the imagery in the lines is pretty dramatic they suddenly think they are dealing with something with huge consequences."

I've realized that because I often cast hexagrams for the day and I've become aware of the fact that the proportions of the answer may differ. So you've got to take this into account.

"W/B is especially notorious for dramatizing, often doing nothing more stirring a tempest in a teapot, getting us all worked up for nothing."
Yes, I find that W/B aids understanding a lot because it is so evocative but it may make you overdramatize things when there's no need to do so.

As for the Yi predicting the inevitable (or not), recently I drew 25.1,3 (it was a hexagram I'd cast for the day) and I was puzzled by what I perceived to be conflicting advice because 25.3, I think, may urge you to be on the alert for something. Anyway, as the day unfolded it came to a point when I though, this is it, and now I'll have to decide whether I'll be the "citizen" or the "wanderer". I opted for the latter and I'm glad I did so. If I hadn't got 25.3 I might have let things unfold on a wait-and-see basis but, having received the line, I decided to act. So there's an accurate prediction - but the oracle gives you the choice in 25.3, doesn't it?

el_2

 

[meng]

but the oracle gives you the choice in 25.3, doesn't it?

I'm sure there's time when it could/would offer a choice. But again, the specifics may vary widely. The last example of this line, that I recall, was when when a merchant accidentally marked the price of an item lower than it was supposed to be sold for, and someone quickly purchased the item. The merchant's loss was the shopper's gain. But if upon receiving 25.3, you become especially mindful of this type of situation, then you may be in a better position to make a choice.

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis, your pinball imagery is interesting to think about. I occasionally play the Windows XL version, as a sort of meditation devise - observing the degree of attachment/detachment, finding the sweet spot between caring and indifference, and how that mindset effects the score. I can see the association you're making with interpreting the IC. And I think it's relevant to el_2's questions.

Perhaps Elton John and The Who may help the imagery a bit...

 

[lorrainep]

"W/B is especially notorious for dramatizing, often doing nothing more stirring a tempest in a teapot, getting us all worked up for nothing."

Yes, I find that W/B aids understanding a lot because it is so evocative but it may make you overdramatize things when there's no need to do so.
el_2

But what if the idea of a question is, "If I stay on this particular trajectory, what is the outcome?" and you get a frightening image, and you therefore adjust your course of action. Then you won't know how bad it could have been, and the image wasn't overdramatic.

 

[fkegan]

Omnious lines in oracles and actual results...

The objective question becomes how long does the momentum or connection between an oracle and your situation casting the oracle last? In general, the answer from either Yi studies or traditional physics is the same--until something brings new forces to bear to make a change.

Often simply casting the oracle and thinking about it brings a change of conditions, sometimes they just happen over time.

As to personal examples. I visited a friend who was recovering from a severe beating and mugging. He mentioned he had cast the oracle, but didn't bother to read it thinking he would go out and buy snacks first. On his way he was mugged. When he got out of the hospital and got back to his Wilhelm and read his oracle it was a set of ominous lines which he interpreted as telling him not to go out.

For myself, I cast an oracle about a trip planned for the following weekend, it was a delightful oracle reading. However, by the time the weekend came, plans changed and it became impossible to take the trip with the people as planned. I asked the oracle what happened to the lovely oracle and the Yi replied noting that things change.

The two ominous lines you ask about are particularly of the advice rather than the premonition type. Hex 47.3 speaks of having a terrible attitude which is being allowed to run amok which causes bad results. Clearly there is a strong implication that one should reconsider your attitude and conduct, not just let your mood carry you away to bad results.

Hex 43.6 similarly speaks of a highly successful situation which is only ominous if one then becomes oblivious and doesn't notice problems still unresolved until they grow overwhelming. Not so much an ominous line in itself as a line of warning if you don't pay better attention and attend to things.

Returning to your original reference, the oracle of hex 47.2,3 >>31 doesn't have any truly ominous lines or bad components however, it does require a lot more attention to yourself and your attitude.

Posting the abstract issue of the certainty of ominous oracle lines happening seems an excellent example of the poor attitude running amok being described and if continued would likely bring bad results.

Good Luck.

Frank

 

[el_2]

"You've picked a good example here. The smart answer, of course, is that it depends whether you're consulting before or after. This line often crops up after the disaster has just happened. But if you're lucky, you may get it before (not that lucky, of course, to get it at all). Can you avoid it? Well, if you're good you can, but many times you can't. Remember, this line is about a disaster that arises because of a lack of vigilance. You can't suddenly make good a lack of vigilance, so actually many times this line is describing an inevitability."

Based on my limited experience, I agree. When I got this line, the way things transpired, I realized that there's was little if anything I could have done - it was too late, I hadn't been vigilant enough when I was supposed to. Hence the question about inevitability. I take notes of the answers I get and what actually happens afterwards, unfortunately I don't have my notes with me right now, but I associated 43.6 with 24.6 that I had previously received as an answer re. the same issue (it wasn't the same question and I got 43.6 at some point later in time). Too late in both cases - 43.6 was referring to my having missed the point of return. Well, at least this is how I understood it after events had unfolded and sat down and thought about what had happened in relation to the answers. But what you've said Twilight helps me a lot - I hadn't been vigilant enough - top lines, often too late. The answer makes more sense now.

Funny thing, yesterday I asked a question about the same issue that has been puzzling me, the one I got 47.2,3 for an answer. It was a different question, of course. It is an overall situation and I tried to break it down to smaller parts, different aspects, in order to understand the situation better. Anyway, I got 47.3 this time. This is how I interpreted it this time in a nutshell: "You're getting too worked up about this issue. This leads you nowhere. Enough already. You've already received very auspicious answers about the situation (43 unchanging and 15.3,5), getting so worked up about it and not trusting that things will turn out fine is not good for you. Do it! Don't be hesitant."

I don't know if people agree with this interpretation but it was a moment of insight when I got it (47.3 for the second time I mean) so I'll go with my hunch. So now what I'll have to think about is what the hell 47.2 might mean -but I'll try not to think too hard.

I'm so excited about having rediscovered the Yi that I often ask questions just to have a reason to use the Oracle. And it is so interesting to read about how other people approach it or about their experiences. Thanks for sharing.

el_2

 

[mudpie]

There are certain disastrous lines that the oracle seems to like to hand out to repeat questioners when it has had enough of them. Effectively saying: 'Go away and chew on that, you stupid idiot.'

LOL. unfortunately, I've had my share of those moments.

I do admit a seemingly ominous line gives me the heebie jeebies. (dont consider 47.2.3 very ominous tho) And like many have said, a "disaster" can often turn out to be something like not being able to find my keys.

 

[el_2]

Averting an omen. I like that. Actually, I guess it requires a lot of skill to avert an omen and being mindful that it is not always possible because things have already been set in motion. And I find that the more familiar you get with the Yi, the more able you are to understand and perhaps make good use of the advice given. In the last few months I've been regularly using the Book I've found that I've made enormous progress (I hope I'm not being deluded) and that I have still so much to learn. But I enjoy it. I enjoy it so much that I spend a lot of time trying to understand the different dimensions of the answers or the different perspectives on them. It's a case of 27.4 I guess. (And 27.5 - using the Oracle.)

Leaving really negative lines aside for a moment, I just remembered that once, after I had got an answer to a question and then asked another question to elaborate the first one (fine thus far) and then another question to elaborate on the second answer I got (not so fine anymore), I got 60.3. I thought the Yi was telling me "You are overanalysing things and asking too many questions. Set limits on yourself. Go to bed and get some sleep". Which I did.

el_2

 

[el_2]

That's very interesting Twilight. As with everything people have written in this thread. It has made a lot of things clearer for me. As a newbie, thank you guys.

el_2